Tyrod Taylor: I still feel that I’d done more than enough to stay

[stuvian]

11 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

Yea he’s just playing possum 

 

Year 12 is when those talents will soar 

 

I honestly think he'll have a Randall Cunningham/Rich Gannon style renaissance

[twoandfourteen]

3 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Obviously not.

You don't need to be a 300 yard passer.  You need to be clutch which he wasn't.

 

I definitely agree about the "clutch" criticism. He was terrible when the Bills were down by even one score -- it was game over. 

 

I don't agree about the 300 yd comment. The ability to produce 300 yards of passing offense in a game at least occasionally in the modern NFL is a bare minimum standard of competence at the position. 

 

During Tyrod's tenure from 2015-2017, 52 NFL QBs produced at least one 300+ yd performance. Tyrod barely made the list, but only because he hit 300 one time -- and it was in OT vs the Dolphins. He was sub-300 at the end of regulation. For reference, Brian Hoyer hit 300+ 7 times. 

[FearLess Price]

19 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

You wanted to see certain stats from Taylor, others respond with stats, you respond with "a game is more stats."

 

That made me

 

Nice work.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

5 minutes ago, FearLess Price said:

 

That made me

 

Nice work.

Having people on ignore sometimes is a hindrance, but the purpose is to avoid the ignorance.  

 

WRT  stats  —  let’s talk about achievements and effectiveness.  

 

When you need to pass and you can’t  then you have a problem.  

 

The ability to pass 300 yards as needed is a good and effective thing.  

 

Is 300 yards more an achievement or a stat.  

 

YPP is a stat.  

3rd down conversion is a stat.  Completion % is a stat that doesn’t account for poorly placed passes. 

 

So the TT people can’t brag on his “great stats” all they want, but when they ignore the incompetence it is confounding.  

 

Having 4 very lousy games in 5 weeks is bad no matter how you look at it.   

[Big Gun]

47 minutes ago, twoandfourteen said:

 

I definitely agree about the "clutch" criticism. He was terrible when the Bills were down by even one score -- it was game over. 

 

I don't agree about the 300 yd comment. The ability to produce 300 yards of passing offense in a game at least occasionally in the modern NFL is a bare minimum standard of competence at the position. 

 

During Tyrod's tenure from 2015-2017, 52 NFL QBs produced at least one 300+ yd performance. Tyrod barely made the list, but only because he hit 300 one time -- and it was in OT vs the Dolphins. He was sub-300 at the end of regulation. For reference, Brian Hoyer hit 300+ 7 times. 

I know, right.

 

It's not like passing yards aren't used as one of the criteria by the HOF to critique a QB worthiness. 

 

Only in the loony world of Tyrod defenders are QB passing yards not important.  

 

Comedy at it's finest

Edited June 3, 2018 by PeterGriffin

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 minute ago, PeterGriffin said:

I know, right.

 

It's not like passing yards aren't used as one of the criteria by the HOF to critique a QB worthiness. 

 

Only in the loony world of Tyrod defenders are passing yards not important.  

 

Comedy at it's finest

 

Is it like saying 

 

200 yards - its not about the size but how you use it.  

For the 7 year vet (Tay Tay) fans it’s a good thing for the 2nd year AJ it’s a bad thing. 

 

[Young34]

16 hours ago, Zebrastripes said:

Everyone that has argued yards doesn't matter doesn't take into account the fact Tyrod regressed from season 1 to season 3 as a starter.  Every example people use such as Brady and Brees is nonsense because both of these guys showed steady improvement from year 1 and beyond.  Brees did have the hiccup in year 2 as a starter but showed steady improvement in year 3 and beyond.

Plus let's take a look at average passing yards per game from then until now.  I bet there is a difference.

Never once did I say that yards don't matter. What I said was that yards shouldn't be the sole metric for judging a QB off of. There's a ton of data that goes into a QB's performance, and everything should be considered.

