Front Office Shakeup

[Dawgg]

personnel decisions based on "bean counting".. remember chuck knox?? do you know why he left??? THE BEAN COUNTERS!.. he became agitated with the constraints put on him in conjunction with the personnel dept.

How were draft-day decisions based on bean counting when the draft system is slotted?

 

There's no denying that this franchise is cheap. But there are other cheap franchises out there too – the key difference is that they make better personnel decision. The root cause of the Bills' failures has not been frugality, it has been boneheaded personnel decisions.

[dwight in philly]

How were draft-day decisions based on bean counting when the draft system is slotted?

 

There's no denying that this franchise is cheap. But there are other cheap franchises out there too – the key difference is that they make better personnel decision. The root cause of the Bills' failures has not been frugality, it has been boneheaded personnel decisions.

sure, the draft blunders were not because of the "bean counters", but letting "personnel" people leave i e : polian, butler, after saban and knox, was because of the frustration each experienced with dealing with the littman's and co.

[The Big Cat]

I would agree except for the use of the term 'crackpot'. But don't you agree that generally those types of theories exist only because the conventional explanation is lacking in some respect?

 

How do we explain that an organization, in a profession where the rules are designed to enhance competition, consistently under-performs its peers for over a decade? Defying the laws of probability in relation to the odds of success. The answer must be the organization is not seeking the same objectives as those the rules seek to support. In this case winning a championship on the field of play or at least competing for one.

 

The bottom line is results. And I'm hard pressed to believe that this organization regards winning as any kind of primary objective. And the one constant through the entire era of ineptitude on the field has been Wilson/Overdorf/Littman. Whoever the GM is they'll be subject to the same constraints and oversight so I cannot see why anyone would expect significantly different results regardless of who held the position.

 

I just think the situation, in general, is FAR too complex to pin on a few individuals. We're talking about people here, a lot of people. From players, to agents, to publicists, to accountants, to scouts, to managers, personnel experts, coaches, GM's, trainers, doctors, PARENTS...it's a lot of people.

 

As for why Buffalo has had such a perfect storm of incompatible personalities for sooooo long...I think we're truly destined to never quite know. But trying to force an answer, or determine a scapegoat is like resorting to the flying spaghetti monster to find answers to the unknown. It might bring you comfort and solace to have a proverbial whipping boy, but it doesn't change the fact that we don't know ****.

 

The Minnesota Timberwolves haven't sniffed the NBA playoffs since 2004. Do you know how incredibly easy it is to make the playoffs in the NBA??

 

Over in the MLB, FIVE teams have playoff droughts that exceed The Bills': Baltimore (14), Toronto (18), Pirates (19), KC Royals (26), Washington Nationals (30).

 

So to say that this type of ineptitude is unprecedented is categorically false. Assuming Detroit makes the playoffs this year, yes we will sit atop the dubious throne of longest ever NFL drought, but other teams in other leagues have gone just as long, some even longer, and all for varying reasons.

 

Sometimes **** just happens.

 

One could make the case that the Patriots* 2000-present have been one of the most consistently dominant sports franchises of the modern era. How's that for a constant?

 

This is the classic case of "correlation does NOT equal causation." In this instance, folks keep gravitating toward the correlation between the rooted FO personnel and our decade of mediocrity. It's A possibility, but it's not THE lone answer, and to assume so implies tunnel vision or an agenda.

 

Sometimes **** just happens.

[GG]

How were draft-day decisions based on bean counting when the draft system is slotted?

 

There's no denying that this franchise is cheap. But there are other cheap franchises out there too – the key difference is that they make better personnel decision. The root cause of the Bills' failures has not been frugality, it has been boneheaded personnel decisions.

 

One feeds off the other. If you don't need to fill holes you create on your own, then you can get a better yield from the 8 draft picks. But when you fail to sign a decent player, you limit your options on draft day because your priority is now to replace the perfectly decent player you didn't retain.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Over in the MLB, FIVE teams have playoff droughts that exceed The Bills': Baltimore (14), Toronto (18), Pirates (19), KC Royals (26), Washington Nationals (30).

I wouldn't compare MLB, though three of those teams have been pretty bad for most of that time. The margin between not making the playoffs and making them is pretty slim, and I hesitate to say that a team that makes the playoffs from the weakest division is ever as good as the third-best team in the AL East.

 

I'm not just saying this because I'm a Jays fan, even though I am.

[FLFan]

As I look at our FA list for this year, we're less than a handful of internal signings away from being able to bring some talent through FA and the draft and have some honest to God depth on this team.

 

2012 will be the year of the upswing.

