Pegula Sports & Entertainment Hires CAA ICON to Conduct a Feasibility Study for a Potential New Bills Stadium or Major Renovations to New Era Field

[jrober38]

20 minutes ago, PittsforDave said:

Think of it as an initiation fee for your country club. My course, the initiation fee is potentially considerable.  

 

You have to pay to become part of the group. 

 

 

 

Greater Buffalo's median income is $53,000.

 

Minneapolis' median income is $73,000. 

 

Hard to imagine a place like Buffalo putting up $2500 per seat license on a 65,000 seat stadium, and then paying for tickets that double in value.

 

I get what you're saying about the Country Club. The issue is that it's meant to be exclusive. That's not a sustainable business model for an NFL team operating in a low income market. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by jrober38

[PittsforDave]

5 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Greater Buffalo's median income is $53,000.

 

Minneapolis' median income is $73,000. 

 

Hard to imagine a place like Buffalo putting up $2500 per seat license on a 65,000 seat stadium, and then paying for tickets that double in value.

 

I get what you're saying about the Country Club. The issue is that it's meant to be exclusive. That's not a sustainable business model for an NFL team operating in a low income market. 

Good points. 

 

Didn’t realize Buffalo was so low income. $53000 average is very low.  What are these employers doing?

 

I see why welfare ticket prices exist, they’re  not sustainable without them. 

[zonabb]

Getcha wallets ready Erie County and NY taxpayers. Any consultant hired is going to recommend that his client gets "help" from taxpayers. And given that the two milquetoast, pro-corporation, lovers of transfers of wealth from taxpayers wallets to the ultra rich politicians have known this was coming per their statements today, you can bet that they've been apprised of the coming "ask" and will be "on board" with the consultants unquestioned analysis. 

 

Here's what I bet $1,000 the consultant recommends about the Bills, so save this for posterity, but also with some assumptions that are necessary to understand:

 

1. That this teams is clearly profitable now, with zero stadium debt, having bought the team for cash. It is worth by some accounts $2B, leaving the Pegulas with a substantial short term return on their investment in the hundreds of millions. Operating costs (inc. player salaries) are likely covered by the TV revenue alone. 

2. A new stadium would require debt service on the part of the Pegulas as they likely do not have $1B (hypothetical) in cash to make this purchase. 

3. If they did have cash, there are opportunity costs to consider. For them, investing that $1B in an investment that returns say even 5% annually is a better use of that money than investing in a stadium that declines in value, has high operating costs, and requires annual maintenance. Even with depreciation, it's a bad investment. 

4. That the City has been part of this portends where this is going.

 

These three issues are key to even understanding why this team would consider this study,. It is clear the city and county have been put on notice that this is happening and this is a logical step in forcing governments to get ready to cough up cash.

 

So here's what the report will say...

 

1. It won't say business as usual is OK but rather the team needs to keep up with the Krafts and Jones of the NFL.

2. A remodel of the stadium is feasible but the cost will come in very close to a new stadium.

3. A new stadium is feasible and preferred but the cost will exceed renovation of the current stadium. Given #4 above, the location will be somewhere in the City. 

4. Any investment by the Pegulas reduces their profitability and they can't do that... this is the economic development game where taxpayers get the honor of supporting billionaires

5. The govts have to help, ignoring the value of the asset, the worth of the owners, and the ability of taxpayers to pay. And more specifically, they have to help because the Pegulas can't carry the debt service and maintain existing levels of profitability. This probably won't be explicit n the report but implied. They'll want to capture all the increase in ticket and club seat and box tickets without having to pay more out of their pocket. It's socialized debt, privatized profit.

6. The report in full will never be made public, despite it's reliance on public dollars to achieve its recommendations. The above "highlights" will be pushed out instead because it's paid for by a private entity and therefore only the key recommendations that tell us to get out wallerts out will be made available.

 

The report is merely the token effort necessary to "justify" the continued taxpayer support for the NFL. 

