The Tyrod Taylor Question

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Just showing regression. There are many areas in his individual QB play that regressed. And has to fix big time (dont see it) to stay away from an early QB next year

A "regression" that one should expect with more passing attempts.

 

 

 

See guys, I can stick up for Taylor too.

[Scott7975]

Nope his drop rate is seperete and accounted for 2.52%

 

Which was middle of the row. He was charted as having 11 balls dropped.

Then how does your stat work? If Taylor threw 62% completions, 20% uncatchable rounded what is the other 18% of his passes? Simply misses? If they are misses then they are either uncatchable or catchable but not caught. Edited August 24, 2017 by Scott7975

[aristocrat]

How many different ways can we argue about tyrod? Man I can't wait for this season to start

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[transplantbillsfan]

2016 Bad Pass Percentage

 

Quarterback Bad Pass Percentage measures the percentage of a quartebacks pass attempts that were considered to be poorly thrown (otherwise known as un-catchable) and leads to an incompleted pass.

 

TT 19.95%.

 

Worse than Kap

 

Better thab Wintson but second worse in the league

 

For comparison in 2015 it was 17.63%

 

Link? Who compiled these stats?

 

Proving that things like this are subjective, Cian Fahey says Taylor has the 9th highest accuracy % in 2016. And he also defines accuracy as "catchable."

 

That doesn't mean the stats you've provided are wrong or mine are right. You'd have to watch every single pass like those guys did to come to any conclusion on which one is more accurate. Still, that's interesting.

[grb]

A "regression" that one should expect with more passing attempts.

 

See guys, I can stick up for Taylor too.

 

Yeah. We're all impressed. Two points :

 

(1) We've never seen any trace of a drop-off in Taylor's performance stats with higher passing attempt numbers in games. I can say that with assurance because the subject has come up several times and been examined in detail.

 

(2) I would expect a "regression" from a second year starter dealing with a dumpster-fire of a receiving corps - an accurate description of all of last year. Unless of course you're talking about a one-game preseason "regression"? What are you talking about?

Edited August 24, 2017 by grb

[row_33]

 

Yeah. We're all impressed. Two points :

 

(1) We've never seen any trace of a drop-off in Taylor's performance stats with higher passing attempt numbers in games. I can say that with assurance because the subject has come up several times and been examined in detail.

 

(2) I would expect a "regression" from a second year starter dealing with a dumpster-fire of a receiving corps - an accurate description of all of last year. Unless of course you're talking about a one-game preseason "regression"? What are you talking about?

 

the excuses start piling up to the moon, why not just wait and see how he does

 

how can you insist he is a great QB, wait it out and hopefully he does well...

[3rdand12]

 

 

He knows:

 

@MatthewFairburn

Asked how much of the offense he's keeping under wraps in the preseason, Bills OC Rick Dennison said, "I'm not at liberty to say."

 

awesome I like Dennison already

 

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/ellipsis/

 

wtf is Greek ? ...

I thought EJ was a polarizing player in Buffalo...TT is at a higher level.

raising the roof

How many different ways can we argue about tyrod? Man I can't wait for this season to start Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Let me count the ways...

 

the excuses start piling up to the moon, why not just wait and see how he does

 

how can you insist he is a great QB, wait it out and hopefully he does well...

stay tuned. last years REC corp musta set records for " wingin' it Whaley"

Same Bat time Same Bat channel.

Go Bills!

[transplantbillsfan]

 

the excuses start piling up to the moon, why not just wait and see how he does

 

how can you insist he is a great QB, wait it out and hopefully he does well...

 

Did he ever say Taylor is a great QB?

 

Something seriously gets lost in translation for some people.

 

 

Somehow saying Taylor is "good" or even "pretty good" somehow equates to saying he's "Elite" and it causes idiotic posters to create a stupid cult name in order to make anyone who thinks Taylor's a competent NFL QB look like he actually thinks he's Elite.

 

So dumb.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

It's bad enough that this azzhat Paul Churchian said on D.C. Radio to start TT week 1 only then drop him.

 

He went on to say the Bills will be close to the 2nd worst team in the AFC.

Fantasy football related.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

A "regression" that one should expect with more passing attempts.

 

 

 

See guys, I can stick up for Taylor too.

 

....makes sense....."regression " before "progression" makes sense as well......once again, new coaches and new offense.....kid has been through many changes, but I'm still suspect of his ability to scan the entire field in <5 seconds to find guys open.......what is passed is in the past, including stats.....#10 offense achieved 7-9, so where to we have to get to to achieve 10-6 and break the playoff schneid, top 5?.....as they say in Mizzou, this is TT's "show me " year or probably the "make it or break it" one.....so be it...play ball and let's see....

