Culture and the Process do not equal talent

[Gugny]

On 10/22/2018 at 1:27 PM, Foreigner said:

You guys can cry all you want about needing to change the  Culture and a new Process but it is the talent that wins games.

 

The big bad talented Pats are awaiting next, with  Tom Brady's new bad boy play thing Josh Gordon's 100 receiving yards

yesterday. I guess Gordon was not good enough for a try out with the Bills because he didn't fit the culture.

 

 

 

You're not shy.  You've been around!

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Can you “convert” this into an actual football insight? You’ve done your best on this and other threads, to turn this into some kind of a debate about spirituality and knocking any player for it, yet seemingly miss that each Bills’ player or coach, just like everyone else here, make personal decisions about faith, none of which  has anything whatsoever to do with their roster role or football acumen/ability. Although, isn’t it ironic that a Christian like Drew Brees plays at a high level for the “Saints?” That smells like a conspiracy to me for which Loomis and Payton should be fired—by your logic. C’mon man, I know you’re better than this kind of intellectually vacant posting. Can we talk ball ? now?

 

Peterman brought faith into it with his ridiculous, passive-aggressive, excuse making immediately after the Texans loss. He put the issue out there on the table.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Peterman brought faith into it with his ridiculous, passive-aggressive, excuse making immediately after the Texans loss. He put the issue out there on the table.

He raised it as an excuse, or tried to justify his roster spot with faith? My response that you were quoting was aimed at correcting the obvious fallacy that McD somehow makes game roster decisions based on a religious test, which is more than a bridge too far, and is based on no objective facts whatsoever or trustworthy sources inside OBD. Never heard NP say that the reason he played the way he did was because of his beliefs. Hardly an excuse for how he played at the end. You can say what you will about him, and many have to the point of ridiculousness, but attack the guy for what he shows on the field, and leave the rest alone where it belongs, that's my point. I don't understand the incessant need by a few here to make these crazy leaps of no-logic just because a player dares utter that there's more to life than between the hash marks. I have no doubt your life consists of more than the Bills too.    

[GunnerBill]

53 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

He raised it as an excuse, or tried to justify his roster spot with faith? My response that you were quoting was aimed at correcting the obvious fallacy that McD somehow makes game roster decisions based on a religious test, which is more than a bridge too far, and is based on no objective facts whatsoever or trustworthy sources inside OBD. Never heard NP say that the reason he played the way he did was because of his beliefs. Hardly an excuse for how he played at the end. You can say what you will about him, and many have to the point of ridiculousness, but attack the guy for what he shows on the field, and leave the rest alone where it belongs, that's my point. I don't understand the incessant need by a few here to make these crazy leaps of no-logic just because a player dares utter that there's more to life than between the hash marks. I have no doubt your life consists of more than the Bills too.    

 

I will criticise him both for his play, and for his reaction afterwards, because in my mind both are worthy of criticism. You may disagree, that is your right - but when players feel the need to tell me how religious they are immediately after playing poorly and that it is their faith that should define them I maintain the right to criticise that reaction.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I will criticise him both for his play, and for his reaction afterwards, because in my mind both are worthy of criticism. You may disagree, that is your right - but when players feel the need to tell me how religious they are immediately after playing poorly and that it is their faith that should define them I maintain the right to criticise that reaction.

You’re right, we are both absolutely entitled to our opinion. Will leave it at that

[ctk232]

15 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

We have the 32nd ranked offense in the league at 11.6 ppg. 

 

Last by a full 1.5 points and the Cardinals started out with with 6 points in the their first two games. 

 

Believe us, we know we can't expect anything here in Buffalo, that we should just shut up and be grateful for a team. It's getting really old. 

 

McDermott is insulting talking to us about learning from 35 year old career backups, that culture is important than strategy, that they are trying to build a culture here. You're getting your teeth kicked in every other week. 

 

Its absurd.  

I'm right there with you - the frustration levels are real and I'm having a hard time explaining to my GF (newly converted Bills fan), why this is just so frustrating. BUT the objective reality of the situation is that this is the season we (some of us) expected to have, and that this team is still being built. A partially built NFL team is expected to perform this way. That being said I agree that this is still the NFL and there are no excuses for these blowout losses. It takes a toll on everyone invested in the Bills success, and only adds pressure to the FO and HC to get things right. But there wasn't much that could have actually been done to achieve a different result. Since the first game, here's how the blame finger pointed in succession: first it was the OL being porous, then it was the WR not running routes and dropping passes, then it was scratching our heads with the OC and play calls on certain downs given the passing yd per game, we moved onto the QB realizing hey I don't want to get down on our future franchise, but he isn't anywhere near NFL ready, which leads us to the penultimate top HC saying all the wrong things not foreseeing the future and getting this team ready, ultimately let's add in the GM too since we know everything about their professional workflow and decision making, and it's who's responsible for this whole mess. We've run out of people to blame and things haven't changed, reason being because we simply aren't competing this year. It's a hard pill to swallow, but it's one that sets us up for a chance at a future that we all hope for. Skepticism is certainly warranted, but people judging their moves on offense as though this is what they intended to compete with are absurd. If we, the armchair ethnographers of the Bills, can see the issues with this offense, you can damn well bet our team does as well. But the intention was not to make the playoffs or SB this year, it was to start the build of our offense and continue the process. It's long, arduous, and stressful, but it puts together a team that we can eventually judge based upon performance. No coach in the NFL would've been able to come in when McD and Beane did and give you a team that we could all be proud of at this point. We all signed on for a 3-4 year process and even that is pushing it. They inherited a ship held afloat by a .500 record, but was otherwise sinking in bloated contracts and mediocre play. If you want to patch the holes you need to do so by giving yourself the resources to do so. So far, we're on track.

