Trade Deadline has come and gone

[NeverOutNick]

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

 

My analysis is referring to Beane as a GM overall.  Not just the 2025 trade deadline.

 

He started with a reputation of being aggressive and bold.  But over the last many years (with the team on the edge of Super Bowl contention), he's become overly timid with upgrading the roster.  In free agency.  In the draft.  In trades.  While teams in our position should absolutely be making "all-in" moves, Beane is always hedging his bets towards the future.  Some think it's smart.  Many Bills fans believe it's a huge mistake.

 

There were many on this board who wanted to see us attempt a trade-up in the 2024 draft for a WR.  Make a blockbuster move and go up for Malik Nabers, or a smaller move for Brian Thomas Jr.  But nope.  We kept hearing how expensive it was for those oh-so valuable draft picks.  It wasn't even something on the table for Beane.  First round picks are just too valuable.  Of course when our pick rolled around, Beane was so impressed with the top WR on his board that he traded back and just took whoever was left over.  Yay for Keon Coleman.

 

The reason we don't have much cap space is because Beane prefers to fill the roster with 3-4 solid/mediocre players (Josh Palmer, Curtis Samuel, Elijah Moore) instead of making an aggressive trade for a really top-level guy.

 

It’s because the dude has nothing to lose. He and McD are too comfortable knowing their jobs are secure as long as they make the playoffs each year. And if Josh ever gets hurt and they miss the playoffs it’s the perfect excuse. Sucks that we’re living groundhogs day every year but at least we get to watch an all time great QB. What’s worse is Josh will waste his best years under a regime that has peaked and never do enough for him to win it all. Just have to hope he can overcome the incompetence 🙏🏻 

[sven233]

Alright.....the deadline has come and gone and we were left out in the cold.  So, we have to make due with what we have in the building.

 

A couple of quick thoughts (even though I don't love them myself):

 

WR - We desperately needed a WR1.  We got nothing.  So, what do we have to hope for?  Whelp, we have to hope Palmer is back sooner rather than later.  And, as much as it pains me to say it because I don't have any expectations at all for the player, we have to hope Gabe Davis can come in here and do something positive.  That said, the bar is SUPER low.  Can he offer more the Coleman?  If he can't, you may as well release him now.  Gabe, even at his best, was basically a slightly better version than Coleman.  Not super fast, but faster than Coleman.  Had trouble getting open (except against the Chiefs for whatever reason) against man coverage, but Coleman can't do it all either.  So, I guess if it gets Coleman off the field, step right up, Gabe......  Ugh..... It's disgusting to even think that our major upgrade at WR this year is praying that Gabe Davis, who was cut by the Jags after 1 season because he was so bad, came in hurt and was finally elevated to the PRACTICE SQUAD last week, is what we are counting on.  But here we are........

 

DL - We've lost Oliver and Hoecht for the year and what do we do?  Nothing.....we bring in guys off the street to try out for the practice squad.  An awful plan.  Now, we do have Sanders coming back hopefully in a couple weeks.  He's a 2nd round pick that did show flashes here and there before he went down, but was super inconsistent.  So, we have to again hope and pray that this young guy comes back 100% physically and hope that the mental reps and time in the playbook while he was hurt help his production on the field.  I still have hopes for him because I like the skill set, but he will need to figure it out a lot quicker than he did when he was in the lineup earlier this year.  That brings me the the Hoecht injury.  UGH....no other word but devastating.  That guy showed up and made the single biggest impact we have had on our defensive line in a very long time.  How do you replace that?  Solomon?  Shows flashes of a great speed rush at times, but is undersized and gets eaten up quick.

 

HOWEVER, and here is where my curiosity comes in.  Hoecht in the short time he was here seemed to make the most impact rushing as a stand up LB right up the middle of the defense.  He was helping collapse the pocket and freed up Groot and Bosa to to their thing on the outside and immediately they started playing better.  Earlier in the year when Solomon was playing, they used him like a traditional edge rusher coming from the outside and he was getting devoured by bigger, athletic tackles.  What I am going to try and do to replace Hoecht, is actually try and use whoever it is the same way we were using Hoecht.  Standing up, working the middle of the offensive line against the Guards and Center.  He has a rep or 2 in there Sunday and actually had a couple nice rushes.  He abused a G on one rep that I can remember.  So, are they going to continue to use him like that or was that just because of the game plan they had in?  Hopefully they stick with it.