 

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, PittsforDave said:

Good points. 

 

Didn’t realize Buffalo was so low income. $53000 average is very low.  What are these employers doing?

 

I see why welfare ticket prices exist, they’re  not sustainable without them. 

 

There's a reason the tickets are already as cheap as they are. Buffalo draws from all over WNY and Southern Ontario, but the team always has issues selling tickets late in the season.

 

The #1 priority for any stadium plan needs to involve a dome. You have to make the games in late November and December as appealing as games earlier in the season by removing the elements. People can talk about how much they love the games being outdoors, but reality is that you lose a massive portion of the population who simply aren't going to hang out outside for 6-8 hours in miserable weather (seniors, children, some women). 

[BidsJr]

14 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Greater Buffalo's median income is $53,000.

 

Minneapolis' median income is $73,000. 

 

Hard to imagine a place like Buffalo putting up $2500 per seat license on a 65,000 seat stadium, and then paying for tickets that double in value.

 

I get what you're saying about the Country Club. The issue is that it's meant to be exclusive. That's not a sustainable business model for an NFL team operating in a low income market. 

This is in no way an apples to apples comparison.  Minneapolis St Paul is probably 5-10x the population at that increased income level.  It is far worse demographics than $53 vs $73k.  It is more like 500k at $53 vs 3million @ $73k.

 

Humongous difference.

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, BidsJr said:

This is in no way an apples to apples comparison.  Minneapolis St Paul is probably 5-10x the population at that increased income level.  It is far worse demographics than $53 vs $73k.  It is more like 500k at $53 vs 3million @ $73k.

 

Humongous difference.

 

Great point.

 

Greater Minneapolis = 3.9 million residents.

 

Greater Buffalo = 1.1 million residents.

 

Buffalo has got to be one of the smallest markets in the NFL. 

[buffalobillsfootball]

10 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

Great point.

 

Greater Minneapolis = 3.9 million residents.

 

Greater Buffalo = 1.1 million residents.

 

Buffalo has got to be one of the smallest markets in the NFL. 

 

True - Buffalo is SMALL if we only consider the population in the US but let's not forget the huge and growing population in Southern Ontario.  If we could include the population south of Hamilton - the Buffalo metro is considerably MUCH larger and more competitive.

 

 

[May Day 10]

Its larger, but we still lack the white collar/fortune 500 corporate backing and suite/amenity purchasing power.  Relying on corporations from Toronto to spend big on a Buffalo team an hour away (much more with GTA and bameday traffic/border) is fantasy.

 

A low-frills stadium focused on football game watching is what is desired.  There is certainly going to be comfort features installed.... but the level of things we see in Atlanta, Minnesota, Dallas, or SF would be a monstrous waste of money and space.  

[PetermansRedemption]

New York already takes much more than they should in taxes and gives me very little benefit back. They are just going to squander it anyways, might as well have something tangible in the area to show for it. 

[dollars 2 donuts]

1 hour ago, May Day 10 said:

Its larger, but we still lack the white collar/fortune 500 corporate backing and suite/amenity purchasing power.  Relying on corporations from Toronto to spend big on a Buffalo team an hour away (much more with GTA and bameday traffic/border) is fantasy.

 

A low-frills stadium focused on football game watching is what is desired.  There is certainly going to be comfort features installed.... but the level of things we see in Atlanta, Minnesota, Dallas, or SF would be a monstrous waste of money and space.  

 

 

I'm sorry, May Day, but you seemed to have failed to see my earlier post wherein I mentioned the new digs would be named "Duff's and Rootie's Blue Cheese Stadium."

 

[RyanC883]

22 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Agreed that whatever weather factor there once was is overrated, and gone. A covered stadium is in order, but 70k seats is too many. The place should seat around 60k for demand/ pricing power. The whole point of a new stadium is increase corporate revenue and to be able to charge true market rate for general tickets. The current facility doesn’t support this. It has too many seats and outdated amenities.  