 

I couldn't care less about the culture talk, it has a place in the locker room and it's a part of what helped us get close enough to the playoff bubble last year. Criticism is necessary for a team regardless of W-L record, and accountability is needed - no one is saying be grateful for just having a team, although that in and of itself could also be true (looking at San Antonio and others). But this is not the team we should be judging and calling for people's jobs. While no one deserves to get their teeth kicked in every week and Bills fans have done nothing to deserve it, it's the reality we're in and honestly some expected all along. Suck it up and support a team for the future, calling for people's jobs now and saying everything is on fire literally does nothing to move forward.

Edited October 24, 2018 by ctk232

[iinii]

On 10/22/2018 at 1:08 PM, Buffalo Barbarian said:

So Allen , Dawkins, White, Edmunds, Philips, Milano, Johnson along with McCoy, Kyle, Hughes, Star, Poyer .... Don't have talent??

 

 

Not enough. You need at least 22 and you have named 12. It is akin to what Marv said about depth.

[ctk232]

13 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Do you bother to follow the rest of the NFL at all or do you only watch the Bills demonstrate their ineptitude every week and lap up all the excuses coming from the usual Bills propaganda sources?  There is absolutely no question that the players the Bills allowed to leave in FA or traded away are significantly more talented than the players with whom the Bills replaced them (and yes, that includes both Tre White and Tremaine Edmunds, the only two who even come close).  If you don't think so, then it's just sour grapes and/or blind loyalty to McDermott and Beane.

• Woods is tearing up the league in LA. 
• Gilmore has become the Patriots' lock-down CB. 
• Glenn is Andy Dalton's new best friend. 
• Goodwin was on his way to becoming a star for the 49ers when he had Garappolo throwing to him.  He still lights up the board on occasion even with CJ Beathard throwing to him.  
• Watkins shines whenever he gets the opportunity in a star-studded KC offense which features different players almost every week. 
• Preston Brown, Marcel Darius, Reggie Ragland, and Ronald Darby are all season-long starters for play off contending teams. 

Easy champ - I'm not blind to the success of our former players. I pay for Sunday Ticket for a reason beyond just watching the Bills...but maybe you should re-watch our .500 record seasons.

 

Maybe there's a reason they're doing well now but weren't succeeding before. And it's always easy to say "look at all our former players who are doing well now!" I can't remember many, if any, being sad that Sammy or Dareus were dealt, Sammy had to get kicked out of LA to start to show up, and Dareus is doing Dareus in Jax nothing worth his contract. Maybe more so for Woods and Darby, but these are the players that get dealt during rebuilds as they are actually worth something to teams. Preston was a solid defensive QB but not game changing for our defense nor really had a high ceiling, and good for Goodwin, he was always a great WR option but never an irreplaceable talent. Gilmore was hot/cold and had a fair amount of really questionable plays at times that gouged our defense, and part of one of the weakest defenses in the NFL at the moment. I always liked Reggie, would've liked to have seen him have a chance in our D but likely wouldn't be a scheme fit. 

 

The reason they are all doing better now? Different teams, different coaches, and dare I say different cultures. They were not the players they are now when they were on our team, and there's no guarantee they would have improved to this point under our team regardless. It's the same logic for Mahomes, no guarantee he ends up anywhere near the QB he is if we draft him. I'm not saying this out of loyalty to McD or Beane, I'm still reserving judgment for when they put together a team, just simple logic and the reality that we never made the playoffs when these guys were a part of the team. Context is everything and we were not winning with those guys, so what would've changed to help them perform the way they are now that doesn't include a new team?

12 hours ago, NewDayBills said:

I don't trust them with the offense and I don't like Daboll, our only hope is McDermott fires him but that will be his third coach in three years which in return would make me question if McD is mentally capable of building an offense to begin with. I'm beginning to think McD is really a glorified DC that should not be a HC in the NFL. 

I have those thoughts too - I've always questioned defensive coaches ability to translate to HC, but factually there's no basis for that thought. It all depends on the OC/DC and the HC's role within the team and playcalling responsibilities if any. I've always been a proponent of hiring failed HC's that were great OCs/DCs to be our coordinators. They're failed HC tenure prevents them from being poached by other teams, and they seem to turn out for the better (i.e. Schwartz, Wade Phillips, etc.) HC's can have variable involvement and actual say for both sides of the ball, while maintaining oversight. As far as his ability to identify OC success, while it is his decision ultimately (I believe), I doubt he's making it all on his own. I also doubt our Defense looks this way with an offensively minded HC, need to consider that as well.

 

But how is getting a new OC any different than this board calling for our coach's head every other year like we're the Cleveland Bills? It's fine to fire our Coach/GM every other year but bringing in an OC every year until we get it right is out of the question? I'm not saying your inclination is wrong, but continuity is being vastly overlooked by this board and the effects that it can have on players and player performance.

Edited October 24, 2018 by ctk232

[Straight Hucklebuck]

