Stephon Gilmore - first team AP All-Pro

[Rico]

1 hour ago, napmaster said:

Can't pay Gillmore when you give Dareus $100M.  I sure miss Whaley.

Yeah, I was not a Buddy Nix fan, but Gilmore was a rock-solid pick of his that unfortunately had to leave town due to the gross mismanagement of his successor.  

[thebandit27]

5 minutes ago, BillyWhiteShows said:

 

Still not sold based on one comment during a conference.  Belichick talks up the Bills and opponents all the time.  Do you think he really believes it?

 

Again, I’m not saying that’s the case but observing body language is the exact same thing as interpreting a quote.  It’s all an inference based on information 

 

It wasn't one comment; the whole article was on the subject.  That just happened to be a single snippet of interest.  Give it a read; perhaps your opinion would change.

 

5 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Cool story, but I still don’t like Gilmore and glad they didn’t resign him. However as BADOL pointed out, if it meant drafting Mahomes and keeping SG I’d sign up for that. Come to think of it, I don’t like Marrone too much either. 

 

Well that's kind of the point.  Would the team be better off if they re-signed Gilmore, drafted Mahomes, and had the 21st overall pick to use (on, say, Calvin Ridley or DJ Moore) in 2017?

 

4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

That was a blown coverage by the safety. 

 

Indeed...so spake Rex:

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2016/11/01/bills-film-room-breaking-down-patriots-wr-chris-hogans-td-vs-stephon-gilmore/

...but Gilmore apparently missed a coverage check on the play as well (which seemingly happened to someone on the defense in every play of Rex's tenure)

[Rico]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

@Rico .... another Whaley gem?

Nope, he was a Buddy Nix gem. The much-maligned Nix actually made some good picks for the Bills.

[dave mcbride]

29 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

I can post where I please. Why is only positive feedback allowed? Rather than ignoring every thread that is irrelevant in my opinion, I try to point out when one is unnecessary.

This board is best when other teams and their players are discussed, and that has always gone on here for nearly 20 years. A Bills-only discussion board would suck, and I'd run away screaming. 

[BillyWhiteShows]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

There was  a ton of discussion about that play after the game. Reading the tea leaves from postgame comments, the general consensus was the coverage was blown. I think there were about five threads on that play after it happened. 

 

Just like me, we have no way of knowing the call.  “Reading the tea leaves” is compelling evidence.  But to me it looked like he was burned and this happened more times than it should have in Buffalo 

1 minute ago, Rico said:

Nope, he was a Buddy Nix gem. The much-maligned Nix actually made some good picks for the Bills.

Quite possibly Buddy’s best pick.

[WMDman]

BOOOO

[thebandit27]

Just now, BillyWhiteShows said:

 

Just like me, we have no way of knowing the call.  “Reading the tea leaves” is compelling evidence.  But to me it looked like he was burned and this happened more times than it should have in Buffalo 

 

Check out the article I posted; he didn't get burned.  It was a miscommunication between the DBs; Meeks was supposed to help him out.

 

Getting back to his all-pro selection, here's an interesting statistic that tells a bit more about his play:

 

[Mark Vader]

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

The badmouthing of Gilmore when he was on the Bills was insane. He’s always been a very good and often great corner. Yes, he got too many penalties but many of them were unwarranted. 

He got toasted by Chris Hogan when he was here.

 

That should never happen to any CB in this league.

[Coach Tuesday]

Bills fans’ evaluations of Gilmore should be used as an objective yardstick of football acumen.

 

The best coach in history thought he was worth paying to be the top corner in the league, and he proved that decision to be the correct one by playing like the best corner in the league.

 

But he didn’t smile on draft day and pointed at a teammate once so...

1 minute ago, Mark Vader said:

He got toasted by Chris Hogan when he was here.

 

That should never happen to any CB in this league.

 

Your post should never happen, for a variety of reasons including that the premise of it was debunked upthread and it’s a nonsense point in any event.  This is what I mean...

Edited January 4, 2019 by Coach Tuesday

[BuffaloHokie13]

8 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

This board is best when other teams and their players are discussed, and that has always gone on here for nearly 20 years. A Bills-only discussion board would suck, and I'd run away screaming. 

I'm interested in other teams' players when there is a chance that they are Bills at some point in the future. When they are recently allowed to walk and talk crap on their way out, I don't much care about their media accolades. Want to talk about his play against the Bills? Cool, I'm in. Want to discuss his All-Pro selection? Why?

[Mark Vader]

3 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Bills fans’ evaluations of Gilmore should be used as an objective yardstick of football acumen.

