Just so that people understand....regarding batted passes

[angryfan62]

Wouldn't "getting the arms down" constitute holding? Wouldn't they physically have to bring these arms down by grabbing them and pulling them down?

From what I understand if the D lineman tries to stop his rush and get his hands up the O lineman is to "block" (actually strike) with both hands to the midsection of D lineman. Hands come down quite quickly then.

[Reed83HOF]

Damn Reed....that is a lot

 

- First....and off the top. I am in no way not calling you a true bills fan.

- You say that we need a QB....but in our conversation the names came up of at least 3 QB's come up in the conversation......EJ Manuel does NOT have to become a top 5 QB in order for this team to win the Super Bowl

- The patriots are brought up.....but what teams have been a thorn in the patriots side.......The GIANTS.......and the JETS....never of those teams had top 5 QBs

 

Ugh 14+ years of frustration...it has worn me out

 

Plus this place either you hate a guy or you love him. Honestly I'm indifferent on EJ; I just want to win baby

 

I never said you were John Just felt like I needed to get that out there...ugh what a complainer I have become

 

Honestly, I don't want just a Super Bowl win and fade away like almost all do now....I just don't want a goal of the playoffs; honestly what is the point? Oooh we made the playoffs...meh. If we get to the playoffs I want to win and not be a sacrificial lamb....

 

We started a tradition in the 90s that the SB goes through the us and we need to get back to that. That is what we as fans deserve; the Buffalo region deserves and this team needs to carry on that tradition and bring us back to being winners & relevant....

 

The Pats* always make it deep and they will as long as they have Brady. A great QB always gets you far, he does it consistently and he makes up for other holes in your team (Manning & the Colts). Yes you can have a team with great players and an okay QB, but those are the ones that fade away...we deserve more than that

[Sig1Hunter]

 

 

Wrong.

EJ stared down all of his receivers, so badly, that if you go and look at his last batted pass, the defender dropped away from his rush and was able to get his hands up to knock EJs pass down.

 

Since when is throwing to your first read "staring down your receiver"? Its a quick slant pattern. If its open you throw it. There is no "looking off a safety" on a three step slant. The o-line know the play, or they should, so they need to keep the d-lines hands down. Some people are making this a lot more complicated than it should be. That deep ball to MW was a thing of beauty, and is enough to encourage me about EJ going into Carolina.

[Don Beebe]

In fact, what we saw was the Giants leave their starting offense in an extra series so they could make up for being so bad the first two, followed by leaving their #2's in for a good while after the Bills had switched to their 3's.

 

Both Giants TDs happened while they were mismatching strings against the Bills.

This is what I noticed. Also EJ did not play enough to settle down and get into a groove. Give him a little more time and I think he will be alright.

[ALF]

Just put EJ in the shotgun to get a pass off that much quicker. This OL is new and struggles. If they can't run for 200+ yards with 4 good RBs

[Wayne Cubed]

Since when is throwing to your first read "staring down your receiver"? Its a quick slant pattern. If its open you throw it. There is no "looking off a safety" on a three step slant. The o-line know the play, or they should, so they need to keep the d-lines hands down. Some people are making this a lot more complicated than it should be. That deep ball to MW was a thing of beauty, and is enough to encourage me about EJ going into Carolina.

 

Exactly.

 

Maybe we should use pictures to illustrate the point?

 

Here's the play were Sammy was running a quick slant. Manuel is in the shot gun, does a quick 3-step drop and looks to Sammy, who is wide open.

 

Ball is hiked, notice the time on the clock. Also, as you can see there is no safety in the picture. He's basically playing center fielder, so there is no reason to "look off" the safety:

 

This is 2 seconds later, as Manuel has completed his drop, looks to his first read, who is wide open. He's wide open, so there is no need to look anyone off. Urbik, has not engaged Kiwanuka, so he is free to do what he wants. Which is bat down the ball.

[GunnerBill]

I don't want just a Super Bowl win and fade away like almost all do now....

 

Reed your passion spills out in your posts and I think a lot understand your frustration. I've been a Bills fan since 2002 and we haven't even been to the play-offs in that time... I'm kinda sick of the hoping as well.... but honestly the bit of your post I've quoted...... I might sell members of my family for that..... I wouldn't care if we faded away for another 14 years afterwards.... the Bills WIN a Superbowl (by domination or by fluke I wouldn't mind)?? That would keep me going for about 20 years I think

 

 

Disclaimer: I wouldn't actually sell members of my family...... or I don't think I would....

