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Billzfan23

Is this the best receiving corp since Peerless Price and Eric Moulds?

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Bottom line ... sans the K Gun teams ... can't rate anything WR wise for the Bills given the QB carousel of the last 20+ years .. hopefully Josh changes that not just this year but years to come and then we can make said comparison.  You can see this in recent history when WR's left the team and been more productive (Woods, Goodwin, etc.).

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2 minutes ago, Putin said:

Maybe because we were missing the most important piece ? At the most important position !

 

Excuse me, but how do we know that the Bills aren't STILL "missing the most important piece"?  Allen hasn't proven that he's can even be a low level competent NFL QB at this point.  Taylor was at least that.  

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Just now, SoTier said:

 

The OP was talking about the Bills' WR corps not individuals.  He ignored the fact that in 2016 the Bills had 3 good NFL WRs on the roster who were significantly better individually and collectively than the Bills current WRs.  As other posters mentioned, in 2015, the Bills had an even better WR corps because they also had Hogan.

It’s yet to be determined if the 2016 WR Corp was better then this years 

will find out soon enough 

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Just now, SoTier said:

 

Excuse me, but how do we know that the Bills aren't STILL "missing the most important piece"?  Allen hasn't proven that he's can even be a low level competent NFL QB at this point.  Taylor was at least that.  

If Tyrod was a competent QB then why isn’t he starting for another team in a league that desperately needs starting QBs. Forgive me for the old school reference but Tyrod was nothing more than a modern version of Marlin Briscoe.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Excuse me, but how do we know that the Bills aren't STILL "missing the most important piece"?  Allen hasn't proven that he's can even be a low level competent NFL QB at this point.  Taylor was at least that.  

No we don’t know ! But what we do know is that Taylor was NOT going to get any better actually he regressed ( from his first year as a starter ) Allen on the other hand showed some promise last year without OL , running game , or a competent WR Corp 

Edited by Putin
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I want to see some packages with Brown, Foster, Beasley, Knox, and Singletary.  Brown and Foster will open up everything.  We know Allen has the arm, defenses must respect that.  I am picturing Beasley, Knox, and Singletary finding soft spots underneath

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9 hours ago, CommonCents said:

I don’t understand the discussion. This is the equivalent of me becoming a porn star because all the other applicants were midgets. 

 

Who exactly are these guys better than? Stevie Johnson and Roscoe Parrish? 

I see you watched my most reason film, “ Half man, ALL fun”

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WR is actually the only position group that I'm really worried about. I don't feel like we have a WR on this roster that you really have to game plan for. I'm hoping someone steps up during TC and pre season but I'm not sure that's going to happen. I will try and stay optimistic about this group but I just see a bunch of mid level number 2's.

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1 hour ago, Niagara Bill said:

Wow. This thread has a lot of revisionist history.  Moulds was at best a good receiver not great. Watkins was at best an average over hyped over paid receiver not even good. Price was average. Johnson was good not great.

Reed was great. HOF GREAT.

Lofton was great.

I want to start with, I know this is subjective. Here's my take: Moulds was way better than just good. I would even say, trade Moulds for Reed on that team and Moulds is in the HOF. No doubt. I didn't say he was better than Reed, different circumstances, but that dude was a stud. Moulds on that team would have been scary good. Reed had Kelly, the K Gun and a team with HOF's all around. Moulds had Kelly in Kelly's last year in the NFL. Bledsoe came in 6 years after Kelly retired. That's a long time with mediocre to bad QB play for Moulds(Todd Collins,Van Pelt, Flutie, and Rob Johnson). Moulds was way better than just good and under the circumstances, bordering great to me.

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11 hours ago, Bangarang said:

They haven't even played a game yet...

 

Then they are definitely the best.

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8 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

He only had 8 catches in 12 games his first year. He had 2 respectable years, but idk if I'd agree with thriving for 4 years. He did get a lot of TDs though. I think he gets held in a higher esteem because he was in the right place at the right time here. 

He was extremely good and effective here in those two years. Defenses respected him a lot and he made a ton of big plays. The guys who are thought of as good or valuable and who really werent were Beebe and MacKellar. Beebe did next to nothing for the snaps that he got. You could say that teams had to respect his speed and I am a believer in that but they didnt play the Bills that way, like shade a safety over all the time because they worried about Beebe, they worried about Lofton (after Andre of course).

 

It's also very, very hard to look at a WR corps at as a whole in retrospect just looking at rosters unless you spend a lot of time on context. Some guys are hurt or old or too young or not playing or the offense didnt feature them or they didnt explode until their fifth year or whatever.

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14 hours ago, Billzfan23 said:

Yeah, we’ve had individual studs like Lee Evans, Stevie Johnson, Sammy Watkins, and even T.O. but is this the best overall mix?

 

 

I fail to understand why people still hold to the fallacy that Sammy Watkins was a”stud” receiver.  His stats never upheld the hype. 

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8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Watkins

Woods

Harvin

Hogan

Goodwin

 

Harvin was a "cup of coffee" due to injury, but looking at what Woods Hogan and Goodwin have done elsewhere....yeah.

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3 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

WR is actually the only position group that I'm really worried about. I don't feel like we have a WR on this roster that you really have to game plan for. I'm hoping someone steps up during TC and pre season but I'm not sure that's going to happen. I will try and stay optimistic about this group but I just see a bunch of mid level number 2's.

Individually, perhaps not. But Safety’s WILL drop back into single coverage with Brown & Foster on the field. This WILL make slot receivers/RBs/TEs more effective underneath.