 

Btw, Brady regressed in his second full season as starter, so your blanket statement of "steady improvement" year after year isn't necessarily true either, and it doesn't need to be. Every pro QB has hiccup seasons, some just brush it off and move forward, such as Brees who you mentioned. What matters is the final product, which is where Tyrod absolutely didn't pan out. I would've been just find with Tyrod having some rough seasons if he cleaned it up in the end, but he simply regressed year after year.

[HOUSE]

On 6/2/2018 at 8:20 AM, Zebrastripes said:

Biggest difference here is tyrod had 3 years and regressed over them 3 years.  He was afraid to make throws or just didnt see open guys.  I should have led with that.  Brees improved from one year to the next.  If brees continued the ame path as the year you stated he would have been out of the league but he didn't he improved where as tyrod did not improve.

 

Do we really need anymore reasons for trading him....says it all

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 minutes ago, Young34 said:

Btw, Brady regressed in his second full season as starter, so your blanket statement of "steady improvement" year after year isn't necessarily true either, and it doesn't need to be.

Brady (and the team) “regressed” because the Pats gave up on the run that season. 

 

The 3rd season they focused on the run again and the Pats has better success.  

 

 

[Zebrastripes]

5 minutes ago, Young34 said:

Never once did I say that yards don't matter. What I said was that yards shouldn't be the sole metric for judging a QB off of. There's a ton of data that goes into a QB's performance, and everything should be considered.

 

Btw, Brady regressed in his second full season as starter, so your blanket statement of "steady improvement" year after year isn't necessarily true either, and it doesn't need to be. Every pro QB has hiccup seasons, some just brush it off and move forward, such as Brees who you mentioned. What matters is the final product, which is where Tyrod absolutely didn't pan out. I would've been just find with Tyrod having some rough seasons if he cleaned it up in the end, but he simply regressed year after year.

He attempted 80 less passes that year which would coincide with less yards and tds.  His qbr however did go up.

[Young34]

6 minutes ago, Zebrastripes said:

He attempted 80 less passes that year which would coincide with less yards and tds.  His qbr however did go up.

It did go up from 2002-2003, by .2%. from 2001 - 2002, his QBR dropped off by 10 points.

 

QBR is a rough way to judge QB's though. For example, Tyrod had a much higher QBR than Brady did in each of their first three seasons, which clearly isn't a great example.

[YoloinOhio]

On 6/2/2018 at 10:55 AM, JaCrispy said:

He really is delusional...and that’s the biggest reason the bills needed to move on...if he truly feels he had done enough and the team decided to keep him, the bills were doomed to fail.

Well he did tweet out asking for pro bowl votes after one of the worst games of his career...

[NoSaint]

10 hours ago, twoandfourteen said:

 

How dare people use passing yards to assess the performance of a QB?

 

What's next -- using the number points each team scores to determine which one won the game? 

 

Let's go to the tape! Breakdown that video! 

 

 

 

Sometimes we overthink the hell out of it all...  when a guy regularly comes up short of the minimum, and rarely puts on a good showing.... well... yea, maybe he has bad receivers or mediocre protection but at least once in awhile you’d hope to at least see it flash with a big passing day.

 

TT is a limited passer. That can win you some games still, and maybe even a ring if he gets hot at the right time with a great defense ala a guy like Flacco..... but you can look at those stats and say he’s not going to be THE guy

[Zebrastripes]

2 minutes ago, Young34 said:

It did go up from 2002-2003, by .2%. from 2001 - 2002, his QBR dropped off by 10 points.

 

QBR is a rough way to judge QB's though. For example, Tyrod had a much higher QBR than Brady did in each of their first three seasons, which clearly isn't a great example.

Valid point.  If a qb continues to make safe easy plays and not take a shot his qbr will be greatly inflated.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Zebrastripes said:

I actually looked these up myself.  The biggest problem with these numbers and comparing them directly with the Bills years is the fact that woods and Watkins were the 3rd and 4th leading receiver on the Rams.  When they were on the Bills they were the first and second.  

