Is Josh Allen your QB?

[oldmanfan]

20 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Literally every QB in the NFL throws the ball away and has their receivers drop passes.

 

This isn't unique to just Josh Allen. 

 

Allen is bottom of the NFL in pretty much every passing category. He's not even remotely close to guys like Big Ben or Brees. 

 

32nd in QB Rating, 34th in TD %, 29th in Int %, 33rd in YPA, 33 in Adjusted YPA, 34th in Net YPA, 34th in Adjusted Net YPA. 

 

His stats are really bad. Like worst in the league by most metrics. 

 

This isn't a narrative. This is all factual information. 

 

Allen has made his dumb rookie mistake twice now on throws that were picked this season. He actually made the same mistake in the 3rd quarter, after he'd already been picked the first time, so he doesn't appear to have learned anything. 

You are ridiculous.  Absolutely and totally ridiculous with an agenda that will not allow you to have any sense of rationality about the QB of the Buffalo Bills.  Allen made a mistake throwing back across the field.  He made that mistake against the Pack.  And what does this mean to you?  That he has learned nothing at all this year.  What crap.  What utter nonsense.  What drivel.  Anyone with any sense of objectivity can tell that after coming back from injury, Allen has done better at going through progressions, etc.  But he has learned nothing to you, because you don't know what you're talking about. 

 

I stop here to remind you and all who read this, you are the guy who wanted to trade an entire draft to get the greatest QB of all time:  Jameis Winston.  You have no real ability to judge QB play in the NFL but continue to pretend you do.

 

Yes, Allen's stats are lower.  That might be because he has receivers that keep dropping the ball on hi,  Again, take away the drops and throw aways and he's at the magical 60% completion that so many continue to harp on.  And my math is of course factual as well.   His stats might also be lower because he has taken run lanes defenses give him and use his legs to make plays.  And the ratio of run to pass will likely change as the young QB with 8 starts to his name gains experience.  But not to you of course, because it would upset your agenda.

[Bangarang]

8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You are ridiculous.  Absolutely and totally ridiculous with an agenda that will not allow you to have any sense of rationality about the QB of the Buffalo Bills. 

 

Again, take away the drops and throw aways and he's at the magical 60% completion that so many continue to harp on. 

 

You can’t just magically not count incompletions just so it can inflate his completion percentage to a number more desireable.

 

 

[DCOrange]

For what it's worth:

 

The last three weeks, Allen has finished 8th, 6th, and now 4th in QBR.

 

PFF hasn't updated their grades for this week's games yet, but Allen was the highest rated QB over the previous two weeks and I imagine he probably had an average grade this week.

Edited December 10, 2018 by DCOrange

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

You can’t just magically not count incompletions just so it can inflate his completion percentage to a number more desireable.

 

 

I am talking but accuracy, which people mistakenly conflate with completion percentage.  People keep harping about him being inaccurate based on only having 50% completions.  When your receivers keep dropping passes you put right in their hands on right on their numbers, that isn't the Qb being inaccurate.  That is having receivers that can't catch.

 

Let's also talk about the throw aways.  My favorite Allen basher, pretend to know everything about QB play but actually knows little poster around here completely bashed Allen for his first pick.  And I actually agree with that:  he never should have thrown that ball back into the middle of the field and he needs to learn that lesson.  But if he had throw it away as he should have?  Then it affects his completion percentage and they harp all over that, forgetting that he would have made exactly the right play under the circumstances.

 

I increasingly believe that, at least for some around here, the Bills will never have a successful QB.  Not because  the individual in question is unsuccessful , but because there are some who don't want a Bills QB to succeed.  It is the only conclusion I can draw based on some of what I read around here.

[Jerome007]

12 hours ago, Bangarang said:

It’s his team but it’s too soon to declare him the franchise.

I agree yet I still voted #1 with all the options. And believe he could very well be "the franchise". And I'm so glad that with all the vocal doom'n'gloom types posting here that over 80% feels the same. Goes to show loud posters don't necessarily speak for the majority!