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13 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

I don't think streater even made the team last year

Look at Streater 2012-2013 seasons...better than Cole Beasley and similar to John Brown numbers. Kelvin B had better numbers than any of them. So on paper maybe that what turned out to be crappy crew was better. I dont think so but point is that until they play who knows. They are still somewhat questions marks, not like we brought in a A Brown, J Jones, etc. 

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3 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

WR is actually the only position group that I'm really worried about. I don't feel like we have a WR on this roster that you really have to game plan for. I'm hoping someone steps up during TC and pre season but I'm not sure that's going to happen. I will try and stay optimistic about this group but I just see a bunch of mid level number 2's.

 

That could be all right.  It all depends upon how Allen has really progressed in his ability to suss out the weak spot in a D.

 

If Daboll is following a Patriots-like Erhard-Perkins model, the name of the game is scheme guys open, and spread the ball around vs. "just throw it to the Star, he's open every play"

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8 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

I fail to understand why people still hold to the fallacy that Sammy Watkins was a”stud” receiver.  His stats never upheld the hype

 

Once the hype has been established, it tends to stay.  Sammy is on his third team in going on his sixth season in the NFL; that averages two years per team which is not indicative of a "stud receiver."  If he can't be what was expected when he was drafted in 2014, he'll be nothing more than another bust.  He has the opportunity with the Chiefs in the Andy Reid offense and Mahomes as the QB.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Putin said:

No we don’t know ! But what we do know is that Taylor was NOT going to get any better actually he regressed ( from his first year as a starter ) Allen on the other hand showed some promise last year without OL , running game , or a competent WR Corp 

Allen showed promise because of his running ability and status as a rookie 1st round draft pick. If his exact play last season was with Tyrod as QB people would be running him out of town. 

I am all in on the Allen era...but there is still a lot to be desired. His running is what made his 2nd half look so good and that is not sustainable or desired in your franchise QB. Its a nice bonus to have but should not be the strongest quality.

Look at Allen's last 6 games after his injury - less than 50% completion in 2 of 6, multiple picks in 3 of 6, avg about 200 yds per game. Yes exciting to watch but reality check was this was not the QB play we want or need in the long run. He has got to get better. 

Edited by ngbills

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Doubt it. Brown isn't better than Crazy Bob Woods, Stevie Johnson or Sammy Watkins - he's probably closer to Goodwin. 

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4 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

If Tyrod was a competent QB then why isn’t he starting for another team in a league that desperately needs starting QBs. Forgive me for the old school reference but Tyrod was nothing more than a modern version of Marlin Briscoe.

 

Taylor is competent which isn't the same as being a starting caliber QB, and I never said he was starting caliber.  He can come into a game or he can start one -- or more -- and at least give a team a chance to win.  On occasion, he can make some plays that could win games.  We don't know at this point is Allen can do as well. 

 

4 hours ago, Putin said:

No we don’t know ! But what we do know is that Taylor was NOT going to get any better actually he regressed ( from his first year as a starter ) Allen on the other hand showed some promise last year without OL , running game , or a competent WR Corp 

 

Taylor played pretty well as a first year starter, but at some point in his second season as one (2016) he hit the proverbial wall that marked the upper limits of his ability.  That could happen to Allen, too.  I remember that Mark Sanchez looked like he was going to become the Jests' "guy" for the next decade early in his second season, but about midway through, he just stopped developing and never got any better.  This is frequently what happens to first round and second round QBs who play well in their first seasons as starters but never develop into franchise QBs. 

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15 hours ago, Billzfan23 said:

Yeah, we’ve had individual studs like Lee Evans, Stevie Johnson, Sammy Watkins, and even T.O. but is this the best overall mix?

 

It comes down to the QB position. All these WR's have some talent. The difference maker is who is delivering the ball. If Allen takes the next step then we can start to scrutinize the WR's and determine if upgrades and shuffles are necessary going forth. 

In other words need to see the Offense in action through at least the 1st 6 weeks of the season to even start this conversation.. More than likely this is something that needs the whole year and then some just to see if its a conversation worth having

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4 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Taylor is competent which isn't the same as being a starting caliber QB, and I never said he was starting caliber.  He can come into a game or he can start one -- or more -- and at least give a team a chance to win.  On occasion, he can make some plays that could win games.  We don't know at this point is Allen can do as well. 

 

 

Taylor played pretty well as a first year starter, but at some point in his second season as one (2016) he hit the proverbial wall that marked the upper limits of his ability.  That could happen to Allen, too.  I remember that Mark Sanchez looked like he was going to become the Jests' "guy" for the next decade early in his second season, but about midway through, he just stopped developing and never got any better.  This is frequently what happens to first round and second round QBs who play well in their first seasons as starters but never develop into franchise QBs. 

The which QB is better game:

 

Both went 3-3 over last 6 games of their 1st year as a starter:

 

QB1
Compl Att % Yds TD Int Rat Rush Yds TD
21 38 55.3% 291 3 0 106.4 5 46 0
11 21 52.4% 211 3 0 127.2 7 28 1
19 36 52.8% 268 1 1 74.8 8 53 0
16 27 59.3% 235 2 0 112.4 9 79 0
13 18 72.2% 179 0 1 80.6 14 67 0
18 28 64.3% 182 0 0 82.7 10 51 1
98 168 58.3% 1366 9 2   53 324 2
                   
                   
QB2
Compl Att % Yds TD Int Rat Rush Yds TD
8 19 42.1% 160 1 0 89.8 13 99 1
18 33 54.5% 231 2 2 71.7 9 135 0
18 36 50.0% 206 0 2 44.4 9 101 1
13 26 50.0% 204 1 0 89.3 9 16 1
20 41 48.8% 217 1 2 52.6 5 30 0
17 26 65.4% 224 3 1 114.9 9 95 2
94 181 51.9% 1242 8 7   54 476 5

 

 

 

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