 

The best coach in history thought he was worth paying to be the top corner in the league, and he proved that decision to be the correct one by playing like the best corner in the league.

 

But he didn’t smile on draft day and pointed at a teammate once so...

 

Your post should never happen, for a variety of reasons including that the premise of it was debunked upthread and it’s a nonsense point in any event.  This is what I mean...

Just so you know, I was a fan of Gilmore. I wanted the Bills to draft him.

 

I liked what I saw from him when he was here, and we all saw what he did against Odell Beckham Jr. and it was great.

 

What I hated was his last season here. His attitude was terrible and you could see it in his play. He did not look like he wanted to be here and he played like it.

 

The Chris Hogan play is one example of how his final season was here.

[Coach Tuesday]

Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said:

I'm interested in other teams' players when there is a chance that they are Bills at some point in the future. When they are recently allowed to walk and talk crap on their way out, I don't much care about their media accolades. Want to talk about his play against the Bills? Cool, I'm in. Want to discuss his All-Pro selection? Why?

 

“Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.”  Signed, the Buffalo Bills.

 

Also, this is a football message board.

Just now, Mark Vader said:

Just so you know, I was a fan of Gilmore. I wanted the Bills to draft him.

 

I liked what I saw from him when he was here, and we all saw what he did against Odell Beckham Jr. and it was great.

 

What I hated was his last season here. His attitude was terrible and you could see it in his play. He did not look like he wanted to be here and he played like it.

 

The Chris Hogan play is one example of how his final season was here.

 

The Hogan play was not his fault.

 

The point about his last season is somewhat valid - there were concentration lapses and some “business decisions” made while tackling (which ended up to his detriment) but you cannot argue with what he’s done this year, which is exactly what the GOAT paid him to do.

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

I'm interested in other teams' players when there is a chance that they are Bills at some point in the future. When they are recently allowed to walk and talk crap on their way out, I don't much care about their media accolades. Want to talk about his play against the Bills? Cool, I'm in. Want to discuss his All-Pro selection? Why?

Because he plays for our main division rival, he used to play for the Bills, he was a top ten pick for us, and we're likely to face him 4-6 times over the next 2-3 years. Plus -- again -- this is an NFL board too. It's not only about the Bills. That's why a lot of the good posters here (Bandit, Kirby, 26, Badol, Yolo) have contributed so much for so long.

[billspro]

I don’t think he is good enough to shut down a number 1 but he is good enough to shut down a number 2. That is how the Pats use him and it is another reason BB is the best coach in the NFL.

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Because he plays for our main division rival, he used to play for the Bills, he was a top ten pick for us, and we're likely to face him 4-6 times over the next 2-3 years. Plus -- again -- this is an NFL board too. It's not only about the Bills. That's why a lot of the good posters here (Bandit, Kirby, 26, Badol, Yolo) have contributed so much for so long.

 

Also, I think Foster did a good job against him. I think we can take advantage of the matchup next season.

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, Mark Vader said:

Just so you know, I was a fan of Gilmore. I wanted the Bills to draft him.

 

I liked what I saw from him when he was here, and we all saw what he did against Odell Beckham Jr. and it was great.

 

What I hated was his last season here. His attitude was terrible and you could see it in his play. He did not look like he wanted to be here and he played like it.

 

The Chris Hogan play is one example of how his final season was here.

What has to be factored in in his last season was the extreme discontent among most of the Bills defensive players with Rex's system, which was an abject failure. They finished 27th in defensive DVOA in 2016 (and 24th in 2015) despite having a lot of talent. They were 2nd under Schwartz in 2014. It was way too complicated and there was no Jim Leonhard (a bizarre constant in all of Rex's good defenses) who could explain on the fly to other players the Rube Goldberg machine that was the Bills defense in those years. 

3 minutes ago, billspro said:

I don’t think he is good enough to shut down a number 1 but he is good enough to shut down a number 2. That is how the Pats use him and it is another reason BB is the best coach in the NFL.

 

Also, I think Foster did a good job against him. I think we can take advantage of the matchup next season.

I'm a Foster fan. He's a player.

[BillyWhiteShows]

5 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

“Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.”  Signed, the Buffalo Bills.

 

Also, this is a football message board.

 

The Hogan play was not his fault.

 

The point about his last season is somewhat valid - there were concentration lapses and some “business decisions” made while tackling (which ended up to his detriment) but you cannot argue with what he’s done this year, which is exactly what the GOAT paid him to do.

