Bills All 22

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

 

That was not a complicated play by any stretch of the imagination.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

It was complicated because there were 3 reads and a short time and distance to make the right one. In reality and this isn't to knock him, if Thad had run that play, he would have seen his first read covered, and then taken a sack (and probably have fumbled the ball). Tuel should have done the same thing (minus the fumble); 1st read covered = hold on to the ball. None of the QB's on the roster would have gone through the progressions to make the right throw to Stevie.

[l< j]

What's weird is that EJ himself has never run such a complicated play down near the goal line. It's always been fades, boots, one-option plays for EJ. But Hackett has a play where Tuel has 3 options, and is criticized because he didn't go to option No. 3 (with a defender about to sack him). Bad play call.

 

No, he is being criticized because he went to the first option, even though there was a guy in a bright red jersey standing between him and the receiver. Maybe he doesn't have the experience to see Stevie. I get that. But that doesn't mean the only other option was to throw it to the covered receiver.

 

kj

[34-78-83]

It was complicated because there were 3 reads and a short time and distance to make the right one. In reality and this isn't to knock him, if Thad had run that play, he would have seen his first read covered, and then taken a sack (and probably have fumbled the ball). Tuel should have done the same thing (minus the fumble); 1st read covered = hold on to the ball. None of the QB's on the roster would have gone through the progressions to make the right throw to Stevie.

I think that's a stretch but you're certainly entitled to the opinion.... I do believe there are a lot of Bills plays with Run / Pass option built in as I recall EJ talking about them while he was out there earlier this year.

[Cash]

It was complicated because there were 3 reads and a short time and distance to make the right one. In reality and this isn't to knock him, if Thad had run that play, he would have seen his first read covered, and then taken a sack (and probably have fumbled the ball). Tuel should have done the same thing (minus the fumble); 1st read covered = hold on to the ball. None of the QB's on the roster would have gone through the progressions to make the right throw to Stevie.

 

Don't have time to scour the internet at present, but from what breakdowns of the Bills' offense I've read, EJ has absolutely had to make those same kind of reads, dating back to the preseason. I remember one preseason breakdown detailing a packaged play we ran 3-4 times with EJ where there were 4 or 5 different options, including both passes & runs.

[K-9]

It was complicated because there were 3 reads and a short time and distance to make the right one. In reality and this isn't to knock him, if Thad had run that play, he would have seen his first read covered, and then taken a sack (and probably have fumbled the ball). Tuel should have done the same thing (minus the fumble); 1st read covered = hold on to the ball. None of the QB's on the roster would have gone through the progressions to make the right throw to Stevie.

 

We'll just agree to disagree about what constitutes a "complicated" play. It was practiced during the week and they had success with it, according to Stevie.

 

As to the bold text, I simply don't know how you can make that claim. It's unknowable until another QB is in that situation and I would doubt that Hackett calls the same play again, anyway.

 

Bottom line is that that play was never designed to go to the slot. Ever. You can't throw to the slot out of that formation against that defensive alignment.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

 

 

Don't have time to scour the internet at present, but from what breakdowns of the Bills' offense I've read, EJ has absolutely had to make those same kind of reads, dating back to the preseason. I remember one preseason breakdown detailing a packaged play we ran 3-4 times with EJ where there were 4 or 5 different options, including both passes & runs.

 

There wasn't enough time for anyone to make that read to Stevie. Tuel was getting hit when he was throwing to his first read.

[l< j]

There wasn't enough time for anyone to make that read to Stevie. Tuel was getting hit when he was throwing to his first read.

 

The DL was 2 yards away when he released; see shot 5 in the Buffalo Rumblings breakdown linked above. Not being hit. More importantly, there was plenty of time to see that his receiver was not open. Throw it away.

 

kj

[26CornerBlitz]

The DL was 2 yards away when he released; see shot 5 in the Buffalo Rumblings breakdown linked above. Not being hit. More importantly, there was plenty of time to see that his receiver was not open. Throw it away.

