4merper4mer Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 If I wanted to be a Christian all I'd have to do is accept Jesus as my lord and savior, right? Then in order to be a good Christian I'd have to follow the Ten Commandments, correct? Well in Islam it's what you don't do and it's what you do that counts. Your actions. We have to pray 5 times a day, we have to make a pilgrimage to Mecca if we can physically and/or financially, we have to fast during Ramadan, and we have to give money to the poor. So if our actions go against the teachings of Islam then we're not Muslims. Being a Muslim in name only doesn't make you one. You've oversimplified Christianity quite a bit. And you've even answered some of your own questions about it earlier in the thread, although when you did you were speaking about Islam. I'm sure Islam is simpler and yet more complex than your average non-Muslim understands. I can appreciate that. It is also true that Christianity is simpler and yet more complex than the average non-Christian understands. Personally, although you may disagree, I think Christianity is simpler and yet more complex than the average Christian understands and would hazard a guess that Islam is simpler and yet more complex than the average Muslim understands. In my experience, all people have at some points in their life focused on their own interest and justified it within the context of their religion. Most of these are not harmful to others. "Why it is ok to have an extra cheeseburger, give a little less to charity, send a little more on myself, play hooky from work and go golfing.....". There is no man or woman who is perfect, so everyone can be judged harshly.....on something. The true tenets of Christianity are demanding, like I'm sure they are in Islam, even if different. Similar to the way you say this cretin is not Muslim, I say that the Priests who abused young boys were not Christian. At the same time, I can appreciate why someone looking from the outside would be confused by these statements and even why they would disagree. Most people do not fully understand their own religion, so expecting them to fully understand someone else's is unrealistic. At the end of it all, I believe it is about a person's 1-1 relationship with God and that only God can judge, so I make no effort to judge individuals about their relationship with God. I hope I never fall into that trap. When it comes to groups it gets complicated. Why did the Catholic church end up with so many pedophile priests? Could they really have been Catholics and done that? No. Not really. Can I see why someone might think Catholics, and priests in particular were to be looked at with trepidation? Yes. Did the Catholic church need to respond and does that response need to continue well into the future? Yes. In a similar way, people view Islam as a religion that has many terrorists associated with it. Can they really be Muslims and commit these acts? I'll take your word that the answer is no.....because it makes sense to me given what I have seen in people.....of any religion....in my experience in life. Can I see why someone might think Muslims were associated with terrorism and why some might be looked at with trepidation? My answer is yes, just like with Catholic priests. Do I think Islam needs to work hard now and in the future to shake that image? I do. That doesn't mean it is fair, but it is reality. It is sad to me that a good people seem to be is lumped into a group and judged. It is similar to the way some people feel about Catholic priests. Many of them are among the kindest and most loving people on Earth. To me, no INDIVIDUAL should be judged as worthy or unworthy in the eyes of God, except by God. Don't get me wrong, we need to be judged by the rules of man and murderers should not be walking the streets, but I make no claim to take God's place and judge the worth of someone's...anyone's.....soul. It gets so much more complicated when it comes to groups. Some groups are easy to judge. For example, the New England Patriots cheat and the Miami Dolphins suck. Easy. But most groups end up being judged by the actions of their members whether those memberships are "real" or "perceived". This is far more complicated, unfair and difficult to correct. The best place to start these corrections in perception, whether real, fictional, or a combination is always from within. Any correction from the outside will be resisted and frankly inappropriate. Someone from the outside saying "Islam needs to change this component of their faith or basic belief"....is terribly inappropriate. That same person saying "we need to stop these Muslim extremists" cannot be deemed inappropriate simply because that person might not understand everything about Islam. That is too high a standard to demand before accepting that someone wants the violence to end. Similarly, someone saying "Catholicism as a form of Christianity needs to be eliminated because priests are pedophiles"....is terribly wrong, while saying "something needs to be done to stop Catholics abusing children" can be understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 You've oversimplified Christianity quite a bit. And you've even answered some of your own questions about it earlier in the thread, although when you did you were speaking about Islam. I'm sure Islam is simpler and yet more complex than your average non-Muslim understands. I can appreciate that. It is also true that Christianity is simpler and yet more complex than the average non-Christian understands. Personally, although you may disagree, I