[angryfan62]

Exactly.

 

Maybe we should use pictures to illustrate the point?

 

Here's the play were Sammy was running a quick slant. Manuel is in the shot gun, does a quick 3-step drop and looks to Sammy, who is wide open.

 

Ball is hiked, notice the time on the clock. Also, as you can see there is no safety in the picture. He's basically playing center fielder, so there is no reason to "look off" the safety:

 

This is 2 seconds later, as Manuel has completed his drop, looks to his first read, who is wide open. He's wide open, so there is no need to look anyone off. Urbik, has not engaged Kiwanuka, so he is free to do what he wants. Which is bat down the ball.

Thanks, well done.

[Ronin]

People do realize that most of the time (not always but most) that batted down passes are on the O line and not the QB?

 

Offensive linemen are taught to get the arms down of defensive linemen on pass plays....its football 101.

 

I didnt like the almost int that EJ through last night (although...lets be real...LOTS of good QB's throw almost int's).....but for some reason people are blaming EJ for the batted passes as well.

 

How the hell's an offensive lineman supposed to get the arms of a LB that's 10 yards away down? ... or a DE that's dropped into coverage?

 

Otherwise, when the ball's thrown at helmet/head level, I don't think that arms are an issue.

Edited August 5, 2014 by TaskersGhost

[Kellyto83TD]

Your argument would hold water if he wasnt' staring down the WR from the snap AND his release point was too low. But other than those FACTS, I am sure you have a point

[billsfan_34]

Some is on lineman, some is on the QB to find passing lanes. EJ gets so locked on a receiver that he sees nothing else. Not to mention, all the things he was knacked on in college we are seeing now. Do I want him to succeed, heck yeah! That being said I just really have my doubts and remain skeptical.

[Campy]

Having first met him when he was a high school freshman at Bayside, nobody is pulling for EJ more than me.

 

And it's true the OL needs to do what they can to keep the DL's hands down. But it's also true the QB has some responsibility to avoid batted-down passes such as changing delivery, stepping to one side or another, or moving to another target.

 

This pissing contest about blaming the OL or the QB is inane.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Campy

[GG]

Well at least you have an open mind. A lot of smart people make judgements after 1 season.

 

Moulds is a bust!

 

That's not a proper comparison, because Moulds was much more NFL ready than EJ is. He played very well when he was on the field and given the opportunities. But since Marv wanted to teach him a lesson, he rarely saw the field in his first two years. Things miraculously changed with a new coaching staff. Totally different circumstance.

[Reed83HOF]

Reed your passion spills out in your posts and I think a lot understand your frustration. I've been a Bills fan since 2002 and we haven't even been to the play-offs in that time... I'm kinda sick of the hoping as well.... but honestly the bit of your post I've quoted...... I might sell members of my family for that..... I wouldn't care if we faded away for another 14 years afterwards.... the Bills WIN a Superbowl (by domination or by fluke I wouldn't mind)?? That would keep me going for about 20 years I think

 

 

Disclaimer: I wouldn't actually sell members of my family...... or I don't think I would....

 

LOL trust me after being the 2nd winningest team int he 90s and barely winning in the next 15 years. Even if we won 1 SB; it would be irrelevant for sucking so bad for so long...

[GunnerBill]

But what a hell of a party......... I think I'd be drunk for a month.

[Kellyto83TD]

To be followed by...

 

They were just preseason games.

 

It's only been a couple of regular season games.

 

We're only halfway through the season.

 

He was injured for part of the season, wait until you see what he does next year.

 

Wait Wut? We have never heard those excuses before... I mean if you dont' include...

 

Todd Collins

Billy Joe Hobag

RJ

JP

Trent

Fitz....

Edited August 5, 2014 by Kellyto83TD

[CountDorkula]

Wait Wut? We have never heard those excuses before... I mean if you dont' include...

 

Todd Collins

Billy Joe Hobag

RJ

JP

Trent

Fitz....

 

Can you please tell me what those QB's have to do with EJ. I would love you to try to tie this together!!

 

Next please tell me we should only draft an ole Miss QB because Eli Manning went to Ole Miss and he won 2 superbowl.

 

I just love irrelevant data so much!!!

 

Your argument would hold water if he wasnt' staring down the WR from the snap AND his release point was too low. But other than those FACTS, I am sure you have a point

 

Can you provide eveidence to back up those facts. you know like pictures like Wayne provided showing his release point VS say Rodgers, Brady or Manning. Next please show me evidence of a 5esecond + stare down of a wr.

