Bleeding Bills Blue Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 9 minutes ago, JohnC said: Excellent post and analysis. What you are basically saying is that he is your typical jag (just another guy). That's a fair assessment. However, when you consider that he was a first round pick and what he appears to be is your standard interchangeable player. At best he is a solid player, and at worse he is an inconsequential player who can be replaced by another inconsequential player without a trace of difference. If he's a JAG, then the value has to be decent coming back. I believe his cap hit is the same whether we keep him or trade him (base salaries would be paid by the new team). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D521646 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, JohnC said: Excellent post and analysis. What you are basically saying is that he is your typical jag (just another guy). That's a fair assessment. However, when you consider that he was a first round pick and what he appears to be is your standard interchangeable player. At best he is a solid player, and at worse he is an inconsequential player who can be replaced by another inconsequential player without a trace of difference. Yeah of course he can be replaced, and although his role as a run stopping DE is coveted by DC's in the NFL, they're not shiny things that fans love to see. Fans don't, as a general rule, and evidenced in this very thread, covet role type players, even if they are very good at their particular role. I think what most fans at TSW think is that he was over-drafted, which, for the most part is entirely true, but it doesn't disparage his role on the team now, or in the future. Coaches don't care about whether a guy was taken too early, only that they fill a need, and are good at it. His ball awareness is also very good, in fact, I'm not sure I can point to a bad game he's had this year? Again, solid contributor, not shiny, guys of his skill-set can be found later in most drafts, but we have him, we paid a 1st for him, and hindsight is always 20/20. It's not enough to move on from him, and whether he was another regimes pick is pointless. As already stated in this thread, coaches don't care about who drafted a player, only that he is a player, and plays well within the spectrum of the defense scheme. Shaq does that, and I think McD knows it! Tim- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, D521646 said: Yeah of course he can be replaced, and although his role as a run stopping DE is coveted by DC's in the NFL, they're not shiny things that fans love to see. Fans don't, as a general rule, and evidenced in this very thread, covet role type players, even if they are very good at their particular role. I think what most fans at TSW think is that he was over-drafted, which, for the most part is entirely true, but it doesn't disparage his role on the team now, or in the future. Coaches don't care about whether a guy was taken too early, only that they fill a need, and are good at it. His ball awareness is also very good, in fact, I'm not sure I can point to a bad game he's had this year? Again, solid contributor, not shiny, guys of his skill-set can be found later in most drafts, but we have him, we paid a 1st for him, and hindsight is always 20/20. It's not enough to move on from him, and whether he was another regimes pick is pointless. As already stated in this thread, coaches don't care about who drafted a player, only that he is a player, and plays well within the spectrum of the defense scheme. Shaq does that, and I think McD knows it! Tim- I'm not disparaging his role. Far from it. The point is that what he does can be done by many other players. There is little that is unique about his game where you would say that if he was not on the field that it would be a noticeable loss. You can't say that about Hughes or Kyle Williams. Right now I would consider him a solid player. Does he have more upside? My sense is that there isn't much more to tap into. From a value standpoint relative to his draft position it is disappointing. Even you agreed with that judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 10 minutes ago, JohnC said: I'm not disparaging his role. Far from it. The point is that what he does can be done by many other players. There is little that is unique about his game where you would say that if he was not on the field that it would be a noticeable loss. You can't say that about Hughes or Kyle Williams. Right now I would consider him a solid player. Does he have more upside? My sense is that there isn't much more to tap into. From a value standpoint relative to his draft position it is disappointing. Even you agreed with that judgment. Our present version Chris Kelsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 On 1/13/2018 at 2:04 PM, McBean said: Good if true. Another Whaley bust. As much as I dislike Whaley I think that draft was all Rex Ryan. Tyrod Taylor being here is 100% Rex Ryan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 1 minute ago, H2o said: Our present version Chris Kelsay. That is an excellent comparison. A solid player with longevity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Lawson was not worth his position where he was drafted, add in he had bad shoulder it is really a baffling selection. I think Beane would move him if a better pass rusher was brought in during Fa. He is a fine 1st down 2 down DE, I would expect him to be sub out and Lorax subed in on third downs. Whaley was a very good pro personal guy. I dont think he ever meshed with what his coaches wanted in terms of college athletes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.Y. Orangeman Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I would hate to give up on this kid. Would be foolish given our depth on the DL unless we get a 2nd day pick (unlikely). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I still feel that it is too early to give up on Shaq.......he does do some good things on the field. His rookie contract makes him very managable. They need to get a guy who is a straight pass rush freak and platoon the two of them together. John H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndirish1978 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I don't get trading players on their rookie contracts who haven't played a full season. This is the definition of selling low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liverpoolkev Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 You might have to look at the coaching staff in particular D-line coach .....The players are doing more than fine ( for those trying to complain about Whaley ) everywhere else. Everyone on the RAMS was happy he was gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 On 1/13/2018 at 3:04 PM, McBean said: Good if true. Another Whaley bust. This one has Wrex written all over it. But before declaring bust, I’m more inclined to go with victim of scheme transition a la Darby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimer1960 