December 7th 1941

[/dev/null]

A date which will live in infamy

[RochesterRob]

59 minutes ago, /dev/null said:

A date which will live in infamy

  Sadly, a date that is of little interest to many people today.  

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

77th anniversary 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

Got to tour the site while on an anniversary trip to Oahu, and it is nuts how "right there" the ships are under the waterline--you can literally almost see everything it's that low. That and the fuel oil bubbles that periodically come up if you're paying attention. IIRC, the legend is that they will stop leaking oil when the last survivor joins his brothers on the other side. It was a moving and powerful experience, highly recommend. 

Edited December 7, 2018 by NoHuddleKelly12

[RochesterRob]

7 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Got to tour the site on while on an anniversary trip to Oahu, and it is nuts how "right there" the ships are under the waterline--you can literally almost see everything it's that low. That and the fuel oil bubbles that periodically come up if you're paying attention. IIRC, the legend is that they will stop leaking oil when the last survivor joins his brothers on the other side. It was a moving and powerful experience, highly recommend. 

  I'm a little concerned as to the future of the Arizona and Utah memorial sites.  Visits to the Arizona Memorial have been suspended due to structural problems and the ship itself has structural fatigue issues.  I would like to think that it is inconceivable that the Arizona would be cut up and moved but you don't how the people of the future will feel about a crumbling wreck that by a lot of estimates still has half a million gallons of fuel oil aboard.  The USS Texas is not fairing a whole lot better with itself having structural fatigue issues and the salt water of the Gulf of Mexico making further damage.  Should have been placed at a Northern freshwater site.  USS Pennsylvania should have been considered for preservation but I understand it would have come at great cost at a time when most Americans wanted to put the war behind them.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

6 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  I'm a little concerned as to the future of the Arizona and Utah memorial sites.  Visits to the Arizona Memorial have been suspended due to structural problems and the ship itself has structural fatigue issues.  I would like to think that it is inconceivable that the Arizona would be cut up and moved but you don't how the people of the future will feel about a crumbling wreck that by a lot of estimates still has half a million gallons of fuel oil aboard.  The USS Texas is not fairing a whole lot better with itself having structural fatigue issues and the salt water of the Gulf of Mexico making further damage.  Should have been placed at a Northern freshwater site.  USS Pennsylvania should have been considered for preservation but I understand it would have come at great cost at a time when most Americans wanted to put the war behind them.

Sobering reality, thanks for sharing the info. I went in 2010. Should not have a price tag to keep them around and stable, but you never know 

[row_33]

 

 

3 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  Sadly, a date that is of little interest to many people today.  

 

wonder if the MSM would cheer for this today

 

[Mark Vader]

My grandfather was on the USS Pennsylvania.

 

Unfortunately I did not have a good relationship with him, but I still respect that he served his country and survived that horrific day at Pearl Harbor.

[row_33]

14 minutes ago, Mark Vader said:

My grandfather was on the USS Pennsylvania.

 

Unfortunately I did not have a good relationship with him, but I still respect that he served his country and survived that horrific day at Pearl Harbor.

 

it was tough getting them to talk about it

 

i had to craft extremely respectful good questions to get a decent answer

 

glad I did it a few times

 

 

[Boca BIlls]

5 hours ago, /dev/null said:

A date which will live in infamy

Yea,  my moms birthday. 

[Misterbluesky]

4 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  Sadly, a date that is of little interest to many people today.  

No way I can forget the date....my mom's birthday.

RIP Mom.

[Mark Vader]

59 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

 

 

wonder if the MSM would cheer for this today

 

Would not surprise me

[row_33]

just thinking a bit about my grandparent's WW2 generation that volunteered to go and fight from Canada

 

i couldn't even imagine sucking it up and volunteering for military service in a safer assignment

 

 

[Nextmanup]

5 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  Sadly, a date that is of little interest to many people today.  

That's perfectly natural. 

As WWII passes out of living memory, it will become more and more distant.

 

I didn't see many threads here commemorating the 100th anniversary of key events from WWI, for example, these last several years.  It's too distant now and few remember the Battle of the Somme, for example, despite it killing or wounding @ 1 million men.

 

 

 

 

[Buffalo716]

48 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

That's perfectly natural. 

As WWII passes out of living memory, it will become more and more distant.