think Christianity is simpler and yet more complex than the average Christian understands and would hazard a guess that Islam is simpler and yet more complex than the average Muslim understands. In my experience, all people have at some points in their life focused on their own interest and justified it within the context of their religion. Most of these are not harmful to others. "Why it is ok to have an extra cheeseburger, give a little less to charity, send a little more on myself, play hooky from work and go golfing.....". There is no man or woman who is perfect, so everyone can be judged harshly.....on something. The true tenets of Christianity are demanding, like I'm sure they are in Islam, even if different. Similar to the way you say this cretin is not Muslim, I say that the Priests who abused young boys were not Christian. At the same time, I can appreciate why someone looking from the outside would be confused by these statements and even why they would disagree. Most people do not fully understand their own religion, so expecting them to fully understand someone else's is unrealistic. At the end of it all, I believe it is about a person's 1-1 relationship with God and that only God can judge, so I make no effort to judge individuals about their relationship with God. I hope I never fall into that trap. When it comes to groups it gets complicated. Why did the Catholic church end up with so many pedophile priests? Could they really have been Catholics and done that? No. Not really. Can I see why someone might think Catholics, and priests in particular were to be looked at with trepidation? Yes. Did the Catholic church need to respond and does that response need to continue well into the future? Yes. In a similar way, people view Islam as a religion that has many terrorists associated with it. Can they really be Muslims and commit these acts? I'll take your word that the answer is no.....because it makes sense to me given what I have seen in people.....of any religion....in my experience in life. Can I see why someone might think Muslims were associated with terrorism and why some might be looked at with trepidation? My answer is yes, just like with Catholic priests. Do I think Islam needs to work hard now and in the future to shake that image? I do. That doesn't mean it is fair, but it is reality. It is sad to me that a good people seem to be is lumped into a group and judged. It is similar to the way some people feel about Catholic priests. Many of them are among the kindest and most loving people on Earth. To me, no INDIVIDUAL should be judged as worthy or unworthy in the eyes of God, except by God. Don't get me wrong, we need to be judged by the rules of man and murderers should not be walking the streets, but I make no claim to take God's place and judge the worth of someone's...anyone's.....soul. It gets so much more complicated when it comes to groups. Some groups are easy to judge. For example, the New England Patriots cheat and the Miami Dolphins suck. Easy. But most groups end up being judged by the actions of their members whether those memberships are "real" or "perceived". This is far more complicated, unfair and difficult to correct. The best place to start these corrections in perception, whether real, fictional, or a combination is always from within. Any correction from the outside will be resisted and frankly inappropriate. Someone from the outside saying "Islam needs to change this component of their faith or basic belief"....is terribly inappropriate. That same person saying "we need to stop these Muslim extremists" cannot be deemed inappropriate simply because that person might not understand everything about Islam. That is too high a standard to demand before accepting that someone wants the violence to end. Similarly, someone saying "Catholicism as a form of Christianity needs to be eliminated because priests are pedophiles"....is terribly wrong, while saying "something needs to be done to stop Catholics abusing children" can be understood. Well put. I enjoyed reading that very much. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Well put. I enjoyed reading that very much. Thanks. Yes, a color that Crayonz does paint somewhat often. Thumbs up for me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 I get a unique perspective being the only Muslim on the board here. I get to see which comments you come after and which ones you don't. A Donald Trump wannabe said the shooters whole family should be killed and nothing was said. I say these guys aren't true Muslims and that draws a reaction. Interesting. Here it is. He's a POS. Why bother giving him the credit of being more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) This wasn't terrorism: http://www.salon.com/2016/06/13/overcompensation_nation_its_time_to_admit_that_toxic_masculinity_drives_gun_violence/ Man, the headline made me laugh so hard. Then reading the article made me so disappointed that people actually believe this nonsense that I had to stop. Every time feminists talk about toxic masculinity, there is a chorus of whiny dudes who will immediately assume — or pretend to assume — that feminists are condemning all masculinity, even though the modifier “toxic” inherently suggests that there are forms of masculinity that are not toxic. The irony in this statement is so amazing. Edited June 15, 2016 by What a Tuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) I doubt it.Please share some of the causes for your doubt (that the government doesn't have us private citizens massively outgunned), seriously. Think of the