Offensive line rankings

[BuffaloHokie13]

TBH

 

I think that these rankings are offensive

 

Gotta say, that's a great line.

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

The QB gets hit because he hangs on to the ball for 5 seconds. The line was excellent at run blocking and average in pass blocking. They played well despite injuries

...and there job is made harder by having to hold blocks longer as he scrambles as well as wondering where "the hell is he THIS time"............

[Haplo848]

20. Buffalo Bills

Overall grade: C

Pass blocking: D+

Run blocking: A-

Stability/consistency: D-

This was the most hit-miss blocking wall in the league last year. The Bills placed first in pocket time on vertical passes (2.9 seconds), but had the worst dropback hit rate (24.6 percent). They were tied for the worst screen pass blocking grade (F), yet had the fifth highest GBR (42.1 percent). This maddening inconsistency is why the Bills had a D-minus grade in stability/consistency despite returning four starters. Fantasy owners can probably rely on the run blocking for LeSean McCoy, but otherwise should consider this blocking wall untrustworthy.

 

http://insider.espn.com/fantasy/football/insider/story/_/id/19690153/fantasy-football-offensive-line-rankings-all-32-nfl-teams-impact-players-production

 

 

Yeah, this is a pretty horrid summary. When Tyrod has all the time in the world and doesn't get rid of the ball, that's not the line's fault. When Tyrod's first option isn't open so he panics and runs out of a perfect pocket straight into a D-linemen that's there for containment, specifically because he does that, that also isn't the line's fault. If we had a pocket passer instead of a scrambler, the pass blocking grade would probably be better. Sometimes stats don't tell the whole story. This is a case where stats don't tell much of a story, period, and so this piece is kinda trash.

[Bills757]

 

Yeah, this is a pretty horrid summary. When Tyrod has all the time in the world and doesn't get rid of the ball, that's not the line's fault. When Tyrod's first option isn't open so he panics and runs out of a perfect pocket straight into a D-linemen that's there for containment, specifically because he does that, that also isn't the line's fault. If we had a pocket passer instead of a scrambler, the pass blocking grade would probably be better. Sometimes stats don't tell the whole story. This is a case where stats don't tell much of a story, period, and so this piece is kinda trash.

If the Bills had a pocket passer, he'd be on injured reserve. Like I said, all it takes is for one Olineman to miss a block and all hell breaks loose. The statue at RT last year was worse than bad.

 

It's funny. So many on this board complain and complain about Taylor hanging onto the ball unnecessarily (which I'm sure he has done over the past two years) but NONE of these people are willing to acknowledge the fact he's turned chicken **** into chicken soup so many other times....times when a traditional pocket passer would've been planted into the turf, Taylor side stepped and picked up big yardage or hit a receiver crossing over the middle. That's the thing for me, for the haters all they can say is he sucks.....for most of the open-minded semi-supportive Taylor fans, they acknowledge Taylor has flaws but also what he does well.

 

For me, this is the year for Taylor to make the step he needs to make in order to be considered a long term answer. With Dennison in the fold, McDermott at the helm and two years of starting experience, it's sink or swim time for TT (barring tons of injuries).

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Gotta say, that's a great line.

 

🍺

Judging O lines is a difficult thing to do imo.

 

So many subjective things to evaluate.

[Rocky Landing]

I respectfully disagree. It is just SO much easier for offensive linemen to run block than pass block, which is of course more important these days. Right Tackle means much more than it used to and the Bills had huge problems there last season.

Also, I disagree with those who blame the Bills OL problems on Tyrod. Imo he buys time and makes the OL look better than it is.

The current OL is not as bad as it was in the Levy/Jauron days. Those lines had some of the very worst players I have ever seen. Still, this line needs work in my opinion. I would rate it to be pretty close to average.

I certainly wouldn't just place blame on Tyrod for the O-line issues-- that would be overly simplistic. But, would you not agree that some QBs are harder to protect than others? And would Tyrod not be one of those QBs?

 

For the record, I'm not a Tyrod hater. There seem to be a lot of assumptions of an "agenda" on this site lately, in both directions, for anybody who compliments, or criticizes Taylor...