 

kj

 

Tuel definitely had time to let the play develop in order to consider other options.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

The DL was 2 yards away when he released; see shot 5 in the Buffalo Rumblings breakdown linked above. Not being hit. More importantly, there was plenty of time to see that his receiver was not open. Throw it away.

 

kj

Tuel definitely had time to let the play develop in order to consider other options.

 

Okay, I just re-watched it, and you guys are probably right. hehe.

 

Looked like Tuel just stared down Graham, who, by the way, was open on that play. Had Smith gone with SJ, would have been a TD. Tuel just didn't see Smith, or saw him peripherally and figured Smith was going with Stevie--a perfectly reasonable assumption.

 

The thing is, I can't really even fault Tuel for that throw. Graham was open; if he waits for Smith to vacate the area, it's too late to go to Graham. If he waits, then maybe the rusher gets to him or SJ isn't open. In a certain sense, Tuel trusted the defenders would do what they were supposed to do, and got screwed over by a broken play. The Chiefs just got lucky more than anything.

[26CornerBlitz]

JW: All-22 Review Week 9 - Bills/Chiefs: http://www.wgr550.com/JW--All-22-Review-Week-9---Bills-Chiefs/17694609

 

Until further review, it's the play of the year. You know the play. Jeremy White's All-22 Review takes a look at Sean Smith's 100 yard interception return for a TD, the play of newcomer Stefan Charles, and debuts KIKO-CAM.

 

Sometimes it's just not fair.

[eball]

Okay, I just re-watched it, and you guys are probably right. hehe.

 

Looked like Tuel just stared down Graham, who, by the way, was open on that play. Had Smith gone with SJ, would have been a TD. Tuel just didn't see Smith, or saw him peripherally and figured Smith was going with Stevie--a perfectly reasonable assumption.

 

The thing is, I can't really even fault Tuel for that throw. Graham was open; if he waits for Smith to vacate the area, it's too late to go to Graham. If he waits, then maybe the rusher gets to him or SJ isn't open. In a certain sense, Tuel trusted the defenders would do what they were supposed to do, and got screwed over by a broken play. The Chiefs just got lucky more than anything.

 

While I commend you for admitting your error, Tuel in no way "got screwed over by a broken play" -- he had time to survey the field and had he done so, rather than throwing a blind pass, he would have either thrown it away or found a wide open SJ.

 

And yes, KC got somewhat lucky. It appears they are this year's Colts.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

While I commend you for admitting your error, Tuel in no way "got screwed over by a broken play" -- he had time to survey the field and had he done so, rather than throwing a blind pass, he would have either thrown it away or found a wide open SJ.

 

And yes, KC got somewhat lucky. It appears they are this year's Colts.

 

I think the issue is as a QB, you're not supposed to be looking at the defender, but you need to sense the defender and make sure he's not going to be there. I am sure Tuel saw Smith peripherally, but assumed he was going to vacate the area. He can't make that assumption. Tuel needed to be safer with the ball there; if it's not wide open, then eat it.

[fergie's ire]

I think that the question is: Did the defender blow his coverage...or did he recognize that Tuel does not look off defenders...that he stares down his intended receiver, so that a defender can ignore his assignment and just go where Tuel is looking?

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

JW: All-22 Review Week 9 - Bills/Chiefs: http://www.wgr550.co...Chiefs/17694609

 

Until further review, it's the play of the year. You know the play. Jeremy White's All-22 Review takes a look at Sean Smith's 100 yard interception return for a TD, the play of newcomer Stefan Charles, and debuts KIKO-CAM.

 

Sometimes it's just not fair.

 

It makes me very depressed seeing the Tuel interception over and over again. It's got to make Tuel feel sick to his stomach.

 

Another great analysis by JW; these articles are the highlight of the week.

[goynahan]

It makes me very depressed seeing the Tuel interception over and over again. It's got to make Tuel feel sick to his stomach.