 

Now, if they are truly looking for someone to fill the Hoecht role and rush up the middle on passing downs, I am thinking this might be a chance for Landon Jackson to find a roll.  I looked it up.  Hoecht is 6'4" and around 270lbs.  Landon Jackson?  6'6" and 264lbs.  So, very similar in size.  Obviously, they see him in practice and we don't.  But the couple of times we saw him in game action, he lined up as a traditional DE and that was really it.  What if, and it's a big what if, you tried him as a rush LB just like Hoecht was being used.  The one thing Jackson has is strength and a non stop motor.  He also uses his hands well.  What he doesn't appear to have is elite flexibility and bend.  So, why not line him up over a G and just turn him loose?  Tell him to just bull rush guys and try and collapse to pocket like Hoecht was doing.  This may mask his weaknesses and play to his strengths.  I don't know.  I am just searching for ideas that are on the roster after we busted at the trade deadline and this is one thought I had.  Who knows.....maybe they have already tried this in practice and he stinks at it and the dude is just going to be a bust.

 

Anyway, today stunk for a lot of reasons.  We just have to hope we can find some of the answers and get even a little better with the guys we have on the roster that haven't contributed much yet.  Gotta get the most out of them.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

1 hour ago, jaybeezee said:

 

I dont dip****. Gabe is actually more proven then him and we dont have to pay 9mil for him.

 

Same type of player. 3rd stringer at best

Calls me a (*^*&%^$^#but literally said "Palmer is Gabe Davis." 
 

I shouldn't even feed in to you, but I will anyways. Can you clarify what you mean by 3rd string? They should be the 3rd passing option, or they should be 3rd string WRs on the depth chart?

[BuffaloBillyG]

9 minutes ago, sven233 said:

Alright.....the deadline has come and gone and we were left out in the cold.  So, we have to make due with what we have in the building.

 

A couple of quick thoughts (even though I don't love them myself):

 

WR - We desperately needed a WR1.  We got nothing.  So, what do we have to hope for?  Whelp, we have to hope Palmer is back sooner rather than later.  And, as much as it pains me to say it because I don't have any expectations at all for the player, we have to hope Gabe Davis can come in here and do something positive.  That said, the bar is SUPER low.  Can he offer more the Coleman?  If he can't, you may as well release him now.  Gabe, even at his best, was basically a slightly better version than Coleman.  Not super fast, but faster than Coleman.  Had trouble getting open (except against the Chiefs for whatever reason) against man coverage, but Coleman can't do it all either.  So, I guess if it gets Coleman off the field, step right up, Gabe......  Ugh..... It's disgusting to even think that our major upgrade at WR this year is praying that Gabe Davis, who was cut by the Jags after 1 season because he was so bad, came in hurt and was finally elevated to the PRACTICE SQUAD last week, is what we are counting on.  But here we are........

 

DL - We've lost Oliver and Hoecht for the year and what do we do?  Nothing.....we bring in guys off the street to try out for the practice squad.  An awful plan.  Now, we do have Sanders coming back hopefully in a couple weeks.  He's a 2nd round pick that did show flashes here and there before he went down, but was super inconsistent.  So, we have to again hope and pray that this young guy comes back 100% physically and hope that the mental reps and time in the playbook while he was hurt help his production on the field.  I still have hopes for him because I like the skill set, but he will need to figure it out a lot quicker than he did when he was in the lineup earlier this year.  That brings me the the Hoecht injury.  UGH....no other word but devastating.  That guy showed up and made the single biggest impact we have had on our defensive line in a very long time.  How do you replace that?  Solomon?  Shows flashes of a great speed rush at times, but is undersized and gets eaten up quick.