[Agent 91]

 

 

Wrong.

 

EJ stared down all of his receivers, so badly, that if you go and look at his last batted pass, the defender dropped away from his rush and was able to get his hands up to knock EJs pass down. He actually just stopped rushing on the play it was that bad. The offensive lineman(not sure who it was) almost fell forward a little... what should he have done? it's not football 101 in any way, in fact, it's called holding. Further evidence of EJs inability to look anyone off was his near INT. It was so bad that the linebacker didn't even have to watch the route. Sorry pal, EJs flaws are entirely his own, and 100% due to his play.

 

That is your opinion and you can have it.

[CBD]

Wouldn't "getting the arms down" constitute holding? Wouldn't they physically have to bring these arms down by grabbing them and pulling them down?

If you're engaged with him his hands will not be up. If he jumps it leaves his middle open to being hit which will quickly bring his hands down or leave him open to being driven into the ground.

 

Urbik likely got scolded because of the play, as well as Manuel. It doesn't have to be an either/or.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Carey Bender

[Ronin]

Can you please tell me what those QB's have to do with EJ. I would love you to try to tie this together!!

 

Uhh, I think that anyone understands what he said.

 

The same excuses are conveniently recycled from season to season.

 

Notice how they're saying about Manuel that he looked "calm and under control" or something like that, formerly known as "poised."

 

Problem is that "poised" wore out its welcome during Edwards brief tenure here. That word here associated with Manuel would be more associated with negatives than positives.

 

We can argue and bicker amongst each other, but it's clear that Manuel was a terrible draft pick and that he's going nowhere in the NFL now. The only difference is that some see that now while it's going to take it being completely obvious after the fact, like it was with Fitzpatrick and Edwards too, before they figure it out.

[Agent 91]

 

 

Every D lineman in every game has his hands up at some point when the QB is dropping back. One of the tallest QBs has to see what's right in front of him (ober and over). Roll out, pump fake....something. The O-linemen can't get away with holding on every play...

 

It's not a hold. As soon as that d lineman jumps you are supposed to be there to jam him and knock him off balance or flatten his butt. A good lineman will not allow a man to jump get his arms up and land back on his feet. Was the batted pass on EJ? If you want it to be, sure. But like JFH said, it's OL 101. Let me ask you this. Why do you think there aren't 4 linemen jumping you bat down balls every play? It's it not because they don't have balance and their foot timing is messed up. The o line is supposed to be creating throwing lanes. Regardless if what the qb does with it.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Agent 91

[BUFFALOTONE]

People do realize that most of the time (not always but most) that batted down passes are on the O line and not the QB?

 

Offensive linemen are taught to get the arms down of defensive linemen on pass plays....its football 101.

 

I didnt like the almost int that EJ through last night (although...lets be real...LOTS of good QB's throw almost int's).....but for some reason people are blaming EJ for the batted passes as well.

 

I played OL at a pretty decent level and was never taught to grab a guys arms, its called holding. If a defender sees its a quick set by the QB he will back up and try to get in the lane, normally on a 3 step drop you cut the lineman at the knees to open that lane.

Edited August 5, 2014 by BUFFALOTONE

[GunnerBill]

It's not clear. 10 career starts doesn't make anything objectively clear.

[Agent 91]

Does that count the 3rd one where the defender in a vanilla preseason scheme did nothing on the play except drop back away from the online and react to EJs throw?

 

No I already can concede that was a bad read and bad pass. He was trying to force feed Watkins. I think he just wanted him to touch the ball in pre-season

[BUFFALOTONE]

 

 

And he was right 6 times. Day one of offensive linemen school: defensive linemen puts his hands up, take their feet out.

 

But I'm assuming you didn't play football at any level. You strike me more as a debate guy.

 

 

 

It's silly isn't it? I have no idea how good EJ will be but it's kinda sickening how some fans have no patience. QB might be the hardest position in all of sports. It's takes time.

 

Thankfully, I think EJ is a lot more mature than some of the fans who freak out after every pass.

That's correct Biscuit but not what John said, he said to grab the DLs arms. You have to cut him down, but if he reads it and doesn't rush there isn't much the OL man can do.

[voodoo poonani]

And what about the LB who read EJs eyes while he stared down Sammy? How is that the OL's fault?

[Agent 91]

sometimes I wonder what game people are watching.

 

The JPP swat was NOT on Henderson. He handled JPP that play, JPP took a drop step when he realized he wasn't getting any push. EJ threw it right at him...EJ's fault.

