dave mcbride Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 He's probably too tough on the Bills, but it's interesting to read evals from someone who is quite knowledgeable about seemingly every team/player. Most of us here are knowledgeable about the Bills and a few other teams, so I like seeing the Bills' moves within a broader context even if I might disagree with a particular grade. http://walterfootball.com/freeagentsigninggrades.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LedyardCTbillsfan Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Does not like the McCoy trade at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Hammersticks Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Seems like they put more emphasis on the financial aspect of the trades, versus the value the player brings to the team. Walterfootball is good for entertainment value...not much substance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Apparently nobody has told Walter that one shouldn't confuse effort with results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordong Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) Bingo, <oney shouldn't have anything to do with these grades. The second the ball is kicked off money doesn't matter. Did the player make the team he went to better? Did it make the team he left worse. Why is that so hard to understand. Seems like they put more emphasis on the financial aspect of the trades, versus the value the player brings to the team. Walterfootball is good for entertainment value...not much substance. Edited March 21, 2015 by gordong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 He makes a decent point about this draft being loaded with RBs. The Bills have a history of ignoring rational economics. If there is a surplus of RBs in this draft, then there is a very good chance you can pick up a quality running back at a bargain-bin price. Yet the Bills go and trade for an expensive RB. Last year there was a glut of quality WRs, and the Bills traded up for one anyhow. These moves may still work out fine, because Sammy and Shady are legitimate blue chippers, but in general it's not the way to manage a portfolio of limited assets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 There's more to determining value than "did the player make your team better?" McCoy will make us better but so would have a RB taken at pick 50 for much much cheaper. The Bills went for what they thought was the sure thing which is kind of an act of desperation on our part because we have to win now in this 2-3 year window. So we did what was best for the team in the short term but obviously we didn't get good value in the trade. But since we are in win now mode then these are the types of moves you make but just know that they won't be graded well by articles like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 He makes a decent point about this draft being loaded with RBs. The Bills have a history of ignoring rational economics. If there is a surplus of RBs in this draft, then there is a very good chance you can pick up a quality running back at a bargain-bin price. Yet the Bills go and trade for an expensive RB. Last year there was a glut of quality WRs, and the Bills traded up for one anyhow. These moves may still work out fine, because Sammy and Shady are legitimate blue chippers, but in general it's not the way to manage a portfolio of limited assets. That specious logic is often bandied around. If one is generous and allows for a 50% chance for any given good draft prospect to become a good NFL player, the odds for the player one drafts to become a good player does not go up simply because there are a surplus of them to chose from. It likely means that the draftee could be had for a lesser draft pick......but that doesn't help a team if they are wanting to immediately shore up a position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 There's more to determining value than "did the player make your team better?" McCoy will make us better but so would have a RB taken at pick 50 for much much cheaper. The Bills went for what they thought was the sure thing which is kind of an act of desperation on our part because we have to win now in this 2-3 year window. So we did what was best for the team in the short term but obviously we didn't get good value in the trade. But since we are in win now mode then these are the types of moves you make but just know that they won't be graded well by articles like this That's a pretty big assumption. How did we not get good value...you mean St Kiko...all world LB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) I pretty much agree with their grades. The situation with the Bills right now reminds me of the Toronto Blue Jays when they went "all in" 3 years ago. Edited March 21, 2015 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProcessAccepted Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Does not like the McCoy trade at all. Clearly he is not from Philly. I know the fans there didn't see it as a major win for the Eagles. The article fails to reflect that we did quite well last year on defense without Kiko, especially against the run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Walter Football is an Eagles fan and for some reason doesn't like the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 That's a pretty big assumption. How did we not get good value...you mean St Kiko...all world LB? Its also a big assumption that the player we received will be equally effective in our offense running behind a fullback and an inferior line. Its all a gamble. The Eagles wanted to unload that player and big contract. We didn't have to give them more than a late round pick. They were going to do it regardless. People get to caught up in the name. Need to look at value. That's why 9 out of 10 articles you read will give this a bad grade. It's the fans that see the name and say that we got the better end of that trade because we got this player for that player. There is a lot more to it than that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) I didn't know we were planning to win 3-5 years from now. I thought the plan was to break the streak, and get back into contention. We will see in 3-5 years what we need to do, Whaley and Rex did what they needed to do to win NOW. So sorry to ruin the worlds 5 year plan for the Bills Edited March 21, 2015 by What a Tuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) Interesting that people are focusing only on the bills' stuff (although perhaps not given that this is a bills board!). I thought a lot of the evals of other moves made a lot of sense and I found it very informative. The mccoy move is literally one among over 100 evals. Edited March 21, 2015 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Its also a big assumption that the player we received will be equally effective in our offense running behind a fullback and an inferior line. Its all a gamble. The Eagles wanted to unload that player and big contract. We didn't have to give them more than a late round pick. They were going to do it regardless. People get to caught up in the name. Need to look at value. That's why 9 out of 