 

There's a lot to admire in Tyrod, his mobility being one of those things. And, it's fun as hell to watch. But. I feel like that often translates into an unstable pocket that he stretches to the limit before it is really necessary, and I wish he would get that under control. I believe that if he could not drop so far back in his initial steps, and step forward into the pocket as he was reading the field, he could make a major improvement in his game, and change a lot of minds about his status as merely a "bridge quarterback," (which seems to have become an absolute given on this site).

 

I also question just how much more difficult it is to pass protect vs. run protect. There are O-lines (the Packers', and Browns', for example) that excel at pass protection, and struggle in run protection. That assessment is from PFF-- I don't get ESPN Insider, as was referenced in this thread. (That same PFF analysis, BTW, had us ranked very close between pass, and run protection.)

[Rocky Landing]

If the Bills had a pocket passer, he'd be on injured reserve. Like I said, all it takes is for one Olineman to miss a block and all hell breaks loose. The statue at RT last year was worse than bad.

 

It's funny. So many on this board complain and complain about Taylor hanging onto the ball unnecessarily (which I'm sure he has done over the past two years) but NONE of these people are willing to acknowledge the fact he's turned chicken **** into chicken soup so many other times....times when a traditional pocket passer would've been planted into the turf, Taylor side stepped and picked up big yardage or hit a receiver crossing over the middle. That's the thing for me, for the haters all they can say is he sucks.....for most of the open-minded semi-supportive Taylor fans, they acknowledge Taylor has flaws but also what he does well.

 

For me, this is the year for Taylor to make the step he needs to make in order to be considered a long term answer. With Dennison in the fold, McDermott at the helm and two years of starting experience, it's sink or swim time for TT (barring tons of injuries).

I absolutely agree that Tyrod's mobility has saved more than a few plays, and often in spectacular fashion. However, I do also believe that some of those plays were saved from himself.

 

I also disagree with your exaggerated view of Mills. He certainly started off the season terrible, no doubt. But, what I saw was someone that improved (albeit gradually) throughout the season. I know that's not a popular opinion. But, I wouldn't be at all surprised, or disappointed, if he started the '17 season.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Rocky Landing

[Blokestradamus]

Judging O lines is a difficult thing to do imo.

 

So many subjective things to evaluate.

 

I think the biggest thing to consider (and the hardest to quantify) isn't the individual parts but the cohesion of the group.

 

The amount of reps needed so each of the 5 guys knows where to be and the pace that everyone else will hit their landmarks, especially on the Pin & Pull plays, seems like an underrated factor. The fact that the unit barely missed a beat in replacing both Glenn and Wood during the year speaks to the coaching we had.

[NoSaint]

If the Bills had a pocket passer, he'd be on injured reserve. Like I said, all it takes is for one Olineman to miss a block and all hell breaks loose. The statue at RT last year was worse than bad.

 

It's funny. So many on this board complain and complain about Taylor hanging onto the ball unnecessarily (which I'm sure he has done over the past two years) but NONE of these people are willing to acknowledge the fact he's turned chicken **** into chicken soup so many other times....times when a traditional pocket passer would've been planted into the turf, Taylor side stepped and picked up big yardage or hit a receiver crossing over the middle. That's the thing for me, for the haters all they can say is he sucks.....for most of the open-minded semi-supportive Taylor fans, they acknowledge Taylor has flaws but also what he does well.

 

For me, this is the year for Taylor to make the step he needs to make in order to be considered a long term answer. With Dennison in the fold, McDermott at the helm and two years of starting experience, it's sink or swim time for TT (barring tons of injuries).

I'll say that his mobility is an asset

 

But I'll also note that many a pocket passer can move around and manipulate the pocket without scrambling

 

And that when you hold the ball longer than anyone else that's also an indictment on you creating pressure situations that you then have to escape.

