negativo Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 So are you saying that Whaley did not, in fact, go rogue? Rogue Light. Sounds like a good beer! Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Ryan does not head football ops. Per page 7 of the Bills media guide: http://prod.static.bills.clubs.nfl.com/assets/docs/Buffalo-Bills-Media-Guide.pdf FOOTBALL ADMINISTRATION Kevin Meganck Director of Football Operations Don Purdy Director of Football Administration Michael Lyons Director of Analytics Casey Weidl Manager of Football Operations Peter Linton System Analyst I've determined that Negativo is Tim Graham. The accuracy of everything they write is non-existent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) Your link is bad, but your points are good. I looked up for myself the publicly stated roles of Whaley and Rex and found you are correct. According to Pegula, Whaley has been given authority to select the 53 man roster. Based on that, I will back off my position about Whaley overstepping his authority or boundaries. That said, it's hardly following the open, consultative, unified model Pegula spoke about so passionately. If, as reported, he cut Fred unilaterally and secretly against the desires of football ops, which is headed by Ryan, it's pretty sleazy. Whaley may have final say on the 53, but that doesn't mean he's the only voice that matters. Thanks for letting me know about the link; I edited and actually linked in the press conference transcript, which is the better source. I also appreciate you researching and changing your view. That said, please note that it was NOT reported that "Whaley cut Fred unilaterally and secretly against the desires of football ops, which is headed by Ryan." If you feel to the contrary, kindly provide a link. Otherwise, IMHO I think you should stop saying it was reported, because that's in fact not true. What was "reported" was that two (unspecified) sources told Graham that Whaley "went rogue" with the cut, without any detail about what "going rogue" meant. It was later corrected by Graham that Pegula had been informed, and that M&T was "embarassed". Everything else is inference from Graham's vague tweet with no further details as yet forthcoming. Important detail, as explained, Ryan is the head coach, he is not the head of football ops. In fact, if you go to the Bills home page and look at "front office", you will see that the Bills have no one with that title, but in any case, Ryan's title is "head coach". Brandon is "President". Brandon functionally heads what is commonly called the "football operations" branch, which means the people who handle day to day operations - keep the stadium and locker room running, make sure there are meals and gatorade and hotels and transportation, handle equipment, supervise the office staff and interns, negotiate contracts, handle PR, etc etc - Google "duties of director of football operations" if you don't believe me (Edit: I sit corrected, the Bills do indeed have a Director of Football Operations, just too low down to show on their home page - he's in the "Football Administration" branch under Overdorf. It's still not Ryan, and I think to most, Football Ops means someone in the Front Office Staff, under Brandon.) So if you heard "football operations wasn't informed" and inferred from that "Rex Ryan was not consulted or Whaley went against his wishes", you are working from a misunderstanding of what Football Ops means. Football ops means Brandon and his underlings (Overdorf), and in most organizations, Football Ops is not consulted on decisions to cut a player other than to weigh in on the salary cap implications. What muddies the water with the Bills is that for many years, Brandon functioned as GM and WAS directly involved in roster decisions and the line between business/PR decisions and football decisions was blurred. Most people regard this as a Bad Thing and a major factor in the Bills playoff drought. Edited September 3, 2015 by Hopeful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 Maybe Pegs isn't perfect, Kryk, but at least this guy isn't our owner @realDonaldTrump: Congratulations to Tom Brady on yet another great victory- Tom is my friend and a total winner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Maybe Pegs isn't perfect, Kryk, but at least this guy isn't our owner @realDonaldTrump: Congratulations to Tom Brady on yet another great victory- Tom is my friend and a total winner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsmovinup Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) I'll just point to all the misinformation that came out during the Mike Babcock situation. It was heavily reported that the Sabres and Babcock had a deal. Then when Babcock signed with Toronto the Buffalo media speculated that Babcock merely used the Sabres as a ploy to get his price up and then went to Toronto with the numbers and finalized a deal with the leafs. When Schopp brought this up to Murray, essentially