Josh allen is mcbeans cam newton

[TPS]

9 hours ago, mrags said:

I can’t believe this thread is 2 pages in and I can still get IN...

Give the guy a break, I'm sure it's the first time someone has thought of this comparison....

[Straight Hucklebuck]

11 hours ago, TigerJ said:

I think McDermott and Beane have higher hopes for Josh Allen than Cam Newton''s ceiling.  Yes, they are both big athletic guys, but I think Beane is hoping that Allen will eventually be better at reading defenses and distributing the ball than Newton.

What could the Bills possibly have seen in Josh Allen’s college tape that indicates he could have a higher upside than Cam Newton? 

 

 

[uticaclub]

15 hours ago, Elite Poster said:

Cam lit college football on fire, won the Heisman, and was OPOY of the SEC. 

 

Our guy was not even the best QB in the Mountain West. He better be dynamite next year, the clock is ticking. 

Honorable Mention.  Not even 2nd or 3rd team All-Mountain West

 

Rocky Long, long time NCAA football coach, current SDSU coach has been quoting saying how he’s gameplaned for a lot of QBs & you can tell who has pro potential & he never saw it in Josh Allen

Edited November 10, 2018 by uticaclub

[nedboy7]

Comparing Allen to Cam and saying he has a higher ceiling summarizes the utter insanity on here.  Who is Allen? 

[The_Dude]

You’re spanking your McBeane if you think either of those idiots knows what to do with Josh Allen. 

[starrymessenger]

I'm pretty sure that Beane thinks he saw a Cam clone in Allen. I don't think he based his decision on the notion that Allen has a higher ceiling. I think he will consider it job one well done if Allen can develop into a reasonable facsimili of Cam, and I believe that to be the objective. I don't think Beane reasonably expects Allen ever to be known as an accurate passer the way Drew Bree's is accurate. I think he will be fully satisfied if Allen can become the passer Cam is because with a decent ground game, to which Allen (like Cam) can contribute, a decent O-line and WRs, that will be good enuf as far as the offensive side of things is concerned (in his opinion). 

And that is asking a lot actually. 

[TigerJ]

2 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

What could the Bills possibly have seen in Josh Allen’s college tape that indicates he could have a higher upside than Cam Newton? 

 

 

College tape is only part of the evaluation process.  Interviews are a huge part.  I think fans underestimate their importance.  Then there is the Wonderlic that everybody loves to hate.  I think the powers that be in the NFL have retained the use of the Wonderlic for a reason.

[LSHMEAB]

11 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

These guys hear words and just regurgitate them. Allen has shown nothing as far as reading defenses and distributing the ball better. What does distributing the ball better even really mean? It's just some cliche. 

Sounds like something I'll put on my resume.

 

I played quarterback when I was 12, so basically I was involved in "Sporting Goods Distribution" at quite a young age.

[Elite Poster]

21 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Cam also put up one of the best rookie seasons ever. Allen has looked like a very raw rookie (which isn't unexpected) they only comparable they had are their big frames and insane arm strength. 

 

That being said Allen will be the starting QB next season, hopefully they massively upgrade the offensive talent and adjust the scheme to his strengths and mask his weaknesses. After seeing what he has in 2019 they will make a longer term decision on his future although no matter what he is going to get a shot to be the stater in 2020.

 

If he looks like he did this year, next year, I'm not sure he will be starter in 2020.

[Pirate Angel]

22 hours ago, Elite Poster said:

Cam lit college football on fire, won the Heisman, and was OPOY of the SEC. 

 

Our guy was not even the best QB in the Mountain West. He better be dynamite next year, the clock is ticking. 

Brady wasn't even a full time starter at Michigan and Tebow had the same awards as Cam ..what's your point?

[Elite Poster]

1 hour ago, Tazor Face said:

Brady wasn't even a full time starter at Michigan and Tebow had the same awards as Cam ..what's your point?

 

There's a Tom Brady in every draft right? A broken clock is right twice a day, you still need to replace the batteries to give yourself the best chance to know what time it is...