 

Good point.

 

The second issue with comparing them as a metric of QB productivity, is the need to consider the overall offensive scheme. 

In 2017, the Rams passed 53% of their QB plays from scrimmage (eg not including punts, FGA etc).  In 2015, the Bills ran 52% of their QB plays from scrimmage. 

 

The Rams in 2017 had the #1 offense in the league for points scored.  The 2015 Bills were #12 - I think  top 10 projecting the Tyrod games to 16.  So clearly overall the Rams were running a more effective offense in 2017 than the Bills in 2015.

 

 

[Shaw66]

17 minutes ago, THE SLAMMER said:

 

Do we really need anymore reasons for trading him....says it all

You're correct. As Zebra said, Taylor regressed over three seasons as a starter.  Yes he had a coaching change in there, but still, his first season as a starter should not have been the best, by far, of the three.  By season three he should have been making plays that made a difference to the team, and we weren't seeing them.   Four seasons on the bench plus three starting should have added up to more.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Well he did tweet out asking for pro bowl votes after one of the worst games of his career...

 

That was Sooooo bad.

[Zebrastripes]

8 hours ago, grb said:

 

Is this a Taylor-specific rule, or does it apply to other players and positions?

If so, let's look at a running back in the 2017 season :

 

Panthers : 12 carries,   09 yards    0.75 ypa

Broncos  :  14 carries,   21 yards   1.50 ypa

Jets         :  12 carries,   25 yards   2.08 ypa

Chiefs     :   22 carries,   49 yards   2.23 ypa

Dolphins :   20 carries,   50 yards   2.50 ypa

Dolphins :   11 carries    10 yards   0.91 ypa

 

Said running back got 27% of his season's yards in just two games, which is how he could amass the horror show above. Now : Before heads explode, let me be clear : I think LeSean McCoy is a national treasure, whose visage should be on Mt Rushmore. And there are so many caveats to this list : The worst games are the ones up-top, when the Bills still suffered the strongest effects of a dim-witted scheme change to the blocking. McCoy was out with an injury half the last Dolphin game, so take that into account. Plus, running backs need holes to run thru, which McCoy frequently did not have. So context is important in this case. Just like it doesn't hurt to consider a quarterback was playing with a bad offensive coordinator, spotty pass protection, a tight end who missed a quarter of the season (and could rarely practice otherwise), and one of the worst sets of receivers in the National Football League.

 

Context !!!  After all, a feature running back averaging 27.3 yards at 1.82 yards a carry over six games of a season might fail to meet your lofty standards.

 

 

 

 

Yet shady still finished 4th in yards.  Don't just cherry pick numbers to help your argument.  Look at the overall season.  Nice try though.

[FearLess Price]

38 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

Having people on ignore sometimes is a hindrance, but the purpose is to avoid the ignorance.  

 

WRT  stats  —  let’s talk about achievements and effectiveness.  

 

When you need to pass and you can’t  then you have a problem.  

 

The ability to pass 300 yards as needed is a good and effective thing.  

 

Is 300 yards more an achievement or a stat.  

 

YPP is a stat.  

3rd down conversion is a stat.  Completion % is a stat that doesn’t account for poorly placed passes. 

 

So the TT people can’t brag on his “great stats” all they want, but when they ignore the incompetence it is confounding.  

 

Having 4 very lousy games in 5 weeks is bad no matter how you look at it.   