 

Another great analysis by JW; these articles are the highlight of the week.

 

Just thinking the same thing. When I watched the replay and saw how open Stevie was it felt like I got punched in the stomach, I cant imagine how Tuel felt when he saw that. I also felt an extreme level of anger and hate toward Tuel, which I didn't feel until I saw the replay.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Just thinking the same thing. When I watched the replay and saw how open Stevie was it felt like I got punched in the stomach, I cant imagine how Tuel felt when he saw that. I also felt an extreme level of anger and hate toward Tuel, which I didn't feel until I saw the replay.

 

I had more pity toward Tuel than anything. I developed hate for Smith; no justice to be rewarded for incompetence like that.

[Cash]

Just thinking the same thing. When I watched the replay and saw how open Stevie was it felt like I got punched in the stomach, I cant imagine how Tuel felt when he saw that. I also felt an extreme level of anger and hate toward Tuel, which I didn't feel until I saw the replay.

 

I can't stop watching replays of that play, and every time I watch it, it kills me how wide-open Stevie is. Any kind of throw to the middle of the endzone -- even all the way at the back of the endzone -- produces a TD. Aaagh.

 

I don't think I've ever said anything positive about Jeff Tuel, but I don't feel any anger or hate towards him. If anything, pity. Poor Jeff Tuel. He is who he is. I don't think it's fair to ask him to be a competent NFL QB, especially as a rookie. I don't necessarily kill Hackett for calling a pass or even that play, although I will continue to endlessly kill Hackett for having ANY play, much less a critical play, where TJ Graham is the QB's first read. If it's a clutch situation, that is the last guy we should be throwing to.

[K-9]

Unfathomable that Tuel missed that.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[goynahan]

I can't stop watching replays of that play, and every time I watch it, it kills me how wide-open Stevie is. Any kind of throw to the middle of the endzone -- even all the way at the back of the endzone -- produces a TD. Aaagh.

 

I don't think I've ever said anything positive about Jeff Tuel, but I don't feel any anger or hate towards him. If anything, pity. Poor Jeff Tuel. He is who he is. I don't think it's fair to ask him to be a competent NFL QB, especially as a rookie. I don't necessarily kill Hackett for calling a pass or even that play, although I will continue to endlessly kill Hackett for having ANY play, much less a critical play, where TJ Graham is the QB's first read. If it's a clutch situation, that is the last guy we should be throwing to.

 

That's how I felt about Tuel as well before watching the replay - that he is who he is, that he was put in a tough spot, that I shouldn't expect much of anything from him, etc. etc. But I couldn't help but want to punch him in the face after watching the replay. It goes against what I logically think about him and the whole situation but it's just the natural response I have to seeing it again.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I can't stop watching replays of that play, and every time I watch it, it kills me how wide-open Stevie is. Any kind of throw to the middle of the endzone -- even all the way at the back of the endzone -- produces a TD. Aaagh.

 

I don't think I've ever said anything positive about Jeff Tuel, but I don't feel any anger or hate towards him. If anything, pity. Poor Jeff Tuel. He is who he is. I don't think it's fair to ask him to be a competent NFL QB, especially as a rookie. I don't necessarily kill Hackett for calling a pass or even that play, although I will continue to endlessly kill Hackett for having ANY play, much less a critical play, where TJ Graham is the QB's first read. If it's a clutch situation, that is the last guy we should be throwing to.

 

Agreed on Graham.

 

I think the feeling we all are feeling is a profound sense of dumbfoundedness. We want to direct our anger, rage, sadness, depression, pity to something or someone, but can't figure out exactly who should get it all-- Tuel, Hackett, Graham, Smith, EJ, Thad, Fred and CJ (for not scoring)? I actually keep watching the play, hoping that Tuel goes to Stevie, or that someone makes the tackle on the pick.

[Boatdrinks]

 

Bottom line is that that play was never designed to go to the slot. Ever. You can't throw to the slot out of that formation against that defensive alignment.