 

It's easy for either side to argue how this feels but would be great if a pro charted up something about his pocket mobility and pressure on him compared to a handful of others for a benchmark. It's not that great avoiding 5 high pressure sacks if you take 5 extra by not getting the ball on time..... and both sides would argue for seeing what they wanted to see

 

I think the biggest thing to consider (and the hardest to quantify) isn't the individual parts but the cohesion of the group.

 

The amount of reps needed so each of the 5 guys knows where to be and the pace that everyone else will hit their landmarks, especially on the Pin & Pull plays, seems like an underrated factor. The fact that the unit barely missed a beat in replacing both Glenn and Wood during the year speaks to the coaching we had.

I've been on record for about a decade saying Kroger is one of the best position coaches out there. The guy has great results with a ton of players

[Bill from NYC]

improvement in his game, and change a lot of minds about his status as merely a "bridge quarterback," (which seems to have become an absolute given on this site).

 

I also question just how much more difficult it is to pass protect vs. run protect. There are O-lines (the Packers', and Browns', for example) that excel at pass protection, and struggle in run protection. That assessment is from PFF-- I don't get ESPN Insider, as was referenced in this thread. (That same PFF analysis, BTW, had us ranked very close between pass, and run protection.)

NFL Offensive Linemen are 300+ lb. genetic mutants. They know the snap count and get to fire out on running plays. When they pull they have even more of a running start. On pass plays, they are often going backwards and they are getting hit in lieu of being the aggressors.

 

I think that this is why a player like Mike Williams looked so good in college. As I recall, he might have set a combine record for the bench press. At Texas, he would flatten his opponents on runs. In the pros, he lacked agility and balance and would at times even get pushed to the ground on some passing downs.

 

Again, I don't think that OL sucks. I do however think that we overrate our center and right guard. I am glad we drafted the kid from Temple.

 

Jmo.

[GunnerBill]

Again, I don't think that OL sucks. I do however think that we overrate our center and right guard. I am glad we drafted the kid from Temple.

 

Jmo.

Eric Wood has been up and down in his career it is true and he was awful in Marrone's 2nd year but he actually played pretty well in the Roman / Kromer scheme. I think he is a decent technician but he isn't going to flatten his man straight up.

 

Miller I am a fan of. I thought he was better than many here thought his rookie year, and he was a solid starting guard in 2016. He is definitely better in the run game than in pass pro but his pass protection faults are more concerntration and technique on specific plays rather than being generally sub par.

 

I am also glad we drafted Dawkins... because A - RT has been the weak spot and in the pass game at times a liability. B - with Kujo gone I worry about depth behind Glenn at the most important position. Dawkins played LT in college and has been there so far in OTAs etc.

 

EDIT: for what it is worth and I am not an absolute believer in PFF but I think their end of season O-line rankings pretty much matched what I saw on tape not just from the Bills but around the league. It had the Bills 11th - that felt instinctively about right - and the teams it had ahead of them are broadly the ones I would have had (though one might quibble a bit with the order). For me based on 2016 there is a definite top 8:

 

Dallas, Oakland, Tennessee, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Washington, Baltimore, Atlanta.

 

After that I think you could put the Bills anywhere from 9 to about 13/14. PFF additionally had New England and Philadelphia above them I actually have the Bills slightly ahead of those two, but behind New Orleans (Armstead missing time hurt their PFF grade) and right about level with the Bengals who similarly have (or had) an outstanding LT and LG and then solid but not special C and RG and a problem at RT.

Edited June 24, 2017 by GunnerBill

[Kirby Jackson]

Eric Wood has been up and down in his career it is true and he was awful in Marrone's 2nd year but he actually played pretty well in the Roman / Kromer scheme. I think he is a decent technician but he isn't going to flatten his man straight up.

 

Miller I am a fan of. I thought he was better than many here thought his rookie year, and he was a solid starting guard in 2016. He is definitely better in the run game than in pass pro but his pass protection faults are more concerntration and technique on specific plays rather than being generally sub par.

 

I am also glad we drafted Dawkins... because A - RT has been the weak spot and in the pass game at times a liability. B - with Kujo gone I worry about depth behind Glenn at the most important position. Dawkins played LT in college and has been there so far in OTAs etc.