6 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

I'm right there with you - the frustration levels are real and I'm having a hard time explaining to my GF (newly converted Bills fan), why this is just so frustrating. BUT the objective reality of the situation is that this is the season we (some of us) expected to have, and that this team is still being built. A partially built NFL team is expected to perform this way. That being said I agree that this is still the NFL and there are no excuses for these blowout losses. It takes a toll on everyone invested in the Bills success, and only adds pressure to the FO and HC to get things right. But there wasn't much that could have actually been done to achieve a different result. Since the first game, here's how the blame finger pointed in succession: first it was the OL being porous, then it was the WR not running routes and dropping passes, then it was scratching our heads with the OC and play calls on certain downs given the passing yd per game, we moved onto the QB realizing hey I don't want to get down on our future franchise, but he isn't anywhere near NFL ready, which leads us to the penultimate top HC saying all the wrong things not foreseeing the future and getting this team ready, ultimately let's add in the GM too since we know everything about their professional workflow and decision making, and it's who's responsible for this whole mess. We've run out of people to blame and things haven't changed, reason being because we simply aren't competing this year. It's a hard pill to swallow, but it's one that sets us up for a chance at a future that we all hope for. Skepticism is certainly warranted, but people judging their moves on offense as though this is what they intended to compete with are absurd. If we, the armchair ethnographers of the Bills, can see the issues with this offense, you can damn well bet our team does as well. But the intention was not to make the playoffs or SB this year, it was to start the build of our offense and continue the process. It's long, arduous, and stressful, but it puts together a team that we can eventually judge based upon performance. No coach in the NFL would've been able to come in when McD and Beane did and give you a team that we could all be proud of at this point. We all signed on for a 3-4 year process and even that is pushing it. They inherited a ship held afloat by a .500 record, but was otherwise sinking in bloated contracts and mediocre play. If you want to patch the holes you need to do so by giving yourself the resources to do so. So far, we're on track.

 

I couldn't care less about the culture talk, it has a place in the locker room and it's a part of what helped us get close enough to the playoff bubble last year. Criticism is necessary for a team regardless of W-L record, and accountability is needed - no one is saying be grateful for just having a team, although that in and of itself could also be true (looking at San Antonio and others). But this is not the team we should be judging and calling for people's jobs. While no one deserves to get their teeth kicked in every week and Bills fans have done nothing to deserve it, it's the reality we're in and honestly some expected all along. Suck it up and support a team for the future, calling for people's jobs now and saying everything is on fire literally does nothing to move forward.

There isn't much that could have been done. 

 

Can we stop making excuses and lowering the bar? 

 

Did we have to have Josh Allen so badly that it took #53, #56 and Cordy Glenn? Guess so. I guess Brian Daboll was the best we could do for OC. 

 

We needed Tremaine Edmunds so badly that it took #65 as well. 

 

Did we need to force Richie Incognito to take a paycut?

 

I am sick and tired already of McDermott and Beane and this mantra that they inherited a complete mess and the fans have to eat more poop to eventually get good. 

 

They made the Playoffs and so they get 2018 and 2019. But honestly, looking at the moves they have made, I don't have faith in what they're building. I see McDermott sitting in a room with Brian Daboll and there are no ideas there. 

 

I don't buy that this was a dumpster fire that McDermott and Beane had to clean up by gutting everyone in the process. Beane and McDermott are still leaning on two Whaley guys in McCoy and Clay. 

 

You can believe that after this dumpster fire of a season, real winning is on the way with Josh Allen and the new weapons from the $80MM in cap space and the Draft. But based on who McDermott/Beane tend to go after, I don't think we're going to be the Rams or Chiefs anytime soon. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

12 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

There isn't much that could have been done. 

 

Can we stop making excuses and lowering the bar? 

 

Did we have to have Josh Allen so badly that it took #53, #56 and Cordy Glenn? Guess so. I guess Brian Daboll was the best we could do for OC. 

 

We needed Tremaine Edmunds so badly that it took #65 as well. 

 

Did we need to force Richie Incognito to take a paycut?

 

I am sick and tired already of McDermott and Beane and this mantra that they inherited a complete mess and the fans have to eat more poop to eventually get good. 

 

They made the Playoffs and so they get 2018 and 2019. But honestly, looking at the moves they have made, I don't have faith in what they're building. I see McDermott sitting in a room with Brian Daboll and there are no ideas there. 

 

I don't buy that this was a dumpster fire that McDermott and Beane had to clean up by gutting everyone in the process. Beane and McDermott are still leaning on two Whaley guys in McCoy and Clay. 

 

You can believe that after this dumpster fire of a season, real winning is on the way with Josh Allen and the new weapons from the $80MM in cap space and the Draft. But based on who McDermott/Beane tend to go after, I don't think we're going to be the Rams or Chiefs anytime soon. 

 

Feel better now?

 

 

[Soda Popinski]

15 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

There isn't much that could have been done. 

 

Can we stop making excuses and lowering the bar? 

 

Did we have to have Josh Allen so badly that it took #53, #56 and Cordy Glenn? Guess so. I guess Brian Daboll was the best we could do for OC. 

 

We needed Tremaine Edmunds so badly that it took #65 as well. 

 

Did we need to force Richie Incognito to take a paycut?

 

I am sick and tired already of McDermott and Beane and this mantra that they inherited a complete mess and the fans have to eat more poop to eventually get good. 

 

They made the Playoffs and so they get 2018 and 2019. But honestly, looking at the moves they have made, I don't have faith in what they're building. I see McDermott sitting in a room with Brian Daboll and there are no ideas there. 

 

I don't buy that this was a dumpster fire that McDermott and Beane had to clean up by gutting everyone in the process. Beane and McDermott are still leaning on two Whaley guys in McCoy and Clay. 

 

You can believe that after this dumpster fire of a season, real winning is on the way with Josh Allen and the new weapons from the $80MM in cap space and the Draft. But based on who McDermott/Beane tend to go after, I don't think we're going to be the Rams or Chiefs anytime soon. 

I agree with a lot of this.   It wasn't necessary to completely detonate the entire roster.   But every new regime does it.  the Giants are doing it right now.   So is Oakland.   McVay didn't, and neither did Pederson when they took over....When Andy Reid took over the Chiefs, he basically traded for Alex Smith, and went from there.  He didn't detonate anything either.    The best seem to come in and take what's there and make it better.   The teams that don't, they blow it up, F*** it up, and get fired in 36-42 months. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Feel better now?

 

 

He said 'leaning on Clay'...all 19 yards per game of his. Yikes.

[Jauronimo]

23 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He said 'leaning on Clay'...all 19 yards per game of his. Yikes.