 

I can see the 60K point, but I think we can fill a 70K seat dome for a few reasons while still having pricing/increased revenue: 1.  more people will come to a dome game; 2.  the lux boxes at the stadium will be much better than at the Ralph, driving more corporate investment.  But I'd be fine with 60K. 

[buffalobillsfootball]

1 hour ago, May Day 10 said:

Its larger, but we still lack the white collar/fortune 500 corporate backing and suite/amenity purchasing power.  Relying on corporations from Toronto to spend big on a Buffalo team an hour away (much more with GTA and bameday traffic/border) is fantasy.

 

A low-frills stadium focused on football game watching is what is desired.  There is certainly going to be comfort features installed.... but the level of things we see in Atlanta, Minnesota, Dallas, or SF would be a monstrous waste of money and space.  

 

Agreed... yet at the end of the day - the current stadium will not last forever and will need to be replaced.... and when it does get replaced - moving it closer to the urban core and the Canadian border makes all too much sense.

 

ps: no one is calling for Jerry World... and Levi Field is nothing special

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by buffalobillsfootball

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[buffalobillsfootball]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

 

It's a no brainer...

[oldmanfan]

Now that you have owners committed to Buffalo for the long term, it would be the time to think bold strategies.  Here is what I'd be presenting to governments on both sides of the border:

 

I would ask for NYS and Ontario to pony up money not just for a stadium, but for design and development of rapid transit systems connecting downtown Buffalo (including the Southtowns), Toronto, and Niagara Falls.   The Niagara Frontier region could be turned into one huge tourist mecca, both in warmer and colder months. 

 

Let's say you have a long weekend in September and you could get around to each of these areas within 30 minutes by rapid rail.  You come in on a Friday, maybe take the rail up to the Falls and experience that.  Stay the night there, then rapid rail to spend Saturday in Toronto, take in a show, do some shopping, see the Metro Zoo or Science Center, Yonge Street, and such.  Maybe go to Niagara on the Lake (my daughter is a performer, and she tells me that's a highly sought gig).   Get on the rapid rail and come to downtown Buffalo for a concert that night and get dinner or wings.  Sunday you're at the Bills game and rapid transit to the airport and out.

 

Now let's say it's February.  Pretty similar, but maybe you rail down to the Southtowns for skiing or snow mobiling or such.  Go to a Sabres game instead of the Bills.  Maybe take in the Albright-Know, or check out some of the famous architecture in Buffalo.

 

The one thing I'd do different than putting a stadium in downtown would be to gut a lot of Niagara Falls downtown and put the stadium there, with overlooks of the Falls.  But I alos get focusing every thing downtown.

 

Do this right, and the entire region could become a real destination and bring loads of cash to the area as a whole. 

 

 

 

 

[buffalobillsfootball]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Now that you have owners committed to Buffalo for the long term, it would be the time to think bold strategies.  Here is what I'd be presenting to governments on both sides of the border:

 

I would ask for NYS and Ontario to pony up money not just for a stadium, but for design and development of rapid transit systems connecting downtown Buffalo (including the Southtowns), Toronto, and Niagara Falls.   The Niagara Frontier region could be turned into one huge tourist mecca, both in warmer and colder months. 

 

Let's say you have a long weekend in September and you could get around to each of these areas within 30 minutes by rapid rail.  You come in on a Friday, maybe take the rail up to the Falls and experience that.  Stay the night there, then rapid rail to spend Saturday in Toronto, take in a show, do some shopping, see the Metro Zoo or Science Center, Yonge Street, and such.  Maybe go to Niagara on the Lake (my daughter is a performer, and she tells me that's a highly sought gig).   Get on the rapid rail and come to downtown Buffalo for a concert that night and get dinner or wings.  Sunday you're at the Bills game and rapid transit to the airport and out.