 

I didn't see many threads here commemorating the 100th anniversary of key events from WWI, for example, these last several years.  It's too distant now and few remember the Battle of the Somme, for example, despite it killing or wounding @ 1 million men.

 

 

 

 

I think that is because the US forces were not even at the first battle of Somme iirc

 

WW1 was horrific but we were dragged into that too... it wasn’t ours to fight and as time goes by memories fade

 

WW2 wasn’t ours either until December 7th and we were forced to join

Edited December 7, 2018 by Buffalo716

[CowgirlsFan]

I remember ?

 

My flag is waving on my porch. ??

 

 

[whatdrought]

6 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  Sadly, a date that is of little interest to many people today.  

 

 

 

[RochesterRob]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

I think that is because the US forces were not even at the first battle of Somme iirc

 

WW1 was horrific but we were dragged into that too... it wasn’t ours to fight and as time goes by memories fade

 

WW2 wasn’t ours either until December 7th and we were forced to join

  Zimmerman telegram and the Lusitania were less dramatic events than Pearl Harbor.  The Lusitania might have been the powder keg to set us off but almost right after the sinking it came to light it was hauling a very substantial amount of military cargo.  My feeling in light of what took place that it was really the US being uncomfortable with Germany being a predominant military power.  Britain and France were known quantities and known attitudes when it came to the US so the US was comfortable with the status quo as it was prior to WWI.

Edited December 7, 2018 by RochesterRob

[Buffalo716]

38 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  Zimmerman telegram and the Lusitania were less dramatic events than Pearl Harbor.  The Lusitania might have been the powder keg to set us off but almost right after the sinking it came to light it was hauling a very substantial amount of military cargo.  My feeling in light of what took place that it was really the US being uncomfortable with Germany being a predominant military power.  Britain and France were known quantities and known attitudes when it came to the US so the US was comfortable with the status quo as it was prior to WWI.

And there is a whole bunch of questions surrounding the Lusitania... But that was a war fought because of royal families 

 

King George, Kaiser Wilhelm , and Czar Nicholas all first cousins

 

something the United States doesn’t like to deal with

Edited December 7, 2018 by Buffalo716

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

For the first time there will be no survivors attending the anniversary. There are only five left and they are all to old/infirmed to attend.

[RochesterRob]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

And there is a whole bunch of questions surrounding the Lusitania... But that was a war fought because of royal families 

 

something the United States doesn’t like to deal with

  Yeah, when it gets right down to it the war was the result of a pissing match between the Kaiser and his English cousins.  The Germans just kept tripping themselves up at every opportunity it seemed.  When first presented the Zimmerman Telegram was taken so lightly due to the empty promise nature of the proposal that the Americans initially dismissed it as a mistake in text or at worst subterfuge by the Brits.  Zimmerman nearly had it made if he had left it alone but then he had to open his mouth to let the Americans know it was real.  At that point it was rapidly all downhill for the Germans.  

[Buffalo716]

Just now, RochesterRob said:

  Yeah, when it gets right down to it the war was the result of a pissing match between the Kaiser and his English cousins.  The Germans just kept tripping themselves up at every opportunity it seemed.  When first presented the Zimmerman Telegram was taken so lightly due to the empty promise nature of the proposal that the Americans initially dismissed it as a mistake in text or at worst subterfuge by the Brits.  Zimmerman nearly had it made if he had left it alone but then he had to open his mouth to let the Americans know it was real.  At that point it was rapidly all downhill for the Germans.  

They were also cousins with czar Nicholas but yep yep 

[RochesterRob]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

They were also cousins with czar Nicholas but yep yep 

Czar Nicholas probably made out the worst on a personal basis.

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

Czar Nicholas probably made out the worst on a personal basis.

I would say so 

[RochesterRob]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

I would say so 

  Yeah, it does not get any worse than being murdered in the midst of a revolution that was inspired in large part by your family.  

[NoHuddleKelly12]

3 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

That's perfectly natural. 

As WWII passes out of living memory, it will become more and more distant.

 

I didn't see many threads here commemorating the 100th anniversary of key events from WWI, for example, these last several years.  It's too distant now and few remember the Battle of the Somme, for example, despite it killing or wounding @ 1 million men.

 

 

 

 

Agreed. But I also feel like the encore being even worse from a numbers scale 20+ years later overshadows the first one to the point that it is naturally focused on less in pop culture. Had it stood alone as a world war, I’m sure it would still get even more attention than it has. 