He was our leading receiver the past few years.  Our #1 pass catcher goes for 32 yards per game, by the way.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Jauronimo said:

He was our leading receiver the past few years.  Our #1 pass catcher goes for 32 yards per game, by the way.

Biggest reason being he was signed to a ridiculous contract, it's not as if he was some irreplaceable part. I think it's sort of ridiculous to say an offense led by Taylor 'leaned' on Clay any more than it would have 'leaned' on whichever warm body they decided to throw in there at TE.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

5 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

I agree with a lot of this.   It wasn't necessary to completely detonate the entire roster.   But every new regime does it.  the Giants are doing it right now.   So is Oakland.   McVay didn't, and neither did Pederson when they took over....When Andy Reid took over the Chiefs, he basically traded for Alex Smith, and went from there.  He didn't detonate anything either.    The best seem to come in and take what's there and make it better.   The teams that don't, they blow it up, F*** it up, and get fired in 36-42 months. 

This is a good observation. 

 

The Browns have tried the detonation technique going all the way back to when Mangini in 2009/2010 shipped Edwards, Winslow, Jamal Lewis out. The offense was neutered and he didn't survive (he got 2 years - 2009, 2010). Like the Bills brass with ex-Panthers, he loaded up on a ton of old Jets Barton, Barlow and McGinest.

 

McDermott will get this season and the offseason, but if 2019 starts off with more losing, I don't think he gets out of that season as a HC.

[ctk232]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

There isn't much that could have been done. 

 

Can we stop making excuses and lowering the bar? 

 

Did we have to have Josh Allen so badly that it took #53, #56 and Cordy Glenn? Guess so. I guess Brian Daboll was the best we could do for OC. 

 

We needed Tremaine Edmunds so badly that it took #65 as well. 

 

Did we need to force Richie Incognito to take a paycut?

 

I am sick and tired already of McDermott and Beane and this mantra that they inherited a complete mess and the fans have to eat more poop to eventually get good. 

 

They made the Playoffs and so they get 2018 and 2019. But honestly, looking at the moves they have made, I don't have faith in what they're building. I see McDermott sitting in a room with Brian Daboll and there are no ideas there. 

 

I don't buy that this was a dumpster fire that McDermott and Beane had to clean up by gutting everyone in the process. Beane and McDermott are still leaning on two Whaley guys in McCoy and Clay. 

 

You can believe that after this dumpster fire of a season, real winning is on the way with Josh Allen and the new weapons from the $80MM in cap space and the Draft. But based on who McDermott/Beane tend to go after, I don't think we're going to be the Rams or Chiefs anytime soon. 

There's a difference between excuses and evidence. We made the picks for Allen and Edmunds, I wasn't high on Allen and I am still not nearly convinced given what we've seen, but a lot of factors have to come into play that lead me to reserve judgment on him until he develops more and within a competent offense. What's your problem with Edmunds? Are you inferring Incognito left because of the paycut or what was the problem there? He literally quit on a mental breakdown, that's what happened. McD/Beane didn't inherit a dumpsterfire, but they inherited a team who's ceiling was proven to be 8-8, maybe 9-7, and in order to make the moves needed to perennially compete and especially compete for an SB (the end goal, mind you) would take giving up more of what we currently had. The cap absolutely plays a role in terms of who you can and can't bring in, it's not the reason we are where we are but it's a factor. I still don't know how I feel about Daboll and I'll admit I'm not high on him at present. These aren't excuses, it's just reality and we're approaching it very differently. While you've become fed up with blowout losses and what you've seen thus far and it's caused you to quit on what you're seeing for the future already, I'm choosing to wait and see more efficacious data before saying the ship is totally sunk and let's move on already.

 

I don't know what is on the way in the next seasons - no one does. I'm not predicting a complete turnaround or a playoff berth next year. We can all be skeptical based upon what we've seen, I am as well. The issue is calling it now before anything happens and treating this like it was the result they've been building toward. I agree some decisions have been questionable, and others have actually been for the better. All I'm saying is it's impossible to judge something that isn't even here yet - and while the current state is one of complete lack of competitiveness and ability on offense, who's to say what will and won't happen next year or the year after? The reason it is such an unknown is because of the cap space and draft picks giving us greater opportunity to right things and fill holes than not. It's not an excuse, it's a reason why no one knows for certain what will happen after this year.

Edited October 24, 2018 by ctk232

[Soda Popinski]

2 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

This is a good observation. 

 

The Browns have tried the detonation technique going all the way back to when Mangini in 2009/2010 shipped Edwards, Winslow, Jamal Lewis out. The offense was neutered and he didn't survive (he got 2 years - 2009, 2010). Like the Bills brass with ex-Panthers, he loaded up on a ton of old Jets Barton, Barlow and McGinest.

 

McDermott will get this season and the offseason, but if 2019 starts off with more losing, I don't think he gets out of that season as a HC.

When Tomlin took over in Pittsburgh he didn't really change a thing, and he wasn't an incumbent coach, he was brand new, but he came in and learned Steeler football instead of Tomlin football.  That organization I am fairly convinced could win 8-10 games every year with a high school coach running the show.   It's an organizational culture they have towards winning.   They just win.   

 

I don't think Pete Caroll detonated the Seahawks when he took over either, he tweaked, and added, but didn't have some fire sale and gut the roster.   Miami has gutted their roster almost as many times as we have.   There is definitely a pattern for bad teams being blown up and staying bad and teams that get in good coaching staffs, retain most of their talent, and getting better.  

[Jauronimo]

22 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Biggest reason being he was signed to a ridiculous contract, it's not as if he was some irreplaceable part. I think it's sort of ridiculous to say an offense led by Taylor 'leaned' on Clay any more than it would have 'leaned' on whichever warm body they decided to throw in there at TE. 