 

HOWEVER, and here is where my curiosity comes in.  Hoecht in the short time he was here seemed to make the most impact rushing as a stand up LB right up the middle of the defense.  He was helping collapse the pocket and freed up Groot and Bosa to to their thing on the outside and immediately they started playing better.  Earlier in the year when Solomon was playing, they used him like a traditional edge rusher coming from the outside and he was getting devoured by bigger, athletic tackles.  What I am going to try and do to replace Hoecht, is actually try and use whoever it is the same way we were using Hoecht.  Standing up, working the middle of the offensive line against the Guards and Center.  He has a rep or 2 in there Sunday and actually had a couple nice rushes.  He abused a G on one rep that I can remember.  So, are they going to continue to use him like that or was that just because of the game plan they had in?  Hopefully they stick with it.

 

Now, if they are truly looking for someone to fill the Hoecht role and rush up the middle on passing downs, I am thinking this might be a chance for Landon Jackson to find a roll.  I looked it up.  Hoecht is 6'4" and around 270lbs.  Landon Jackson?  6'6" and 264lbs.  So, very similar in size.  Obviously, they see him in practice and we don't.  But the couple of times we saw him in game action, he lined up as a traditional DE and that was really it.  What if, and it's a big what if, you tried him as a rush LB just like Hoecht was being used.  The one thing Jackson has is strength and a non stop motor.  He also uses his hands well.  What he doesn't appear to have is elite flexibility and bend.  So, why not line him up over a G and just turn him loose?  Tell him to just bull rush guys and try and collapse to pocket like Hoecht was doing.  This may mask his weaknesses and play to his strengths.  I don't know.  I am just searching for ideas that are on the roster after we busted at the trade deadline and this is one thought I had.  Who knows.....maybe they have already tried this in practice and he stinks at it and the dude is just going to be a bust.

 

Anyway, today stunk for a lot of reasons.  We just have to hope we can find some of the answers and get even a little better with the guys we have on the roster that haven't contributed much yet.  Gotta get the most out of them.

We have a guy I think can run the Hoecht plays. And I know I'm crazy to think this. But he's got some power and speed and has somewhat of a knack for making plays when he's in there. 

 

AJE

 

I know he's more of a DE, but I really think he has the athleticism to do a poor man's job of those plays. 

[Alphadawg7]

49 minutes ago, BananaB said:

If you guys say so but I don’t see it. He hasn’t played well in the little he’s been asked to do so asking him to do more makes no sense anyway. But hey, him and Coleman both had a good camp and that’s enough for Beane so I guess we are stuck with them. 

I don’t think anyone thinks Shavers is the answer.  The point is BOTH Samuel and Moore are as fast or faster than Shaheed and we are NOT using them in that way.  Neither was MVS or Harty last year, 2 guys that were doing what Shaheed was doing for the Saints before him we did not use in the same way here.

 

So what WR trade happened that we missed out on?  None of the WRs that actually gave us something we lacked happened.  Olave, Wilson, Waddle, AJ, and BTJ all didn’t get traded.  

[Freddie's Dead]

Once again, McBeane fails to deliver at the trade deadline.  We needed a receiver badly, and a DT even worse.  Guess we're looking at street free agents to fill in....

[gomper]

25 minutes ago, NeverOutNick said:

It’s because the dude has nothing to lose. He and McD are too comfortable knowing their jobs are secure as long as they make the playoffs each year. And if Josh ever gets hurt and they miss the playoffs it’s the perfect excuse. Sucks that we’re living groundhogs day every year but at least we get to watch an all time great QB. What’s worse is Josh will waste his best years under a regime that has peaked and never do enough for him to win it all. Just have to hope he can overcome the incompetence 🙏🏻 

A Fing Men. Thank you. 

[NeverOutNick]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I don’t think anyone thinks Shavers is the answer.  The point is BOTH Samuel and Moore are as fast or faster than Shaheed and we are NOT using them in that way.  Neither was MVS or Harty last year, 2 guys that were doing what Shaheed was doing for the Saints before him we did not use in the same way here.

 

So what WR trade happened that we missed out on?  None of the WRs that actually gave us something we lacked happened.  Olave, Wilson, Waddle, AJ, and BTJ all didn’t get traded.  

