That's No Moon Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 If he hadn't been caught cheating on multiple occasions this would be a slam dunk answer, great coach. However, since that has happened multiple times in multiple areas of the game across spans of many years it requires that the rest of his record be called into question. There are plenty of other, well discussed, situation where New England chicanery has been suspected yet unproven. If the coach had maintained a sterling record it would sound like sour grapes to mention them. I liken this to our older fans griping about Don Shula's participation on the competition committee and his influence on officials. Don Shula has an impeccable record with multiple teams over decades. He was great. You can dislike him but he was great. Belichick on the other hand, has been caught actually doing the things people have suspected him of. There is no accomplishment on his record which you can't call into question as a result. He's not the only person in sports this has happened to and he won't be the last. We said goodbye to one of them today in Alex Rodriguez. The man hit almost 700 home runs and will go into retirement with barely a ripple of attention because he got caught cheating multiple times. I personally believe the Cal Ripken was dirty as hell during his games played streak but he was never caught and nothing will be proven so I will accede to his greatness. Shula may have been a slimeball but Belichick is proven to be one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 I have no doubt Belicheck's reputation will be somewhat tainted by the spy gate incident, but since that time they continue to win. There has never been any evidence Belicheck knew anything about the deflate thing. That stayed in the headlines because of Brady's refusal to really cooperate, then became a power struggle npbetween the NFL and the NFLPA. It's very hard to believe some people can't acknowledge he is a great coach. I don't think he is a great guy and can't stand him, but I'm honest enough with myself to know I just hate getting my team's butt kicked 25 out of 28 times over 14 years, and one of our wins they didn't even care about and pulled out their starters. All of you are entitled to your opinions, but it's hard to believe people don't even think he is a good coach. I can tell you 31 other teams would take him as their coach. What people will really hate is he will go into the HOF five years after he retires. That will be one speech I skip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 I have no doubt Belicheck's reputation will be somewhat tainted by the spy gate incident, but since that time they continue to win. There has never been any evidence Belicheck knew anything about the deflate thing. That stayed in the headlines because of Brady's refusal to really cooperate, then became a power struggle npbetween the NFL and the NFLPA. It's very hard to believe some people can't acknowledge he is a great coach. I don't think he is a great guy and can't stand him, but I'm honest enough with myself to know I just hate getting my team's butt kicked 25 out of 28 times over 14 years, and one of our wins they didn't even care about and pulled out their starters. All of you are entitled to your opinions, but it's hard to believe people don't even think he is a good coach. I can tell you 31 other teams would take him as their coach. What people will really hate is he will go into the HOF five years after he retires. That will be one speech I skip. Based on his pressers he will likely skip his HOF speech too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 That's funny. "We're moving onto Cincinatti" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Neither luck or great it's pure CHEATING is how he wins. Still think they have a way to hack into radio systems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Is Bellicheat a great coach ? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) I didn't see "Cheater" as an option? His "legacy" will forever be tarnished by what ifs and speculation. No one knows how much was him or how much was cheating and or luck. Edited August 15, 2016 by drinkTHEkoolaid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) Lucky? Was Paul Brown lucky to have Otto Graham as his QB? Was Vince Lombardi lucky to have Bart Starr as his QB? Was Tom Landry lucky to have Roger Staubach as his QB? Was Chuck Knoll lucky to have Terry Staubach as his QB? Was Bill Walsh lucky ot have Joe Montana as his QB? Edited August 15, 2016 by Pneumonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba Gump Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 I didn't see "Cheater" as an option? His "legacy" will forever be tarnished by what ifs and speculation. No one knows how much was him or how much was cheating and or luck. This is where I am with regards to BB. I can't honestly answer this question because he was caught cheating. No one knows what he may have gotten away with in other years. I find it really hard to believe that he only cheated once. Maybe he is only considered great because of cheating he has gotten away with. We'll never really know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Both. Bills fans lament as he got us in a Super Bowl, then jammed us up for almost 2 decades in our division. Tommy will hit the wall, then even things out a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Was Chuck Knoll lucky to have Terry Staubach as his QB? Bradshaw* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lofton80 Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) He is the best ever and unfortunately in our division. Edited August 15, 2016 by Lofton80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Lucky and great are not mutually exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Smart and sneaky with no remorse for cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Lucky? Was Paul Brown lucky to have Otto Graham as his QB? Was Vince Lombardi lucky to have Bart Starr as his QB? Was Tom Landry lucky to have Roger Staubach as his QB? Was Chuck Knoll lucky to have Terry Staubach as his QB? Was Bill Walsh lucky ot have Joe Montana as his QB? The answer to all those are yes. And if waited until the 6th round to draft your guy, you are insanely lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Is Bellicheat a great coach or is he a lucky coach because his team stumbled upon the best QB ever selected in the 6th round? Great. Dude is brilliant and works as hard as anyone. The best sixth round QB of all time sure is lucky he wasn't drafted by the Bills or Browns or some other **** show team. That SB was on Jim Kelly. Had he fed Thurman the ENTIRE game, it would have been a win. ZERO doubt about that. Explain his genius stints in CLE and NE pre-brady. Go on, I'll wait. Come on. He took over the rotting corpse of those Browns teams of the late 80s and was on the way to a rebuild when Modell nuked the entire franchise. Not to mention, 11-5 with Matt Cassell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) Not to mention, 11-5 with Matt Cassell. QBs look great when the OC can radio which receivers are open during the play. Edited August 15, 2016 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 (edited) Is Bellicheat a great coach or is he a lucky coach because his team stumbled upon the best QB ever selected in the 6th round? Its foolish to say he's lucky and here is why: That argument would be applicable to every coach in every sport in history. Teams don't win Championships with