5 Wide Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 My biggest issue with all this nonsense is that there are borderline infractions on damn near every play.... It seems the flags get pulled out at selective times and in a lopsided way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Turtle Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 The guy didn't even buckle or bend from the block. There is no reason to make that call. I understand bad calls from bad angles. That happens all the time. But not only did Incognito hit him at the waist, the guy didn't even bend from the hit. Intolerable call. I think the refs make that call 10 out of 10 times, regardless of where the contact happens. And that's due to their over-aggressive interpretation of the rule. It's wrong, but that's the way games are being called. O-linemen can't lunge and make contact with an engaged defender. To double-team they have to stay on their feet. Otherwise, the overwhelming odds are that the referee is going to make the call. Incognito didn't have to leave his feet to help with that block. If he takes one more step and stays on his feet, that call has no chance of happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Greg Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Horrible, horrible call. To throw that flag and take a touchdown off the board... just a soft, weak, NFL ref style call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 He was going for the waist IMO...and succeded. Calling penalties by reading the players' mind is a very slippery slope. Yep, no penalty there. His hands touched below the waist, he hit above it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 He went lower than the other OL's engagement point, they'll call that every time. He should know better, and coaches should make sure our players know better. no....sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilLions Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Stupid play. The guy is already effectively blocked. And how about the pressure getting thru up the middle ? No ones going to split hairs and say it was his waist, thigh, nut sack, whatever. Richie is dropping down at a descending angle . If you're going to hit him gotta be high, as in chest area . PUH-LEASE, GIVE ME A BREAK. What was that thing on his lip? A mustache? Dirty Sanchez? Hah! Yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluenews Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 The head referee threw the chop block penalty flag. He was on opposite side of formation and view partially blocked by line and Tyrod Taylor. Just s bad call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Greg Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 The head referee threw the chop block penalty flag. He was on opposite side of formation and view partially blocked by line and Tyrod Taylor. Just s bad call. And I mean, we're arguing over whether his finger tips touched slightly below the waist. The defender wasn't even CHOPPED down. Keep the flag in your pocket Nancy. It's football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebug Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Reminds me of the tripping call in hockey. The ref doesn`t see the trip, but sees the guy go down and makes the call, even though the guy tripped on his own. BS call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 From the NFL rule book: A chop block is a foul by the offense in which one offensive player (designated as A1 for purposes of this rule) blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower while another offensive player (A2) occupies that same defensive player in one of the circumstances described in subsections (1) through (10) below. The penalty on Incognito was not a penalty. But apparently, according to a bunch of the experts here, Richie intended to hit the guy low when he lunged but missed and ended up hitting him high............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I think the refs make that call 10 out of 10 times, regardless of where the contact happens. And that's due to their over-aggressive interpretation of the rule. It's wrong, but that's the way games are being called. O-linemen can't lunge and make contact with an engaged defender. To double-team they have to stay on their feet. Otherwise, the overwhelming odds are that the referee is going to make the call. Incognito didn't have to leave his feet to help with that block. If he takes one more step and stays on his feet, that call has no chance of happening. I agree 100 percent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) This seems like an odd thing to say. He made a split second move in a football play and made a legitimate block. Got flagged for a legal block, but he's at fault for putting the refs in a position to make a bad call? Is this a real thing? I concur. The players abide by the rules or don't. If they do something legal, they shouldn't worry about being penalized. Furthermore, in the clutch most officials put the flags away when the game is on the line to avoid criticism for borderline calls, let alone a legal play. This one is on the official. If Incognito didn't fall, it isn't a penalty. This sets up a dangerous precedent. Edited October 5, 2015 by justnzane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 The chop block rule was enacted to prevent defenders from getting their knees blown-out. This wasn't even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 You can blame the refs all you want but did Incognito need to do that? He should never have put the refs in that situation in the first place. You say that now, until of course theres a play where he decides now not to help out on a block, the defender gets free and the QB is sacked and your screaming why Richie didn't help out and just stood around...... It was a blown call that the Bills will hear about when the league send out their apology letters. The referee defenders here can say all they want about intent or whatever, but the rule states thighs or lower, last time I checked the waist was above the thighs............