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

 

....makes sense....."regression " before "progression" makes sense as well......once again, new coaches and new offense.....kid has been through many changes, but I'm still suspect of his ability to scan the entire field in <5 seconds to find guys open.......what is passed is in the past, including stats.....#10 offense achieved 7-9, so where to we have to get to to achieve 10-6 and break the playoff schneid, top 5?.....as they say in Mizzou, this is TT's "show me " year or probably the "make it or break it" one.....so be it...play ball and let's see....

 

 

a better defense may help as well?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

 

a better defense may help as well?

 

....most DEFINITELY bro.......how many times have you heard BB say, "we won all THREE phases of the game"......no way in hell am I solely attributing 7-9 to TT.....how many times has Brady been way off and the defense and/or special teams bailed him out? ...the Wrecks Experiment is probably in my top five all time OBD disasters and there have been some beauties in my 55 years of following the boyz......only an a-hole would HOPE this kid fails to fulfill his NFL dream and lead Buffalo forward....but those twisted minds are here, sadly................

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

 

....most DEFINITELY bro.......how many times have you heard BB say, "we won all THREE phases of the game"......no way in hell am I solely attributing 7-9 to TT.....how many times has Brady been way off and the defense and/or special teams bailed him out? ...the Wrecks Experiment is probably in my top five all time OBD disasters and there have been some beauties in my 55 years of following the boyz......only an a-hole would HOPE this kid fails to fulfill his NFL dream and lead Buffalo forward....but those twisted minds are here, sadly................

 

 

I mean I'm just saying it takes all phases to succeed, obviously. I wont deny the passing game was not up to snuff but add the defense and st in to the mix, 7-9.

 

that and the clowns who were coaching the team. too many factors to just put all the blame on one unit.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

 

I mean I'm just saying it takes all phases to succeed, obviously. I wont deny the passing game was not up to snuff but add the defense and st in to the mix, 7-9.

 

that and the clowns who were coaching the team. too many factors to just put all the blame on one unit.

...1000% correct and we are in total agreement.....2 out of 3 units clicking at a .667 pace will win ball games........only time .333 is successful is in MLB and NOT the NFL IMO......

[row_33]

Special teams hasn't been on the BIlls horizon of concern for a long time now.

 

Never mind that Belichick puts incredible high attention into his special teams, starting with a great kicker.

 

Fiddle dee deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

...1000% correct and we are in total agreement.....2 out of 3 units clicking at a .667 pace will win ball games........only time .333 is successful is in MLB and NOT the NFL IMO......

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

 

a better defense may help as well?

The team sure.

 

But Taylors game won't change because of it. IMO

[transplantbillsfan]

The team sure.

 

But Taylors game won't change because of it. IMO

 

Taylor's game or play won't change, you're right.

 

But perception of his game is almost certain to change pretty widely.

 

 

Wins and Losses do that for QBs. You see it all the time here. There are probably countless posts in this very thread where random posters are saying things like "I don't care about his stats, all I care about are Ws and Ls."

 

Just think about everyone's counter to anyone who points to the Dolphins game last year as a positive discussion point:

 

"But we still lost. He still couldn't do it."

 

Ws and Ls are team stats, but they're attributed (probably quite unfairly) mostly to QBs.

 

 

So, I think you're absolutely right. I actually think it's a pretty significant point. Personally, I don't think and never really thought Taylor was going to drastically change as a QB. I still don't think that. I think he'll be pretty careful with the football. I think there are always going to be WRs on the field he'll miss that he should have thrown to. I think there are always going to be times he should have stayed in the pocket rather than escaped the pocket and scrambled. But I think he'll always make enough positive plays with his legs to counterbalance some of those negatives. I think he'll probably use the middle of the football field this year mainly because of offensive design, but he's not going to suddenly become Tom Brady throwing over the middle.

 

Taylor is largely what he is I think. I think he could do what he does well a little more consistently and do what he doesn't do well a little less. But he's not really going to be a different QB.

 

But if this team wins a lot with him playing roughly like he did the last 2 years (2015 moreso than 2016) and he's throwing the ball a few more times per game than he did the last 2 years (which I expect), then I think Taylor will be seen in a whole new light, even though the likely actual reason this team would have improved so much will be because the D improved a lot.

 

The D is going to be the key, just like it so often is. But the QB will get too much credit, just like they so often do.