 

Now let's say it's February.  Pretty similar, but maybe you rail down to the Southtowns for skiing or snow mobiling or such.  Go to a Sabres game instead of the Bills.  Maybe take in the Albright-Know, or check out some of the famous architecture in Buffalo.

 

The one thing I'd do different than putting a stadium in downtown would be to gut a lot of Niagara Falls downtown and put the stadium there, with overlooks of the Falls.  But I alos get focusing every thing downtown.

 

Do this right, and the entire region could become a real destination and bring loads of cash to the area as a whole. 

 

 

 

 

 

Like your thinking - big time.  This is where the Pegula's need to flex their muscle and influence both here in the states and Ontario (if they have any)...

 

 

[RochesterRob]

2 hours ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

 

True - Buffalo is SMALL if we only consider the population in the US but let's not forget the huge and growing population in Southern Ontario.  If we could include the population south of Hamilton - the Buffalo metro is considerably MUCH larger and more competitive.

 

 

  HIs perspective is lacking for whatever reason.  Just in New York there is 3 million people west of I-81 (Watertown, Syracuse, Binghamton) that could be considered potential customers along with 250,000-300,000 in NW PA.  At least a couple million people in Southern Ontario so the customer base approaches 6 million people.  If he discounts people here as not being potential customers then you have to do the same in Minn-St P.  Not all of those 73,000 dollar households will be buyers of Vikings tickets or gear.

44 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Now that you have owners committed to Buffalo for the long term, it would be the time to think bold strategies.  Here is what I'd be presenting to governments on both sides of the border:

 

I would ask for NYS and Ontario to pony up money not just for a stadium, but for design and development of rapid transit systems connecting downtown Buffalo (including the Southtowns), Toronto, and Niagara Falls.   The Niagara Frontier region could be turned into one huge tourist mecca, both in warmer and colder months. 

 

Let's say you have a long weekend in September and you could get around to each of these areas within 30 minutes by rapid rail.  You come in on a Friday, maybe take the rail up to the Falls and experience that.  Stay the night there, then rapid rail to spend Saturday in Toronto, take in a show, do some shopping, see the Metro Zoo or Science Center, Yonge Street, and such.  Maybe go to Niagara on the Lake (my daughter is a performer, and she tells me that's a highly sought gig).   Get on the rapid rail and come to downtown Buffalo for a concert that night and get dinner or wings.  Sunday you're at the Bills game and rapid transit to the airport and out.

 

Now let's say it's February.  Pretty similar, but maybe you rail down to the Southtowns for skiing or snow mobiling or such.  Go to a Sabres game instead of the Bills.  Maybe take in the Albright-Know, or check out some of the famous architecture in Buffalo.

 

The one thing I'd do different than putting a stadium in downtown would be to gut a lot of Niagara Falls downtown and put the stadium there, with overlooks of the Falls.  But I alos get focusing every thing downtown.

 

Do this right, and the entire region could become a real destination and bring loads of cash to the area as a whole. 

 

 

 

 

  Nobody is just going to put down money out of the goodness of their heart when it comes to political entities.  Best to plan for no help and be pleasantly surprised when it does come versus expecting 100's of millions for associated costs and have your hand hanging you know where expecting it will come.  Orchard Park may be awkward in its layout but it is essentially complete and those savings will loom very large as any project gets worked out.

Edited November 28, 2018 by RochesterRob

[Reed83HOF]

1 hour ago, RyanC883 said:

 

I can see the 60K point, but I think we can fill a 70K seat dome for a few reasons while still having pricing/increased revenue: 1.  more people will come to a dome game; 2.  the lux boxes at the stadium will be much better than at the Ralph, driving more corporate investment.  But I'd be fine with 60K. 

Field a good team and the fans will fill whatever size stadium we build...

[Royale with Cheese]

$540 million to repair the structure in the upper deck at New Era?  Yeah I wouldn't consider that wise move.  New stadium sounds pretty much a no brainer right now.

[RochesterRob]

6 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Field a good team and the fans will fill whatever size stadium we build...