[jrober38]

35 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You are ridiculous.  Absolutely and totally ridiculous with an agenda that will not allow you to have any sense of rationality about the QB of the Buffalo Bills.  Allen made a mistake throwing back across the field.  He made that mistake against the Pack.  And what does this mean to you?  That he has learned nothing at all this year.  What crap.  What utter nonsense.  What drivel.  Anyone with any sense of objectivity can tell that after coming back from injury, Allen has done better at going through progressions, etc.  But he has learned nothing to you, because you don't know what you're talking about. 

 

I stop here to remind you and all who read this, you are the guy who wanted to trade an entire draft to get the greatest QB of all time:  Jameis Winston.  You have no real ability to judge QB play in the NFL but continue to pretend you do.

 

Yes, Allen's stats are lower.  That might be because he has receivers that keep dropping the ball on hi,  Again, take away the drops and throw aways and he's at the magical 60% completion that so many continue to harp on.  And my math is of course factual as well.   His stats might also be lower because he has taken run lanes defenses give him and use his legs to make plays.  And the ratio of run to pass will likely change as the young QB with 8 starts to his name gains experience.  But not to you of course, because it would upset your agenda.

 

You're full of bad excuses. 

 

Allen made the mistake against Green Bay, he made it in the 2nd quarter yesterday for a pick, and he made it in the 3rd quarter that should have been picked. Again, where is the proof he's learning?

 

And again, every QB has receivers who drop the ball. Every QB in the NFL throws the ball away. This isn't unique to Allen. Adjust for those throws for every QB, and Allen will still be at the bottom of the pile in completion percentage with Darnold and Rosen. 

 

Nothing you say is based on fact. Just raw emotion based on what you hope becomes real. 

47 minutes ago, NewDayBills said:

Once again, the good news for Allen is that the areas he's weak in areas that typically NFL veterans become proficient in over time. Allen can throw a 75yd strike to Robert Foster but he can't hit a 1yd RB screen? It'll come. As far as deep plays I think he's done more than you give him credit for. Foster has almost 400yds at 24yac. Zay Jones almost had a 3 TD 120yd game. He's making plays. Allen will become a manager in 2019 or will at least show development in that area next year. Every NFL QB should should should show growth here year after year. What you can't teach is the 45yd runs or TD passes thrown on a dime.

 

In theory this is all true.

 

In reality it doesn't always happen. It certainly didn't happen for JP Losman, EJ Manuel, Akili Smith, Josh Freeman, Kyle Boller, Vince Young or Jake Locker to name a few.

 

I hope you're right. I really do. I watch Bills games with my 3 year old son and the only guy he knows on the Bills is Josh Allen, but he likes to cheer for him. I don't know if he's his favourite player, but he's aware of him and it would be cool if growing up Allen could become the franchise QB for the Bills and my son grows up watching a good team. 

 

I just don't get how some fans can be so upset whenever someone is critical of Allen. His running ability is elite, his arm is phenomenal, but his ability as a passer is still extremely limited. He's a good "thrower", capable of making incredible plays from time to time, but as a "passer", who consistently throws guys open and can put touch on balls so his receiver can run after the catch, he's extremely limited in that department. His passing stats across the board are essentially the worst in the league among QBs. Sure he's a rookie, but putting things in perspective he needs to improve dramatically just to get to the point where he's top 20 in the NFL. 

 

Hopefully it happens. It would be great if he takes a huge step forward next year. 

[BillsFan130]

12 hours ago, Domdab99 said:

anyone who doesn't pick the first option should kill themselves

Jesus lol. That’s just dark

[oldmanfan]

10 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

You're full of bad excuses. 

 

Allen made the mistake against Green Bay, he made it in the 2nd quarter yesterday for a pick, and he made it in the 3rd quarter that should have been picked. Again, where is the proof he's learning?

 

And again, every QB has receivers who drop the ball. Every QB in the NFL throws the ball away. This isn't unique to Allen. Adjust for those throws for every QB, and Allen will still be at the bottom of the pile in completion percentage with Darnold and Rosen. 

 

Nothing you say is based on fact. Just raw emotion based on what you hope becomes real. 

 

In theory this is all true.

 

In reality it doesn't always happen. It certainly didn't happen for JP Losman, EJ Manuel, Akili Smith, Josh Freeman, Kyle Boller, Vince Young or Jake Locker to name a few.