 

Tebow also couldn't throw a football (isn't that crazy, a QB that sucks at throwing) and was drafted in the first somehow. Tim was more of a playmaker than an arm. 

 

The point is, I can't believe I really have to explain this, that Cam is a ***** comparison to JA as are Brady and Tebow. Anymore excuses?

[Pirate Angel]

7 minutes ago, Elite Poster said:

 

There's a Tom Brady in every draft right? A broken clock is right twice a day, you still need to replace the batteries to give yourself the best chance to know what time it is...

 

Tebow also couldn't throw a football (isn't that crazy, a QB that sucks at throwing) and was drafted in the first somehow. Tim was more of a playmaker than an arm. 

 

The point is, I can't believe I really have to explain this, that Cam is a ***** comparison to JA as are Brady and Tebow. Anymore excuses?

Maybe you should contact the nfl and get an application... The pay millions of dollars for people to analyze potential players, people who routinely get it wrong. I'm sure they would love to have someone so sure of who will be successful in this league

[TigerJ]

22 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

And there it is.

 

22 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

If we're gambling it sounds like you're praying for the 1% chance Allen is better than an MVP quarterback and hoping he's not less than or equal to a MVP quarterback. Cut your losses and stop at "good god thank our lucky stars we have someone as good as Cam" because that's really damn hard to come by. And I'm speaking to McBeane if you're speaking for them.

I'm certainly not saying Josh Allen is better than Cam Newton right now.  I do not know if he will be better some day, though I think the odds of that are considerably better than one percent..  What I'm saying is it is not unreasonable that McBeane believe there is a chance he will be better eventually, which is more in line with the topic of the thread.  After all, the Bills drafted Allen at 6 overall, and traded up to do it.  Newton is a real good QB, and an athletic freak, but he has clear weaknesses, and if I'm not mistaken has won MVP honors only once in his career.   When  people talk about the great QBs in the game right now Cam Newton is not in the conversation.  Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Tom Brady are the names you hear, and then Pat Mahomes and Jared Goff are the names of the potential next great QBs.

[LSHMEAB]

8 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

Newton is a real good QB, and an athletic freak, but he has clear weaknesses, and if I'm not mistaken has won MVP honors only once in his career.

I'm not knocking you personally, but that is one of the most ridiculous takes I've ever seen.

 

He's only won MVP honors once? Cam is a unique talent that gets overlooked because people don't quite know what to make of him. His success cannot be questioned.

 

Josh Allen is the worst rated passer in the NFL(besides the Peterman and Anderson of course.)

 

I'll be happy if Allen makes a Pro Bowl. An MVP season seems unlikely at this point. One percent seems about right.

[TigerJ]

3 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

 

Josh Allen is the worst rated passer in the NFL(besides the Peterman and Anderson of course.)

 

 

I suspect that if you asked Beane if he expected Allen to be one of the worst rated passers in the NFL, he would tell you he's not terribly shocked, but he still took him 6th overall.  It was known he was raw when he was drafted, and the Bills had a plan which, had it worked out as expected would have kept him on the bench most or all of the season.  McCarron or Peterman was going to start and be reasonably successful.  The only circumstances under which Allen might start were to be if he surprised the Bills by being better than expected sooner than expected.  They had no idea McCarron and Peterman were going to be so ineffective.  Yet that has nothing to do with their high expectations for Allen, once he has a chance to correct the deficiencies in his background and transition fully to the pro game.  You don't draft a player as highly as the Bills drafted Josh Allen unless your expectations are very, very high.

[Bing Bong]

1 hour ago, TigerJ said:

if I'm not mistaken has won MVP honors only once in his career.

If I'm not mistaken Jim Kelly has won MVP honors only zero times in his career. BECAUSE IT'S ****ING HARD.

1 hour ago, TigerJ said:

It was known he was raw when he was drafted, and the Bills had a plan which, had it worked out as expected would have kept him on the bench most or all of the season.