 

It wasn’t his fault, just like how getting beat by Robert Foster on the go route wasn’t his fault either.  Gotcha.  Safety must have lost coverage

[thebandit27]

Just now, billspro said:

I don’t think he is good enough to shut down a number 1 but he is good enough to shut down a number 2. That is how the Pats use him and it is another reason BB is the best coach in the NFL.

 

"Shutdown" corner is a myth...even the best corners give up receptions.

 

In general, you aren't going to find a coach that uses a corner specifically against an opponent's WR2.  The typical schools of thought are:

 

Theory 1: match your CB1 against your opponent's CB1. In theory, you can feel confident that the opponent's WR1 won't have a huge game against you.

Theory 2: play your CB1 on the same side of the field all the time.  In theory, you know that you don't have to worry about that side of the field, and can flood the other side of the field with coverage en masse.

 

I don't think I've ever heard of any coach saying "I'm going to match my CB1 against the opponent's WR2 so that I don't have to..."; actually I can't think of a single idea that would make sense as a finish to that sentence.

 

No offense.

Just now, BillyWhiteShows said:

 

It wasn’t his fault, just like how getting beat by Robert Foster on the go route wasn’t his fault either.  Gotcha.  Safety must have lost coverage

 

I would (again) encourage you to read the article that I posted that is specifically about that play

[Mark Vader]

2 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

“Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.”  Signed, the Buffalo Bills.

 

Also, this is a football message board.

 

The Hogan play was not his fault.

 

The point about his last season is somewhat valid - there were concentration lapses and some “business decisions” made while tackling (which ended up to his detriment) but you cannot argue with what he’s done this year, which is exactly what the GOAT paid him to do.

I don't care about what he did this year. That's not what I'm getting at.

 

There were things that he did in his final year that I thought was insulting to the fans. His attitude really pissed me off. We as fans do not deserve that.

 

Do I hold a grudge, yes! Like I said, I was thrilled when the Bills drafted him. I even defended him in his first few seasons, when people were complaining that Gilmore does not get any interceptions. His final year with the Bills was the last straw for me.

 

If he's reached his potential with the Patriots*.....so be it.

[BillyWhiteShows]

13 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Bills fans’ evaluations of Gilmore should be used as an objective yardstick of football acumen.

 

The best coach in history thought he was worth paying to be the top corner in the league, and he proved that decision to be the correct one by playing like the best corner in the league.

 

But he didn’t smile on draft day and pointed at a teammate once so...

 

Your post should never happen, for a variety of reasons including that the premise of it was debunked upthread and it’s a nonsense point in any event.  This is what I mean...

 

Weak post.

[BuffaloHokie13]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

Because he plays for our main division rival, he used to play for the Bills, he was a top ten pick for us, and we're likely to face him 4-6 times over the next 2-3 years. Plus -- again -- this is an NFL board too. It's not only about the Bills. That's why a lot of the good posters here (Bandit, Kirby, 26, Badol, Yolo) have contributed so much for so long.

And again, I'm for discussing his play against us and matchups with Foster/Zay/whoever we pick up in the next 4 months. I'm unsure why you want to recognize a player for our main division rival's media accolade. Are you making this thread if it's Preston Brown with the award? Or Sammy? Or Tyrod?

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, Rico said:

Nope, he was a Buddy Nix gem. The much-maligned Nix actually made some good picks for the Bills.

 

He's much maligned because he didn't do his most important job..........which was to draft and develop a QB.

 

Nix failure to do so is the reason for the most recent tear down.

 

Like him or not Whaley was like the ball in the pinball machine........lead into harms way by the outgoing Nix and left to draft the best available QB in a wing-and-prayer class of QB's........and then batted around between 3 head coaches orders and a new owner's ignorance(Dareus' contract was on Terry Pegula).

 

What Buddy didn't understand is that in the modern NFL you get the QB first.........they can play 15-18 years..........and then you build around them.

 

Since then teams like the Seahawks have made this into a league-wide model for how to handle your business.

 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

2 minutes ago, BillyWhiteShows said:

 

Weak post.

 

Says the guy who starts duplicate threads daily.

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

He's much maligned because he didn't do his most important job..........which was to draft and develop a QB.

 

Nix failure to do so is the reason for the most recent tear down.

 

Like him or not Whaley was like the ball in the pinball machine........lead into harms way by the outgoing Nix and left to draft the best available QB in a wing-and-prayer class of QB's........and then batted around between 3 head coaches orders and a new owner's ignorance(Dareus' contract was on Terry Pegula).

 

What Buddy didn't understand is that in the modern NFL you get the QB first.........they can play 15-18 years..........and then you build around them.

 

Since then teams like the Seahawks have made this into a league-wide model for how to handle your business.