 

Youre preeching to the wrong crowd. Stats can be manipulated to support either opinion. I really dont give a f about it anymore. TT was fun and frustrating to watch, much funner to watch than Ortan or EJ, hands down, and for that he gets brownie points alone. We were so boring on offense before tyrod came thru with his random sandlot plays. I still preech at the CoT but it is what it is. Tyrod wasnt good enough to put the roster on his back and win with his arm like he won vs tenesee with his legs. We got a 3rd round pick and broke the draught through a flawed but sometimes electric QB. We won. Tyrod gets a 1 year fck it season in the factory of sadness to make a push for a new starting contract on another team next year. Only problem is hes going against the afc north who have his number and always shut him down. Its really do or die as a back up for him this season. Hard knocks is gonna be dope this year and the browns got enough weapons on offense to be fun to watch no matter who starts at QB. We used that 3rd to replace our MLB with a solid prospect in the 1st. It was a win/win trade scenario.

[Zebrastripes]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

In 2017, the Rams passed 53% of their QB plays from scrimmage (eg not including punts, FGA etc).  In 2015, the Bills ran 52% of their QB plays from scrimmage

Not being snarky by asking this I'm just curious to where you found these stats from?  They are super detailed and i2d like to take a deeper look into them.

[JinxedBill1]

I hope he lights it up in Cleveland.  I'm not concerned with anything other than his hesitation to throw guys open.  You can win any big game doing that.  He'll win you 7 to 9 games a year but we want to be better than that.  I honestly think that's what the coaches thought when they traded him,

[HOUSE]

I will miss those 9 to 6 wins with Superior Buffalo Bills field goal kicking

[ColoradoBills]

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

44 minutes ago, Young34 said:

It did go up from 2002-2003, by .2%. from 2001 - 2002, his QBR dropped off by 10 points.

 

QBR is a rough way to judge QB's though. For example, Tyrod had a much higher QBR than Brady did in each of their first three seasons, which clearly isn't a great example.

Which is why many say stats lie.  

 

 

44 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Well he did tweet out asking for pro bowl votes after one of the worst games of his career...

Sad wasn’t it 

28 minutes ago, FearLess Price said:

Youre preeching to the wrong crowd. Stats can be manipulated to support either opinion.

I was “preaching” to those that think Tyrod actually did enough to stay here at least 1 more season and those who claim his stats justify it.  

 

( the guy who tried to mock me)

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Zebrastripes said:

Not being snarky by asking this I'm just curious to where you found these stats from?  They are super detailed and i2d like to take a deeper look into them.

 

Math was involved.  Pro-football-reference, look up the team and the season

Pass or rush attempts/(pass attempts + rush attempts).   

The point is to get a apples-to-apples comparison of how much a given offense relies on the pass vs the run, without bringing in number of punts etc.

[BringBackOrton]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

 

Sometimes we overthink the hell out of it all...  when a guy regularly comes up short of the minimum, and rarely puts on a good showing.... well... yea, maybe he has bad receivers or mediocre protection but at least once in awhile you’d hope to at least see it flash with a big passing day.

 

TT is a limited passer. That can win you some games still, and maybe even a ring if he gets hot at the right time with a great defense ala a guy like Flacco..... but you can look at those stats and say he’s not going to be THE guy

I feel like I've talked about this a lot, but how often you get hot matters and how hot you get matters.

 

Flacco had a few games every year or every other year where he looked like he was the best QB in the league.  TT never has.  That's why Flacco got the big bucks and TT is a career backup/fringe starter.

11 hours ago, grb said:

 

You know, I understand why you say that. It's what everyone else around here is saying, so it has to be true, right?

 

However, what happens when you actually look? We can't use 2016. Watkins spent half the season on injured reserve / half playing on a broken left foot (with Woods also injured about half the year as well) So let's compare 2015 Taylor, vs 2017 Goff :

• Sammy Watkins :  2015 : 60 recp,  1047 yds,  17.5 ypc, 9 tds
• Sammy Watkins :  2017 : 39 recp,    593 yds,  15.2 ypc, 8 tds
• Robert Woods    :  2015 : 47 recp,     552 yds,  11.7 ypc, 3 tds
• Robert Woods    :  2017 : 56 recp,     781 yds,  13.9 ypc, 5 tds

So then we do the obvious, and compare Taylor vs Goff re W&W :

• W&W : 2015  : 107 recp,  1599 yds, 14.94 ypc, 12 tds
• W&W : 2017  :   95 recp,  1374 yds, 14.46 ypc, 13 tds

Not the numbers you expected to see, amirite?