2013 will be the year when we finally see some traction. And if we continue on the same trajectory as we've been on the last two years, 2014 and beyond could be the most stable years we've seen in a LONG LONG time.

 

To blow the whole thing up would be a monumental mistake.

I agree with you but I doubt you will find much support amidst the lynch mob that is TSW. Nix moving aside for Whaley would make sense, as would a makeover of the Defensive staff, but anything beyond that would be taking a step backward yet again. This year has been disappointing but not the casue for panic or proof posiitve of the same old, same old as some here clearly believe.

[jcbillsfan]

Well Nix did say he had nothing to do about the decision about trading Evans and that came from Overdorff. That seems to me to be blatant bean counting making personel decisions.

Nix never said that

[Homey D. Clown]

A shakeup with this organization is like the game of boggle, the same 16 people bounced around doing different things. The only thing it ends up spelling is "losing" in a different way.

[FLFan]

Nix never said that

Don't spoil people's conspiracy fantasies.

[Fan in San Diego]

Probably changing the stationary letter head to be more aggressive.

[The Big Cat]

I wouldn't compare MLB, though three of those teams have been pretty bad for most of that time. The margin between not making the playoffs and making them is pretty slim, and I hesitate to say that a team that makes the playoffs from the weakest division is ever as good as the third-best team in the AL East.

 

I'm not just saying this because I'm a Jays fan, even though I am.

 

Precisely why I brought up the Patriots* 2000-present.

[Fan in San Diego]

One feeds off the other. If you don't need to fill holes you create on your own, then you can get a better yield from the 8 draft picks. But when you fail to sign a decent player, you limit your options on draft day because your priority is now to replace the perfectly decent player you didn't retain.

 

Drafting 5 running backs in the first round is what has set this franchise back. If we had stuck with McGahee, other first round picks could have been used on the DL and OL. But no, we have the revolving door of 1st round RB's.

[dave mcbride]

Where's there's smoke, there's usually fire:

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/21/tebowmania-cant-lift-a-buffalo-blackout/

[Cheddar's Dad]

"They were behind the cutting of Langston Walker even though he would have been a serviceable backup."

 

Walker was working on a $43,000.000 contract. There is no team in this or any other league that I know of that would pay any player that kind of money to be a back up. It is obvious to me that many who post here have never been in the position of having to run a household or any other enterprise where decisions have to be made regarding how to allocate your budget.

[The Big Cat]

Where's there's smoke, there's usually fire:

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/21/tebowmania-cant-lift-a-buffalo-blackout/

 

How is this even remotely relevant?

[DrDawkinstein]

How is this even remotely relevant?

 

I read it as the money guys are on the hot seat.

 

Though coach Chan Gailey and G.M. Buddy Nix aren’t believed to be on the hot seat, Wilson could decide that bigger names are needed, both to fill seats and to increase the chances of the team making it back to the playoffs.

 

Taking off the handcuffs?

[BillsVet]

Does a "new" GM mean a new coach?

 

Levy and Brandon were made GM, and both Modrak and Guy kept their jobs. How Modrak survived working for 3 GM's is beyond me, but it wouldn't surprise me if Whaley is made GM and Gailey stays around for another year. Remember, it was RW who fired DJ, not Brandon the GM at the time. Most teams' GM fire the HC.

 

 

Walker was working on a $43,000.000 contract. There is no team in this or any other league that I know of that would pay any player that kind of money to be a back up. It is obvious to me that many who post here have never been in the position of having to run a household or any other enterprise where decisions have to be made regarding how to allocate your budget.

 

Walker signed a 5 year 25M dollar deal in March 2007.

[thewildrabbit]

 

Walker was working on a $43,000.000 contract. There is no team in this or any other league that I know of that would pay any player that kind of money to be a back up. It is obvious to me that many who post here have never been in the position of having to run a household or any other enterprise where decisions have to be made regarding how to allocate your budget.

 

If Walker had stayed he would have been the starting RT under Fewell, Jauron only cut him because he said Walker couldn't get to the line fast enough when they ran the "no huddle" offense. Something the bills scrapped after 2 weeks. Kirk Chambers stunk worse then Walker ever did.

 

Anyway, Jauron was a moron, cutting both his starting LG and RT before the season and not replacing Walker with a decent talent. Don't forget he also fired his OC two weeks before the season started. Still, that moron did better then Gailey has so far.

[The Big Cat]

I read it as the money guys are on the hot seat.

 

That would assume the money guys are in charge of a.) creating an inferior product b.) selling that inferior product c.) marketing a specific peripheral of this inferior product (in this case the game experience) and d.) the inconvenience of Christmas.