accusing Babcock of bargaining in bad faith, Murray clearly became agitated and called the speculation nonsense and said Babcock did nothing of the sort. My point being you can't trust anything the press says. They love to start crap because it sells papers and lights up the phone lines. So I take these kind of reports with a grain of salt. Edited September 3, 2015 by Billsmovinup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 so y'all are saying we have a Mellow Drama? Maybe Pegs isn't perfect, Kryk, but at least this guy isn't our owner@realDonaldTrump: Congratulations to Tom Brady on yet another great victory- Tom is my friend and a total winner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Could you imagine if Trump was owner of the bills? He would probably come over the loudspeaker with some sort of code.....our D would all of a sudden stop moving......and Brady would trott to the end zone untouched.....laughing all the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 Could you imagine if Trump was owner of the bills? He would probably come over the loudspeaker with some sort of code.....our D would all of a sudden stop moving......and Brady would trott to the end zone untouched.....laughing all the way i can't even imagine. Trump and Rex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Maybe Pegs isn't perfect, Kryk, but at least this guy isn't our owner @realDonaldTrump: Congratulations to Tom Brady on yet another great victory- Tom is my friend and a total winner! I cannot even imagine the state of the Bills had that douchebag purchased them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I cannot even imagine the state of the Bills had that douchebag purchased them. Something like this..... CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) It would seem to me that the only person who "went rogue" is Russ. I'm sure he is behind these leaks to some degree--he is the only hold over from the Ralph days who is firmly entrenched in upper management. The "old Bills" ran a very specific model, which was based on a cost/benefit analysis, was heavily market-based/fan opinion driven, and put winning as priority number 3 behind the bottom dollar and a packed stadium. And it worked. The Bills have been a steady "success story" in the NFL for the past 20 years, despite putting a horrible product on the field. This is due to one man and one man only: Russ Brandon. I love the guy, but his job was to keep the Bills afloat in the salary cap era, and make us look like a "legitimate" football team. As you are seeing from our moves this summer, the road to being a "legitimate" football team is a different one than we have traveled of late, and most fans are adjusting slowly... which is better than the Buffalo News, who have thus far been unable to change at all. Fred Jackson is one of my favorite Bills of all time, second only to Kelly. But, sadly, his "prime" may be behind him. If we were set at QB (like Seattle), we could afford to keep a veteran running back on the team to spell the bell cow... but we can't, and we'll take 3 QBs into the season. If this decision was made 4 years ago, Fred would still be captain of the Bills, because the fans love him. But one stat I don't see brought up very much in the discussion of Fred's career is the Bills records during that time... 6-10, 6-10, 6-10, 4-12, etc. etc. That is not to say Fred is responsible for those records... he isn't. He was a ray of hope during those days. But the fact of the matter is, a football team has to be run a certain way to be that bad for that long, and the Bills were run that way by Russ. Everything was a marketing decision to put butts in the seats, regardless of the product. Toronto: Marketing decision. St. John Fisher's: Marketing decision. Terrell Owens: Marketing. and on and on and on. Well, now the Bills make FOOTBALL decisions. To win FOOTBALL games. To try to put people in the seat that way. Will it work? I hope so. But at the end of the day, the only "internal" sources that seem to care about this Fred decision are the marketing guys... who didn't get enough of a heads up.. ala, Russ Brandon. He doesn't like giving up his power and influence at one bills drive (who would), and the old model would have been to either let a guy retire on his own accord because the fans love him (Kelsay), or trash him on his way out the door because we can't afford him (Lynch, et. al). This is a relatively new phenomenon in Buffalo, to cut big names for the sake of a younger, better roster. Congrats, you nailed it re: the leak. Edited September 3, 2015 by Rico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