 

 

Do you mind adding Goodwin?  I think you see a 700 yard difference, but not in the way you'd want.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

48 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

Which is why many say stats lie.  

 

QBR is just bad.  I'm not sure it's even properly characterized as a stat: there are a number of what are essentially 'opinions' about the importance of different plays at different points in the game, how much pressure a QB is under etc. folded into it.   " Unlike the NFL passer rating, ESPN has not yet been forthcoming on the exact specific formulas and procedures to calculate QBR.^[7] The proprietary, complex methodology spans some 10,000 lines of code" (that's after various assessments off film are folded into it)

 

48 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

I was “preaching” to those that think Tyrod actually did enough to stay here at least 1 more season and those who claim his stats justify it.  

 

I think purely on an offensive output basis, Tyrod could arguably the better choice here for 1 more season.  Looked at objectively,AJM to date (while a better pocket QB) had similar passing production in his limited NFL games, and lacks the run contributions of Taylor.  I think the Bills moved on for a number of factors beyond pure offensive output, and I'm OK with that choice.  Sometimes "good" (or average, or mediocre, or whatever word one prefers) is the enemy of "great" IOW one has to risk possibly taking a drop in performance in order to set up for an improvement.

[Zebrastripes]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Math was involved.  Pro-football-reference, look up the team and the season

Pass or rush attempts/(pass attempts + rush attempts).   

The point is to get a apples-to-apples comparison of how much a given offense relies on the pass vs the run, without bringing in number of punts etc.

Ok thank you I was just wondering if there was a site with all the math done already just for a quick reference.

[Big Gun]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

You're correct. As Zebra said, Taylor regressed over three seasons as a starter.  Yes he had a coaching change in there, but still, his first season as a starter should not have been the best, by far, of the three.  By season three he should have been making plays that made a difference to the team, and we weren't seeing them.   Four seasons on the bench plus three starting should have added up to more.  

Yup, and this suggests he took the league by storm and opponents didn't know how to stop him in 2015.

 

He was figured out somewhat in 2016

 

Then figured out even more in 2017

 

I expect he'll get even more shut down in 2018.

 

IMO of course.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, Zebrastripes said:

Ok thank you I was just wondering if there was a site with all the math done already just for a quick reference.

 

If you find one LMK...I think some of the pay-for-value sites have it.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...unfortunately, the passing game was never going to become a viable offensive threat, particularly downfield.......nor was it a reasonable expectation that he could put this club on his back and win games with an attacking passing offense to bail out the stalled running game....5 seconds or less to work with ain't easy for the majority (Steve Young eloquently said, "MORE collegians fail versus succeed at the NFL level due to the speed and complexity of the game..").....NOT ONE DOUBT this kid's heart and ethic were in the right place, but that scant 5 seconds or less was an inherent weakness.....doesn't have a damn thing to do with stats..........

Edited June 3, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, PeterGriffin said:

Yup, and this suggests he took the league by storm and opponents didn't know how to stop him in 2015.

He was figured out somewhat in 2016

Then figured out even more in 2017

I expect he'll get even more shut down in 2018.

IMO of course.

 

I see it a bit differently. 

 

GRo tried to "progress the offense" in 2016 by putting in more plays/more passing offense and it stumbled; simplifying it under ALynn helped, but Taylor was hampered by WR injuries.  This past year, I think we were trying to run a blocking scheme and run game that didn't suit our OL and a passing game that Taylor couldn't execute, and Dennison was slow both to adjust to what the opponents D was doing within games, and painfully slow to adapt his offense to what our guys could actually do.