 

I mean, greater leaps have been made at TSW, that's for sure. And I'll never know why I continue to allow myself be baffled, but honestly...

Edited December 21, 2011 by The Big Cat

[dave mcbride]

How is this even remotely relevant?

When multiple people in the national media start alluding to a possible shakeup, more often than not it happens. Historically, they've been more wired in than local media (on average), I think partly because they have connections with the league office. The lowest attendance in a decade 2001 (right after paying a QB a lot of money who then went belly up) plus a potential 9-game losing streak is the sort of thing that leads to people being forced out.

 

Speaking for myself, I strongly suspect that the Bills' masthead will look different come February 1.

Edited December 21, 2011 by dave mcbride

[The Big Cat]

When multiple people in the national media start alluding to a possible shakeup, more often than not it happens. Historically, they've been more wired in than local media (on average), I think partly because they have connections with the league office. The lowest attendance in a decade 2001 (right after paying a QB a lot of money who then went belly up) plus a potential 9-game losing streak is the sort of thing that leads to people being forced out.

 

Speaking for myself, I strongly suspect that the Bills' masthead will look different come February 1.

 

Ah yes, the power of language.

 

From your link:

 

"That dynamic could prompt owner Ralph Wilson to consider making drastic changes. Though coach Chan Gailey and G.M. Buddy Nix aren’t believed to be on the hot seat, Wilson could decide that bigger names are needed, both to fill seats and to increase the chances of the team making it back to the playoffs."

 

Let me paraphrase.

 

"Something could happen. Right now nobody thinks anything will happen. But something could happen."

 

That's one HELL of an allusion.

 

When you said, "When multiple people in the national media start alluding to..." I think what you meant to say was "When I start to infer things that were never directly implied by the national media..."

[dave mcbride]

Ah yes, the power of language.

 

From your link:

 

"That dynamic could prompt owner Ralph Wilson to consider making drastic changes. Though coach Chan Gailey and G.M. Buddy Nix aren’t believed to be on the hot seat, Wilson could decide that bigger names are needed, both to fill seats and to increase the chances of the team making it back to the playoffs."

 

Let me paraphrase.

 

"Something could happen. Right now nobody thinks anything will happen. But something could happen."

 

That's one HELL of an allusion.

 

When you said, "When multiple people in the national media start alluding to..." I think what you meant to say was "When I start to infer things that were never directly implied by the national media..."

I can see you like to use sarcasm when arguing. I don't. We'll all see what happens within a couple of months, but I'm out.

[The Big Cat]

I can see you like to use sarcasm when arguing. I don't. We'll all see what happens within a couple of months, but I'm out.

 

Boy, your diction is lacking.

 

Nothing in my post was "sarcastic." Sardonic, perhaps. Certainly snarky. But sarcastic? Hell No. I meant every word I said.

Edited December 21, 2011 by The Big Cat

[billnutinphoenix]

The best way to get a shakeup is to lose the last 2 games...In addition, we'll get a better pick...What point is there to win any of the last 2 games when our fate is determined?

[playman]

how about a blowup? like tnt or so?

[Nanker]

Mods, please close this thread. This topic has already been covered here.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Nanker

[jcbillsfan]

Ah yes, the power of language.

 

From your link:

 

"That dynamic could prompt owner Ralph Wilson to consider making drastic changes. Though coach Chan Gailey and G.M. Buddy Nix aren’t believed to be on the hot seat, Wilson could decide that bigger names are needed, both to fill seats and to increase the chances of the team making it back to the playoffs."

 

Let me paraphrase.

 

"Something could happen. Right now nobody thinks anything will happen. But something could happen."

 

That's one HELL of an allusion.

 

When you said, "When multiple people in the national media start alluding to..." I think what you meant to say was "When I start to infer things that were never directly implied by the national media..."

 

 

say hello to vincent jackson

[Gray Beard]

From this week's TMQ (I know he's a pompous ass, but even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while).

 

"The Bills, who haven't made the playoffs in a league-worst dozen years, look like they've learned nothing in that span and yet again require a total housecleaning. Buffalo needs an aggressive young general manager who wants to make a career reputation for himself. Instead the Bills have had a succession of aging general managers (currently 72-year-old Buddy Nix) who seem content to pick up a few extra years of big paychecks before retiring, and don't mind low-profile losing since they'll never look for another job anyway."

[purple haze]

This.

 

I don't think anyone figured Nix would be around long. He'd have time to right the ship (which obviously never happened) and give way to a younger man. Whaley's promotion earlier this year and the fact he was already on-board seemed like a precursor to Nix being only temporary. At least Buddy told some great whoppers to keep us entertained. He certainly didn't get much in the way of wins.