 

I hope you're right. I really do. I watch Bills games with my 3 year old son and the only guy he knows on the Bills is Josh Allen, but he likes to cheer for him. I don't know if he's his favourite player, but he's aware of him and it would be cool if growing up Allen could become the franchise QB for the Bills and my son grows up watching a good team. 

 

I just don't get how some fans can be so upset whenever someone is critical of Allen. His running ability is elite, his arm is phenomenal, but his ability as a passer is still extremely limited. He's a good "thrower", capable of making incredible plays from time to time, but as a "passer", who consistently throws guys open and can put touch on balls so his receiver can run after the catch, he's extremely limited in that department. His passing stats across the board are essentially the worst in the league among QBs. Sure he's a rookie, but putting things in perspective he needs to improve dramatically just to get to the point where he's top 20 in the NFL. 

 

Hopefully it happens. It would be great if he takes a huge step forward next year. 

Where is the proof he's learning?  The games.  where he takes what the D gives him in the running game.  Where he goes through his progressions.  Where anyone with a scintilla of objectivity can see he's making progress after coming back from injury..  But because he threw a pick yesterday, he hasn't learned anything according to you.  Hasn't learned anything because of one pass.  and I'm the one making excuses.

 

He has to improve dramatically?  So do his receivers.  it would be instructive to see where his ranking would be if guys actually caught passes that hit them in the hands.

 

You should listen to your three year old.  He knows more about football than you do.

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Where is the proof he's learning?  The games.  where he takes what the D gives him in the running game.  Where he goes through his progressions.  Where anyone with a scintilla of objectivity can see he's making progress after coming back from injury..  But because he threw a pick yesterday, he hasn't learned anything according to you.  Hasn't learned anything because of one pass.  and I'm the one making excuses.

 

He has to improve dramatically?  So do his receivers.  it would be instructive to see where his ranking would be if guys actually caught passes that hit them in the hands.

 

You should listen to your three year old.  He knows more about football than you do.

 

More opinion with no actual data to back it up.

[thebandit27]

11 hours ago, Bangarang said:

 

Lol wat

 

 

 

Having not seen the game, I will give @jrober38 the benefit of the doubt that he must be talking about a different play.

11 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

If it's not out in front why does Clay lose his balance reaching for the ball? I was at the stadium with a view from the far end zone and Clay had to stretch to get to the ball. If it's not too far out in front why is Clay hunched over reaching for the ball in the next frame? After last week, if the home crowd thought Clay dropped the ball, don't you think there would have been at least some booing? 

 

In terms of positioning, Allen is on the right hash. Clay makes contact with the ball in between the hash marks, meaning it's moving from right hash towards the left hash, meaning  the ball is leading Clay. Watching the trajectory of the football, it is clearly dropping and if untouched would probably land on the 45 or 46 yard line on the left hash.  Clay should catch the ball because it hits his hands, but the placement of the ball is very poor.

 

Clay is wide open and Allen needs to learn to put some air under the ball. Hopefully that will come with more experience. 

 

Dude, you can not like Allen as a QB without stretching like this; there are plenty of plays to criticize...pick one of those.

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

More opinion with no actual data to back it up.

Best rushing yards in the league at the QB positon.  watch the game yesterday.  What did he do?  Took what the defenses gave him.  When the MLB vacates the middle of the field he had huge running lanes and took them.  That's called reading a defense.  Do you see him turning his back to the D as he did against the Pack anymore?  No.  That's called learning.  Again, objective folks with no agenda like yours have commented on his enhanced play since returning.  But because your agenda is to see him fail that's of course erroneous.

 

Because he throws one pick he has learned nothing.  Go take a stats class and ask the professor if an N of 1 is sufficient data to back up such a ridiculous conclusion.  He or she will laugh you out of their office.

[ddaryl]

I like that Josh can run but its going to be his undoing if he doesn't learn to pass much better.

 

As of now I keep seeing Josh take a step forward only to see him take 2 steps back as a passing QB.

 

One moment I thinks its happening for him, and then he makes a few bone throws to offset it all.

 

The drop by Zay was painful and could of been a difference maker though....

 

But As it stands right now I want a real QB competition. Because 2 with potential trumps one with potential IMO

Edited December 10, 2018 by ddaryl

[HeHateMe]

6 hours ago, RosenNOTchosen1 said:

 

Why did Barkley seem to have time to throw against the same team?