Clay is just another warm body out there? 

[ctk232]

1 hour ago, Soda Popinski said:

I agree with a lot of this.   It wasn't necessary to completely detonate the entire roster.   But every new regime does it.  the Giants are doing it right now.   So is Oakland.   McVay didn't, and neither did Pederson when they took over....When Andy Reid took over the Chiefs, he basically traded for Alex Smith, and went from there.  He didn't detonate anything either.    The best seem to come in and take what's there and make it better.   The teams that don't, they blow it up, F*** it up, and get fired in 36-42 months. 

This is a good point - while not exactly causation there's a correlation here. I do wonder though what the contract/cap situations were when they inherited those teams and how it may or may not have affected the way they approached building their teams. Also, while not blowing up their rosters, how much of each current team is still around from when they began their coaching tenures?

 

The one thing for the Bills is that, while it's not the reason for our dismal state and certainly no excuse, we did have a few players on stupid large contracts that just weren't performing close to what they were being paid, a couple are still here, in a cap situation that wasn't headed anywhere remotely sustainable. It seems that it would make sense to take the dead cap hits from their salaries sooner than later and offload for any kind of ROI, which would be better than putting up with middling performances while paying top 5 contract amounts long term.

 

The Rams will lose their roster in the next 2-3 years, you think paying Donald, Gurley, and Goff not to mention other DBs and players will be sustainable? Wait til Mahomes is off his rookie contract and they need to resign Hunt and their WRs while still fielding a defense. Sure, they have a solid chance at a SB run in the meantime, which is certainly better than our current state. But unless they make it and win it in the next 2-3 years, barring any other roster moves it's unlikely their current situations are sustainable either. Lastly, I'm pretty sure neither McVay nor Reid declared their new teams to be undergoing a full rebuild, which McD and Beane have repeatedly confirmed they are doing - this is what rebuilds tend to look like in the NFL. Retaining rosters and adding select talent isn't exactly what people mean when they use the term.

Edited October 24, 2018 by ctk232

[Soda Popinski]

5 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

This is a good point - while not exactly causation there's a correlation here. I do wonder though what the contract/cap situations were when they inherited those teams and how it may or may not have affected the way they approached building their teams. Also, while not blowing up their rosters, how much of each current team is still around from when they began their coaching tenures?

 

The one thing for the Bills is that, while it's not the reason for our dismal state and certainly no excuse, we did have a few players on stupid large contracts that just weren't performing close to what they were being paid, a couple are still here, in a cap situation that wasn't headed anywhere remotely sustainable. It seems that it would make sense to take the dead cap hits from their salaries sooner than later and offload for any kind of ROI, which would be better than putting up with middling performances while paying top 5 contract amounts long term.

i really don't believe it has as much to do with the salary cap situation of a team as it does the stubbornness of coaches who have to have "their guys".   Hell Rex ruined a top 5 defense with his hubris.       How much was Dareus making vs how much his dead cap hit AND Star equals right now?  coaches get rid of players, then sign players and you end up doubling down for a year or two until that money is off your books.

 

Deep down coaches believe that they can compensate for lack of talent with better coaching, and in the NFL it never works.   They all come in with their own process for winning and start from scratch, well it's an NFL freaking roster, you don't have to start from scratch every NFL team has some talent hanging around.  And the coaches that don't have the ability to not only work with that talent but then add to it are the ones continuously circling the drains.    

 

I do think McDermott and Beane will get in better players in 2019 but I think this year is MUCH MUCH more of a throwaway year than it ever needed to be.   We could have been much more competitive with a few roster changes. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Soda Popinski

[Gigs]

On 10/22/2018 at 2:08 PM, Buffalo Barbarian said:

So Allen , Dawkins, White, Edmunds, Philips, Milano, Johnson along with McCoy, Kyle, Hughes, Star, Poyer .... Don't have talent??

 

 

Bro....put the kool aid down. Beane didn’t bring in KW, Shady, Milano, Poyer, White, Hyde and didn’t start off by acquiring those picks he used to get Allen and Edmunds (the latter being really the only good addition by Beane.)

 

Seems the process is riding the coat tales of Nix/Whaley’s progress and purging the team of the talent they brought in (and even the talent Beane brought in.)

[Tenhigh]

20 hours ago, Foreigner said:

I was called a troll the beginning of the year for knocking McDermott and Beane.

What's this WAS nonsense.

 

 

 

10HI is COLD BLOODED!

Wait, I'm HOT blooded!

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Tenhigh

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, Soda Popinski said:

When Tomlin took over in Pittsburgh he didn't really change a thing, and he wasn't an incumbent coach, he was brand new, but he came in and learned Steeler football instead of Tomlin football.  That organization I am fairly convinced could win 8-10 games every year with a high school coach running the show.   It's an organizational culture they have towards winning.   They just win.   

 

I don't think Pete Caroll detonated the Seahawks when he took over either, he tweaked, and added, but didn't have some fire sale and gut the roster.   Miami has gutted their roster almost as many times as we have.   There is definitely a pattern for bad teams being blown up and staying bad and teams that get in good coaching staffs, retain most of their talent, and getting better.  

The key to Seattle was their drafts. They stacked three great drafts in a row. 

 

2010 - Russell Okung, Earl Thomas, Golden Tate, Kam Chancellor and stole Lynch from Bills

2011 - KJ Wright, Richard Sherman, Brandon Browner signed as FA

2012 - Russell Wilson, Bobby Wagner

 

The Bengals had a similar result in three straight drafts and went from 4-12 to 10-6 and started making the Playoffs routinely. 

 

I can see "The Process" taking 3 years, but you have to stack drafts together with multiple hits. 

[Soda Popinski]

Just now, Straight Hucklebuck said:

The key to Seattle was their drafts. They stacked three great drafts in a row. 