 

Spiller is playing well. Carrington is getting better. A. Williams, Dareus, Searcy, Sheppard, Hairston, Rogers, have all contributed very well at times. Chris White was one of the better ST's players before he hurt his knee. Rome wasn't built in a day it takes time to build through the draft. But having so many draft picks contributing is a good thing. Nix never said he would be there for a long time. Like you said Whaley being brought in was further evidence of that. And probably something NIx suggested Mr. Wilson sign off on. The Bills are rebuilding and everybody knew that when the season started. Just because they started out hot didn't change that fact.

 

For those that like the idea of Whaley taking over, his philosophy, building through the draft, is the same as Buddy Nix's. Which is the same as the Rooney's philosophy in Pittsburgh and Ozzie Newsome in Baltimore and Ted Thompson in Green Bay, Bill Polian in Indianapolis, Belicheck in N.E. Don't expect the Bills to deviate from their plan of building through the draft.

Edited December 22, 2011 by purple haze

[The Wei 44]

Boy, your diction is lacking.

 

Nothing in my post was "sarcastic." Sardonic, perhaps. Certainly snarky. But sarcastic? Hell No. I meant every word I said.

 

I think it could certainly be argued that "That's one HELL of an allusion" was a sarcastic statement, no? I have no dog in this fight but felt the other guy was being unfairly maligned by you.

[BuffaloBlizzard]

One fact that seems to be going unmentioned here is that the Bills were the 2nd winningest team in the 90's. Who owned the team then? Oh yeah it was Ralph Wilson. This shows we can win consistently with him owning the team. Where was the talk of bean counters then?

 

The naysayers are no different from the press. When a team is winning everyone is doing everything right and when they're losing they can't do anything right. The only way to stop all the negative talk is to win. Simple as that. If that happens everybody will be saying, "Ralph's a great owner. We were the 2nd winningest team in the 90's and look, now he's built another winner."

 

Winning gives everybody rose colored glasses. Losing gives everybody crap colored glasses. The fact is, the truth is somewhere in the middle. So keep at it boys. Changing with the winds.

Edited December 22, 2011 by BuffaloBlizzard

[ganesh]

If that is the case, I hope he brings in players a little faster than Nix.

 

Actually I hope he can bring in better coaches faster!

[Shoto]

Russ Brandon should go as well, his product (The Bills) stink, to put it mildly. It is hard to market quality when the product is broken. As a life long Bills fan (1963) we desire and should demand better. There is no glory for loosing this long.

[BillsVet]

For those that like the idea of Whaley taking over, his philosophy, building through the draft, is the same as Buddy Nix's. Which is the same as the Rooney's philosophy in Pittsburgh and Ozzie Newsome in Baltimore and Ted Thompson in Green Bay, Bill Polian in Indianapolis, Belicheck in N.E. Don't expect the Bills to deviate from their plan of building through the draft.

 

32 NFL teams build through the draft. That's nothing new. Difference is, some just complete the job while others continue on the treadmill of mediocrity. And some teams, like the Steelers, Patriots, and Packers haven't bottomed out in years, turn their roster over, and continue winning. Having the same philosophy as successful teams doesn't mean Buffalo is set up to achieve the results those teams do.

 

Levy, Brandon, and Nix all tried to build through the draft. The first two failed, the jury is still out on NIx, and the 2010 draft is looking very much like the first two GM's attempts.

[aristocrat]

32 NFL teams build through the draft. That's nothing new. Difference is, some just complete the job while others continue on the treadmill of mediocrity. And some teams, like the Steelers, Patriots, and Packers haven't bottomed out in years, turn their roster over, and continue winning. Having the same philosophy as successful teams doesn't mean Buffalo is set up to achieve the results those teams do.

 

Levy, Brandon, and Nix all tried to build through the draft. The first two failed, the jury is still out on NIx, and the 2010 draft is looking very much like the first two GM's attempts.

 

yea, the 2010 draft was not very good for what this team needed. The 2011 draft though has been very good for what this team needed however. I'd be willing to give nix another shot but he has got to address the pass rush. Our defense is the 26th rated defense so he needs to spend the top picks there. Going into last years draft I remember hearing Nix being very humble and matter of fact about what he was going to do. I remember him stating over and over that we had a bad rush defense so he was going to address that. Our offense is the #14 and we had the best rusher in the league for a while until injury.

[Bufcomments]

My thing is why didn't they just promote Wailey this season and have Nix as a paid mentor.

 

The Bills are always one year behind on making moves.

[T.O.]