 

2nd swat was on Urbik.

 

Williams's near TD...tough to catch anything when the DB has your inside arm hooked.

 

Am I alone in seeing how dominant Stefan Charles was? Dude was in the backfield every play.

 

You are not alone. The other guy. I want to say Corbin Bryant? (have to rewatch for the name) Was making plays as well. I think the DT spot looks great.

 

 

Correction: his name was Landon Cohen

Edited August 6, 2014 by Agent 91

[Vermontbill]

Also Sammy is going to find that he is exposed at Press coverage, they are going to bump him at the line and he is going to be off his route. EJ and the staff have to recognize that, as that is the game plan for speed, whether its Sammy or anyone else.

[John from Riverside]

I played OL at a pretty decent level and was never taught to grab a guys arms, its called holding. If a defender sees its a quick set by the QB he will back up and try to get in the lane, normally on a 3 step drop you cut the lineman at the knees to open that lane.

 

At no point in any post I have made in this thread have I said that the OL should hold the DL......not one

 

You can reach out and "punch" the defender.......which will bring his hands down to get his balance or he might fall over......

 

And two of those batted passes the defender was not that far away

 

And what about the LB who read EJs eyes while he stared down Sammy? How is that the OL's fault?

 

Its not....read more

 

That's correct Biscuit but not what John said, he said to grab the DLs arms. You have to cut him down, but if he reads it and doesn't rush there isn't much the OL man can do.

 

Please show me where I said to grab the DL's arms.....

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

That's not a proper comparison, because Moulds was much more NFL ready than EJ is. He played very well when he was on the field and given the opportunities. But since Marv wanted to teach him a lesson, he rarely saw the field in his first two years. Things miraculously changed with a new coaching staff. Totally different circumstance.

 

Moulds has less than 300 yards his second year as well. Perhaps he wasn't as NFL ready as you remember? http://m.pfref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXMXXMoulEr00.htm&t=0

[BUFFALOTONE]

 

 

At no point in any post I have made in this thread have I said that the OL should hold the DL......not one

 

You can reach out and "punch" the defender.......which will bring his hands down to get his balance or he might fall over......

 

And two of those batted passes the defender was not that far away

 

 

 

Its not....read more

 

 

 

Please show me where I said to grab the DL's arms.....

 

"Offensive linemen are taught to get the arms down of defensive linemen on pass plays....its football 101."

 

I took this as holding as the only other way to do this is chopping the DL on a short drop. If the DL disengages and reads the play it is not the OLs fault. On short drops your cut the player, that's football 101 or OL 101. My guess is they didn't want to do that in preseason. You can "punch" a guy in the chest but not sure its going to bring his arms down, especially if hes backing off the line. It happens and its not really a concern to me. But Marrone not wanting to put that on his QB is questionable IMO. You're not wrong but the explanation was confusing.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

"Offensive linemen are taught to get the arms down of defensive linemen on pass plays....its football 101."

 

I took this as holding as the only other way to do this is chopping the DL on a short drop. If the DL disengages and reads the play it is not the OLs fault. On short drops your cut the player, that's football 101 or OL 101. My guess is they didn't want to do that in preseason. You can "punch" a guy in the chest but not sure its going to bring his arms down, especially if hes backing off the line. It happens and its not really a concern to me. But Marrone not wanting to put that on his QB is questionable IMO. You're not wrong but the explanation was confusing.

 

You get the hell out of here with actual football talk.

[MDH]

It's not clear. 10 career starts doesn't make anything objectively clear.

 

Simply not true, he's obviously a bust. I've read so here. Batted passes at the LoS equal bust city.

[John from Riverside]

"Offensive linemen are taught to get the arms down of defensive linemen on pass plays....its football 101."

 

I took this as holding as the only other way to do this is chopping the DL on a short drop. If the DL disengages and reads the play it is not the OLs fault. On short drops your cut the player, that's football 101 or OL 101. My guess is they didn't want to do that in preseason. You can "punch" a guy in the chest but not sure its going to bring his arms down, especially if hes backing off the line. It happens and its not really a concern to me. But Marrone not wanting to put that on his QB is questionable IMO. You're not wrong but the explanation was confusing.

 

I actually say Cyrus K. trying to do the cutting technique several times (it dismayed me as he looked so awkward doing it)

 

Jamie Nails had a pass protection punch that is so strong that it injured another player just from that

 

When I played (and coached) the idea was to "punch" not in the chest but a little lower....and force the D linemen to defend himself and not want to extend his wingspan to go for a ball