  I would error to the large side but not much past 70,000 seats.

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  I would error to the large side but not much past 70,000 seats.

I do agree that 68k-70k is a good size...and LOL I should have said at a reasonable price point as far as tickets as well

[Boatdrinks]

4 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  I would error to the large side but not much past 70,000 seats.

Nope, too many seats for the market. Part of the reason for the current welfare ticket prices. 

[RochesterRob]

3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Nope, too many seats for the market. Part of the reason for the current welfare ticket prices. 

  This all changes with a few consecutive successful seasons.  I loved Ralph but he was the single biggest reason for the underperformance at the ticket window.  If the Pegula's have their people now and treat them right people will see that they are committed to winning.  Ticket holders will come from 100 miles in all directions creating upward pressure on ticket prices.  It's not just about winning but commitment as well.  Ralph laid the egg too many times with Saban, Knox, Polian, etc. and people were just put off by that.

[The Firebaugh Kid]

14 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

Personally, I think the league and the team is crazy as the fan experience at the current stadium is fine.

Its also unique. I despise the idea of a downtown stadium. You just dumped 130 million into NEF. Add some bathrooms and a retractable roof and call it good

[Augie]

16 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

$540 million to repair the structure in the upper deck at New Era?  Yeah I wouldn't consider that wise move.  New stadium sounds pretty much a no brainer right now.

 

Sorry, but I skipped ahead (and of course I’ll to lazy to search the entire thread). Is the $540 for real???  That would in fact make that seem like a no brainier. That’s just the upper deck??? Yikes! 

[Boatdrinks]

7 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  This all changes with a few consecutive successful seasons.  I loved Ralph but he was the single biggest reason for the underperformance at the ticket window.  If the Pegula's have their people now and treat them right people will see that they are committed to winning.  Ticket holders will come from 100 miles in all directions creating upward pressure on ticket prices.  It's not just about winning but commitment as well.  Ralph laid the egg too many times with Saban, Knox, Polian, etc. and people were just put off by that.

Winning is cyclical in the NFL and extremely fickle. It’s fine to base a business strategy on consistently winning in the rare instance that your team has Tom Brady under contract. Aside from that situation, you simply cannot bank on league domination. The current scenario includes a stadium with too much capacity combined with spartan amenities and no climate control. Any new stadium should drastically change that equation. Pricing power will come with a combination of fewer seats and improved amenities plus climate control to attract a deep pocket fan in the best seats that currently resides in their own living room on Sundays. 

[buffalobillsfootball]

12 minutes ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

Its also unique. I despise the idea of a downtown stadium. You just dumped 130 million into NEF. Add some bathrooms and a retractable roof and call it good

Lipstick on a pig.

 

No one is going to invest $500M on a stadium in the middle of no where.

[Boatdrinks]

13 minutes ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

Its also unique. I despise the idea of a downtown stadium. You just dumped 130 million into NEF. Add some bathrooms and a retractable roof and call it good

And the County could have done a much more drastic overhaul that was on the table at the time. A full renovation for around 550 million. Seems like chump change now, but they chose the cheaper window dressing option. So here they are. 

2 minutes ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

Lipstick on a pig.

 

No one is going to invest $500M on a stadium in the middle of no where.

Yep. That’s what the last “ improvement “ was. You still can’t make a silk purse from a sow’s ear. 

[jrober38]

3 hours ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

 

True - Buffalo is SMALL if we only consider the population in the US but let's not forget the huge and growing population in Southern Ontario.  If we could include the population south of Hamilton - the Buffalo metro is considerably MUCH larger and more competitive.

 

 

 

There aren't many season ticket holders in Southern Ontario.

 

There are lots of young guys who like to go down on a bus once a year and get really messed up, but not much of a fan base who would ever be willing to go to games on a weekly basis.

 

Anyone 25 or younger never watched the Bills when they were good in the early 90s. They grew up watching other teams who were successful in the early 2000s and picked their allegiance a long time ago. 