10 articles you read will give this a bad grade. It's the fans that see the name and say that we got the better end of that trade because we got this player for that player. There is a lot more to it than that How do you know these things? They got rid of a big contract only to spend more on Murray and Matthews. It's the name and the player. You may not like McCoy but you can't deny he's a top RB in this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) Interesting that people are focusing only on the bills' stuff (although perhaps not given that this is a bills board!). I thought a lot of the evals of other moves made a lot of sense and I found it very informative. The mccoy move is literally one among over 100 evals. I read a lot of the other ones, specifically ones relating to our division. The guy just doesn't seem to like teams spending money, and he makes that a major factor in his grading. If you ignore the grades, there are some good insights though. I'm not sure why people compare Clay's 5 yr 38 million (7.6 per year) to Grahams 4 yr 40 million (10 per year) as though they are almost the same but then rate Cameron's 2 yr 15 million (7.5 per year) as great. Edit: Even breaking down the guarenteed money, Clay got $20 million guarenteed or 4 million per year where as Cameron got $12.5 million guarenteed or $6.25 per year. Edited March 21, 2015 by What a Tuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 How do you know these things? They got rid of a big contract only to spend more on Murray and Matthews. It's the name and the player. You may not like McCoy but you can't deny he's a top RB in this league. Not to mention continue with $3.5 million of dead cap McCoy money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 He's probably too tough on the Bills, but it's interesting to read evals from someone who is quite knowledgeable about seemingly every team/player. Most of us here are knowledgeable about the Bills and a few other teams, so I like seeing the Bills' moves within a broader context even if I might disagree with a particular grade. http://walterfootball.com/freeagentsigninggrades.php Walter has never liked the Bills team... He kept saying in the draft last year that Dareus was gone and the Bills needed to draft a DL... Shows he doesn't follow them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 How do you know these things? They got rid of a big contract only to spend more on Murray and Matthews. It's the name and the player. You may not like McCoy but you can't deny he's a top RB in this league. They tried to get Frank Gore for cheaper. He fell through and I think they panicked. But even so, they got 3 great players (murray, Matthews, kiko) for not much more than the cost of 1 (McCoy). In this league you need more than 1 good RB and now they have 2. They got the better value there's no doubt about it. It's not that I don't like McCoy, it's about getting the players at the right price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 They tried to get Frank Gore for cheaper. He fell through and I think they panicked. But even so, they got 3 great players (murray, Matthews, kiko) for not much more than the cost of 1 (McCoy). In this league you need more than 1 good RB and now they have 2. They got the better value there's no doubt about it. It's not that I don't like McCoy, it's about getting the players at the right price Murray is great, Matthews is good but hasn't played full season in years....as much as everyone here loves Kiko there is no way you can call him great at this point in his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lightning Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Who cares? Let's just play, win and shut everyone up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prickly Pete Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I get the feeling that "Walter" is a Bills fan. He seems little more emotional and involved when writing about the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple haze Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 There's more to determining value than "did the player make your team better?" McCoy will make us better but so would have a RB taken at pick 50 for much much cheaper. The Bills went for what they thought was the sure thing which is kind of an act of desperation on our part because we have to win now in this 2-3 year window. So we did what was best for the team in the short term but obviously we didn't get good value in the trade. But since we are in win now mode then these are the types of moves you make but just know that they won't be graded well by articles like this McCoy is a proven difference maker. He is proven production year in and year out. Just because it's considered a deep RB class, just because analytics says a team can find a guy in the draft, does not mean whoever the Bills drafted would be productive, or productive enough right now. But you're right. In this "Value" era, most seem more concerned with external factors won't like the trade. I don't think it was an act of desperation to get McCoy though. I think they believe he will be a difference maker, and pose matchup problems for defenses because he has for most of his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Hammersticks Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Murray is great, Matthews is good but hasn't played full season in years....as much as everyone here loves Kiko there is no way you can call him great at this point in his career. I don't know if I'd go so far as to call Murray great. Really, what did he do prior to this season. Boobie Dixon could rush for 1,500 yards and 10 TD behind that o-line. We'll see how he fares in philly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsguy Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 He's probably too tough on the Bills, but it's interesting to read evals from someone who is quite knowledgeable about seemingly every team/player. Most of us here are knowledgeable about the Bills and a few other teams, so I like seeing the Bills' moves within a broader context even if I might disagree with a particular grade. http://walterfootball.com/freeagentsigninggrades.php Breaking news: The Bills overpay again! The TE Clay contract is just plain ridiculous. He is being paid like a HOF candidate. I would suggest this money would have been better spent on the interior of the offensive line. The Bills (i.e. Whaley) seem enamored with the shiny toys like Watkins,Clay and McCoy more than any other areas. Running backs are easy to find, but top lineman are at a premium. I would prefer an average talent RB behind an elite offensive line before I would choose a top RB behind a mediocre line. Whaley has made a string of questionable decisions since drafting EJ Manuel to trading up for Watkins to signing Clay among others, but the fans seem to love him nonetheless!