 

GO BILLS!!!

There was nothing special about that defense.It was man coverage across the board, you throw it to whoever beats his man. Could be x y or z. They claim SJ was the 1st option. Perhaps. The pick run by Woods/ Graham appeared to be the most obvious 1st option as that defender should have followed SJ on the clear out leaving TJG open on the slant. Maybe they think SJ 1on 1 with anyone is the 1st option, but normally TJG would have been uncovered as the pick w/Woods rubbed off the defender.

[26CornerBlitz]

From the booth: Chiefs at Bills

 

So now it’s third and goal, and the Bills kept their “11” personnel on the field. They lined up all three wideouts to the right side, T.J. Graham and Robert Woods far right, with Stevie Johnson in the tight slot. The play appeared to be designed to give Tuel his first look at Graham, who crossed paths with Graham outside in an effort to pick each other’s defender off momentarily. But unexpectedly, Chiefs DB Sean Smith froze at the line of scrimmage, leaving Stevie Johnson uncovered in the end zone.

 

The snap to Tuel was slightly low, which probably meant the rookie QB felt hurried to get the throw off. Instead of looking at a wide open Stevie Johnson, Tuel threw immediately to the spot where Graham was headed. That’s where Smith was standing, and the rest is history.

[Boatdrinks]

From the booth: Chiefs at Bills

 

So now it’s third and goal, and the Bills kept their “11” personnel on the field. They lined up all three wideouts to the right side, T.J. Graham and Robert Woods far right, with Stevie Johnson in the tight slot. The play appeared to be designed to give Tuel his first look at Graham, who crossed paths with Graham outside in an effort to pick each other’s defender off momentarily. But unexpectedly, Chiefs DB Sean Smith froze at the line of scrimmage, leaving Stevie Johnson uncovered in the end zone.

 

The snap to Tuel was slightly low, which probably meant the rookie QB felt hurried to get the throw off. Instead of looking at a wide open Stevie Johnson, Tuel threw immediately to the spot where Graham was headed. That’s where Smith was standing, and the rest is history.

 

Yes, TJG ran a pick play with Woods. While the low snap may have distracted Tuel, I contend that he panicked when he saw the overloaded look to his left pre-snap, knew it was a blitz, and decided he would throw to Graham (as the man coverage would dictate that Smith was going to vacate that spot to foll SJ) before the snap occurred. Maybe he rushed it due to the low snap, a better snap there and he might have seen SJ slip into the middle uncovered. He would have gotten clobbered as he threw it, but got the TD.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

 

 

Yes, TJG ran a pick play with Woods. While the low snap may have distracted Tuel, I contend that he panicked when he saw the overloaded look to his left pre-snap, knew it was a blitz, and decided he would throw to Graham (as the man coverage would dictate that Smith was going to vacate that spot to foll SJ) before the snap occurred. Maybe he rushed it due to the low snap, a better snap there and he might have seen SJ slip into the middle uncovered. He would have gotten clobbered as he threw it, but got the TD.

 

I think he was really cognizant of avoiding the sack. That's great, but the message to him should have been go to graham and if he is not wide open, throw it out of bounds.

[26CornerBlitz]

More

‏@BillsObserver

Tuel just a tad off here missing out on making it 14-3. Instead, they end up kicking a FG. pic.twitter.com/VqrXac5b3a

 

Good stuff from Kiko here:

@BillsObserver

Kiko sniffs out screen play and Charles has no chance here. Kiko was attached to his hip most of the game. pic.twitter.com/KzCp7LJWzZ

 

@BillsObserver

The play that could have changed the game. Fred just needed to recover from his stumble here. Easier said than done. pic.twitter.com/WDSEpKEW46

 

@BillsObserver

3rd&10 on the drive after pick 6. Tuel audibles out of pass, Stevie hears call and his body language screams "No!!!" pic.twitter.com/6RBpLue21i

 

@BillsObserver

Very next play, 4th&3. Graham has his man beat deep once again but Tuel throws something brutal. pic.twitter.com/Zm6xka0rwU

Edited November 6, 2013 by 26CornerBlitz

[Dibs]

Surrendering to the weight of this thread, even though I feel a new thread each game is better.