Truth be told, say what you want about the guy, but Ralph Wilson has never had a problem firing anyone who does or does not perform. I expect a shake up. If they don't quit or resign, they will be fired. You can call him a lot of things guys but the "old man ain't afraid" to much Buffalonian has rubbed off on him over the years. From Lou Saban to Dickey J the man is not afraid to pull the trigger on anyone regardless of their contracts. If he wasn't the owner of the Bills he would probably be in asked to join the Mafia as a hit man! Been around the man a long time, You can call him cheap, dumb, senile, but afraid to let some one go I'm sorry thats a big NO. "Scared" is not in his his vocabulary. A shake is going to happen. When he flies them to his house in Detroit, well you guys know the rest of how the story goes!

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Possible. Now that teams will be REQUIRED to spend 90% of the cap next year, graduating up to 99% in a few years, there's less reason to keep the bean-counters around --- or at least so many of them.

 

Also, look for Ralph to start going into convulsions and foaming at the mouth once the team HAS to spend most of the TV $. You know... less for his coin silos.

:lol: 90 ft depth gage

 

Maybe Ralph will sell if he is forced to lose profits.

[jester43]

We may or may not hear Buddy say "I'm gettin' too old for this stevestojan!"

 

 

he must be old if he still uses that reference! hah..good one :lol:

 

Knowing our luck, Whaley was probably the (*^*&%^$^#at OBD that convinced everybody that giving Fitz that extension was a good idea & taking Troupe over Gronk in the 2nd round was the right move.

yeah really. if this is the guy buddy hand-picked to succeed him i'm scared. he had 2 1/2 month to help the bills with their 2010 draft and look what happened.

 

unless, for some inexplicable reason, buddy nix is better at selecting front office talent than football players? seems like an odd talent for someone who claims not to be the smartest guy in the room.

[jester43]

Was it the "bean counters" who drafted Whitner when Ngata, was the obvious choice?

Was it the "bean counters" who traded up and drafted McCargo when Mangold was the obvious choice?

Was it the "bean counters" who rewarded Derrick Dockery with the richest contract in Buffalo Bills history when there were better guards available on the market?

Was it the "bean counters" who signed Langston Walker to $5M/year deal when no other team viewed him as a starting caliber tackle?

Was it the "bean counters" who signed Peerless Price to an over-valued long-term deal when the rest of the league knew he was washed up?

Was it the "bean counters" who traded up for Poz when David Harris was a better prospect all-around?

Was it the "bean counters" who drafted Troup when there were far better options at DT (Not to mention Gronkowski)?

 

Bean counters are a problem, certainly. But there is a far bigger problem at OBD: a repeated pattern of poor personnel decisions that has eroded the depth and competitiveness of this franchise.

now why not make a list of quality starters who have hist the street in the last 10 years because the bills didn't want to pay them the going rate for their services? and that is to say nothing of how they have spent at coaching and gm!

 

huh???? you are kidding .. right?? "evidence", try looking at their record since 1999! they let phillips go , then , he either had to fight to get his salary, or ralph tried to stiff him, do not recall exactly. so , the fact they traded evans for a 4th round pick that reeked of overdorf's involvement, cutting hangartner. the total lack of an aggressive approach to free-agency is another. sure they hide under the guise of "building thru the draft", but please, T O, ????that was brandon pumping up season tickets. i am not going to go further, but since 1960, the team has made some horrific decisions and 99% of them were made due to the "bean counters", and that mentality.

 

 

personnel decisions based on "bean counting".. remember chuck knox?? do you know why he left??? THE BEAN COUNTERS!.. he became agitated with the constraints put on him in conjunction with the personnel dept.

yeah really... some of these pollyannas must think the franchise was formed in 2000 or something. this crap has been going on forever in buffalo. ahmad rashad anyone?

 

I just think the situation, in general, is FAR too complex to pin on a few individuals. We're talking about people here, a lot of people. From players, to agents, to publicists, to accountants, to scouts, to managers, personnel experts, coaches, GM's, trainers, doctors, PARENTS...it's a lot of people.

 

As for why Buffalo has had such a perfect storm of incompatible personalities for sooooo long...I think we're truly destined to never quite know.

hahha :lol: :lol: this is your funniest post yet!

 

you honestly think this is one of the great mysteries of the universe that can't be "pinned on just one person?"

 

WHO HAS BEEN THE PERSON IN CHARGE OF THE BUFFALO BILLS FOR THE LAST 50 YEARS?

 

you don't think he might bear a little bit of the responsibility here?

 

something tells me if we were talking about ANY other industry, you really wouldn't have such a hard time connecting the dots back to the person in charge.