 

 

 

Ain't that the truth?  The "it all starts up front" generation resisted with a fervor I never understood.

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

And again, I'm for discussing his play against us and matchups with Foster/Zay/whoever we pick up in the next 4 months. I'm unsure why you want to recognize a player for our main division rival's media accolade. Are you making this thread if it's Preston Brown with the award? Or Sammy? Or Tyrod?

I'm unsure of your point. Making the AP All Pro first team is a big effing deal. What has Preston Brown done of note? As for myself, I pay close attention to Bills' draftees who leave the fold. Most here do, in fact. 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, GG said:

 

He definitely played at a high level in Buffalo, yet somehow the refs have now stopped calling ticky tack PI on him.  Amazing how that affects DB rankings.

Exactly,  if Jerry Hughes ever got acquired by NE, he'd lead the league in sacks and holding calls....

[Troll Toll]

I still think Gilmore sucks. He’s lucky to play against scrub receivers 6 times a year in the AFC East. Shredded by Foles in the Super Bowl.

[JoPar_v2]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

And again, I'm for discussing his play against us and matchups with Foster/Zay/whoever we pick up in the next 4 months. I'm unsure why you want to recognize a player for our main division rival's media accolade. Are you making this thread if it's Preston Brown with the award? Or Sammy? Or Tyrod?

 

Because it’s news. NFL news is discussed here. Always has been. There were threads about Reuben Foster’s legal troubles too, who isn’t even tangentially related to the Bills. Did you whinge in those threads as well? 

 

 

[BillyWhiteShows]

3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

"Shutdown" corner is a myth...even the best corners give up receptions.

 

In general, you aren't going to find a coach that uses a corner specifically against an opponent's WR2.  The typical schools of thought are:

 

Theory 1: match your CB1 against your opponent's CB1. In theory, you can feel confident that the opponent's WR1 won't have a huge game against you.

Theory 2: play your CB1 on the same side of the field all the time.  In theory, you know that you don't have to worry about that side of the field, and can flood the other side of the field with coverage en masse.

 

I don't think I've ever heard of any coach saying "I'm going to match my CB1 against the opponent's WR2 so that I don't have to..."; actually I can't think of a single idea that would make sense as a finish to that sentence.

 

No offense.

 

I would (again) encourage you to read the article that I posted that is specifically about that play

 

The article is authored by Erik Turner.  No offense,  but he’s a gloried fan with experience as a high school football player who blogs.  Zero experience with college or NFL defenses.   Nothing wrong with that but his opinion is far from factual. 

 

His opinion on what he thinks happened is no more arbitrary than mine, or your opinion for that matter.  

 

Next time, try harder to find your smoking gun

[Coach Tuesday]

Just now, Troll Toll said:

I still think Gilmore sucks. He’s lucky to play against scrub receivers 6 times a year in the AFC East. Shredded by Foles in the Super Bowl.

 

THE EARTH IS FLAT

[thebandit27]

Just now, Troll Toll said:

I still think Gilmore sucks. He’s lucky to play against scrub receivers 6 times a year in the AFC East. Shredded by Foles in the Super Bowl.

 

You're aware that he allowed zero receptions in that game, right?  In fact, NE moved him over to match Alshon Jeffery in the 2nd half, and Jeffery had zero receptions after that point.

[BillyWhiteShows]

4 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Says the guy who starts duplicate threads daily.

 

Whoooooooooooa Sick burn Coach!

 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

You're aware that he allowed zero receptions in that game, right?  In fact, NE moved him over to match Alshon Jeffery in the 2nd half, and Jeffery had zero receptions after that point.

 

He isn’t aware.  Do you know what Flat-Earthers do when they’re presented with objective, measurable evidence that the Earth is round?  They ignore it.  It’s a symptom of our times...

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, BillyWhiteShows said:

 

The article is authored by Erik Turner.  No offense,  but he’s a gloried fan with experience as a high school football player who blogs.  Zero experience with college or NFL defenses.   Nothing wrong with that but his opinion is far from factual. 

 

His opinion on what he thinks happened is no more arbitrary than mine, or your opinion for that matter.  

 

Next time, try harder to find your smoking gun

 

He specifically references Rex Ryan's quote in the article that says the coverage check was missed.  Maybe you don't think my opinion, TurnerE's opinion, or your opinion matters much, but I would think that the HC's opinion matters.

 

Next time, try harder to read the article before responding with the snark.

[dave mcbride]

10 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

He's much maligned because he didn't do his most important job..........which was to draft and develop a QB.

 

Nix failure to do so is the reason for the most recent tear down.