But that plan didn't work out did it? Because that plan was contingent on not having the worst Quarterback ever being the #1 of 2 Quarterbacks. WHO WOULDA KNOWN WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. MCBEANE JUST GOT SUPER UNLUCKY STARTING THEIR QUARTERBACK TOO EARLY AFTER PETERMAN BLEW IT.

 

1. Any good NFL Quarterback should be able to servicable rookie year. Why draft one you wouldn't expect to be? Name me projects pegged as couldn't start for 2 years but could be HOF later.

2. The Bills had a terrible way to keep him on the bench if that was so precious to them. They came in with a hopefule franchise QB and Nate

[Elite Poster]

5 hours ago, Tazor Face said:

Maybe you should contact the nfl and get an application... The pay millions of dollars for people to analyze potential players, people who routinely get it wrong. I'm sure they would love to have someone so sure of who will be successful in this league

 

And as expected the same generic ***** response. "You made a good point so instead of responding intelligently, WHY DON'T YOU SEND AN APPLICATION WAHHHHH". 

[Bing Bong]

3 minutes ago, Elite Poster said:

 

And as expected the same generic ***** response. "You made a good point so instead of responding intelligently, WHY DON'T YOU SEND AN APPLICATION WAHHHHH". 

Why don't you run the bills?! Lmao you probably woulda played all your chips on Peterman instead of being a rational poster criticizing the circus show /s

[CaptnCoke11]

Allen is a big kid with a gun for an arm.. Mentally i don’t think he has it though.  Hope I’m wrong. 

[Pirate Angel]

6 hours ago, Elite Poster said:

 

And as expected the same generic ***** response. "You made a good point so instead of responding intelligently, WHY DON'T YOU SEND AN APPLICATION WAHHHHH". 

Making a reference that there is historic proof that your comment is irrelevant is unintelligent?? 

[Trogdor]

On 11/9/2018 at 11:26 PM, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

 

You're right, he only took a mediocre roster , put them on his back and made them relevant for the first time in a long while, got them to 2 bowl games and won 1 out of the 2, the program is now back to 4-6 without Allen in there. 

There are like 5 guys on NFL teams from his junior year. People act like there was nobody there, and they had one of the best drop rates. They had a good defense those two years too. 

15 hours ago, Elite Poster said:

 

There's a Tom Brady in every draft right? A broken clock is right twice a day, you still need to replace the batteries to give yourself the best chance to know what time it is...

 

Tebow also couldn't throw a football (isn't that crazy, a QB that sucks at throwing) and was drafted in the first somehow. Tim was more of a playmaker than an arm. 

 

The point is, I can't believe I really have to explain this, that Cam is a ***** comparison to JA as are Brady and Tebow. Anymore excuses?

Tebow has more playoff wins than the Bills in the last 20years. Think about that. He does everything Allen does too. Makes me worry about our current situation even more.

On 11/10/2018 at 8:32 AM, H2o said:

Cam was the more polished QB coming out of college. Their athletic traits are similar, but that's where the comparison really ends. Even in the short body of work you can see Allen's attitude is completely different. Allen also has an energy about him that carries over to this whole team that Cam doesn't have imo. He seems like more of a leader at 22 than Cam is as a seasoned vet. Allen still has a way to go with his reads, his footwork, and his understanding of NFL defenses. Hopefully he has the athletic traits similar to Cam, but works his a** off to get the other things to be second nature like Brees. It would be nice to finally have the QB position settled for the next 10+ years. 

Do you think this team will give a **** about his energy when he can't get over 150yds passing? You ever see Cam after a TD drive? You don't think that gets them pumped? I don't even like Cam. 

[TigerJ]

14 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

If I'm not mistaken Jim Kelly has won MVP honors only zero times in his career. BECAUSE IT'S ****ING HARD.

But that plan didn't work out did it? Because that plan was contingent on not having the worst Quarterback ever being the #1 of 2 Quarterbacks. WHO WOULDA KNOWN WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. MCBEANE JUST GOT SUPER UNLUCKY STARTING THEIR QUARTERBACK TOO EARLY AFTER PETERMAN BLEW IT.

