dave mcbride Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 It's so easy to say that now. Could you tell after his 3rd season when he threw 15 tds, 17 ints? Of course Manuel won't be as good as Kelly. Very few QBs are. But people who can say one way or another at this point are full of it. The thing is, while Kelly didn't have a great season, the Bills offense was actually pretty solid that year (12th overall) and they threw the seventh fewest INTs in the league. So it's simply not a good comparison. The team went 12-4. The Bills passer rating that year was 78.5 overall, but their D gave up a 73.2 rating. Comparing 2013 and 1988 is literally apples and oranges. Marino threw 23 INTs that season, and Vinnie T threw 35. Elway had 17 TDs and 19 INTs that season. Counting stats for QBs are way more elevated now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 If Bridgewater or Manziel are around when we pick, then take one of them. Not sure if Clowney will slide to us or not.... Bridgewater absolutely.He's the best in this draft class by a mile , and if somehow you had a shot at him you take it. Manziel or any other QB in the 1st round? No. I hope EJM can be good enough to get this team to the playoffs with some better players at WR and TE, and probably another LB. I'm pretty confident he will be nowhere near as good as Jim Kelly. That is not a stretch, with Jimbo being a HOF'er and all. You knew the guy was rare as soon as you watched his first game as a Bill, even though it was a loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastie Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 I hope i am wrong, and happily for all concerned i am wrong all the #$%%$%@ time...but nonetheless, it is hard to imagine EJ making most of these plays. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvCqe0ulFWw Oh what bittersweet memories are those. I forgot how enjoyable it was to watch Reed and Metzelaars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 The rules are WAY more in favor of QBs now, and yet EJ still can't out play QBs of yesteryear. Pretty telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 The rules are WAY more in favor of QBs now, and yet EJ still can't out play QBs of yesteryear. Pretty telling. As has been repeated over and over again, Kelly was 26 and had 2 seasons of pro ball before his "rookie" year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubes Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 The rules are WAY more in favor of QBs now, and yet EJ as a rookie still can't out play future Hall-of-Fame QBs of yesteryear. Pretty telling. There, fixed it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 The thing is, while Kelly didn't have a great season, the Bills offense was actually pretty solid that year (12th overall) and they threw the seventh fewest INTs in the league. So it's simply not a good comparison. The team went 12-4. The Bills passer rating that year was 78.5 overall, but their D gave up a 73.2 rating. Comparing 2013 and 1988 is literally apples and oranges. Marino threw 23 INTs that season, and Vinnie T threw 35. Elway had 17 TDs and 19 INTs that season. Counting stats for QBs are way more elevated now. When has throwing more ints than tds ever been ok? Basically, you just made the chance that despite Kelly's turnover problems, the Bills had a ton of talent to overcome that. Would this board have been happy with Kelly's play? Again, I was pretty young but I remember there were people thinking Reich should be the starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) When has throwing more ints than tds ever been ok? Basically, you just made the chance that despite Kelly's turnover problems, the Bills had a ton of talent to overcome that. Would this board have been happy with Kelly's play? Again, I was pretty young but I remember there were people thinking Reich should be the starter. Ever look at Joe Namath's stats or QB stats from the 1960s/1970s more generally? We're talking 50 percent completion rates with more INTs than TDs on a regular basis even for the top QBs. For his first eight seasons, John Elway threw exactly as many TDs as INTs. To wit: http://www.pro-footb.../B/BradTe00.htm http://www.pro-footb.../S/StabKe00.htm http://www.pro-footb.../U/UnitJo00.htm http://www.pro-footb.../E/ElwaJo00.htm http://www.pro-footb.../N/NamaJo00.htm http://www.pro-footb.../F/FoutDa00.htm http://www.pro-footb.../S/StarBa00.htm Edited December 10, 2013 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 This board is slipping - 4 pages and nobody has compared him to Edwards 08 yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Ever look at Joe Namath's stats or QB stats from the 1960s/1970s more generally? We're talking 50 percent completion rates with more INTs than TDs on a regular basis even for the top QBs. Fair point. But if Joe Namath doesn't win that SB, does he get in the HOF? I think it's doubtful and plenty of his contemporaries didn't throw more ints than tds. Again, I'm not comparing Kelly to Manuel because that's foolish. But I just don't think a 3rd year, 28 year old QB throwing more ints than td would have gone over so well here if this board existed. It shows like the Bills won inspite of Kelly that year. The defense was 3rd in points and 4th in yards. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/1988.htm If the 2013 Bills had that defense, they would have a few more wins this year and be challenging for the playoffs. Thus, less posters would be calling for Manuel's job, even if he had the same exact stats. IT's wrong but most people lump team's success into determining how good a QB is. Kelly was allowed to make mistakes that year because he had a great defense. Manuel has had an improved but middle of the road defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) Fair point. But if Joe Namath doesn't win that SB, does he get in the HOF? I think it's doubtful and plenty of his contemporaries didn't throw more ints than tds. Again, I'm not comparing Kelly to Manuel because that's foolish. But I just don't think a 3rd year, 28 year old QB throwing more ints than td would have gone over so well here if this board existed. It shows like the Bills won inspite of Kelly that year. The defense was 3rd in points and 4th in yards. http://www.pro-footb...ms/buf/1988.htm If the 2013 Bills had that defense, they would have a few more wins this year and be challenging for the playoffs. Thus, less posters would be calling for Manuel's job, even if he had the same exact stats. IT's wrong but most people lump team's success into determining how good a QB is. Kelly was allowed to make mistakes that year because he had a great defense. Manuel has had an improved but middle of the road defense. See my fleshed out post above. Also, the Bills threw the SEVENTH FEWEST INTs in 1988. Edited December 10, 2013 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Thanks for the video...brings back some great timea.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 It also wasn't Kelly's rookie year. Brett Favre was traded for nothing after his rookie year. Drew Breew was allowed to become a free agent after his rookie contract. Brady and Rodgers were burried on the depth chart their rookie year. I'd love to see this list of QBs who you could just tell we're franchise QBs their first year? Troy Aikman? Flacco? Nope, he was nearly run out of town his second season. Big Ben, try again, couldn't even win the starting job in preseason to a nobody. So really who? Manning? Not Eli. This you just know thing is stupid. The game is all about confidence, hard work and some physical attributes. The ones who succeed seem to have an over abundance of the first two... And that has ALWAYS been true. Remember one of Elway's first games. He lined up over the guard to take a snap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 See my fleshed out post above. Also, the Bills threw the SEVENTH FEWEST INTs in 1988. You're right that all passing stats are a different animal now. Marino throw for 5,000 when he did is probably equal to him throwing for 7,000 now. Same with the sacks and receiving records. So let's simply compared their rookie year team offense output. The 2013 Bills are 25th in points and 23th in yards. Kelly's rookie year Bills were 20th in points and 19th in yards. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/ Better but hardly the K Gun. And he was 26 and with 2 seasons of pro ball under his belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) When has throwing more ints than tds ever been ok? Basically, you just made the chance that despite Kelly's turnover problems, the Bills had a ton of talent to overcome that. Would this board have been happy with Kelly's play? Again, I was pretty young but I remember there were people thinking Reich should be the starter. Brother, people wanted Todd Collins to stayn when he replaced Kelly for a few games... Edited December 10, 2013 by plenzmd1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 I hope i am wrong, and happily for all concerned i am wrong all the #$%%$%@ time...but nonetheless, it is hard to imagine EJ making most of these plays. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvCqe0ulFWw It really is a stark contrast when watching that. Even besides the passes themselves, the poise of Jim was amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 You're right that all passing stats are a different animal now. Marino throw for 5,000 when he did is probably equal to him throwing for 7,000 now. Same with the sacks and receiving records. So let's simply compared their rookie year team offense output. The 2013 Bills are 25th in points and 23th in yards. Kelly's rookie year Bills were 20th in points and 19th in yards. http://www.pro-footb....com/teams/buf/ Better but hardly the K Gun. And he was 26 and with 2 seasons of pro ball under his belt. I would say 6000 now. And in a few more years it will probably happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Looking back at at Kelly's first year is, IMO, glorified hindsight. Sure, you can say you knew he was going to be good because the guys in the hall of fame now. I'm sure if you ask any fan they'll all say "yea, I definitely saw the talent." And seeing as the internet wasn't around back then, we have no way of disputing that. There were legitimate fans calling for Reich to start in his first couple years, so obviously it wasn't consensus with his talent by some fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Front Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Jack Kemp used to throw way more INT's than TD's and he was considered a good QB back in the day. His stats are atrocious by today's standards, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 This is dumb. Comparing stats of qbs is dumb. Stats do not make a franchise qb. Jimbo was the unquestioned leader from day one. EJ is just trying to fit in and get by and improve. Jimbo was trying his heart out to make plays all over the field. EJ is trying not to mess up Jimbo was trying to be the greatest QB in history, from day one. EJ is trying to do his best or something. You can tell when you have a real franchise QB, even in his rookie year. And you can usually tell when you dont. If Jimbo was the unquestioned leader from day one, how did the "Bickering Bills" come about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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