negativo Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) Thanks for letting me know about the link; I edited and actually linked in the press conference transcript, which is the better source. I also appreciate you researching and changing your view. That said, please note that it was NOT reported that "Whaley cut Fred unilaterally and secretly against the desires of football ops, which is headed by Ryan." If you feel to the contrary, kindly provide a link. Otherwise, IMHO I think you should stop saying it was reported, because that's in fact not true. What was "reported" was that two (unspecified) sources told Graham that Whaley "went rogue" with the cut, without any detail about what "going rogue" meant. It was later corrected by Graham that Pegula had been informed, and that M&T was "embarassed". Everything else is inference from Graham's vague tweet with no further details as yet forthcoming. Important detail, as explained, Ryan is the head coach, he is not the head of football ops. In fact, if you go to the Bills home page and look at "front office", you will see that the Bills have no one with that title, but in any case, Ryan's title is "head coach". Brandon is "President". Brandon functionally heads what is commonly called the "football operations" branch, which means the people who handle day to day operations - keep the stadium and locker room running, make sure there are meals and gatorade and hotels and transportation, handle equipment, supervise the office staff and interns, negotiate contracts, handle PR, etc etc - Google "duties of director of football operations" if you don't believe me (Edit: I sit corrected, the Bills do indeed have a Director of Football Operations, just too low down to show on their home page - he's in the "Football Administration" branch under Overdorf. It's still not Ryan, and I think to most, Football Ops means someone in the Front Office Staff, under Brandon.) So if you heard "football operations wasn't informed" and inferred from that "Rex Ryan was not consulted or Whaley went against his wishes", you are working from a misunderstanding of what Football Ops means. Football ops means Brandon and his underlings (Overdorf), and in most organizations, Football Ops is not consulted on decisions to cut a player other than to weigh in on the salary cap implications. What muddies the water with the Bills is that for many years, Brandon functioned as GM and WAS directly involved in roster decisions and the line between business/PR decisions and football decisions was blurred. Most people regard this as a Bad Thing and a major factor in the Bills playoff drought. @ByTimGraham: There are a lot of key people in football operations, coaching staff and administration who were left out. https://t.co/PZck5QEaXf @ByTimGraham: He deviated from the wishes of football ops and made the decision without any heads up. https://t.co/QJSbbUMTev These are the tweets that I find the most damning. He also claimed in a follow up tweet that the coaching staff didn't know about cutting Fred, but I don't have time to hunt it down. Anyway, the point is clear that Graham says his inside sources report Whaley went against the wishes of coaches/football ops and surprised them all when making the cut. Regarding football ops, it's tricky deducing who they report to. Pat Meyer is listed under Rex's staff as "Football Operations Consultant", so the waters seem muddy on who Graham was referring to in "ops". That said, I find it difficult to believe Graham's sources had their panties in a wad because a low level data processing dude wasn't informed. That said, you're right about inference. He is being very evasive about exactly who knew what and when they knew it. I detest Graham, and always have. However, he was right about his sources for Pegula purchasing the Bills and says these are the same sources. Much as I hate him, and disrespect his sensationalist journalism, I'm buying what he's selling on this report. Edited September 3, 2015 by negativo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 It would seem to me that the only person who "went rogue" is Russ. I'm sure he is behind these leaks to some degree--he is the only hold over from the Ralph days who is firmly entrenched in upper management. The "old Bills" ran a very specific model, which was based on a cost/benefit analysis, was heavily market-based/fan opinion driven, and put winning as priority number 3 behind the bottom dollar and a packed stadium. And it worked. The Bills have been a steady "success story" in the NFL for the past 20 years, despite putting a horrible product on the field. This is due to one man and one man only: Russ Brandon. I love the guy, but his job was to keep the Bills afloat in the salary cap era, and make us look like a "legitimate" football team. As you are seeing from our moves this summer, the road to being a "legitimate" football team is a different one than we have traveled of late, and most fans are adjusting slowly... which is better than the Buffalo News, who have thus far been unable to change at all. Fred Jackson is one of my favorite Bills of all time, second only to Kelly. But, sadly, his "prime" may be behind him. If we were set at QB (like Seattle), we could afford to keep a veteran running back on the team to spell the bell cow... but we