 

1. Any good NFL Quarterback should be able to servicable rookie year. Why draft one you wouldn't expect to be? Name me projects pegged as couldn't start for 2 years but could be HOF later.

2. The Bills had a terrible way to keep him on the bench if that was so precious to them. They came in with a hopefule franchise QB and Nate

You can argue that Beane was a fool for hatching the strategy that he did, and you can argue that the Bills should have known that Peterman was an incompetent QB from the beginning, but it is pretty much set in stone that Beane thought Josh Allen could be good when he drafted him, really good.  Only Beane can confirm for sure whether or not he still feels that way, but I don't think there is any compelling reason to suggest he's changed his mind.

[Bing Bong]

3 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

You can argue that Beane was a fool for hatching the strategy that he did, and you can argue that the Bills should have known that Peterman was an incompetent QB from the beginning, but it is pretty much set in stone that Beane thought Josh Allen could be good when he drafted him, really good.  Only Beane can confirm for sure whether or not he still feels that way, but I don't think there is any compelling reason to suggest he's changed his mind.

Yeah I'm making a criticism argument on Beane. Don't really care how he feels about things. I'm excited to see Allen play a 3rd of the level Cam can (with better help next year) because that's a good enough QB to win with this defense

[billsfan89]

21 hours ago, Elite Poster said:

 

If he looks like he did this year, next year, I'm not sure he will be starter in 2020.

 

Allen will get a shot in a QB competition in 2020 if he looks bad in 2019 but he will still be given a chance to turn around his development. Once again it depends on how 2019 goes but Allen won't have as long a leash as most think if 2019 is a turd year. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

17 hours ago, Trogdor said:

There are like 5 guys on NFL teams from his junior year. People act like there was nobody there, and they had one of the best drop rates. They had a good defense those two years too. 

Tebow has more playoff wins than the Bills in the last 20years. Think about that. He does everything Allen does too. Makes me worry about our current situation even more.

Do you think this team will give a **** about his energy when he can't get over 150yds passing? You ever see Cam after a TD drive? You don't think that gets them pumped? I don't even like Cam. 

 

2 players were drafted in 2017... All you had to do was Google it but hey just make up a number and spew it as facts. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2017/04/30/2-wyoming-players-drafted-in-nfl-draft/101133832/

[Trogdor]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

 

2 players were drafted in 2017... All you had to do was Google it but hey just make up a number and spew it as facts. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2017/04/30/2-wyoming-players-drafted-in-nfl-draft/101133832/

I never said drafted. A WR and TE got picked up and a LB too I believe. Maybe read first before trying to one up someone. In that conference that's very impressive.

[Thurman#1]

On 11/10/2018 at 8:24 AM, KzooMike said:

It was always going to be Allen.

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/index.ssf/2017/07/buffalo_bills_gm_brandon_beane_describes_what_he_looks_for_in_franchise_quarterb.html

 

 

 

 

The article doesn't back up the fact that it was always going to be Allen.

 

What it says about Newton is that physically you want someone like Newton. But Newton isn't mentioned about leadership, decision-making or anything but physical makeup, really.

 

On 11/11/2018 at 12:17 PM, LSHMEAB said:

I'm not knocking you personally, but that is one of the most ridiculous takes I've ever seen.

 

He's only won MVP honors once? Cam is a unique talent that gets overlooked because people don't quite know what to make of him. His success cannot be questioned.

 

Josh Allen is the worst rated passer in the NFL(besides the Peterman and Anderson of course.)

 

I'll be happy if Allen makes a Pro Bowl. An MVP season seems unlikely at this point. One percent seems about right.

 

 

Nah. Not on that basis anyway. Newton has a career passer rating of 86.6. That undersells him a bit because his first four years or so he was always a low to mid-eighties guy.

 

It wasn't certain for the first two or three years that Carolina had gotten a franchise guy with him.