Edited August 24, 2017 by transplantbillsfan

[MAJBobby]

Then how does your stat work? If Taylor threw 62% completions, 20% uncatchable rounded what is the other 18% of his passes? Simply misses? If they are misses then they are either uncatchable or catchable but not caught.

Pass defensed throwaways Etc. They chart every throw he made

 

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/quarterback-incompletions-by-type/2016/

 

Link? Who compiled these stats?

 

Proving that things like this are subjective, Cian Fahey says Taylor has the 9th highest accuracy % in 2016. And he also defines accuracy as "catchable."

 

That doesn't mean the stats you've provided are wrong or mine are right. You'd have to watch every single pass like those guys did to come to any conclusion on which one is more accurate. Still, that's interesting.

And Cian also has gone out of his way to make TT look better than reality

[JM2009]

Special teams hasn't been on the BIlls horizon of concern for a long time now.

 

Never mind that Belichick puts incredible high attention into his special teams, starting with a great kicker.

 

Fiddle dee deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....

Didn't the Bills get a better kicker in the offseason?

[Buffalo716]

Didn't the Bills get a better kicker in the offseason?

Bobby April was such a good STs coach

[transplantbillsfan]

And Cian also has gone out of his way to make TT look better than reality

So this is the general narrative about Fahey. I'm genuinely curious as to why? You don't agree with him, so discredit him? Have you watched every single snap of every single QB from 2016 and years prior? He has. I think he's built up enough credibility at this point that if this were just a sham, he'd be an incredible con artist who should be working in Vegas instead.

 

I think he's written one article about Taylor in the two years he's played for Buffalo, and if you actually read what he says, he talks about shortcomings often. That website you linked I can just as easily dismiss based off of the fact that it says Buffalo receivers only dropped 11 passes. I watched all the games. I watched passes multiple times. I definitely saw more than 11 drops.

 

Funny, I called the discrepancy interesting, you dismiss One of them completely. Wildly interesting difference in mentality there

Edited August 25, 2017 by transplantbillsfan

[MAJBobby]

So this is the general narrative about Fahey. I'm genuinely curious as to why? You don't agree with him, so discredit him? Have you watched every single snap of every single QB from 2016 and years prior? He has. I think he's built up enough credibility at this point that if this were just a sham, he'd be an incredible con artist who should be working in Vegas instead.

 

I think he's written one article about Taylor in the two years he's played for Buffalo, and if you actually read what he says, he talks about shortcomings often. That website you linked I can just as easily dismiss based off of the fact that it says Buffalo receivers only dropped 11 passes. I watched all the games. I watched passes multiple times. I definitely saw more than 11 drops.

 

Funny, I called the discrepancy interesting, you dismiss One of them completely. Wildly interesting difference in mentality there

Its a general narrative because every article he writes is good about Taylor, also every tweet he makes about him are excuses. I dont dismiss him but i also take what he analyzes with a grain of salt.

 

Now the website i referenced doesnt analyze. Instead just charts the info for you to use wirh your film watch to analyze yourself. See how its different.

 

You can complain about the 11 drops and say there was more but this site compares every and charts every QB the same way and allows you to analyze the numbers.

 

If you say TT had more than 11 drops either every QB would have more then their drop number (if you are looking at them with all the same criteria you look at TT with) or you are watching TT with a different set of criteria.

[grb]

Its a general narrative because every article he writes is good about Taylor, also every tweet he makes about him are excuses. I dont dismiss him but i also take what he analyzes with a grain of salt.

 

Now the website i referenced doesnt analyze. Instead just charts the info for you to use wirh your film watch to analyze yourself. See how its different.

 

You can complain about the 11 drops and say there was more but this site compares every and charts every QB the same way and allows you to analyze the numbers.

 

If you say TT had more than 11 drops either every QB would have more then their drop number (if you are looking at them with all the same criteria you look at TT with) or you are watching TT with a different set of criteria.

 

Two points :

 

First, "every article he writes is good about Taylor" usually means said articles had positive things to say about the man. That's the red flag to anti-Taylor bulls. Personally, I've seen almost no articles on Taylor completely free of criticism. There was something posted on another site where the guy noted TT was sacked the most number of times in the NFL in 2016 (very bad), but that his yards-lost number was in the middle of the pack (less bad). How did the Anti-types respond? They raged, raged, raged against the inclusion of the yards-lost number. The very mention of that apparently was a conspiracy to hide the hideous truth. Also, the concept of "excuses" seems pretty elastic re Taylor. People seem to think it normal when Derek Carr's production improves with a better supporting cast. They think it normal when Kirk Cousins goes from mess to pretty good QB as the team around him gels. They think it normal when Matt Ryan's numbers increase or Andy Dalton's dip with the return / loss of prime targets. But Taylor plays a season with dumpster-fire receivers, and it's an "excuse" to think that's a factor in his "regression"?