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 6 hours ago, JohnC said: Excellent post and analysis. What you are basically saying is that he is your typical jag (just another guy). That's a fair assessment. However, when you consider that he was a first round pick and what he appears to be is your standard interchangeable player. At best he is a solid player, and at worse he is an inconsequential player who can be replaced by another inconsequential player without a trace of difference. This is the Chris Kelsey syndrome. Kelsey actually had a good NFL career and did what he was expected to do. He was good against the run and would get some sacks. Still, he was reviled here by “fans” who lamented that he wasn’t getting 10 sacks a year. Look around the league at left defensive ends. They are mostly good against the run and are try-hard pass rushers. This is EXACTLY why offensive RTs are valued lower than LTs. 5 hours ago, John from Hemet said: I still feel that it is too early to give up on Shaq.......he does do some good things on the field. His rookie contract makes him very managable. They need to get a guy who is a straight pass rush freak and platoon the two of them together. John H. +1 6 hours ago, Mat68 said: Lawson was not worth his position where he was drafted, add in he had bad shoulder it is really a baffling selection. I think Beane would move him if a better pass rusher was brought in during Fa. He is a fine 1st down 2 down DE, I would expect him to be sub out and Lorax subed in on third downs. Whaley was a very good pro personal guy. I dont think he ever meshed with what his coaches wanted in terms of college athletes. Do you think they will likely find a “fine 1st down2nd down DE” with the 4th round pick they might get in a fire sale for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 1 minute ago, OldTimer1960 said: This is the Chris Kelsey syndrome. Kelsey actually had a good NFL career and did what he was expected to do. He was good against the run and would get some sacks. Still, he was reviled here by “fans” who lamented that he wasn’t getting 10 sacks a year. Look around the league at left defensive ends. They are mostly good against the run and are try-hard pass rushers. This is EXACTLY why offensive RTs are valued lower than LTs. I agree with you that Chris Kelsey had a good career. He was a solid player who played within his talents. However, different defensive systems have different requirements. With the McDermott and even the Schwartz systems pressure is mostly applied by the linemen without much reliance on the blitz. I am not and have never been harshly critical of Lawson. But what I am not going to do is inflate his importance as a defensive player. In my view he is a responsible player as a DE but he is not close to being an impactful player. The difference for the defense when he played compared to when he didn't play was not evident to me. This is just my opinion but I don't see him as being a McDermott type of lineman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fadingpain Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 11 hours ago, PIZ said: March 3. Eagles, Bills to swap LeSean McCoy for Kiko Alonso Chris Wesseling Around the NFL Writer Published: March 3, 2015 at 06:45 p.m. Updated: March 4, 2015 at 05:10 p.m. I "broke" that story at this forum (got a thread up announcing the news seconds after it was formally announced) and the immediate overall reaction here was "Is this a joke? This can't be true? Is this true? I hate this deal!" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmalibu Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Who gives a crap that he was a first round pick!!! That pick is coming up on 3 drafts ago. Any moves need to be done to make the team better. Considering he is currently a starter on this team it would require a lot in return to make it worth while. I wouldnt want to take the chance on replacing him with a 3rd or 4th round pick. Not to mention even if traded he would carry way too much dead money to make it worth while. The only trade situation I see as worth while is for another current NFL player. It seems like too many are more caught up on the round he was drafted in 3 years ago than fielding at good team in 2018. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 17 hours ago, artmalibu said: Who gives a crap that he was a first round pick!!! That pick is coming up on 3 drafts ago. Any moves need to be done to make the team better. Considering he is currently a starter on this team it would require a lot in return to make it worth while. I wouldnt want to take the chance on replacing him with a 3rd or 4th round pick. Not to mention even if traded he would carry way too much dead money to make it worth while. The only trade situation I see as worth while is for another current NFL player. It seems like too many are more caught up on the round he was drafted in 3 years ago than fielding at good team in 2018. Art you’re confusing being a starter with being good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danc Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 19 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said: This is the Chris Kelsey syndrome. Kelsey actually had a good NFL career and did what he was expected to do. He was good against the run and would get some sacks. Still, he was reviled here by “fans” who lamented that he wasn’t getting 10 sacks a year. Look around the league at left defensive ends. They are mostly good against the run and are try-hard pass rushers. This is EXACTLY why offensive RTs are valued lower than LTs. +1 Do you think they will likely find a “fine 1st down2nd down DE” with the 4th round pick they might get in a fire sale for him? Even if you could get an identical player with a 4th, why, bother. Give him another year and see what happens. Our draft scouts will be busy enough evaluating talent for the picks we do have. Why divert scouting focus to find a replacement for a player we already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 48 minutes ago, joesixpack said: Art you’re confusing being a starter with being good. then what kind of trade value does he have ? He would be fine depth and cheap for another year or two, see if the light comes on. I still struggle in trading Ragland. he may not have been the ideal fit but he had/has upside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbitmic Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 I don't see any reason to create yet another hole and trade him at this point. If he happens to get beat out by Yarborough or Davis so be it, then they can trade him before the trade deadline and get a player to fill in this year or get something for him in the 2019 draft. Not every player is an instant gratification type player, maybe in his 2nd year in the McD/Frazier defense he'll improve quite a bit. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, but that's just me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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