 

2010 - Russell Okung, Earl Thomas, Golden Tate, Kam Chancellor and stole Lynch from Bills

2011 - KJ Wright, Richard Sherman, Brandon Browner signed as FA

2012 - Russell Wilson, Bobby Wagner

 

The Bengals had a similar result in three straight drafts and went from 4-12 to 10-6 and started making the Playoffs routinely. 

 

I can see "The Process" taking 3 years, but you have to stack drafts together with multiple hits. 

I do feel like we're drafting correctly to get this thing turned around.  Just not happy with a few things that have turned out to be catastrophic this season.   We could not be in worse shape at the QB position.   Hopefully this 3rd draft is what gets us back on track.  

[ctk232]

16 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

i really don't believe it has as much to do with the salary cap situation of a team as it does the stubbornness of coaches who have to have "their guys".   Hell Rex ruined a top 5 defense with his hubris.       How much was Dareus making vs how much his dead cap hit AND Star equals right now?  coaches get rid of players, then sign players and you end up doubling down for a year or two until that money is off your books.

 

Deep down coaches believe that they can compensate for lack of talent with better coaching, and in the NFL it never works.   They all come in with their own process for winning and start from scratch, well it's an NFL freaking roster, you don't have to start from scratch every NFL team has some talent hanging around.  And the coaches that don't have the ability to not only work with that talent but then add to it are the ones continuously circling the drains.    

 

I do think McDermott and Beane will get in better players in 2019 but I think this year is MUCH MUCH more of a throwaway year than it ever needed to be.   We could have been much more competitive with a few roster changes. 

I can agree with that. And I do see what you're saying. I wouldn't equate McD to Rex in terms of forcing his change upon the team - I think that mistake was much more detrimental to the team now than McD coming in post-rex. It's not fair to ask McD to take what Rex changed/f***ed up and make it work when they run entirely different defensive schemes. Offense is another question, but in order to bring in his defense they likely needed to offload what they could to make it happen. No one was sorry to see Sammy or Dareus go, albeit with small dissent among the board, and likely were more worried when Darby and Woods were dealt. There's concern now that Sammy is starting to actually play to his potential, and those who don't like Star suddenly forget people were calling out Dareus and his attitude not being worth his salary, much less his lack of motivation and play. Star does the same thing without the attitude. It's not an excuse to say Rex took an otherwise solid D, let go of a great DCoordinator in Schwartz, and continued to blow up this team.This is what McD had to work with and was no where near in line with the defense he was hired to create.

 

The one specific I don't agree with is, unpopular opinion warning, I like having Star more than Dareus. I don't think we needed to pay him that much, though. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by ctk232

[Soda Popinski]

1 minute ago, ctk232 said:

I can agree with that. And I do see what you're saying. I wouldn't equate McD to Rex in terms of forcing his change upon the team - I think that mistake was much more detrimental to the team now than McD coming in post-rex. It's not fair to ask McD to take what Rex changed/f***ed up and make it work when they run entirely different defensive schemes. Offense is another question, but in order to bring in his defense they likely needed to offload what they could to make it happen. No one was sorry to see Sammy or Dareus go, albeit with small dissent among the board, and likely were more worried when Darby and Woods were dealt. It's not an excuse to say Rex took an otherwise solid D, let go of a great DCoordinator in Schwartz, and continued to blow up this team.This is what McD had to work with and was no where near in line with the defense he was hired to create.

 

The one specific I don't agree with is, unpopular opinion warning, I like having Star more than Dareus. I don't think we needed to pay him that much, though. 

I think Star is doing what this org brought him in to do, i just think we could have signed Justin Pugh and John Sullivan to play guard and center, drafted a NT (Phillips) and signed a free agent on the cheap with the money the didn't spend on Bodine and Newhouse.    

 

And had they used the McCarron money on Bridgewater we would be in much better shape right now.  But that milk's on the floor. 

[KD in CA]

Woah...they don't?  I'm thunderstruck.

 

Thank you to the OP for shining a light on this revelation.

[ctk232]

1 minute ago, Soda Popinski said:

I think Star is doing what this org brought him in to do, i just think we could have signed Justin Pugh and John Sullivan to play guard and center, drafted a NT (Phillips) and signed a free agent on the cheap with the money the didn't spend on Bodine and Newhouse.    

 

And had they used the McCarron money on Bridgewater we would be in much better shape right now.  But that milk's on the floor. 

That makes sense, though I have to say I know little about Sullivan with the Rams, and not sure Pugh would've really been helpful after watching him with the Giants. Isn't he on that atrocious line in Zona now? But yes, anything was better than Newhouse, Bodine I'll admit I was okay with and has been serviceable albeit not a Wood replacement.

 

I thought Bridgewater had injury concerns and we just didn't want a QB with potential injury/health concerns - but I agree knowing what we know now the idea of having Bridgewater over McCarron makes sense, just don't think I would have thought so at the time.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

28 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

There's a difference between excuses and evidence. We made the picks for Allen and Edmunds, I wasn't high on Allen and I am still not nearly convinced given what we've seen, but a lot of factors have to come into play that lead me to reserve judgment on him until he develops more and within a competent offense. What's your problem with Edmunds? Are you inferring Incognito left because of the paycut or what was the problem there? He literally quit on a mental breakdown, that's what happened. McD/Beane didn't inherit a dumpsterfire, but they inherited a team who's ceiling was proven to be 8-8, maybe 9-7, and in order to make the moves needed to perennially compete and especially compete for an SB (the end goal, mind you) would take giving up more of what we currently had. The cap absolutely plays a role in terms of who you can and can't bring in, it's not the reason we are where we are but it's a factor. I still don't know how I feel about Daboll and I'll admit I'm not high on him at present. These aren't excuses, it's just reality and we're approaching it very differently. While you've become fed up with blowout losses and what you've seen thus far and it's caused you to quit on what you're seeing for the future already, I'm choosing to wait and see more efficacious data before saying the ship is totally sunk and let's move on already.