 

Second, the website you referenced "doesn't analyze"? If you're referring to the uncatchable balls / dropped passes stats, I assure you they do. Ask twenty people to come up with those stats and you'll get twenty different numbers, even with all watching the same games. Not that there's anything wrong with that - and it's an interesting metric. I found it fascinating that Taylor's "uncatchable ball" rate in 2015 was just above Tom Brady's - suggesting maybe that stat isn't the end-all number on QB performance.

Edited August 25, 2017 by grb

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Bobby April was such a good STs coach

 

....April had FAR too much say and influence on the final 53.....majority of his ST'ers were one dimensional.........when called upon to provide depth at their natural positions, they couldn't do squat......OBD and Dickie had HELP WANTED trailers at Walmart and K-Mart.......hell I think they interviewed the 78 year old Walmart door greeter for a position.......

[Buffalo716]

....April had FAR too much say and influence on the final 53.....majority of his ST'ers were one dimensional.........when called upon to provide depth at their natural positions, they couldn't do squat......OBD and Dickie had HELP WANTED trailers at Walmart and K-Mart.......hell I think they interviewed the 78 year old Walmart door greeter for a position.......

Don't disagree there.

 

But there is a reason some players are core special teamers. They aren't good enough to be a CB or LB or WR.

 

Remember Justin Rodgers at CB?

[transplantbillsfan]

Its a general narrative because every article he writes is good about Taylor, also every tweet he makes about him are excuses. I dont dismiss him but i also take what he analyzes with a grain of salt.

 

Now the website i referenced doesnt analyze. Instead just charts the info for you to use wirh your film watch to analyze yourself. See how its different.

 

You can complain about the 11 drops and say there was more but this site compares every and charts every QB the same way and allows you to analyze the numbers.

 

If you say TT had more than 11 drops either every QB would have more then their drop number (if you are looking at them with all the same criteria you look at TT with) or you are watching TT with a different set of criteria.

 

Every article?

 

How many articles do you think he's written?

 

Here is the very last paragraph of one of those many (​the answer to the previous question is 2, btw) articles that supposedly exist about Taylor:

 

Expecting Taylor to develop much past who he is right now is unrealistic. He may have only started for one year, but he will be 27 years old before the start of this season. Taylor was forced to waste the early stages of his career as a backup because of his style of play. The narrative that he took major strides forward is tough to swallow because he was showing off the traits that are the foundation of his skill set right now back during his first preseason in the league. What should be comforting to Bills fans is that he doesn't need to develop any further to be a quality starting quarterback. He can be an above-average starter so long as his athleticism remains close to where it was in 2015.

Did that sound like something overly positive? Is that last line in any way really inaccurate, even for the biggest Taylor detractors?

 

 

And what the hell do you mean the website doesn't analyze it just charts and how is that any different from what Fahey does? Fahey analyzes and charts every single QB the exact same way that website does.

 

If you mean there's no subjectivity to that website, you're just plain wrong. You need to judge whether a ball is catchable or uncatchable. The website does exactly the same thing Fahey does and it has different results, which I think is interesting. I'm sure neither is 100% accurate and the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle, as it so typically does, like with this Tyrod Taylor debate.

Edited August 25, 2017 by transplantbillsfan

[MAJBobby]

 

Every article?

 

How many articles do you think he's written?

 

Here is the very last paragraph of one of those many (​the answer to the previous question is 2, btw) articles that supposedly exist about Taylor:

 

Expecting Taylor to develop much past who he is right now is unrealistic. He may have only started for one year, but he will be 27 years old before the start of this season. Taylor was forced to waste the early stages of his career as a backup because of his style of play. The narrative that he took major strides forward is tough to swallow because he was showing off the traits that are the foundation of his skill set right now back during his first preseason in the league. What should be comforting to Bills fans is that he doesn't need to develop any further to be a quality starting quarterback. He can be an above-average starter so long as his athleticism remains close to where it was in 2015.

 

Did that sound like something overly positive? Is that last line in any way really inaccurate, even for the biggest Taylor detractors?

 

 

And what the hell do you mean the website doesn't analyze it just charts and how is that any different from what Fahey does? Fahey analyzes and charts every single QB the exact same way that website does.

 

If you mean there's no subjectivity to that website, you're just plain wrong. You need to judge whether a ball is catchable or uncatchable. The website does exactly the same thing Fahey does and it has different results, which I think is interesting. I'm sure neither is 100% accurate and the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle, as it so typically does, like with this Tyrod Taylor debate.