 

http://www.buffaloru...-smith-pick-six

 

kj

 

Wow, slide 4(of 6).

[26CornerBlitz]

Upon Further Review: Bills vs Chiefs: http://www.wgr550.co...-drive/17696036

 

Coming into their contest with the undefeated Kansas City Chiefs, the deck appeared to be stacked against the Buffalo Bills. Their top two quarterbacks were injured, leaving them to start an undrafted rookie against one of the National Football League's top defenses.

 

The Bills very nearly came away with a win, but glaring plays helped snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Before Buffalo travels to take on the Pittsburgh Steelers, first is a final look back at their game against the Chiefs with how each offensive and defensive player that took a snap performed.

 

Every week, with the help of the All-22 film available through NFL.com's Game Rewind package, WGR will provide the standouts, the duds and everything in between from the game that was.

 

For each player that appeared in the game on offense or defense, you'll see their name in bold, with a set of numbers after it. Example: Saul Goodman (54, -2, 2.7). The first number (54) represents the snap count of that game, the second (-2) represents the individual players plus-minus of positive plays to negative plays in that game. The third number (2.7) represents the weighted Grade Point Average assigned to that player by the author.

 

Previous Installments:

Week 1 - New England 23, Buffalo 21

Week 2 - Buffalo 24, Carolina 23

Week 3 - New York Jets 27, Buffalo 20

Week 4 - Buffalo 23, Baltimore 20

Week 5 - Cleveland 37, Buffalo 24

Week 6 - Cincinnati 27, Buffalo 24

Week 7 - Buffalo 23 Miami 21

Week 8 - New Orleans 35, Buffalo 17

Edited November 6, 2013 by 26CornerBlitz

[bobblehead]

 

 

They pretty much did beat the spit out of them everywhere but the scoreboard. KC will be coming down to earth soon. They've lucked out all season. How many backup QBs have they seen this year? How many close games?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

 

That was not a complicated play by any stretch of the imagination.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Actually- the play was not that different from the winning TD play from the Carolina game, just the field location was more inside. It was a good play call

[MDH]

Actually- the play was not that different from the winning TD play from the Carolina game, just the field location was more inside. It was a good play call

 

Obviously it wasn't. You have 11 guys defending 11 yards of field there. Everything is so compact it takes a quick, accurate read and throw from the QB. I don't trust Tuel in that situation and I don't know why the coaches did.

 

Look, it is a good looking short yardage, red zone play. I just question using it with Tuel back there in his first start. I've supported Hackett's conservative play calling all year in bringing along the young QBs and his run, run, run philosophy inside the the 5 yard line (even when it didn't work) so this isn't me with 20/20 vision. I wouldn't have liked the call before I knew the result.

 

Tuel made a mistake but it's a mistake the coaches should have known he was very capable of making.

[K-9]

Obviously it wasn't. You have 11 guys defending 11 yards of field there. Everything is so compact it takes a quick, accurate read and throw from the QB. I don't trust Tuel in that situation and I don't know why the coaches did.

 

Look, it is a good looking short yardage, red zone play. I just question using it with Tuel back there in his first start. I've supported Hackett's conservative play calling all year in bringing along the young QBs and his run, run, run philosophy inside the the 5 yard line (even when it didn't work) so this isn't me with 20/20 vision. I wouldn't have liked the call before I knew the result.

 

Tuel made a mistake but it's a mistake the coaches should have known he was very capable of making.