 

EDIT: for what it is worth and I am not an absolute believer in PFF but I think their end of season O-line rankings pretty much matched what I saw on tape not just from the Bills but around the league. It had the Bills 11th - that felt instinctively about right - and the teams it had ahead of them are broadly the ones I would have had (though one might quibble a bit with the order). For me based on 2016 there is a definite top 8:

 

Dallas, Oakland, Tennessee, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Washington, Baltimore, Atlanta.

 

After that I think you could put the Bills anywhere from 9 to about 13/14. PFF additionally had New England and Philadelphia above them I actually have the Bills slightly ahead of those two, but behind New Orleans (Armstead missing time hurt their PFF grade) and right about level with the Bengals who similarly have (or had) an outstanding LT and LG and then solid but not special C and RG and a problem at RT.

New Orleans OL isn't good. Peat has been a massive disappointment and Armstead is hurt. Strief bounced back in 2016 but was awful in 2015. I'd have them closer to 20 than 10.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

....Cowher said it best...."the OL is THE most important unit on the football field.....the UNIT breaks down and everything else fails".....Holmgren referred to Shell & Upshaw as "legendary" and then added Hutch & Jones to the same "legendary" category......these guys become a cohesive UNiT based on familiarity.....

[JM2009]

....Cowher said it best...."the OL is THE most important unit on the football field.....the UNIT breaks down and everything else fails".....Holmgren referred to Shell & Upshaw as "legendary" and then added Hutch & Jones to the same "legendary" category......these guys become a cohesive UNiT based on familiarity.....

Very true.

[hondo in seattle]

I absolutely agree that Tyrod's mobility has saved more than a few plays, and often in spectacular fashion. However, I do also believe that some of those plays were saved from himself.

 

I also disagree with your exaggerated view of Mills. He certainly started off the season terrible, no doubt. But, what I saw was someone that improved (albeit gradually) throughout the season. I know that's not a popular opinion. But, I wouldn't be at all surprised, or disappointed, if he started the '17 season.

 

I've got to admit that I'm one of the guys piling on Mills. I thought he was horrendous in pass pro last season. And if he got better as the season went on, it was lost on me.

 

But I have to pause before damning the guy when I hear his offensive line mates praise him the way they do. I'm not holding my breath but I am hoping to see and new & improved Mills this year.

[GunnerBill]

New Orleans OL isn't good. Peat has been a massive disappointment and Armstead is hurt. Strief bounced back in 2016 but was awful in 2015. I'd have them closer to 20 than 10.

As I said my ranking of them around the top 10 is based on when everyone is healthy. Armstead is a very good left tackle I think Peat is serviceable inside (though remains a problem when he had to flip to tackle when Armstead was hurt) Strief had a really good year and I think Max Unger is an outstanding center. I personally believe the Unger for Graham trade was the moment the Seahawks relinquished any hope of a dynasty.

 

Theh might not have depth, but when everyone is healthy I think that line is good and I give it the edge over others because there is no obvious weak link.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Very true.

 

....I'd venture to say in my conventional wis-DUMB that if the OL continues its development, Dennison designs an offense with rollouts and screens so the OL knows TT's whereabouts as well as expected time to hold blocks versus his improvisational scrambling along with McD returning the defense AT LEAST to its pre-Wrecks dominance, 2017 could be a very interesting year....stay tuned........

[Rocky Landing]

 

I've got to admit that I'm one of the guys piling on Mills. I thought he was horrendous in pass pro last season. And if he got better as the season went on, it was lost on me.

 

But I have to pause before damning the guy when I hear his offensive line mates praise him the way they do. I'm not holding my breath but I am hoping to see and new & improved Mills this year.

One point I'd like to make in considering Mills' situation last year is how good the other side of our line was. Richie is really, really good, and Cordy has the wingspan of a 747. And Wood is solid, as well. Miller is solid, and smart, imo, but not at the level of Richie. It wasn't hard for defenses to know which side of the line to attack on a blitz. Mills faced the lion's share of pressure, and that did not relent for 16 games.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Rocky Landing

[26CornerBlitz]

PFF Rankings: https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-line-units-heading-into-the-2017-season/

 

10. Buffalo Bills

After the right tackle position in Buffalo had been a wasteland the past few seasons, they addressed it in a big way in Temple tackle Dion Dawkins in the second round of the draft this past April. Every other position along the line was solid a season ago, so the rookie right tackle will likely make or break this line’s ranking.