 

Baring the Bills getting a transcendent talent who they could market to the Toronto market, the odds of Buffalo picking up many new fans from Toronto isn't very good. Most of their Toronto fans are 35+ and settling down with families and not looking to go to Buffalo 8 times a year. 

[May Day 10]

21 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Winning is cyclical in the NFL and extremely fickle. It’s fine to base a business strategy on consistently winning in the rare instance that your team has Tom Brady under contract. Aside from that situation, you simply cannot bank on league domination. The current scenario includes a stadium with too much capacity combined with spartan amenities and no climate control. Any new stadium should drastically change that equation. Pricing power will come with a combination of fewer seats and improved amenities plus climate control to attract a deep pocket fan in the best seats that currently resides in their own living room on Sundays. 

 

 

It hasnt been cyclical here, which has been the problem.  It has been pretty much 20 years of not being relevant/competitive, and not hosting a playoff game in 22 years.  There are adults approaching 30 years old who have no memory of a home playoff game.

 

Other than 2 hot starts that everyone deep-down knew were fluky, the last 6 games of 2004 where they played the bottom 5 teams in the NFL consecutively, and a late season push where they kind of stole a last wildcard spot by virtue of another team's miracle play, there has been nothing.  

 

Give us one season where the Bills have a 7-2 start that turns into a 11-5 season, a Division title and a home playoff game (or even a bye), leading into another and tickets would be near impossible to come by without paying well above face value.  The relevancy would sustain them throughout a few off years.  Much like the Sabres' runs of 05-07.  Struggling and cheap ticket sales become the hottest ticket in town.  Tickets undervalued, large waiting list, and it sustained them while they increased prices steadily.  If the Bills get relevant, it would be huge as there is a generation of fans who have increasing buying power and free time who have no idea what its like.

 

On the flip side, there are adults in New England who know nothing other than NFL games arent really important until the Conference Championship game.  

Edited November 28, 2018 by May Day 10

[RochesterRob]

4 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Winning is cyclical in the NFL and extremely fickle. It’s fine to base a business strategy on consistently winning in the rare instance that your team has Tom Brady under contract. Aside from that situation, you simply cannot bank on league domination. The current scenario includes a stadium with too much capacity combined with spartan amenities and no climate control. Any new stadium should drastically change that equation. Pricing power will come with a combination of fewer seats and improved amenities plus climate control to attract a deep pocket fan in the best seats that currently resides in their own living room on Sundays. 

  I think that most people understand that winning is cyclical.  They don't want to see a partially built house in terms of a team such as when Ralph refused to complete his 1970's team or allow Polian to go get Keith Jackson from the Eagles or Ray Childress from the Oliers during the SB era.  When rebuilding in OP got to be an issue people realized that Ralph was never going to change and were only going to invest only so much themselves during the season.  As far as Brady goes the minute you bank on him for things such as stadium is when he has a career ending injury or father time catches him early on.  People have been so spoiled by the current regime in NE that when they fall on hard times people will stay home.  It happened with the Dolphins post Marino-Shula, The Raiders, and down the line.  A long stretch of greatness is fine but there is a price to be paid in that people don't readily take to disappointment after those times so attendance slumps disproportionately.

[Boatdrinks]

6 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

There aren't many season ticket holders in Southern Ontario.

 

There are lots of young guys who like to go down on a bus once a year and get really messed up, but not much of a fan base who would ever be willing to go to games on a weekly basis.

 

Anyone 25 or younger never watched the Bills when they were good in the early 90s. They grew up watching other teams who were successful in the early 2000s and picked their allegiance a long time ago. 

 

Baring the Bills getting a transcendent talent who they could market to the Toronto market, the odds of Buffalo picking up many new fans from Toronto isn't very good. Most of their Toronto fans are 35+ and settling down with families and not looking to go to Buffalo 8 times a year. 

The Bills claim that s substantial portion of their season ticket base comes from southern Ontario and Rochester. 