marginal players and just a great coach. Winning in the NFL isn't going to happen without great players...period. So to say he is only "Lucky" because he had Brady is stupid unless you are prepared to say every coach was "lucky" to have so and so (Doesn't always have to be a QB). This Gibbs myth being played out here for instance...those Redskins teams were DEEP with tons of talent and HOF players...to just disregard that because you don't think the QB was one of best ever is comical at best. There are 22 starters on both sides of the ball, the overall talent of the team isn't determined by the ranking of just one player, the QB. Coaches take those collection of players, some bad, some solid, some great and in some cases there are some that are Elite or historically great...and they put them into position to win against other teams with similar makeups. Once the playoffs begin, you are facing other talented players and teams fighting for the same prize. No matter how good your players are, you still need the right game plan, coaching, preparation, etc to win as OFTEN and CONSISTENTLY as the Patriots do..and its so difficult to do in the NFL where injuries and free agency change the makeup of teams year after year that their era of dominance is rare in terms of success and length of time. A coach can NOT under ANY circumstance be successful for sustained periods of time without a good team or better. His teams in Cleveland were terrible and bottom third of the league. NO COACH would have succeeded with that roster, so to act like his coaching resume is poor because of that is just trying to find a reason to discredit him. Patriots turn their roster nearly as much, if not more than, any team in the NFL...including key players. They change their entire game plan every single year, even week to week, to match the state of the roster and its opponents. And they do it with a HIGH level of success. They make what seem like marginal players or finished players before they come to NE into highly productive players, even Pro Bowlers on a regular basis. Funniest thing about some of these posters in this thread arguing he is lucky to have Brady and he's not a good coach...many are the same posters who say Brady isn't as good as he's hyped because he is just a systems guy and BB is his coach. So which is it? You can't say BB isn't good, just lucky because he has Brady...while also arguing that Brady isn't one of the greatest ever because he benefits from BB and his system. The truth is, BB is a phenomenal coach and its not even debatable...literally one of the absolutely indisputable statements one can make. At the same time, Coaches have to be fortunate to have players they can build a team around...but don't forget the Coach has a big role in identifying those players too. So to discredit BB and say he is lucky he got Brady completely ignores the fact they are the ones who drafted him when no one else did. So you could say they were SMART to draft Brady when no one else would because they saw something in him they liked that others didn't see enough of to even spend a later round pick on the kid. Not to mention, players develop through coaching, the system they play in, and the players they play with...again saying BB only wins because of Brady completely disregards all the coaching and development that went into Brady and the game planning they do week to week to put Brady in the best possible scenario for success week to week. Case Closed...BB is an Elite coach and certainly legitimately in the conversation for best ever. Edited August 15, 2016 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gomper Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Its foolish to say he's lucky and here is why: That argument would be applicable to every coach in every sport in history. Teams don't win Championships with marginal players and just a great coach. Winning in the NFL isn't going to happen without great players...period. So to say he is only "Lucky" because he had Brady is stupid unless you are prepared to say every coach was "lucky" to have so and so (Doesn't always have to be a QB). This Gibbs myth being played out here for instance...those Redskins teams were DEEP with tons of talent and HOF players...to just disregard that because you don't think the QB was one of best ever is comical at best. There are 22 starters on both sides of the ball, the overall talent of the team isn't determined by the ranking of just one player, the QB. Coaches take those collection of players, some bad, some solid, some great and in some cases there are some that are Elite or historically great...and they put them into position to win against other teams with similar makeups. Once the playoffs begin, you are facing other talented players and teams fighting for the same prize. No matter how good your players are, you still need the right game plan, coaching, preparation, etc to win as OFTEN and CONSISTENTLY as the Patriots do..and its so difficult to do in the NFL where injuries and free agency change the makeup of teams year after year that their era of dominance is rare in terms of success and length of time. A coach can NOT under ANY circumstance be successful for sustained periods of time without a good team or better. His teams in Cleveland were terrible and bottom third of the league. NO COACH would have succeeded with that roster, so to act like his coaching resume is poor because of that is just trying to find a reason to discredit him. Patriots turn their roster nearly as much, if not more than, any team in the NFL...including key players. They change their entire game plan every single year, even week to week, to match the state of the roster and its opponents. And they do it with a HIGH level of success. They make what seem like marginal players or finished players before they come to NE into highly productive players, even Pro Bowlers on a regular basis. Funniest thing about some of these posters in this thread arguing he is lucky to have Brady and he's not a good coach...many are the same posters who say Brady isn't as good as he's hyped because he is just a systems guy and BB is his coach. So which is it? You can't say BB isn't good, just lucky because he has Brady...while also arguing that Brady isn't one of the greatest ever because he benefits from BB and his system. The truth is, BB is a phenomenal coach and its not even debatable...literally one of the absolutely indisputable statements one can make. At the same time, Coaches have to be fortunate to have players they can build a team around...but don't forget the Coach has a big role in identifying those players too. So to discredit BB and say he is lucky he got Brady completely ignores the fact they are the ones who drafted him when no one else did. So you could say they were SMART to draft Brady when no one else would because they saw something in him they liked that others didn't see enough of to even spend a later round pick on the kid. Not to mention, players develop through coaching, the system they play in, and the players they play with...again saying BB only wins because of Brady completely disregards all the coaching and development that went into Brady and the game planning they do week to week to put Brady in the best possible scenario for success week to week. Case Closed...BB is an Elite coach and certainly legitimately in the conversation for best ever. +1000 Well said. He's the best ever. It sucks...I know. It's also reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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