Philadelphia Move bombing and the Branch Dravidians. Those were small time for the government side. Edited June 15, 2016 by reddogblitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) Please share some of the causes for your doubt (that the government doesn't have us private citizens massively outgunned), seriously. Think of the Philadelphia Move bombing and the Branch Dravidians. Those were small time for the government side. We have the most guns per capita of any country. If anyone stands a chance, we would (if we weren't too busy being content and lazy in this internet/entertainment age). Not sure if you are pro restricting guns, but I am not willing to give a government that has done those things even more control over me and eliminating their fear of retribution. It'll probably never happen, but it is a safeguard, and likely a safeguard the founding fathers put in place on purpose knowing what a tyrannical overbearing government could do seeing as how they were busy overthrowing one themselves. Edited June 15, 2016 by What a Tuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 You need to give it up too.... He's right, and you're a racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 What happened to them? Banned? I don't know about him but sitting in a beach in the British Virgin Islands is much better than talking with you morons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 We have the most guns per capita of any country. If anyone stands a chance, we would (if we weren't too busy being content and lazy in this internet/entertainment age). Not sure if you are pro restricting guns, but I am not willing to give a government that has done those things even more control over me and eliminating their fear of retribution. It'll probably never happen, but it is a safeguard, and likely a safeguard the founding fathers put in place on purpose knowing what a tyrannical overbearing government could do seeing as how they were busy overthrowing one themselves. Our founding fathers were wise beyond their time. I'm sure you heard (I'm paraphrasing) a government that fears it's citizens is freedom, people that fear their government is tyranny. IMO citizens should be able to own any weapon short of nuclear/chemical/biological devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Islam is a way of life. You have to practice it in order to be one. There are dozens of different versions of Christianity that are all very different. What's to say this violent group is not s sect of Islam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 He's right, and you're a racist. Always with the name calling here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 There are dozens of different versions of Christianity that are all very different. What's to say this violent group is not s sect of Islam? Of course. But "no true Christian" would ever sin against mankind or themselves. Just like "no true Muslim" would ever not be full of peace and love and kindness toward all mankind whether they be straight or gay, Christian or Muslim, or Jew. They're just the religion of tolerance from tip to toe. So you see it's not the religion that should be looked into at all. It's the practitioners who aren't "true" to their religion. You know, that means like, well... everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandius Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Man, the headline made me laugh so hard. Then reading the article made me so disappointed that people actually believe this nonsense that I had to stop. The irony in this statement is so amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Why do they make their women wear body bags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Let's agree to call this strain of terrorist "radical terrorists masquerading as Muslims". That should offend nobody. Now can we get to the business of wiping these !@#$s off the planet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Why do they make their women wear body bags? Freaking islamaphobe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted June 15, 2016 Author Share Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) Orlando shooting probe broadens to Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia... Mateen's twin trips to Saudi Arabia raise suspicions..Luxury hotels and meals... FBI: Gunman possibly targeted second Orlando bar... Wait........I thought the media has already decided on the "homophobic lone wolf" theory. That's what we were 'told' Edited June 15, 2016 by B-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandius Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Watch how many raise their hands https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEMHKO5MC6c&feature=youtu.be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) Please share some of the causes for your doubt (that the government doesn't have us private citizens massively outgunned), seriously. Think of the Philadelphia Move bombing and the Branch Dravidians. Those were small time for the government side. In the event of a mass revolt, any large scale weapons become unusuable and there is guaranteed mass defection of all US military personnel. They may have more powerful weapons, but they'll have no one to wield them. Thinking the government has us "outgunned" and that we could never beat them is the exact thinking the government wants. If it's hopeless, you'll take your orders meekly. Edited June 15, 2016 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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