can't, and we'll take 3 QBs into the season. If this decision was made 4 years ago, Fred would still be captain of the Bills, because the fans love him. But one stat I don't see brought up very much in the discussion of Fred's career is the Bills records during that time... 6-10, 6-10, 6-10, 4-12, etc. etc. That is not to say Fred is responsible for those records... he isn't. He was a ray of hope during those days. But the fact of the matter is, a football team has to be run a certain way to be that bad for that long, and the Bills were run that way by Russ. Everything was a marketing decision to put butts in the seats, regardless of the product. Toronto: Marketing decision. St. John Fisher's: Marketing decision. Terrell Owens: Marketing. and on and on and on. Well, now the Bills make FOOTBALL decisions. To win FOOTBALL games. To try to put people in the seat that way. Will it work? I hope so. But at the end of the day, the only "internal" sources that seem to care about this Fred decision are the marketing guys... who didn't get enough of a heads up.. ala, Russ Brandon. He doesn't like giving up his power and influence at one bills drive (who would), and the old model would have been to either let a guy retire on his own accord because the fans love him (Kelsay), or trash him on his way out the door because we can't afford him (Lynch, et. al). This is a relatively new phenomenon in Buffalo, to cut big names for the sake of a younger, better roster. Thank you for writing this - this is a very thoughtful take, and a history lesson re: Bills prior ops. I thought "Brandon" at first as well. But Brandon was just handed a whole new arena of power and influence with the Sabres, and Brandon also reports directly to Pegula and might be expected to hear from the top. And there are other holdovers - Littman is gone but Overdorf, as Sr VP of Football Administration, Berchtold as Sr VP of Communications for sure. LaMattina as EVP, Finance and Business Operations? Brent Rossi as EVP of Marketing and Brand Strategy? Ah ha. What was Graham's one factual complaint? M&T started a marketing campaign featuring Jackson today and that "embarrassment" could have been avoided. That sounds like Marketing and Brand Strategy, or possibly Communications. It sounds to me as though Brent Rossi is a prime candidate for one of Graham's sources, or Berchtold., or someone under them, or both. Think about it - these guys are part of Brandon's staff, used to sitting at his right hand and in a market based/fan opinion driven organization, used to knowing about or even contributing to player personnel decisions. Moreover, Graham previously reported on a disconnect/conflict between these guys and Whaley/Marrone back during the Byrd negotiations, when Wilson was still alive. Now the organizational structure under the Pegulas gives more power and influence to Whaley and Ryan; Littmann is gone; Brandon is now President of 2 Sports Teams; and these guys are further out of the loop. It sounds as if they already had some bad feeling towards Whaley, and if left out of the loop (and there is no reason why they should participate in the decision), maybe they would be happy to do their best to back-stab Whaley. All speculation, of course, I don't know a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) @https://twitter.com/ByTimGraham/status/639065107297882112 @https://twitter.com/ByTimGraham/status/639065107297882112 These are the tweets that I find the most damning. He also claimed in a follow up tweet that the coaching staff didn't know about cutting Fred, but I don't have time to hunt it down. Anyway, the point is clear that Graham says his inside sources report Whaley went against the wishes of coaches/football ops and surprised them all when making the cut. Regarding football ops, it's tricky deducing who they report to. Pat Meyer is listed under Rex's staff as "Football Operations Consultant", so the waters seem muddy on who Graham was referring to in "ops". That said, I find it difficult to believe Graham's sources had their panties in a wad because a low level data processing dude wasn't informed. That said, you're right about inference. He is being very evasive about exactly who knew what and when they knew it. I detest Graham, and always have. However, he was right about his sources for Pegula purchasing the Bills and says these are the same sources. Much as I hate him, and disrespect his sensationalist journalism, I'm buying what he's selling on this report. Negativo, I'm afraid those are exactly the same tweet reference number repeated twice. Moreover, both take me to "Sorry, That Page Doesn't Exist". When I search Tim Graham's twitter, this is what I find and all I find (sorry, I'm not great at linking Twitter). Nowhere do I find anything where Graham is quoted as saying Whaley went against the wishes of coaches, or of football ops - sorry! If you can find the actual links, I'd be happy to take a look, but until then it is not clear to me nor have I seen Graham explain what he meant by "going rogue". You can buy what Graham's selling in this report, which is that Whaley went rogue, whatever that means- but I do think you could refrain from making inferences unless you can support them. And there's a lot of executive VP and senior VPs charged with marketing and communications and the like, who might conceivably be upset at being out of the loop on something with a big PR impact, but who really have no legitimate seat at the table for a football roster decision - no one has suggested it was "low level data processing dude" who wasn't informed. Tim Graham @ByTimGraham Sep 2 Whaley did speak with Terry and Kim Pegula before Fred Jackson was cut. Two sources tell me they were surprised w/decision but supported. Tim Graham @ByTimGraham Sep 1 "Being in the loop" would prevent one of Bills' biggest sponsors from launching expensive Fred Jackson ad campaign today. It's embarrassing. ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk Sep 1 Bills G.M. Doug Whaley "went rogue" in cutting Fred Jackson, via @ByTimGraham http://wp.me/p14QSB-9Q6M PS it's not muddy at all what "Football Operations" is or whom they report to. They're administrative. They report up through Brandon, in the case of the "Director of Football Operations" in the media guide he reports up through Football Administration, Overdorf. "Football Operations Consultant" is, I think, Rex's liason to Football Operations, charged with making sure Football Ops knows what Rex thinks the team needs for their next practice or roadtrip (more ladders, more tackling dummies, better PA system etc). You really don't need to take my word for it - you can google around what a "Director of Football Operations" does and what Football Operations means, but it doesn't mean Rex. Edited September 3, 2015 by Hopeful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I cannot even imagine the state of the Bills had that douchebag purchased them. They wouldn't be the Bills anymore. I really believe that. The team would take another form in a bigger city. I can't believe some people actually thought he'd be a good owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never NEVER Give-up Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Ryan does not head football ops. Per page 7 of the Bills media guide: http://prod.static.bills.clubs.nfl.com/assets/docs/Buffalo-Bills-Media-Guide.pdf FOOTBALL ADMINISTRATION Kevin Meganck Director of Football Operations Don Purdy Director of Football Administration Michael Lyons Director of Analytics Casey Weidl Manager of Football Operations Peter Linton System Analyst Ah ha!!! So you're saying this Kevin guy is the one who said Whaley went rogue because he wasn't consulted by Whaley beforehand. Interesting. Brandon is BUSINESS. Whaley is FOOTBALL. But in retrospect, in addition to telling the Pegulas and Rex, Doug could have / should have included Russ too - and he could have told M&T Bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JESSEFEFFER Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I don't get the M & T angle and find Tim Graham's tweet about it to be snide . The ad campaign has likely been in the works for weeks/months. The ad buys as well. Are the Bills supposed to tell them before they tell Fred? Are they supposed to give their sponsor some sort of heads' up about the possibility that it might happen weeks before it actually does? I doubt the time difference between when Fred was told and the rest of world found out is less than the time it's taking me to post this. In retrospect, cutting him in February would have been much better for all concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
negativo Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Negativo, I'm afraid those are exactly the same tweet reference number repeated twice. Moreover, both take me to "Sorry, That Page Doesn't Exist". When I search Tim Graham's twitter, this is what I find and all I find (sorry, I'm not great at linking Twitter). Nowhere do I find anything where Graham is quoted as saying Whaley went against the wishes of coaches, or of football ops - sorry! If you can find the actual links, I'd be happy to take a look, but until then it is not clear to me nor have I seen Graham explain what he meant by "going rogue". I found the correct links and edited my post. I'm posting them below for your convenience. @ByTimGraham: There are a lot of key people in football operations, coaching staff and administration who were left out. https://twitter.com/ByTimGraham/status/639063172104720384 @ByTimGraham: He deviated from the wishes of football ops and made the decision without any heads up. https://twitter.com/ByTimGraham/status/639065107297882112 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 It is though. Have you ever made a decision you thought was wrong? made plenty i wasnt sure if were right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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