 

I don't know what is on the way in the next seasons - no one does. I'm not predicting a complete turnaround or a playoff berth next year. We can all be skeptical based upon what we've seen, I am as well. The issue is calling it now before anything happens and treating this like it was the result they've been building toward. I agree some decisions have been questionable, and others have actually been for the better. All I'm saying is it's impossible to judge something that isn't even here yet - and while the current state is one of complete lack of competitiveness and ability on offense, who's to say what will and won't happen next year or the year after? The reason it is such an unknown is because of the cap space and draft picks giving us greater opportunity to right things and fill holes than not. It's not an excuse, it's a reason why no one knows for certain what will happen after this year.

Again, clear as day, I said they made the Playoffs in 2017, so they get 2018 and 2019. 

 

We're 23 games into the McDermott era and we're 11-13. 

 

Keep the faith, but this is the Bills. We look like we always look. A poor offense, a talented, but thin, overwhelmed defense, a journeyman backup QB filling in, and a sub 0.500 record. 

 

Now we have to convince FA WRs to come to Buffalo and actually show some restraint in the Draft not to trade up in the early rounds. 

 

[Bring it]

IMO you need culture and talent! But culture first as you build a team! You also need some great talent as leaders who believe in a certain culture. Especially at Qb. As you add players probably young draft picks they are immersed into that culture as a “this is the way to do things” belief!

I think we have that culture but are just really starting to add the young talent. Hate to say it but it’s going to take awhile! If you consider the last 2years of draft picks: White, Milano, Edmunds, Allen, Johnson, Phillips and Dawkins. All show big upsides so the future is bright if Mcbeane can hang on long enough till the changes start to pay off and/or Brady retires! Cause that will change the division in a hurry!

[Soda Popinski]

9 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

That makes sense, though I have to say I know little about Sullivan with the Rams, and not sure Pugh would've really been helpful after watching him with the Giants. Isn't he on that atrocious line in Zona now? But yes, anything was better than Newhouse, Bodine I'll admit I was okay with and has been serviceable albeit not a Wood replacement.

 

I thought Bridgewater had injury concerns and we just didn't want a QB with potential injury/health concerns - but I agree knowing what we know now the idea of having Bridgewater over McCarron makes sense, just don't think I would have thought so at the time.

you're not wrong about any of that. Pugh has actually been injured for them so not helping out a ton.     I'm just pissing and moaning because we suck so bad and looking back at what we might have done.   

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Being on time for meetings, working really hard, studying tape a lot does not meaningfully differentiate you for other NFL teams.

[HomeskillitMoorman]

15 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Can you “convert” this into an actual football insight? You’ve done your best on this and other threads, to turn this into some kind of a debate about spirituality and knocking any player for it, yet seemingly miss that each Bills’ player or coach, just like everyone else here, make personal decisions about faith, none of which  has anything whatsoever to do with their roster role or football acumen/ability. Although, isn’t it ironic that a Christian like Drew Brees plays at a high level for the “Saints?” That smells like a conspiracy to me for which Loomis and Payton should be fired—by your logic. C’mon man, I know you’re better than this kind of intellectually vacant posting. Can we talk ball ? now?

 

How do you know that it has nothing to do with their roster role? You mentioned you've seen my other posts...I believe this is the only one I made where I didn't include the reasons for why I think this could be a possibility. I disagreed with the specific thread I made on it being closed...but I think you had commented on that one...I did list the reasons behind my suspicions there. I asked about what football reason there possibly could be for Peterman still being here, and I think that's completely legitimate. Whether it's talent, arm strength, intangibles, vision...I'd love to hear about what he has that's on the NFL level. But even in that thread, you just shot the notion of this possibility down and told me to talk football...even though you didn't do that yourself. 

 

If Drew Brees was as horrific at what he does as Peterman is...I would understand some sort of logic to bringing him up.

 

Much crazier things have happened because of religion than this. Peterman has been completely outspoken about it and we definitely know where McDermott is on it. Pegula himself mentioned McDermott being a man of faith being a plus, which already shows some kind of bias for a football coach where there shouldn't be, it's completely irrelevant to his job. 

 

I think there are logical reasons to have this belief...and it makes more sense than saying otherwise without any other reason besides "just because". 

[ctk232]

39 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Again, clear as day, I said they made the Playoffs in 2017, so they get 2018 and 2019. 

 

We're 23 games into the McDermott era and we're 11-13. 

 

Keep the faith, but this is the Bills. We look like we always look. A poor offense, a talented, but thin, overwhelmed defense, a journeyman backup QB filling in, and a sub 0.500 record. 

 

Now we have to convince FA WRs to come to Buffalo and actually show some restraint in the Draft not to trade up in the early rounds. 

 

That has been a concern that makes me more skeptical than not - I do think money will win out, but ultimately limit the amount of players we can bring in. Winning helps with FA, rebuilds are mostly done through the draft as a result of losing seasons as you state, so keeping as much draft capital is needed. Though we do have capital to work with should we want to trade up and add picks in the 1st or 2nd, or even trade down in the 1st to do that. Only caveat being if we land a top 3 pick, I'd be really tempted to pick Oliver/Bosa despite that not being a position of need if both are truly generational talent.

 

Looking at the current crop of FA receivers, there are a couple I'd bring in, and plenty I'd avoid the contracts for. Honestly, I know it's a Carolina thing, but I'd like to see Funchess here if he doesn't resign, and draft a WR to help. KB can stay or go, but I'm curious how he will do as a WR2/3 on a roster (albeit likely overpaid for that role depending on his contract).