Again Fahey analyzes the numbers and writes a narrative. The narrative HE SEES

 

The website i looked at and reference just posts RAW numbers. You can use them how you want. That is the difference.

 

I never dismissed Fahey he is good at what he does. However he is telling you HIS narrative. Instead of posting the raw numbers and allowing a person use them along with what they see on film and analyze and develop their own narrative.

 

If you cannot get that point i dont know how else to say it

[transplantbillsfan]

Again Fahey analyzes the numbers and writes a narrative. The narrative HE SEES

 

The website i looked at and reference just posts RAW numbers. You can use them how you want. That is the difference.

 

I never dismissed Fahey he is good at what he does. However he is telling you HIS narrative. Instead of posting the raw numbers and allowing a person use them along with what they see on film and analyze and develop their own narrative.

 

If you cannot get that point i dont know how else to say it

 

Fahey may write a narrative of his thoughts later, but his catalogue just posts the RAW numbers, as well. You can look at those numbers without actually reading anything he says about any of the QBs.

 

So, he does exactly what that website does and then also gives an anecdotal breakdown of and discussion of those QBs later. But there's really no difference in terms of how they come to the numbers. The numbers are just different.

[MAJBobby]

 

Fahey may write a narrative of his thoughts later, but his catalogue just posts the RAW numbers, as well. You can look at those numbers without actually reading anything he says about any of the QBs.

 

So, he does exactly what that website does and then also gives an anecdotal breakdown of and discussion of those QBs later. But there's really no difference in terms of how they come to the numbers. The numbers are just different.

Until he starts writing a narrative. Again either way to each his own. I have seen and heard enough of Tyrod Taylor excuses from him in writing, on WGR and twitter.

 

To each his own

[Mat68]

The second half preseason young qb across the league is very similar. The qb is the best player on the feild. One of the few guys who is making the team. Preseason game 3 tells you the only thing you need to know in preseason. If Taylor plays poor Saturday night I would give peterman the 2nd half and 1 or 2 series with the ones. You can send a message but also avoid a full qb controversey.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Mat68

[mead107]

19-0 baby

[26CornerBlitz]

@BigTimeFootball

Football Outsiders: accept that Tyrod is a good quarterback https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2017/8/25/16195918/football-outsiders-tyrod-taylor-is-a-good-quarterback-dvoa-eli-manning-joe-flacco-russell-wilson

via @BuffRumblings

 

The biggest question for the past two offseasons - even more important than the head coach - has been “Is Tyrod Taylor a franchise quarterback?” The Buffalo Bills fan base and apparently the decision makers inside the building have ebbed and flowed on the question, but Football Outsiders and their analytics haven’t.

 

“Look, I never would have expected Tyrod Taylor to be as good as he’s been the last two years,” says Aaron Schatz, Head of Football Outsiders. “But now he’s been that good, can we all accept it? He was top 10 in DVOA in 2015, and last year, without Sammy Watkins for most of the year, he was 19th, which is passable.”

 

Haterade in 5,4,3,2,1

[Foxx]

Again Fahey analyzes the numbers and writes a narrative. The narrative HE SEES

 

The website i looked at and reference just posts RAW numbers. You can use them how you want. That is the difference.

 

I never dismissed Fahey he is good at what he does. However he is telling you HIS narrative. Instead of posting the raw numbers and allowing a person use them along with what they see on film and analyze and develop their own narrative.

 

If you cannot get that point i dont know how else to say it

 

 

 

Fahey may write a narrative of his thoughts later, but his catalogue just posts the RAW numbers, as well. You can look at those numbers without actually reading anything he says about any of the QBs.

 

So, he does exactly what that website does and then also gives an anecdotal breakdown of and discussion of those QBs later. But there's really no difference in terms of how they come to the numbers. The numbers are just different.

two different perspectives.

 

one thinks for themselves and the other relies on another to do the thinking for them.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

 

 

two different perspectives.

 

one thinks for themselves and the other relies on another to do the thinking for them.

 

 

glad you could stop by Foxx. too bad your thread got locked up, it was a real doozy.

[transplantbillsfan]

 

 

two different perspectives.

 

one thinks for themselves and the other relies on another to do the thinking for them.

 

Not a clue why you're being such a belittling weenie here Foxx. Fahey's comments on Taylor are completely separate from his charts.

 

Completely separate.

 

Not a clue how the hell what you say here applies in any way.

 

 

So grumpy this offseason.