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookie Man Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 The refs have too much influence on the outcome of the game. Borderline game changing penalties are being called at the drop of a hat. It's like a crap shoot. A big play happens, then you look around and check for flags. Whether it's a legit call or not is just plain luck it seems. Teams' seasons can hinge on if the refs are pms'ing or whatever that day. It's a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Is it worth mentioning that the the play occurred in garbage time and that the Bills had virtually no chance of winning even if they scored? There was less than a minute to go. Edited October 5, 2015 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Turtle Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 You say that now, until of course theres a play where he decides now not to help out on a block, the defender gets free and the QB is sacked and your screaming why Richie didn't help out and just stood around...... It was a blown call that the Bills will hear about when the league send out their apology letters. The referee defenders here can say all they want about intent or whatever, but the rule states thighs or lower, last time I checked the waist was above the thighs............. Yeah, and that letter and 25 cents will be worth 25 cents. This is really simple. When a Buffalo Bill taunts an opponent, he's getting flagged. When a Buffalo Bill shoves or punches an opponent after a whistle, he's getting flagged. When someone on the bench mouths off to an official, he's getting flagged. When an engaged defender gets spun around, the Bills O lineman is getting flagged. When an O lineman lunges at an engaged defender, he's getting flagged. It doesn't matter what the rulebook says, that's how the refs are calling that game, so that's what's going to happen. And no apology is going to change that. Until the Bills actually adjust to these realities, the SOS is going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkreed Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 The worst part is that the idea of advantage / disadvantage is not used anymore by officials. In every sport, if the player committing the foul gains an advantage, call the penalty. If it has no effect, don't call it. RI did not disadvantage the player (hell he didn't even fall). Plain and simple don't make that call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caveman Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 He went lower than the other OL's engagement point, they'll call that every time. He should know better, and coaches should make sure our players know better. Agreed. How many stupid penalties today did we definitely deserve. We're gonna nitpick one or two maybe questionable ones? The worst part is that the idea of advantage / disadvantage is not used anymore by officials. In every sport, if the player committing the foul gains an advantage, call the penalty. If it has no effect, don't call it. RI did not disadvantage the player (hell he didn't even fall). Plain and simple don't make that call. Except this isn't a competitive advantage penalty, it's for player safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Horrible, horrible call. To throw that flag and take a touchdown off the board... just a soft, weak, NFL ref style call. Thing is, the ref throws the flag just as the pass is released so he doesn't really know its going to be a TD. My beef is the over-officiating. The Ref "thinks" he sees a guy block low but if it's not 100% obvious why is he flagging it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookie Man Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Yeah, and that letter and 25 cents will be worth 25 cents. This is really simple. When a Buffalo Bill taunts an opponent, he's getting flagged. When a Buffalo Bill shoves or punches an opponent after a whistle, he's getting flagged. When someone on the bench mouths off to an official, he's getting flagged. When an engaged defender gets spun around, the Bills O lineman is getting flagged. When an O lineman lunges at an engaged defender, he's getting flagged. It doesn't matter what the rulebook says, that's how the refs are calling that game, so that's what's going to happen. And no apology is going to change that. Until the Bills actually adjust to these realities, the SOS is going to happen. Ok I'm trying to look up chop block definitions, but I can't find where it says anything about lunging. Is this a new extention to the rule or something? Could you clarify the lunging aspect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkreed Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Thing is, the ref throws the flag just as the pass is released so he doesn't really know its going to be a TD. My beef is the over-officiating. The Ref "thinks" he sees a guy block low but if it's not 100% obvious why is he flagging it? My question from up thread still is Why is the referee watching the line?!? His responsibility is the quarterback! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Turtle Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Ok I'm trying to look up chop block definitions, but I can't find where it says anything about lunging. Is this a new extention to the rule or something? Could you clarify the lunging aspect? It's the refs perception. He's sees Incognito dive, so he assumes he went low on an engaged player, so he makes the call. The rulebook, at that point, has nothing to do with the call. In that moment. he's not making the call based upon a scientific measurement, or a strict interpretation of the rulebook, he's making it on his perception of a guy going low on an engaged defender. So either you rely on a refs perception that the block was within the legal area (above the hip), which would be insane, because everything I hear is that the refs basically suck (and I believe they do), or you coach your team to avoid those situations by not leaving your feet to block engaged defenders unless your QBs health is in jeopardy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Lunging doesn't count for anything unless the defender's knees are struck. Again, not even close to what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookie Man Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 It's the refs perception. He's sees Incognito dive, so he assumes he went low on an engaged player, so he makes the call. The rulebook, at that point, has nothing to do with the call. In that moment. he's not making the call based upon a scientific measurement, or a strict interpretation of the rulebook, he's making it on his perception of a guy going low on an engaged defender. So either you rely on a refs perception that the block was within the legal area (above the hip), which would be insane, because everything I hear is that the refs basically suck (and I believe they do), or you coach your team to avoid those situations by not leaving your feet to block engaged defenders unless your QBs health is in jeopardy. So lunging holds no bearing to the rule. So basically, the ref was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 So lunging holds no bearing to the rule. So basically, the ref was wrong. Yup. And yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Turtle Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 So lunging holds no bearing to the rule. So basically, the ref was wrong. Aside from the fact that the ref perceived lunging to equal hitting low, yea. Big surprise. They're probably wrong on half the calls they make (or don't make). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caveman Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 So lunging holds no bearing to the rule. So basically, the ref was wrong. Right, but as multiple people have mentioned, it's frequently called this way based on what the ref can see, so our guys need to be smarter and realize it might be called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) I feel like it's worth mentioning again that the Bills still would have lost if the call hadn't been made. There was less than a minute to go and the success rate for onside kicks is quite low in game ending situations. Edited October 5, 2015 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Turtle Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Right, but as multiple people have mentioned, it's frequently called this way based on what the ref can see, so our guys need to be smarter and realize it might be called. Bingo. I feel like it's worth mentioning again that the Bills still would have lost if the call hadn't been made. There was less than a minute to go and the success rate for onside kicks is quite low in game ending situations. Especially since the Bills average 3 penalties on every onside kick they attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookie Man Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Right, but as multiple people have mentioned, it's frequently called this way based on what the ref can see, so our guys need to be smarter and realize it might be called.I mean I get it, but I don't. If he didn't break the rules, there shouldn't be a flag. As is always the case. There's just too much grey area in officiating. I think that's something that everyone agrees on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurmal34 Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Problem was there was no need for RI to even touch the guy. Yep. Glenn had his guy taken care of. If that was Incognito's assignment, he should have gone high. Why give the refs a chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuoteTheRaven83 Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 You say that now, until of course theres a play where he decides now not to help out on a block, the defender gets free and the QB is sacked and your screaming why Richie didn't help out and just stood around...... It was a blown call that the Bills will hear about when the league send out their apology letters. The referee defenders here can say all they want about intent or whatever, but the rule states thighs or lower, last time I checked the waist was above the thighs............. Were you watching with your eyes open? The guy was nowhere near the QB. Incognito could've laid there on his back and not done anything, and he wouldn't have gotten to Tyrod. Incognito's to blame for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookie Man Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Were you watching with your eyes open? The guy was nowhere near the QB. Incognito could've laid there on his back and not done anything, and he wouldn't have gotten to Tyrod. Incognito's to blame for that. Great points, but how is he to know this without seeing Tyrod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Were you watching with your eyes open? The guy was nowhere near the QB. Incognito could've laid there on his back and not done anything, and he wouldn't have gotten to Tyrod. Incognito's to blame for that. Yeah, my eyes were open, unlike many here and the refs, its how I was able to see that it wasn't a chop block because he didn't hit him at the thigh or lower They play didn't happen that far away from the QB. If Taylor doesn't throw it and decides to take off and run, which he could have done because there was an opening, Richie is going over to make the block to make sure the guy closest to the QB doesn't get loose and get to the QB. Plays happen quickly on the field and the linemen are taught to get out and block where ever they can to open up space and make sure guys don't get loose. He had no one else to block so he went to help with the closest guy to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuoteTheRaven83 Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Yeah, my eyes were open, unlike many here and the refs, its how I was able to see that it wasn't a chop block because he didn't hit him at the thigh or lower They play didn't happen that far away from the QB. If Taylor doesn't throw it and decides to take off and run, which he could have done because there was an opening, Richie is going over to make the block to make sure the guy closest to the QB doesn't get loose and get to the QB. Plays happen quickly on the field and the linemen are taught to get out and block where ever they can to open up space and make sure guys don't get loose. He had no one else to block so he went to help with the closest guy to him. Get over it dude. That was an unnecessary play that he made. Whether it was a penalty or not, it wasn't needed. If he needed to make a play, he had plenty of time to block him high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Greg Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 My question from up thread still is Why is the referee watching the line?!? His responsibility is the quarterback! Clearly Tyrod Taylor does not meet the NFL's criteria for being eligible for a late hit on the QB, so no need to look out for that one. Might as well see if there are some phantom calls on the line they can make against the Bills instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 He went lower than the other OL's engagement point, they'll call that every time. He should know better, and coaches should make sure our players know better. This. You can't expect the ref to make the correct call there. Hi-low, chop block. Hi, not-as-low-as-it-should-be-by-rule, chop block. Richie didn't even need to hit the guy, Cordy had him handled. Stupid play. Clearly Tyrod Taylor does not meet the NFL's criteria for being eligible for a late hit on the QB, so no need to look out for that one. Might as well see if there are some phantom calls on the line they can make against the Bills instead. Back-to-back plays with no late hit call. That's three times this year at least with no call or a picked up flag on Tyrod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Clearly Tyrod Taylor does not meet the NFL's criteria for being eligible for a late hit on the QB, so no need to look out for that one. Might as well see if there are some phantom calls on the line they can make against the Bills instead. im not blaming the refs, im blaming the bills today for lack of discipline. but i think theres an element of truth in this and it applies to mobile QBs; vick has been getting the %@$& knocked out of him for years w/o roughing called Edited October 5, 2015 by JTSP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I feel like it's worth mentioning again that the Bills still would have lost if the call hadn't been made. There was less than a minute to go and the success rate for onside kicks is quite low in game ending situations. Dave, I think this is the exact wrong point to make. #1) no matter time/ situation in game, a wrong call is a wrong call. #2) bills still had three timeouts and 53 seconds left, with Eli always capable of making boneheaded plays. That game is far from over if the TD counts. I would say Bills win % is like 15% there, but certainly not zero. 3) I am still pissed about the flag that was picked up earlier in the drive. No doubt Bills deserves what they got yesterday, but also o doubt the refs do not pick that flag up if it was Eli getting hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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