[Kirby Jackson]

PFF Rankings: https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-line-units-heading-into-the-2017-season/

 

Feels a little more accurate

[wilcoam]

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-line-units-heading-into-the-2017-season/

That's a great rating, 10th, and exactly where I thought we'd be, not 20th, which is ridiculous
Plus for those on the old BBMB, and here, who claim Eric had an off year PFF didn't single him out as such
IMO the O-line is a huge strength of this present team
As a unit they likely rank higher than any other except perhaps the RB's because of LM

jc

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

PFF Rankings: https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-line-units-heading-into-the-2017-season/

 

...very fair assessment.....and they re-signed Mills so they must see something there..........

[26CornerBlitz]

...very fair assessment.....and they re-signed Mills so they must see something there..........

 

A bad backup plan in the event Dawkins can't beat him out. Look out Tyrod!!!

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

A bad backup plan in the event Dawkins can't beat him out. Look out Tyrod!!!

...Kevlar time......

[JohnBonhamRocks]

Having trouble locating - anyone have how much time the line gave Taylor to throw? I realize he affects this by choosing to throw or not throw, just looking for some statistics.

 

The Dawkins pick seems like a real smart one at this point. Glenn has injury history. Incognito is no spring chicken. Mills has little business being a starter. Most definitely agree with the prior Cowher quote that investing in the OL is majorly important, and tend to have that view in general - that a team should build from the trenches on both sides of the ball. Glad we added to our OL depth.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Having trouble locating - anyone have how much time the line gave Taylor to throw? I realize he affects this by choosing to throw or not throw, just looking for some statistics.

 

a slight edit may be needed

 

how much time the line gave Taylor to throw before he decided to run/scramble

[machine gun kelly]

That ranking is too low. The Bills are absolutely a top 10 OL and potentially top 5. The yards before contact numbers say it all.

Agreed. If TT would get rid of the ball in under 3 seconds like every decent QB, the line would look like champs in pass protection. I'm fair balanced as I see a lot TT does well, but he has to improve in seeing his targets faster.

[Kirby Jackson]

Agreed. If TT would get rid of the ball in under 3 seconds like every decent QB, the line would look like champs in pass protection. I'm fair balanced as I see a lot TT does well, but he has to improve in seeing his targets faster.

The flip side of it is he makes more rushers miss than any QB in the league. That balances it out. I agree that he needs to get it out quicker but his elusiveness offsets some of it. It's like anything with TT, it's unconventional. He holds the ball longer than anyone but extends plays longer than anyone. The weird thing is that he probably takes some sacks that no other player would and avoids some sacks where every other player would be sacked.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Agreed. If TT would get rid of the ball in under 3 seconds like every decent QB, the line would look like champs in pass protection. I'm fair balanced as I see a lot TT does well, but he has to improve in seeing his targets faster.

Exactly. If he throws the ball with anticipation he would be releasing the ball faster.

 

 

 

The flip side of it is he makes more rushers miss than any QB in the league. That balances it out. I agree that he needs to get it out quicker but his elusiveness offsets some of it. It's like anything with TT, it's unconventional. He holds the ball longer than anyone but extends plays longer than anyone. The weird thing is that he probably takes some sacks that no other player would and avoids some sacks where every other player would be sacked.

Most Evasive puts a poor spotlight on the O Line as being bad.

3 sacks a game imo is too many

[Kirby Jackson]

Exactly. If he throws the ball with anticipation he would be releasing the ball faster.

 

 

 

Most Evasive puts a poor spotlight on the O Line as being bad.