 

But we'll see what happens in Cleveland.  I don't think Taylor will do very well under Haley myself, but it's possible Haley might have learned something.

 

[Shaw66]

19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

QBR is just bad.  I'm not sure it's even properly characterized as a stat: there are a number of what are essentially 'opinions' about the importance of different plays at different points in the game, how much pressure a QB is under etc. folded into it.   " Unlike the NFL passer rating, ESPN has not yet been forthcoming on the exact specific formulas and procedures to calculate QBR.^[7] The proprietary, complex methodology spans some 10,000 lines of code" (that's after various assessments off film are folded into it)

 

 

I like the passer rating. The best QBs have thw best passer rating, and the mediocre qbs, like Taylor, are 10 to 15 points lower.   The stat correlates well.  

[Zebrastripes]

24 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If you find one LMK...I think some of the pay-for-value sites have it.

Will do thanks again

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I see it a bit differently. 

 

GRo tried to "progress the offense" in 2016 by putting in more plays/more passing offense and it stumbled; simplifying it under ALynn helped, but Taylor was hampered by WR injuries.  This past year, I think we were trying to run a blocking scheme and run game that didn't suit our OL and a passing game that Taylor couldn't execute, and Dennison was slow both to adjust to what the opponents D was doing within games, and painfully slow to adapt his offense to what our guys could actually do.

 

But we'll see what happens in Cleveland.  I don't think Taylor will do very well under Haley myself, but it's possible Haley might have learned something.

 

 

...pretty typical mumblin', brumblin', stumblin', grumblin' with the QB spot at OBD, the "Mecca of QB Evaluation & Development" and the patchwork gang of misfits post Polian......Fitz, the well traveled journeyman,  was signed to SOLELY back up "Bambi" Edwards who was already cemented in as the starter...Nix drafted EJ as 2nd fiddle to Gnome after their workout & interview with him....so we sign the FIVE+ times concussed Kolb to be his vet presence, brilliant!....and the "Mat Attack" ensued....raw as tartare EJ gets thrown to the wolves with ZERO confidence, NONE.....moving on, we cut Cassel and Roman goes ballistic internally at OBD....so how much of an effort did he REALLY put forth in working with TT?...maybe that's why Wrecks fired him because TT was his guy.....and I STILL think there was no luvfest between Dennison and TT...some game plans exploited TT's wheels whereas others were WTF head scratchers....despite my long winded yap, trying to say we have NEVER come close to having a relatively normal environment for a QB to develop in....sure as hell hope McBeane/McD/McDaboll get it right even if Allen doesn't materialize....

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

.....despite my long winded yap, trying to say we have NEVER come close to having a relatively normal environment for a QB to develop in....sure as hell hope McBeane/McD/McDaboll get it right even if Allen doesn't materialize....

 

Hear, hear!

[Doc Brown]

13 minutes ago, PeterGriffin said:

Yup, and this suggests he took the league by storm and opponents didn't know how to stop him in 2015.

 

He was figured out somewhat in 2016

 

Then figured out even more in 2017

 

I expect he'll get even more shut down in 2018.

 

IMO of course.

I was about to make this same point.  When defenses kept him inside the pocket and made him be a quarterback he often struggled.  He kind of reminded me of Flutie on that regard.  If teams get pressure from the DE's and assigned an athletic LB as a QB spy you saw a lot of three and outs.  

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Hear, hear!

 

if you believe the media, better get your rosary beads out......

[Big Gun]

7 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

This. 

 

People seem to think the Bills won inspite of Tyrod last season. It's just not the case.

2800 yards and 14 TDs boy oh boy was he a catalyst last year. 

[reddogblitz]

11 hours ago, grb said:

Context !!!  After all, a feature running back averaging 27.3 yards at 1.82 yards a carry over six games of a season might fail to meet your lofty standards.

 

McCoy's ypc dropped 1.4 from 2016.