 

Look at the rookie years of an awful lot of great QBs and you'll see guys who weren't very good. The odds are a good deal higher than 1%. But anywhere from a floor of 5 - 10% to a ceiling of 30 - 50% is arguable, really. Looking at a rookie year tells you little or nothing unless you somehow stumble onto a Dan Marino or an outlier like him that just obviously has it. There are a fair amount of guys who play decent as rookies. Very few are obviously franchise guys early, and that very much includes Newton.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

On 11/11/2018 at 1:42 PM, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

1. Any good NFL Quarterback should be able to servicable rookie year. Why draft one you wouldn't expect to be? Name me projects pegged as couldn't start for 2 years but could be HOF later.

2. The Bills had a terrible way to keep him on the bench if that was so precious to them. They came in with a hopefule franchise QB and Nate

 

 

Nonsense. There are plenty of "good NFL quarterbacks" who didn't have serviceable rookie years. Look at Drew Brees.He wasn't able to beat out a dead-armed Doug Flutie. Flutie in Brees' rookie year completed 56.4% of his passes, threw 15 TDs and 18 INTs, managed a horrible YPA of 6.6 and a QB rating of 72.0. And Brees couldn't beat him out and was bad enough over the next two years that the Chargers drafted Rivers. I personally consider Brees a "good NFL quarterback." Would you disagree? Was Troy Aikman a "good NFL quarterback"? Because he bit the large one as a rookie. Nine TDs and eighteen INTs and a QB rating of 55.7!!! Plenty of QBs who turned out excellent sucked as rookies. Look at Terry Bradshaw. Rich Gannon threw 21 passes total over his first three years and became a very fine QB.

 

I don't disagree that they did a bad job of building a QB room that would keep him on the bench for the first year. Beane has already said that he should've brought someone else in after he got rid of McCarron.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

5 hours ago, Trogdor said:

I never said drafted. A WR and TE got picked up and a LB too I believe. Maybe read first before trying to one up someone. In that conference that's very impressive.

 

One up? I'm not a child I don't need to "one up" someone on Bills message board, I like facts and you clearly got your facts mixed up so I corrected you.

[Trogdor]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

 

One up? I'm not a child I don't need to "one up" someone on Bills message board, I like facts and you clearly got your facts mixed up so I corrected you.

I said 5 people playing in the NFL not drafted. Clearly you are a child if you still can't understand the difference between playing in and drafted. Just say my mistake and move on. His team had more than enough talent and he still wasn't rated highly.

[jrober38]

On 11/9/2018 at 6:56 PM, Hebert19 said:

Yes.  Cam was more ready but I'd argue Allen has a higher ceiling. 

 

1.  Better arm. 

2.  Not a douche.  Cam is always pouting and whining.  

3.  Smarter.  Allen is a sharp kid.  Cam is smart when he wants to be.  But doesnt put in the same effort. 

 

None of these things really have anything to do with being a successful QB in the NFL. 

 

The last bit of #3 is pure speculation. 

Edited November 12, 2018 by jrober38

[Bing Bong]

9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Nonsense. There are plenty of "good NFL quarterbacks" who didn't have serviceable rookie years. Look at Drew Brees.He wasn't able to beat out a dead-armed Doug Flutie. Flutie in Brees' rookie year completed 56.4% of his passes, threw 15 TDs and 18 INTs, managed a horrible YPA of 6.6 and a QB rating of 72.0. And Brees couldn't beat him out and was bad enough over the next two years that the Chargers drafted Rivers. I personally consider Brees a "good NFL quarterback." Would you disagree? Was Troy Aikman a "good NFL quarterback"? Because he bit the large one as a rookie. Nine TDs and eighteen INTs and a QB rating of 55.7!!! Plenty of QBs who turned out excellent sucked as rookies. Look at Terry Bradshaw. Rich Gannon threw 21 passes total over his first three years and became a very fine QB.

 

I don't disagree that they did a bad job of building a QB room that would keep him on the bench for the first year. Beane has already said that he should've brought someone else in after he got rid of McCarron.