 

3 sacks a game imo is too many

It's not a one way street though. When a guy runs free and he spins away he's doing the OL a favor. When he stands there for 4 seconds, he's doing the OL a disservice. It's both, we need to take the good with the bad. 3 sacks a game is too many and we really need to dig into how many are TT, how many are OL, and how many did he save? That combination will tell the story. Edited June 29, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

He'd also be doing the O Line a bigger favor by releasing the ball quicker which reduces the amount of time they have to stay tangled up with the D Line pushing them back.

 

He needs to pass the ball to moving targets in the short game. Waiting for them to stop and turn or turn and stop takes up valuable time.

[Kirby Jackson]

He'd also be doing the O Line a bigger favor by releasing the ball quicker which reduces the amount of time they have to stay tangled up with the D Line pushing them back.

 

He needs to pass the ball to moving targets in the short game. Waiting for them to stop and turn or turn and stop takes up valuable time.

I agree with the 2nd part wholeheartedly.

 

I don't understand the 1st part though. Why should we ONLY look at the GOOD or ONLY look at the BAD? Why should we make judgements with a part of the story?

 

I guess here is the way that I look at it. If the Bills scored last year on 3 plays that he kept alive where 90% of other QBs didn't I can live with some sacks that others wouldn't have taken. Big Ben has made a career out of that. I'm not saying that in the perfect world he never gets sacked but that's not how it works. He's a different player and shouldn't be judged on a surface level. By the same token if Christian Hackenberg holds the ball as long as Tyrod Taylor it is a disaster. If Marcus Mariota does the same thing, he can potentially make a game changing play. It isn't one or the other, it's both when it comes to TT. He needs to release the ball sooner but not at the expense of his playmaking ability.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

I don't understand the 1st part though. Why should we ONLY look at the GOOD or ONLY look at the BAD?

I was referring to the physical toll on the body. -- The sooner the ball is passed the sooner the O Line gets to release from blocking.

 

How many injuries are there after the defense turns its back on the QB and pursues the ball down field? More or less. I'm guessing less.

[Webster Guy]

Offensive line rankings should fall roughly in line with total offensive points scored. They go hand in hand.

 

In our case we ranked 10th and I'd say thats a fair ranking. Roman and Lynn have set a good foundation here for running the ball, now its up to Dennison to get Tyrod an offense that keeps him upright and moving dem chains!

[Matt_In_NH]

Looking at things like hit percentage is not a good way to evaluate an OL because it larger depends on the QB. They need to evaluate each OL independently.

Offensive line rankings should fall roughly in line with total offensive points scored. They go hand in hand.

In our case we ranked 10th and I'd say thats a fair ranking. Roman and Lynn have set a good foundation here for running the ball, now its up to Dennison to get Tyrod an offense that keeps him upright and moving dem chains!

 

Disagree, the Colts used to lead the league in points but have a terrible OL, The great QB's can cover up for a weak OL.

[Scott7975]

People overrated this online because they hate Tyrod. They were terrible at pass protection. Half the time they couldn't even form a pocket and just collapsed.

[JM2009]

People overrated this online because they hate Tyrod. They were terrible at pass protection. Half the time they couldn't even form a pocket and just collapsed.

It's a top 15 line, not top 5.

[Scott7975]

It's a top 15 line, not top 5.

I agree. Maybe top 5 in run block but nowhere near it pass blocking.

[xRUSHx]

Indeed. They are asked to protect too big of a space for too long.

Right on man

People overrated this online because they hate Tyrod. They were terrible at pass protection. Half the time they couldn't even form a pocket and just collapsed.

That's not true in my opinion, if the QB gets more then 5 seconds to do something they did the job. Tyrod gets talked about in it because the line gave the time but Tyrod couldn't do anything with it because he would rather run around. It's why teams make him be a QB, give him all day in the pocket and he goes 3 and out, make him leave the protected pocket and he can make some things happen.

[Kirby Jackson]

I was referring to the physical toll on the body. -- The sooner the ball is passed the sooner the O Line gets to release from blocking.

 

How many injuries are there after the defense turns its back on the QB and pursues the ball down field? More or less. I'm guessing less.

That's certainly fair. The longer they are blocking the more they get beat up.