38 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

you're not wrong about any of that. Pugh has actually been injured for them so not helping out a ton.     I'm just pissing and moaning because we suck so bad and looking back at what we might have done.   

It's hard not to, the writing is there - had we been the least bit competitive this year this tone of this board would be different. To me, at least, it's clear the severity of comments/posts is mostly related to that more so than the issues at hand, topically speaking.

 

Hindsight is 20/20 but can blind you to potential future hope at times. There's still a lot of unknowns and no guarantee things would have worked out any other way - for all we know it very well could all just be Daboll (though unlikely) or all just be the QB situation (though also unlikely). The only certainty we have is we are currently playing our way into a top 5 pick, we have a ton of free cap which will make FA fun on here, and plenty o' draft picks, which will make the months leading up to April fun on here with the million and one mocks. It's not what we should be looking forward to in October, but it's not exactly recycling previous years where we had average to little cap and a standard slew of picks in the draft. Enjoy the unknowns with hope, while it's been our history since 94, no guarantee this goes the same way either. 

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Clay is just another warm body out there? 

No more or less so than any other guy who's suited up at TE the last 4 years. I think Clay is a talented guy, and I loved getting him from MIA, but he just hasn't separated himself from O'Leary when he was here or Gragg before him in terms of Y/R, his production is simply a function of his use. That's not to say he isn't a good player, but my original contention that they haven't leaned on him (which, again, they obviously have but only inasmuch as any team might lean on their TE1, and in the Bills case even less so) was indicative more of a series of very limited passing offenses than any reliance on a particular player. I stand by the point that this team has not 'leaned' on Clay in any way they couldn't have with whichever TE2 happened to be on the roster.

[stuvian]

waiting for talent to come around has got us to the decade of fail. Great organizations build culture and process so that above average talent can succeed in the absence of great talent 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 hours ago, ctk232 said:

That has been a concern that makes me more skeptical than not - I do think money will win out, but ultimately limit the amount of players we can bring in. Winning helps with FA, rebuilds are mostly done through the draft as a result of losing seasons as you state, so keeping as much draft capital is needed. Though we do have capital to work with should we want to trade up and add picks in the 1st or 2nd, or even trade down in the 1st to do that. Only caveat being if we land a top 3 pick, I'd be really tempted to pick Oliver/Bosa despite that not being a position of need if both are truly generational talent.

 

Looking at the current crop of FA receivers, there are a couple I'd bring in, and plenty I'd avoid the contracts for. Honestly, I know it's a Carolina thing, but I'd like to see Funchess here if he doesn't resign, and draft a WR to help. KB can stay or go, but I'm curious how he will do as a WR2/3 on a roster (albeit likely overpaid for that role depending on his contract).

I do not want the Bills to move up and down the board. 

 

Realistically when you look at this roster the Bills need players at: RB, TE, C, OG, RT, WR, in addition to another DE, OLB, CB. 

 

That's 9 positions without duplicates. 

 

You trade up, you burn picks, you trade down and you miss better talent. I honestly think trading McCoy, Benjamin is the best strategy, if you can get anything for them, and then staying disciplined. 

 

Looking through the list, there are a few decent WRs - Beasley, Enunwa, Tyrell Williams, Adam Humphries, Robby Anderson, Funchess. Maybe you can convince two of them to come here.

 

Same with Tight End, there are few options, the entire depth chart there needs to be blown out and rebooted. 

 

Its going to be an uphill battle. 

 

 

[ctk232]

12 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I do not want the Bills to move up and down the board. 

 

Realistically when you look at this roster the Bills need players at: RB, TE, C, OG, RT, WR, in addition to another DE, OLB, CB. 

 

That's 9 positions without duplicates. 

 

You trade up, you burn picks, you trade down and you miss better talent. I honestly think trading McCoy, Benjamin is the best strategy, if you can get anything for them, and then staying disciplined. 

 

Looking through the list, there are a few decent WRs - Beasley, Enunwa, Tyrell Williams, Adam Humphries, Robby Anderson, Funchess. Maybe you can convince two of them to come here.

 

Same with Tight End, there are few options, the entire depth chart there needs to be blown out and rebooted. 

 

Its going to be an uphill battle. 

 

 

You aren't going to address all of those needs perfectly in one offseason, much less all of them period, no matter how much cap space or draft picks you have or how needed it is. There's an argument to be made for packaging late round picks (which is all we have capital of) for moving up to select more talent, or trading down later in the first and getting extra first/second round picks. I'm realistically only expecting OL and WR to be addressed via early draft picks, and depending on our first round pick, BPA which would likely be defensive.

 

We can add what we get in FA, likely at the OL and WR positions as well. The only WRs worth anything on that list imho are Funchess, and maybe Enunwa and Williams - Anderson is garbage, just ask any Jets fan, and Humphries is along the same lines (former roomies were jets and bucs fans so we still watch all those games, and get to listen to the issues). Not worth overpaying for these C list players.

 

For me, as long as we seriously address OL and WR this year - I'm okay either signing a B list TE or sticking with Clay and Croom one more year. RB is the same if we keep Shady for another year as well, though a late round pick on a RB wouldn't hurt. Not everyone we end up bringing in will obviously work out, but my priorities are maximizing our chances at OL and WR primarily - not so much the other positions. While it doesn't eradicate the issues, having a stout OL decreases the severity of need at most every other offensive position outside of QB. Our defensive position needs are there, but less warranted with an offense that stays on the field and puts up points.

 

But alas, an uphill battle indeed. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by ctk232

[Buffalo Barbarian]

15 hours ago, iinii said:

Not enough. You need at least 22 and you have named 12. It is akin to what Marv said about depth.

 

And we are obviously aren't done yet.