[mead107]

5 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Got to tour the site while on an anniversary trip to Oahu, and it is nuts how "right there" the ships are under the waterline--you can literally almost see everything it's that low. That and the fuel oil bubbles that periodically come up if you're paying attention. IIRC, the legend is that they will stop leaking oil when the last survivor joins his brothers on the other side. It was a moving and powerful experience, highly recommend. 

Did it in 2009. Very moving.   

Everyone one should have it on the bucket list. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

4 hours ago, row_33 said:

 

it was tough getting them to talk about it

 

i had to craft extremely respectful good questions to get a decent answer

 

glad I did it a few times

 

 

It's because they weren't raised in an entitlement, L.A.M.P. world... No mater what they went through.

 

You heard the story of H.W. Bush, and what his mother drilled into his head.  Totally lacking in today's LAMP & entitlement, Snowflake Society.

 

"He was raised not to gloat, no matter how much it might have been tempting to gloat," former Secretary of State Colin Powell, a retired general and former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under Bush, told NPR.

 

Don't Brag!

 

Humility

 

 

[row_33]

21 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

It's because they weren't raised in an entitlement, L.A.M.P. world... No mater what they went through.

 

You heard the story of H.W. Bush, and what his mother drilled into his head.  Totally lacking in today's LAMP & entitlement, Snowflake Society.

 

"He was raised not to gloat, no matter how much it might have been tempting to gloat," former Secretary of State Colin Powell, a retired general and former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under Bush, told NPR.

 

Don't Brag!

 

Humility

 

 

 

the one that got away was a friend's grandpa who was a Soviet tank commander at Kursk, pictures were cool over the fireplace

 

he just sat there in a rocking chair on the porch, quietly, all summer long

 

what i would ask him now...

 

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by row_33

[DC Tom]

1 hour ago, row_33 said:

 

the one that got away was a friend's grandpa who was a Soviet tank commander at Kursk, pictures were cool over the fireplace

 

he just sat there in a rocking chair on the porch, quietly, all summer long

 

what i would ask him now...

 

 

 

Geez, the ***** he must have seen...

 

I've had the good fortune to talk with:

A veteran of Tassafaronga (look it up) from the USS Houston.

A veteran of Okinawa - served on a DE in the Navy, which basically means he was fighting kamikazes for a month straight.

Gunther Rall - third-highest scoring fighter ace ever, and commander of the post-war German Luftwaffe.  Interesting guy.  Nice guy for a Nazi.

Harry Crosby - lead navigator for the 100th BG, 8th Air Force.  

A veteran who fought in the Bulge as a platoon sergeant, stayed in after the war, got an officer's commission, then fought in Korea as a lieutenant.  

10 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  Sadly, a date that is of little interest to many people today.  

 

Neither is February 15th, which was far more important.

[/dev/null]

4 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  Yeah, when it gets right down to it the war was the result of a pissing match between the Kaiser and his English cousins.  The Germans just kept tripping themselves up at every opportunity it seemed.  When first presented the Zimmerman Telegram was taken so lightly due to the empty promise nature of the proposal that the Americans initially dismissed it as a mistake in text or at worst subterfuge by the Brits.  Zimmerman nearly had it made if he had left it alone but then he had to open his mouth to let the Americans know it was real.  At that point it was rapidly all downhill for the Germans.  

 

Actually a case could be made that WWI was the Russians fault.  After the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand the Austro Hungarian Empire was threatening the Serbs and it was the Russians that first mobilized for war.

 

When the Austro Hungarians attacked Serbia the Russians attacked the Austro Hungarians

The Austro Hungarians were aligned with Germany, who was treaty bound to attack Russia

The Russians were aligned with France, who was treaty bound to attack Germany

Germany had punked down France a few decades previously so they already knew the fastest way to get to Paris was thru Belgium, who had a treaty with the United Kingdom

[RochesterRob]

1 hour ago, /dev/null said:

 

Actually a case could be made that WWI was the Russians fault.  After the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand the Austro Hungarian Empire was threatening the Serbs and it was the Russians that first mobilized for war.