There's not many, and Drew Brees was good with the Chargers: he was replaced with Rivers because of a brutal shoulder injury (side note: that Chargers team was stacked prior to the draft.. why did Eli not want to play with LT, Gates, Chris Chambers?? Always found his insistence on not playing in beautiful San Diego.. THAT WAS GOOD super puzzling. Must have been a family interference thing), Gannon didn't become "very fine" until he had Jerry friggin Rice. If JA has the weapons, we should know a lot about him next year.

 

Bradshaw played in the stone age where they had like 18 rounds of draft, and he was never the driver behind the Steelers success that era. He was good certainly, but he sucked along with that early season until the famous defense started making them contenders. Troy was absolutely carried on a stacked team, would you take him ore Kelly? Of all the quarterbacks his era he was miles behind Young, Favre, Kelly, Elway, Marino. Although I'd give him top 10 any given year. He's really a questionable HOFer given his numbers but you can't fault him for having Emmit Smith getting so many carries and winning super bowls. I think he'd have a Drew Bledsoe like quarterback career on a bad team (which is good! love for JA to be on a Bledsoe level).

 

Regardless this is the modern NFL where rookie records are being shattered right now, I haven't seen quarterbacks take 2 to 3 starting years sucking to turn into a franchise other than a mediocre Alex Smith.I'm not saying anything about JA's ability, but we should know a lot his sophomore year.

 

I just don't like the term "project QB" as if they can't contribute to winning. Brett Favre didn't know jack about nickel or dime defenses, would be pegged as a project QB. Didn't matter, he was crushing it from his first start, and his project culminated to 3 MVPs.

 

We showed project EJ the door with glee after like 2 seasons where they really wanted to start him. That's the way the NFL goes.

 

I'll cede that every example either of us cite ultimately comes down to innate talent and having the right coach and personnel to allow you to maximize your abilities. And some quarterbacks get the short end of that stick. We've beaten various forms of this argument to death - (Can QBs be broken? How long do we give our QBs?) I think we both know where we stand lol we don't need to spam the board any further throwing out the same quarterbacks that fit our narrative.

Edited November 12, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[Dr.Sack]

From what I’ve witnessed Josh Allen has a lot of talent, but he needs time to develop. We won’t know until 2020 if he’s the right man for the job. If we keep him in moff balls the next two seasons we will never know if he’s trending towards being the man. There should be benchmarks along the way to track his development. So far have there been any reports about a lack of character or competitiveness? 

[Bing Bong]

13 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

From what I’ve witnessed Josh Allen has a lot of talent, but he needs time to develop. We won’t know until 2020 if he’s the right man for the job. If we keep him in moff balls the next two seasons we will never know if he’s trending towards being the man. There should be benchmarks along the way to track his development. So far have there been any reports about a lack of character or competitiveness? 

We simply need to improve the offense and pay very close attention that he's improving if we're willing to wait until 2020. If he shows no improvement in 2019 I wouldn't cut him and draft another, but I'd certainly get a Tyrod/EJ type contingency plan in that situation.

 

We need to get him recievers that fit HIS bill. Ironically it's the same type of recievers Tyrod always needed: beats the zone in the perfect spot to mitigate inaccuracy, ability to get WIDE open consistently and beat your man, and of course just have good hands to catch fast balls, fast reaction time, and a wide catch radius. I wouldn't mind blocking receivers for Cam like spread options. A Mike Wallace burner is huge for stretching defenses and maximizing his arm strength (and that dude needs to be FAST), as much as I love Foster's catch, even his great contested grab was not high pointed because he didn't want to jump and catch with hands. I want a burner that truly high points the ball because that's so hard to defend if you're quarterback is throwing bombs and single coverage in that situation makes it a 50/50 60 yard gain if the player can high point the ball and just be better than his defender.

 

That's what JA needs for me to know what he has. I want it sophomore year, ASAP, and I'll be frustrated if we don't give him the best recievers possible to maximize his talents. He's not Brady or Brees. He needs great recievers. No problem with that, so did Matt Ryan, and he was always given great recievers (the Falcons drafted Julio Jones top ten after Roddy White had a 1300 yard 10+ TD season, and then they drafted Calvin Ridley this year!