Bodine was in there and the line did play much better that game.  They were able to run the ball that game too.  Couldn't yesterday.

[tcampbell104]

where are we getting this other qb

[jrober38]

6 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Best rushing yards in the league at the QB positon.  watch the game yesterday.  What did he do?  Took what the defenses gave him.  When the MLB vacates the middle of the field he had huge running lanes and took them.  That's called reading a defense.  Do you see him turning his back to the D as he did against the Pack anymore?  No.  That's called learning.  Again, objective folks with no agenda like yours have commented on his enhanced play since returning.  But because your agenda is to see him fail that's of course erroneous.

 

Because he throws one pick he has learned nothing.  Go take a stats class and ask the professor if an N of 1 is sufficient data to back up such a ridiculous conclusion.  He or she will laugh you out of their office.

 

He threw 2 picks and had a terrible fumble. 

 

Both were awful throws. 

[WideRightRevenge]

12 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

The throw to Clay was an awful throw. He's wide open and Allen throws a bullet at his knees instead of easing it out in front of him. Should have been an easy throw and catch and Allen whipped it too low in a spot he needed to dive for it.  

 

Allen struggles badly to throw with touch. Unless he's throwing the ball on a rope he's often overthrowing passes or throwing them at his receivers ankles. This has been an issue all season. He left 4 or 5 easy completions on the field today because the easy throws don't come naturally to him. 

 

Our team struggles to generate yards after the catch because Allen isn't consistent with his ball placement. 

 

Still gladly take him over Josh Rosen in terms of what was left to draft

[Victory Formation]

37 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

 

In theory this is all true.

 

In reality it doesn't always happen. It certainly didn't happen for JP Losman, EJ Manuel, Akili Smith, Josh Freeman, Kyle Boller, Vince Young or Jake Locker to name a few.

 

I hope you're right. I really do. I watch Bills games with my 3 year old son and the only guy he knows on the Bills is Josh Allen, but he likes to cheer for him. I don't know if he's his favourite player, but he's aware of him and it would be cool if growing up Allen could become the franchise QB for the Bills and my son grows up watching a good team. 

 

I just don't get how some fans can be so upset whenever someone is critical of Allen. His running ability is elite, his arm is phenomenal, but his ability as a passer is still extremely limited. He's a good "thrower", capable of making incredible plays from time to time, but as a "passer", who consistently throws guys open and can put touch on balls so his receiver can run after the catch, he's extremely limited in that department. His passing stats across the board are essentially the worst in the league among QBs. Sure he's a rookie, but putting things in perspective he needs to improve dramatically just to get to the point where he's top 20 in the NFL. 

 

Hopefully it happens. It would be great if he takes a huge step forward next year. 

It is true and Allen is a smart QB so there should be no red flags going into this. Absolutely no proof that Allen will not develop, there is more evidence to support Allen being a good QB than a bad one. I think you've just been crushed over and over from previous QBs that you're a bit hesitant to be supportive of new ones.

[jrober38]

4 minutes ago, WideRightRevenge said:

 

Still gladly take him over Josh Rosen in terms of what was left to draft

 

Right now, sure.

 

I'll be interested to see what Arizona does in the offseason. Wilks looks like he should be one and done, and if they nail their coaching hire I can see a similar Jared Goff type turnaround from when he was so bad under Jeff Fischer and took a huge step forward under McVay. Will be interesting to see what they do. 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

3 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

He threw 2 picks and had a terrible fumble. 

 

Both were awful throws. 

Oh my God. our rookie QB threw two interceptions and had a fumble - The sky is falling.  You're such a "chicken little."    

[jrober38]

4 minutes ago, NewDayBills said:

It is true and Allen is a smart QB so there should be no red flags going into this. Absolutely no proof that Allen will not develop, there is more evidence to support Allen being a good QB than a bad one. I think you've just been crushed over and over from previous QBs that you're a bit hesitant to be supportive of new ones.

 

None of this is based on facts or evidence. It's just what you hope will happen.

 

People though EJ Manuel would get better after his rookie season. He was big, strong and smart, but just never figured out how to pass the football well enough at the NFL level. It wasn't from a lack of talent or effort. 

Until Allen actually develops, you can't say it's going to happen. It's just a raw projection of something that may or may not happen.