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Walter Cherepinsky is a barely 30 year old mock draft geek. Sorry, I'm not putting a whole lot of stock in his free agency grades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uffalo Ills Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 He makes a decent point about this draft being loaded with RBs. The Bills have a history of ignoring rational economics. If there is a surplus of RBs in this draft, then there is a very good chance you can pick up a quality running back at a bargain-bin price. Yet the Bills go and trade for an expensive RB. Last year there was a glut of quality WRs, and the Bills traded up for one anyhow. These moves may still work out fine, because Sammy and Shady are legitimate blue chippers, but in general it's not the way to manage a portfolio of limited assets. There are also a lot of good DEs and OLBs in the draft, and they'll be cheaper. Plus, the way i think about it is, Shady was easily the best player on the eagles offense. Kiko was not even close to the best on our defense. We just traded for the best player on the eagles offense for not even the best player on our defense. Last year, we didnt even need kiko last year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Hammersticks Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Breaking news: The Bills overpay again! I would suggest this money would have been better spent on the interior of the offensive line. The Bills (i.e. Whaley) seem enamored with the shiny toys like Watkins,Clay and McCoy more than any other areas. They tried...remember? Iupati and Bulaga? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Breaking news: The Bills overpay again! The TE Clay contract is just plain ridiculous. He is being paid like a HOF candidate. I would suggest this money would have been better spent on the interior of the offensive line. The Bills (i.e. Whaley) seem enamored with the shiny toys like Watkins,Clay and McCoy more than any other areas. Running backs are easy to find, but top lineman are at a premium. I would prefer an average talent RB behind an elite offensive line before I would choose a top RB behind a mediocre line. Whaley has made a string of questionable decisions since drafting EJ Manuel to trading up for Watkins to signing Clay among others, but the fans seem to love him nonetheless!!! Yeah. I see a lot of short term gain long term pain in the horizon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Hammersticks Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Yeah. I see a lot of short term gain long term pain in the horizon. Why? All the deals were front loaded. Much lesser cap hit after 2 years. The Harvin deal is voidable after year one. If the cap increases as expected, the Bills are expected to have 40-50 million in cap room next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Why? All the deals were front loaded. Much lesser cap hit after 2 years. The Harvin deal is voidable after year one. If the cap increases as expected, the Bills are expected to have 40-50 million in cap room next year. The Harvin deal is the only deal that makes a ton of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KollegeStudnet Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Man, he sure does love all the Patriots and Dolphins moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leper65 Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 They tried to get Frank Gore for cheaper. He fell through and I think they panicked. But even so, they got 3 great players (murray, Matthews, kiko) for not much more than the cost of 1 (McCoy). In this league you need more than 1 good RB and now they have 2. They got the better value there's no doubt about it. It's not that I don't like McCoy, it's about getting the players at the right price How could they have tried to get Gore before McCoy? The trade for McCoy was agreed to almost a week before they could even talk to free agents legally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 He makes a decent point about this draft being loaded with RBs. The Bills have a history of ignoring rational economics. If there is a surplus of RBs in this draft, then there is a very good chance you can pick up a quality running back at a bargain-bin price. Yet the Bills go and trade for an expensive RB. Last year there was a glut of quality WRs, and the Bills traded up for one anyhow. These moves may still work out fine, because Sammy and Shady are legitimate blue chippers, but in general it's not the way to manage a portfolio of limited assets. Don't confuse the value of a collage kid with potential to a proven money pro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Hammersticks Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 How could they have tried to get Gore before McCoy? The trade for McCoy was agreed to almost a week before they could even talk to free agents legally. The Eagles tried to get Gore before Murray. Buffalo never went after Gore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloMatt Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Another hater!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 How could they have tried to get Gore before McCoy? The trade for McCoy was agreed to almost a week before they could even talk to free agents legally. the Eagles did. they announced Frank Gore had agreed to a contract and then he ended up backing out. go back to sleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Its also a big assumption that the player we received will be equally effective in our offense running behind a fullback and an inferior line. Its all a gamble. The Eagles wanted to unload that player and big contract. We didn't have to give them more than a late round pick. They were going to do it regardless. People get to caught up in the name. Need to look at value. That's why 9 out of 10 articles you read will give this a bad grade. It's the fans that see the name and say that we got the better end of that trade because we got this player for that player. There is a lot more to it than that It's also a big assumption that the Eagles were willing to trade McCoy for a late round pick. Or that it wasn't McCoy making the Eagles O line look better than it is ( which some PHL media say). The Eagles obviously didn't think it wise to stand pat after the trade and draft one of the many future pro bowl RBs so readily available in this draft. They went out and spent huge $ on a back of similar quality to shady. This trade was more about the personality clash of an outspoken player and a HC that does college type things with pros ( a la Marrone). McCoy was not shy about voicing his dislike of Chip Kelly's ways. A great player became available and Whaley negotiated a deal. McCoy going for a late rounder is not realistic. The Bills O line has talent. Maybe the new coaches saw flaws in Hackett/ Marrones scheme for the players that they have up front, and feel they can execute what is needed. They obviously see a need atRT, but they knew they needed an elite RB with the current QB situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 the Eagles did. they announced Frank Gore had agreed to a contract and then he ended up backing out. go back to sleep You are incorrect. The Gore deal falling through was after the trade. They tried...remember? Iupati and Bulaga? Should they have "overpaid" for one of them instead of Clay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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