 

Coaches know EVERY player is capable of making a mistake. But you simply can't coach from that perspective. A player makes enough of those mistakes, he's gone and coaches move on to the next guy.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[MDH]

Coaches know EVERY player is capable of making a mistake. But you simply can't coach from that perspective. A player makes enough of those mistakes, he's gone and coaches move on to the next guy.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Of course they coach from that perspective that's why they scale things back for your QBs and make the game easier for them. They call conservative plays in important situations when they wouldn't necessarily do that with better/more seasoned QBs.

 

This is the way it's been in the NFL for decades.

[K-9]

Of course they coach from that perspective that's why they scale things back for your QBs and make the game easier for them. They call conservative plays in important situations when they wouldn't necessarily do that with better/more seasoned QBs.

 

This is the way it's been in the NFL for decades.

 

We are talking about two different things, then. Marrone and Hackett couldn't have scaled back much more if they tried. Tuel was well protected by a dominant run game throughout. It was posted in another thread that early in the 4th quarter the Bills had run 35 times vs. passing it 23 times. They didn't put him in any bad situations all day. I suppose you can demand that Hackett take away the flexibility to audible when Tuel sees a certain coverage, but that's actually restraining him vs. protecting him. You may also argue that Hackett shouldn't have dialed up the 3rd down pass at the goal line, but AGAIN, it was a play they practiced all week with success. At what point are you undermining the confidence of your player by insisting that he lacks the tools necessary to get the job done? It's unfortunate Tuel wasn't up to the task, but I don't buy for a second the staff SHOULDN'T have insisted on finding out. That is counter-productive.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Maybe Someday]

Very interesting! I didn't notice him. Did anyone else?

 

I'll have to go take another look. . . .

I'm sick of thinking about "the play" so I'll try to change the subject. Yes, I did notice Charles and was pleasantly surprised at how well he played despite just being signed. I saw him getting off some blocks and he seemed to be holding his ground very well. I hope to see more out of him as he learns the defense. Here's hoping he is a diamond in the rough!!!

 

Anyone else want to talk about something other than "the play" or how bad Tuel is??? LOL

Edited November 6, 2013 by 3 --> 10 Connection

[Nitro]

I watched the goal line play a dozen times. Had HS football flash backs where the coach would rewind over and over again the mistakes you made. I observed that the fake to Fred Jackson fooled no one and the blitzer passed him on his left. Teul is locked in to the tandem of Woods and Graham. Stevie Johnson's strong inside move is screened by Urbik, Pears and the 2 Chiefs D linemen. The pass is away. From the angles on ALL-22, Graham is flashing open. He shed is DB and looks open. Smith, who lost Johnson, stumbles into the path of the throw. The rest is history. Funny this is if Johnson did not push Smith away so easily and Smith kept coverage. Chances are Graham would have a good chance for a TD. This is why to be a Bills fan is to be a glutton for punishment.

[ganesh]

 

Tuel made a mistake but it's a mistake the coaches should have known he was very capable of making.

 

Agreed. I would have preferred a naked bootleg there on the left side. Tuel could have got to the far end of the end zone.

[26CornerBlitz]

@JoeBuscaglia Exhibit A of why Spiller may be in Marrone's dog house: Look at this hole forming & 28 instead bounces left. #Bills pic.twitter.com/pxxQ4nBv2c

Edited November 12, 2013 by 26CornerBlitz

[K-9]

@JoeBuscaglia Exhibit A of why Spiller may be in Marrone's dog house: Look at this hole forming & 28 instead bounces left. #Bills pic.twitter.com/pxxQ4nBv2c

 

Ouch.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[26CornerBlitz]

@JoeBuscaglia

Exhibit B of Spiller case: Has 3-4 yds up middle, bounces left for -1. Could even cutback right towards Polamalu pic.twitter.com/Y9cHNR7KrT

[Canadian Bills Fan]

Tunnel vision

 

 

 

CBF

[l< j]

On J-Byrd's interception: http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013/11/12/5095204/buffalo-bills-precision-play-of-the-week-week-10-jairus-byrd-int

 

kj