Edited November 12, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

There's not many, and Drew Brees was good with the Chargers: he was replaced with Rivers because of a brutal shoulder injury (side note: that Chargers team was stacked prior to the draft.. why did Eli not want to play with LT, Gates, Chris Chambers?? Always found his insistence on not playing in beautiful San Diego.. THAT WAS GOOD super puzzling. Must have been a family interference thing), Gannon didn't become "very fine" until he had Jerry friggin Rice. If JA has the weapons, we should know a lot about him next year.

 

Bradshaw played in the stone age where they had like 18 rounds of draft, and he was never the driver behind the Steelers success that era. He was good certainly, but he sucked along with that early season until the famous defense started making them contenders. Troy was absolutely carried on a stacked team, would you take him ore Kelly? Of all the quarterbacks his era he was miles behind Young, Favre, Kelly, Elway, Marino. Although I'd give him top 10 any given year. He's really a questionable HOFer given his numbers but you can't fault him for having Emmit Smith getting so many carries and winning super bowls. I think he'd have a Drew Bledsoe like quarterback career on a bad team (which is good! love for JA to be on a Bledsoe level).

 

Regardless this is the modern NFL where rookie records are being shattered right now, I haven't seen quarterbacks take 2 to 3 starting years sucking to turn into a franchise other than a mediocre Alex Smith.I'm not saying anything about JA's ability, but we should know a lot his sophomore year.

 

I just don't like the term "project QB" as if they can't contribute to winning. Brett Favre didn't know jack about nickel or dime defenses, would be pegged as a project QB. Didn't matter, he was crushing it from his first start, and his project culminated to 3 MVPs.

 

We showed project EJ the door with glee after like 2 seasons where they really wanted to start him. That's the way the NFL goes.

 

I'll cede that every example either of us cite ultimately comes down to innate talent and having the right coach and personnel to allow you to maximize your abilities. And some quarterbacks get the short end of that stick. We've beaten various forms of this argument to death - (Can QBs be broken? How long do we give our QBs?) I think we both know where we stand lol we don't need to spam the board any further throwing out the same quarterbacks that fit our narrative.

 

 

Yes, Drew Brees was good with the Chargers. In his fourth year, after one year on the bench and then two of poor play (more INTs than TDs and a total YPA of about 6.0 for those two years and a passer rating in the very low 70s). He needed an awful lot of development, as do many.

 

And this being the modern NFL doesn't change anything. Mahomes is as modern a story as it's possible to get. He sat and developed and that was a very very good thing. And yes you have seen QBs take two or three years to turn into a franchise guy. Cam Newton for one was terrific running the ball early on but when teams figured out how to defend him, for three or four years there were real questions whether he'd ever be a franchise guy or be more than mediocre in the passing game. Kirk Cousins says hi. Eli Manning too.

 

Whether you like the term "project QB" is beside the point. If you don't like it, use a different term. But they're still out there, whatever term you use and they still need development. Not every guy is one. But some are.

 

Oh, Bradshaw wasn't the driver of that Pittsburgh team? Come on. Yeah, they had a good team. But Bradshaw was a terrific QB - after two or three years of development - and without him they don't win those Lombardis. Their offense was 5th, 5th, 7th, 1st, 10th  and 8th those years.

 

And I'd take Aikman over Kelly, much as I like Jimbo. Aikman was accurate as hell. And yes after two or three years Aikman had a terrific lineup around him, but so did Kelly.

 

Brett Favre ... took a season on the bench to learn. I think it's pretty likely that during that first year he stopped not knowing "jack about nickel and dime defenses." And for his first year or two of play he was far from "crushing it." Over his first two years on the field, after sitting for a year, he threw 37 TDs and ... wait for it ... 37 INTs. His passer rating for those two years comes out in the 70s, and while passer ratings were definitely lower then, he wasn't crushing it. He looked like he might have a future. His fourth year in the league was when he started playing like Brett Favre.