[May Day 10]

4 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  I think that most people understand that winning is cyclical.  They don't want to see a partially built house in terms of a team such as when Ralph refused to complete his 1970's team or allow Polian to go get Keith Jackson from the Eagles or Ray Childress from the Oliers during the SB era.  When rebuilding in OP got to be an issue people realized that Ralph was never going to change and were only going to invest only so much themselves during the season.  As far as Brady goes the minute you bank on him for things such as stadium is when he has a career ending injury or father time catches him early on.  People have been so spoiled by the current regime in NE that when they fall on hard times people will stay home.  It happened with the Dolphins post Marino-Shula, The Raiders, and down the line.  A long stretch of greatness is fine but there is a price to be paid in that people don't readily take to disappointment after those times so attendance slumps disproportionately.

 

This is a point I like to make from time to time.  

 

I always look at the Detroit Red Wings and Atlanta Braves.  I believe we even suffered a bit from it in the mid 90s, but that was a different time before internet ticket sales, social media, and such

 

You need to feel deprivation to some point and the "cycle" is a good thing.  Wait until the Sabres or Bills host a playoff game.  It will be a wild scene

Edited November 28, 2018 by May Day 10

[jrober38]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Now that you have owners committed to Buffalo for the long term, it would be the time to think bold strategies.  Here is what I'd be presenting to governments on both sides of the border:

 

I would ask for NYS and Ontario to pony up money not just for a stadium, but for design and development of rapid transit systems connecting downtown Buffalo (including the Southtowns), Toronto, and Niagara Falls.   The Niagara Frontier region could be turned into one huge tourist mecca, both in warmer and colder months. 

 

Let's say you have a long weekend in September and you could get around to each of these areas within 30 minutes by rapid rail.  You come in on a Friday, maybe take the rail up to the Falls and experience that.  Stay the night there, then rapid rail to spend Saturday in Toronto, take in a show, do some shopping, see the Metro Zoo or Science Center, Yonge Street, and such.  Maybe go to Niagara on the Lake (my daughter is a performer, and she tells me that's a highly sought gig).   Get on the rapid rail and come to downtown Buffalo for a concert that night and get dinner or wings.  Sunday you're at the Bills game and rapid transit to the airport and out.

 

Now let's say it's February.  Pretty similar, but maybe you rail down to the Southtowns for skiing or snow mobiling or such.  Go to a Sabres game instead of the Bills.  Maybe take in the Albright-Know, or check out some of the famous architecture in Buffalo.

 

The one thing I'd do different than putting a stadium in downtown would be to gut a lot of Niagara Falls downtown and put the stadium there, with overlooks of the Falls.  But I alos get focusing every thing downtown.

 

Do this right, and the entire region could become a real destination and bring loads of cash to the area as a whole. 

 

 

 

 

 

This is well intentioned but Ontario is dead broke. They're not giving any money to support a sports franchise in a different country. 

 

The economics behind dumping piles of money into a sport that plays 10 games a year has never made any sense. 

 

Toronto is an international city that draws tourists from all over the world. Connecting it to WNY, and a market that probably doesn't send many people to visit and installing services that will cost significant cost in upkeep and wages for the people running the transit systems seems like a proposition that will lose a ton of money for the province. 

 

Buffalo needs to figure out its stadium on its own. Figure out how to build a 65,000 seat stadium right downtown with a roof that can be used 12 months a year, and then figure out how to get 20 events in their each year. Anything more than that isn't happening. 

[RochesterRob]

6 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

The Bills claim that s substantial portion of their season ticket base comes from southern Ontario and Rochester. 

  It's not just a claim but they do get sales in those areas and other areas as well.  People beating the Erie County drum in that no other support is needed are delusional in that the NFL would have never signed off on the Pegula's to buy a team to keep it in a weak small (1.1 million) market.  The Pegula's are expected to grow the fanbase.