 

Like him or not Whaley was like the ball in the pinball machine........lead into harms way by the outgoing Nix and left to draft the best available QB in a wing-and-prayer class of QB's........and then batted around between 3 head coaches orders and a new owner's ignorance(Dareus' contract was on Terry Pegula).

 

What Buddy didn't understand is that in the modern NFL you get the QB first.........they can play 15-18 years..........and then you build around them.

 

Since then teams like the Seahawks have made this into a league-wide model for how to handle your business.

 

 

Totally right about Seattle. The non-QBs on that team gripe when contract time comes around, but they keep winning because the team focuses on the main thing (and drafts well). Incidentally, how about Tyler Lockett this season? I remember watching him in a losing effort for K-State in a bowl game vs. UCLA and thinking that he was by far and away the best player on the field (and Miles Jack and Eric Kendricks were on that field).  https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/01/01/tyler-lockett-had-one-of-the-greatest-wide-receiver-seasons-in-nfl-history/

6 minutes ago, Troll Toll said:

I still think Gilmore sucks. He’s lucky to play against scrub receivers 6 times a year in the AFC East. Shredded by Foles in the Super Bowl.

This is actually false. They avoided throwing at him pretty much the whole game. 

Edited January 4, 2019 by dave mcbride

[billspro]

10 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

"Shutdown" corner is a myth...even the best corners give up receptions.

 

In general, you aren't going to find a coach that uses a corner specifically against an opponent's WR2.  The typical schools of thought are:

 

Theory 1: match your CB1 against your opponent's CB1. In theory, you can feel confident that the opponent's WR1 won't have a huge game against you.

Theory 2: play your CB1 on the same side of the field all the time.  In theory, you know that you don't have to worry about that side of the field, and can flood the other side of the field with coverage en masse.

 

I don't think I've ever heard of any coach saying "I'm going to match my CB1 against the opponent's WR2 so that I don't have to..."; actually I can't think of a single idea that would make sense as a finish to that sentence.

 

No offense.

 

I would (again) encourage you to read the article that I posted that is specifically about that play

 

Usually, what the Pats do is put McCourty and a safety on the number 1 and Gilmore on the number 2. That was based on an article I was reading though. Gilmore also seemed to shadow Foster when we played them. I don’t know who our number 1 is though.

[Coach Tuesday]

3 minutes ago, BillyWhiteShows said:

 

Whoooooooooooa Sick burn Coach!

 

 

 

“Sick burn”?  Did you attend Heim Middle School in the 80s?  That’s the last time I heard someone use that phrase.

[peterpan]

1 hour ago, GG said:

 

He definitely played at a high level in Buffalo, yet somehow the refs have now stopped calling ticky tack PI on him.  Amazing how that affects DB rankings.

Exactly.  He got called for EVERYTHING in Buffalo, now that he is in NE, he gets away with everything. 

 

Gilmore is a perfect microcosm of how the refs can control the outcomes of games, players, the whole league really

[CommonCents]

1 minute ago, billspro said:

 

Usually, what the Pats do is put McCourty and a safety on the number 1 and Gilmore on the number 2. That was based on an article I was reading though. Gilmore also seemed to shadow Foster when we played them. I don’t know who our number 1 is though.

They do that from time to time, IIRC they kept him on Watkins and off of Hill when they played the Chiefs. Seems they do it mostly against super fast guys. Gilmore is better suited against guys he can be physical with. The only guy that took his lunch money this year was Corey Davis. He ate Gilmore up. Other than that he has had a nice season. 

[thebandit27]

Just now, Coach Tuesday said:

 

“Sick burn”?  Did you attend Heim Middle School in the 80s?  That’s the last time I heard someone use that phrase.

 

I did!

[BillyWhiteShows]

2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

He specifically references Rex Ryan's quote in the article that says the coverage check was missed.  Maybe you don't think my opinion, TurnerE's opinion, or your opinion matters much, but I would think that the HC's opinion matters.

 

Next time, try harder to read the article before responding with the snark.

 

Here what Rex said, and this basically confirms MY opinion.  It goes back to what I originally had said - Gilmore was beat more in 2016 than you would expect from a CB of his caliber.  Like I said. Smoking guy. Try harder.

 

Even more eye-opening was that coach Ryan confirmed that Stephon blew the coverage.

 

“Stephon Gilmore needs to get back to where he was in training camp. It hasn’t been all bad, but clearly had some struggles.”

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I did!

 

Yes I played high school football there. And I also blog. That’s how I know Stephon Gilmore has a stellar year in 2016.  He never got beat.  It was always someone else’s fault.