 

When the Austro Hungarians attacked Serbia the Russians attacked the Austro Hungarians

The Austro Hungarians were aligned with Germany, who was treaty bound to attack Russia

The Russians were aligned with France, who was treaty bound to attack Germany

Germany had punked down France a few decades previously so they already knew the fastest way to get to Paris was thru Belgium, who had a treaty with the United Kingdom

  Excellent summary from the standpoint of the major European players against one another.  I was just looking at the jump-in point for the US.  I was reading up about Kaiser Wilhelm earlier tonight.  Just the wrong man to be at the hub of everything leading up to the war.  Nonetheless, I felt a little sorry for him as much of Europe had almost a bigoted view of a potent Germany before the war.  Bismarck had his issues but probably had a better vision of what Germany should have accomplished to open the 20th Century.

[The Senator]

13 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  Sadly, a date that is of little interest to many people today.  

 

Like today, I commemorate every Pearl Harbor day with a rousing chorus of “Anchors Aweigh”, a Pearl  Harbor cocktail, and a toast to our fallen sailors.

.

[Marv's Neighbor]

On 12/7/2018 at 11:57 AM, RochesterRob said:

  I'm a little concerned as to the future of the Arizona and Utah memorial sites.  Visits to the Arizona Memorial have been suspended due to structural problems and the ship itself has structural fatigue issues.  I would like to think that it is inconceivable that the Arizona would be cut up and moved but you don't how the people of the future will feel about a crumbling wreck that by a lot of estimates still has half a million gallons of fuel oil aboard.  The USS Texas is not fairing a whole lot better with itself having structural fatigue issues and the salt water of the Gulf of Mexico making further damage.  Should have been placed at a Northern freshwater site.  USS Pennsylvania should have been considered for preservation but I understand it would have come at great cost at a time when most Americans wanted to put the war behind them.

The USS Arizona site was closed last May but is "planned" to re-open in March 2019.  That's great news because initially, they didn't know if it could be repaired, or would ever re-open.

[RochesterRob]

43 minutes ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

The USS Arizona site was closed last May but is "planned" to re-open in March 2019.  That's great news because initially, they didn't know if it could be repaired, or would ever re-open.

  Glad to hear as I heard a similar assessment in that there was great doubt that the memorial would re-open.  

[/dev/null]

4 hours ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

The USS Arizona site was closed last May but is "planned" to re-open in March 2019.  That's great news because initially, they didn't know if it could be repaired, or would ever re-open.

 

But even more disheartening is that for the first time no USS Arizona survivors could attend this years remembrance, with only five survivors left

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uss-arizona-survivors-miss-pearl-harbor-remembrance-for-first-time/

[row_33]

On 12/7/2018 at 5:27 PM, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Agreed. But I also feel like the encore being even worse from a numbers scale 20+ years later overshadows the first one to the point that it is naturally focused on less in pop culture. Had it stood alone as a world war, I’m sure it would still get even more attention than it has. 

 

Mad Men told us nobody could have cared less that wasn’t a part of it, even in 1964

 

 

[Marv's Neighbor]

20 hours ago, /dev/null said:

 

But even more disheartening is that for the first time no USS Arizona survivors could attend this years remembrance, with only five survivors left

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uss-arizona-survivors-miss-pearl-harbor-remembrance-for-first-time/

I worked with a guy, 20+ years ago, maybe 20 years older than me, at the time, who told me that his Dad took him to Gettysburg when he was a kid, where he met some Civil War vets.  That's a long time ago but sadly they do all eventually pass away, and that's where we now stand with WWII.

[row_33]

On 12/7/2018 at 6:08 PM, ExiledInIllinois said:

It's because they weren't raised in an entitlement, L.A.M.P. world... No mater what they went through.

 

You heard the story of H.W. Bush, and what his mother drilled into his head.  Totally lacking in today's LAMP & entitlement, Snowflake Society.

 

"He was raised not to gloat, no matter how much it might have been tempting to gloat," former Secretary of State Colin Powell, a retired general and former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under Bush, told NPR.

 

Don't Brag!

 

Humility

 

 

 

actually they weren't in any fighting, they mopping up and/or admin, or stayed in North America, so there weren't any stories except for the misery of friends getting killed by friendly fire or training or accidents

 

 

[Wacka]

My dad was stationed there in  1948-49 (Korean War).It was a nice calm  posting then. He was on the crash crew at the strip , but they didn't have a single problem landing during his time there.  Back then, the superstructure was still sticking up out of the water and their barracks on Ford Island still had bullet holes  from the attack  (so they would never forget). My parents visited there in 1985  and  where the barracks were located were  retired officer's houses.