[jrober38]

15 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

The Bills claim that s substantial portion of their season ticket base comes from southern Ontario and Rochester. 

 

I don't think this is true.

 

Past estimates during the Bills in Toronto Series (which was largely considered a huge failure) pegged the number of fans at Bills games as roughly 15%. I never saw this figure attached to the number of season ticket holders in Southern Ontario. I think that's just ticket sales, which includes single game purchases. 

 

So for a sell out, the Bills probably get about 10,000 Canadians per game, which seems right. The issue is that many of these Canadians are fans of the other team. 

 

My family has season tickets in the lower bowl near the goal line on the oppositions bench side of the field. Our section is always packed with Canadian away fans who come down to watch their team play against the Bills. Almost all of the New England fans in our section when we play the Pats are from Southern Ontario. 

 

My family has had seasons to almost 30 years. Since around 2000, I haven't met a single Canadian who has them as well. You get tons of people who like going down with a big group of friends or on a bus in November and December when the tickets are cheap, but otherwise there aren't many people who are going down to support the Bills. It's essentially just a spectacle where you get to watch drunk people smash themselves through tables and act like morons, with a football game following the tailgate. 

 

Of the 10,000 Canadians going to each home game, my guess is about half of them are Bills fans. Maybe less. The Bills are mostly just a punch line up here because they've been so bad for so long. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by jrober38

[RochesterRob]

5 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

This is well intentioned but Ontario is dead broke. They're not giving any money to support a sports franchise in a different country. 

 

The economics behind dumping piles of money into a sport that plays 10 games a year has never made any sense. 

 

Toronto is an international city that draws tourists from all over the world. Connecting it to WNY, and a market that probably doesn't send many people to visit and installing services that will cost significant cost in upkeep and wages for the people running the transit systems seems like a proposition that will lose a ton of money for the province. 

 

Buffalo needs to figure out its stadium on its own. Figure out how to build a 65,000 seat stadium right downtown with a roof that can be used 12 months a year, and then figure out how to get 20 events in their each year. Anything more than that isn't happening. 

  People here should be glad that Ontario has been broke as that prevented Rogers from getting the palace he needed to place a team.  Our Bills may have wound up in Toronto as a result.

[buffalobillsfootball]

15 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

 

It hasnt been cyclical here, which has been the problem.  It has been pretty much 20 years of not being relevant/competitive, and not hosting a playoff game in 22 years.

 

Other than 2 hot starts that everyone deep-down knew were fluky, the last 6 games of 2004 where they played the bottom 5 teams in the NFL consecutively, and a late season push where they kind of stole a last wildcard spot by virtue of another team's miracle play, there has been nothing.  

 

Give us one season where the Bills have a 7-2 start that turns into a 11-5 season, a Division title and a home playoff game (or even a bye), leading into another and tickets would be near impossible to come by without paying well above face value.  The relevancy would sustain them throughout a few off years.  Much like the Sabres' runs of 05-07.  Struggling and cheap ticket sales become the hottest ticket in town.  Tickets undervalued, large waiting list, and it sustained them while they increased prices steadily.

 

WIN

WIN

WIN

 

Winning solves everything... and yes, Canadians will come to games for a quality product.

[Mr. WEO]

I'm going to save the Pegulas a boatload on this "study"

.

 

Here it is:  if you're paying, it's feasible.

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, RochesterRob said:

  People here should be glad that Ontario has been broke as that prevented Rogers from getting the palace he needed to place a team.  Our Bills may have wound up in Toronto as a result.

 

Sure.

 

Canada as a whole has next to no history of publicly funding stadiums. The politics of it are way too messy and it's not something politicians can support if they plan on keeping their jobs. 

 

Toronto is never going to be able to build a world class stadium, unless they make an ambitious play to go after the Summer Olympics with the hope that the federal government would pour money into it.

 

Without a unifying event as the reason for building a stadium, there's no way the public can fund a new stadium that would only cater to the "elites" in Toronto.