 

 

 

-----------------------------------

As for why Eli didn't want to go to SD, it was more understandable at the time. LT was playing really well, but Gates had just finished a so-so rookie year where he had 24 catches for 389 yards. And who's Chris Chambers? I looked and nobody of that name was on the Chargers roster in either Manning's rookie year or his last year in college.  There was a guy of that name at WR on the Chargers in parts of 2007 and 2009 and all of 2008. That Chambers was far from spectacular.  SD looked like a franchise that didn't know how to win. They were coming off a 4-12 season. Eli was a rookie in 2004 and SD's last winning season was 1995, a 9-7 season.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Bing Bong]

11 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yes, Drew Brees was good with the Chargers. In his fourth year, after one year on the bench and then two of poor play (more INTs than TDs and a total YPA of about 6.0 for those two years and a passer rating in the very low 70s). He needed an awful lot of development, as do many.

 

And this being the modern NFL doesn't change anything. Mahomes is as modern a story as it's possible to get. He sat and developed and that was a very very good thing. And yes you have seen QBs take two or three years to turn into a franchise guy. Cam Newton for one was terrific running the ball early on but when teams figured out how to defend him, for three or four years there were real questions whether he'd ever be a franchise guy or be more than mediocre in the passing game. Kirk Cousins says hi. Eli Manning too.

 

Whether you like the term "project QB" is beside the point. If you don't like it, use a different term. But they're still out there, whatever term you use and they still need development. Not every guy is one. But some are.

 

Oh, Bradshaw wasn't the driver of that Pittsburgh team? Come on. Yeah, they had a good team. But Bradshaw was a terrific QB - after two or three years of development - and without him they don't win those Lombardis. Their offense was 5th, 5th, 7th, 1st, 10th  and 8th those years.

 

And I'd take Aikman over Kelly, much as I like Jimbo. Aikman was accurate as hell. And yes after two or three years Aikman had a terrific lineup around him, but so did Kelly.

 

Brett Favre ... took a season on the bench to learn. I think it's pretty likely that during that first year he stopped not knowing "jack about nickel and dime defenses." And for his first year or two of play he was far from "crushing it." Over his first two years on the field, after sitting for a year, he threw 37 TDs and ... wait for it ... 37 INTs. His passer rating for those two years comes out in the 70s, and while passer ratings were definitely lower then, he wasn't crushing it. He looked like he might have a future. His fourth year in the league was when he started playing like Brett Favre.

 

 

 

-----------------------------------

As for why Eli didn't want to go to SD, it was more understandable at the time. LT was playing really well, but Gates had just finished a so-so rookie year where he had 24 catches for 389 yards. And who's Chris Chambers? I looked and nobody of that name was on the Chargers roster in either Manning's rookie year or his last year in college.  There was a guy of that name at WR on the Chargers in parts of 2007 and 2009 and all of 2008. That Chambers was far from spectacular.  SD looked like a franchise that didn't know how to win. Eli was a rookie in 2004 and SD's last winning season was 1995, a 9-7 season.

 

 

 

 

1. Drew Brees played better than many rookie Quarterbacks.

2. Mahomes and Cousins could have been just as good day 1. In fact Cousins was undefeated when filling in for RGIII rookie year.

3. Bradshaw was stoneage

4. Favre didn't take a season to learn his HC didn't want him they drafted him with a second never played him and traded him for a first. And yes he was good. Cool 37 TDs and 37 INTs that's Brett Favre's career in a wrap. He was clearly the franchise Quarterback with his wins, consistently top ten in passing yards and clear better talent than Don Majkowski, a journeyman vet. his 4th season was when he was MVP. Nice point?? I'm not saying I'm expecting MVP first year starting. 

5. Kelly was better than Aikman dude.

6. If Favre is a measuring stick can we agree that Allen should prove he's better than a journeyman Majkowski his sophomore year? THAT'S MY POINT. We should know by next year, just like pretty much everybody you just cited

7. I don't give a **** that was a good Chargers team is all I'm saying lol are you saying it wasn't? Much better than the Giants for the early part of their careers.

Edited November 13, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks