B-Man Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) Maybe the fact that some of the Fox news idiots and some in the GOP were trying to claim the attack had nothing to with race, and trying to imply it was a hate crime based on religion. perhaps you could provide a link for your fact Besides Todd Rutherford's politicizing BS . Edited June 19, 2015 by B-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Good thing those gangs are well armed in Chicago. I would hate to see the carnage if they were not. Funny, that, considering Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Funny, that, considering Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation. For them to work, you kinda have to have the whole country follow suit... OR put up border control. Of course I am not for either, so I am against the strict laws when in fact they can't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) Police officers who carry guns are trained to shoot and to handle stressful situations. The same cannot be said for any random citizen who gets his hands on a gun. It is completely possible, and perhaps somewhat likely, someone without this training could shoot back, miss and kill someone. Hell, this happens with "trained" officers. All it takes is two shots to incapacitate the perpetrator, or kill two other innocent people. Can you imagine the aftermath if two people were killed by fellow parishioners, even if it resulted in fewer overall deaths? Then it isn't just the result of some wack job criminal, the community would have to live with knowing parishioners were killed by their fellow "sane" church members. And where did I say police weren't (often) reactionary? What's the alternative? A police state? This country had the kind of self-policing you suggest for many years. How did that work out? Your assertion that we wouldn't need police anymore implies that police can do everything. But, like this shooting and a hefty amount of violent acts, the police don't get there in time to save everybody. A police state? No, but I don't mind a few citizens having a gun. If some guy goes to shoot up the grocery store that I'm in, the cops likely will not be there in time to save me, only count the victims. Good things those cops down in Charleston were trained for a stressful situation that they missed. But they were there for the aftermath. Did you know that you have to express competency with your firearm to get a concealed carry permit? It wouldn't be some 14 year old kid holding a weapon for the first time, trying to be a "hero." Again with your absurd assertion that I want a self-governing state. At least pretend to make honest points. Edited June 19, 2015 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Your assertion that we wouldn't need police anymore implies that police can do everything. But, like this shooting and a hefty amount of violent acts, the police don't get there in time to save everybody. A police state? No, but I don't mind a few citizens having a gun. If some guy goes to shoot up the grocery store that I'm in, the cops likely will not be there in time to save me, only count the victims. Did you know that you have to express competency with your firearm to get a concealed carry permit? It wouldn't be some 14 year old kid holding a weapon for the first time, trying to be a "hero." What is all the BS about... You either ban them or you don't... Across the whole country. Everything else is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. You either have the wild west and blow us into Afghanistan or you ban them and trample on people's second (which I don't necessarily buy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 What is all the BS about... You either ban them or you don't... Across the whole country. Everything else is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. You either have the wild west and blow us into Afghanistan or you ban them and trample on people's second (which I don't necessarily buy). Concealed carry states are hardly Afghanistan. It's not black and white at all. Bans have worked so well for drugs, and alcohol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 "At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries. It doesn’t happen in other places with this kind of frequency.” - President Obama And he is absolutely right. When will enough be enough?? You and Barry should probably read the news more often if you genuinely believe this stupidity to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Your assertion that we wouldn't need police anymore implies that police can do everything. But, like this shooting and a hefty amount of violent acts, the police don't get there in time to save everybody. A police state? No, but I don't mind a few citizens having a gun. If some guy goes to shoot up the grocery store that I'm in, the cops likely will not be there in time to save me, only count the victims. Good things those cops down in Charleston were trained for a stressful situation that they missed. But they were there for the aftermath. Did you know that you have to express competency with your firearm to get a concealed carry permit? It wouldn't be some 14 year old kid holding a weapon for the first time, trying to be a "hero." Again with your absurd assertion that I want a self-governing state. At least pretend to make honest points. I'm not sure who/what you are responding to. I NEVER suggested we wouldn't need police. I said, if the "only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" there would be no need for police NEGOTIATORS. Apparently some think bad guys with guns can only be stopped with gun violence. Like you, I'm fine with some citizens owning guns. I actually support the 2nd Amendment, though I believe there should be a reasonable interpretation as to what that means, as there is with the 1st Amendment. But who's going to hand pick the people who might have guns in that church? I think you are a bit mistaken how much training it takes to get a concealed carry license---at least in Florida. Take a look at this: http://citrusccw.com/concealed-carry-classes/faqs/ One gun safety class is the only training necessary. As far as I can tell, no psychological exam, no extensive background check. It is good for 5 years and, as far as I can tell, can be renewed with no further training. Certainly police forces have better, and more frequent, training for their officers. I know Florida's requirements are a bit more stringent (though probably not stringent enough). And, why do you assume a person with a gun would have a concealed weapons license? North Carolina is an open carry state. And the push these days is to expand open carry to places of worship, bars, etc. (Except gov't buildings, it seems. Even politicians most supportive of lax gun regulation don't want to be subject to citizens carrying weapons in their place of business.) The idea ordinary citizens carrying guns, at the time a criminal has a gun, would typically be qualified to take competent and responsible action is absurd. IMO. For personal self defense, such as in your home, I can understand society allowing that risk. But in public places, where groups of people are gathered, I'm certainly not willing to give some random mook off the street the OK to shoot. We already have cops making terrible decisions with guns. Imagine the outcome if we get regular folks into the act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 For them to work, you kinda have to have the whole country follow suit... OR put up border control. Of course I am not for either, so I am against the strict laws when in fact they can't work. Or get rid of all the gun out in the population now and start over with stricter rules. How's that going to work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I'd just like to point out how impressed I am with this thread. The discussion's been civil with virtually no LAMPs. All over FB I see people taking this situation as an opportunity to tell everyone how compassionate and racially sensitive they are. It's refreshing how real this board has kept it. Sure, there are a few who immediately view every tragedy as an opportunity to advance their political narrative, but I'll take that over the bogus self-serving bull ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Or get rid of all the gun out in the population now and start over with stricter rules. How's that going to work? Yeah... The cat's out out of the bag. Quite a conundrum, even for The Riddler! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Do you fly it proudly, this naval jack? gotta say, this was my first thought. in what ohio school would that not be severely castigated? wow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) So the acts of one man are imputed to the society at large? Does that apply to violent acts performed by members of all racial and ethnic groups against others or just white against black? Or are you just trying to earn your "I'm one of the good ones" T-shirt? we all wish it were just one man. sadly it's not: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/19/why-south-carolinas-confederate-flag-isnt-at-half-mast-after-church-shooting/ more ugliness, see pic: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/21/AR2010122105341.html Edited June 20, 2015 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 You and Barry should probably read the news more often if you genuinely believe this stupidity to be true. If you don't know this is true, I feel incredibly sorry for you. Do I think a change in gun laws is going to be the immediate remedy? No. It will take a change in culture that will take longer than you or I will be around to see realized. But why not start now? Countries that have always had decent gun control measures do not see the gun-related crimes, injuries or deaths that the U.S. does. It's statistically proven. No matter what Rush tells you. It's true. Why everyone doesn't long for more peace and less violent deaths is beyond me. But yeah ... go ahead and make it a Barry and me thing. That's just brilliant. Way to keep the conversation mature and civil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 we all wish it were just one man. sadly it's not: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/19/why-south-carolinas-confederate-flag-isnt-at-half-mast-after-church-shooting/ Highly ignorant. The author assumes that because people do what they want with respect to flying the flag at half-staff, that people can do what they want. Uh...no. There is an actual protocol that is supposed to be followed. When people ignore that protocol, it doesn't mean there's no protocol. It means THOSE PEOPLE are wrong. And to then take that highly ignorant position, and extrapolate statewide institutionalized racism supporting the murder of eight(?) people is the worst sort of rationalization of an a priori assumption I have ever seen. Downright offensive. And no surprise, coming from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I'm not sure who/what you are responding to. I NEVER suggested we wouldn't need police. I said, if the "only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" there would be no need for police NEGOTIATORS. Apparently some think bad guys with guns can only be stopped with gun violence. Like you, I'm fine with some citizens owning guns. I actually support the 2nd Amendment, though I believe there should be a reasonable interpretation as to what that means, as there is with the 1st Amendment. But who's going to hand pick the people who might have guns in that church? I think you are a bit mistaken how much training it takes to get a concealed carry license---at least in Florida. Take a look at this: http://citrusccw.com/concealed-carry-classes/faqs/ One gun safety class is the only training necessary. As far as I can tell, no psychological exam, no extensive background check. It is good for 5 years and, as far as I can tell, can be renewed with no further training. Certainly police forces have better, and more frequent, training for their officers. I know Florida's requirements are a bit more stringent (though probably not stringent enough). And, why do you assume a person with a gun would have a concealed weapons license? North Carolina is an open carry state. And the push these days is to expand open carry to places of worship, bars, etc. (Except gov't buildings, it seems. Even politicians most supportive of lax gun regulation don't want to be subject to citizens carrying weapons in their place of business.) The idea ordinary citizens carrying guns, at the time a criminal has a gun, would typically be qualified to take competent and responsible action is absurd. IMO. For personal self defense, such as in your home, I can understand society allowing that risk. But in public places, where groups of people are gathered, I'm certainly not willing to give some random mook off the street the OK to shoot. We already have cops making terrible decisions with guns. Imagine the outcome if we get regular folks into the act. One correction to my post. I'm not sure why I used North Carolina, as this heinous act took place in South Carolina. SC does not have open carry. But they have a very lax concealed carry law, where apparently no gun training is required. http://www.usacarry.com/south_carolina_concealed_carry_permit_information.html They require a NICS background check, which is, a very quick and minimal thing. Were parishioners able to legally carry firearms into that church, there is just no telling what their abilities or competence might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) Highly ignorant. The author assumes that because people do what they want with respect to flying the flag at half-staff, that people can do what they want. Uh...no. There is an actual protocol that is supposed to be followed. When people ignore that protocol, it doesn't mean there's no protocol. It means THOSE PEOPLE are wrong. And to then take that highly ignorant position, and extrapolate statewide institutionalized racism supporting the murder of eight(?) people is the worst sort of rationalization of an a priori assumption I have ever seen. Downright offensive. And no surprise, coming from you. the reason they can't do what they want in regard to flying the flag at half mast is the highly racist and hopefully unprecedented, legislation that put those rules in place in sc. as the article points out, it's highly unlikely they will be overturned. the masters won't let them be. fortunately, the us supremes saw the light. even clarence thomas gets it: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-texas-doesnt-have-to-allow-confederate-flag-license-plates/2015/06/18/d328b824-15c6-11e5-89f3-61410da94eb1_story.html A person could simply attach a bumper sticker with a preferred message in bigger type next to the license plate, Breyer wrote. “But the individual prefers a license plate design to the purely private speech expressed through bumper stickers. That may well be because Texas’s license plate designs convey government agreement with the message displayed,” he wrote. could not the same be said of sc state confederate flag? Edited June 20, 2015 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 IMO the family members of victims speaking directly to Roof at the hearing and stating their forgiveness of him are remarkable people. To think that most are unable to forgive someone who cut them off in traffic and then read about these people reminds me of the goodness inside so many people. I say thank you to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorguy Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 IMO the family members of victims speaking directly to Roof at the hearing and stating their forgiveness of him are remarkable people. To think that most are unable to forgive someone who cut them off in traffic and then read about these people reminds me of the goodness inside so many people. I say thank you to them. Oh man, I wish you the very best Sir, from the bottom of my heart, you nailed it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 IMO the family members of victims speaking directly to Roof at the hearing and stating their forgiveness of him are remarkable people. To think that most are unable to forgive someone who cut them off in traffic and then read about these people reminds me of the goodness inside so many people. I say thank you to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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