Samuel has never been a downfield threat. He’s an awful route runner too BUT I will give you that we should be using Moore on deep routes more. I do think Shaheed is better than both of our current WRs ESPECIALLY at stretching the field but I also agree that he probably wasn’t the target. If Garret Wilson or BTJ were actually available and were traded to another team I’d be super pissed though because either would’ve made a huge impact to our offense 

[Billz4ever]

7 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

We have a guy I think can run the Hoecht plays. And I know I'm crazy to think this. But he's got some power and speed and has somewhat of a knack for making plays when he's in there. 

 

AJE

 

I know he's more of a DE, but I really think he has the athleticism to do a poor man's job of those plays. 

 

I think you're probably right, but wonder how the EDGE rotation would work if they have Bosa, Groot, and AJE all the on field at the same time? Guessing Solomon gets rolled in. Not sure about Jackson.  It's disappointing he's lucky to even get a Gameday jersey.  

 

I'm a little worried about Bosa's snap count.  I don't know if he should be getting that many snaps if we want him fresh and available come playoffs.  We're almost forced to though because he's playing well.

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Billz4ever

[BuffaloBillyG]

8 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I don’t think anyone thinks Shavers is the answer.  The point is BOTH Samuel and Moore are as fast or faster than Shaheed and we are NOT using them in that way.  Neither was MVS or Harty last year, 2 guys that were doing what Shaheed was doing for the Saints before him we did not use in the same way here.

 

So what WR trade happened that we missed out on?  None of the WRs that actually gave us something we lacked happened.  Olave, Wilson, Waddle, AJ, and BTJ all didn’t get traded.  

This is my biggest gripe. Is the usage. I wouldn't have minded Shaheed, however I don't think he would have been used correctly. He's catch a ton of quick screens, though.

 

Honestly, I don't think we used a player like Samuel right since we had Isiah McKenzie. What ever happened to those little pop forward passes they used to do? Those worked well. The timing is always a bit off on those end arounds. Feels like those pop passes to the motioning WR would be better 

[sven233]

14 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

We have a guy I think can run the Hoecht plays. And I know I'm crazy to think this. But he's got some power and speed and has somewhat of a knack for making plays when he's in there. 

 

AJE

 

I know he's more of a DE, but I really think he has the athleticism to do a poor man's job of those plays. 

 

On the surface, I agree. I do think he could play the Hoecht role.  However, he is having the best year of his career so far this season playing DE.  We still need depth there because Bosa is already playing too many snaps as it is.  You play AJ in a different role, you are taking some very much DE depth away.  

 

So yeah, I agree in theory, but what we need is someone who is on the team that hasn't been able to carve out a role yet show the ability to do as much as Hoecht was doing as possible.

[BuffaloBillyG]

2 minutes ago, sven233 said:

 

On the surface, I agree. I do think he could play the Hoecht role.  However, he is having the best year of his career so far this season playing DE.  We still need depth there because Bosa is already playing too many snaps as it is.  You play AJ in a different role, you are taking some very much DE depth away.  

 

So yeah, I agree in theory, but what we need is someone who is on the team that hasn't been able to carve out a role yet show the ability to do as much as Hoecht was doing as possible.

 

13 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

 

I think you're probably right, but wonder how the EDGE rotation would work if they have Bosa, Groot, and AJE all the on field at the same time? Guessing Solomon gets rolled in. Not sure about Jackson.  It's disappointing he's lucky to even get a Gameday jersey.  

 

I'm a little worried about Bosa's snap count.  I don't know if he should be getting that many snaps if we want him fresh and available come playoffs.  We're almost forced to though because he's playing well.

 

In my mind, AJE can still backfill DE. Hoecht played DE snaps as well. It just means maybe he sees a more full time work load. 

 

Then you have to look at what else we have. Can Landon Jackson eat some snaps and gain some experience? If so get him active on game day. If not, let's see what else is out there and bring in that body. Maybe Dorian Williams can take some of those Hoecht snaps. Shaq Thompson can work in as well. 

 

Key is I don't think any one guy can do what Hoecht provided because before he came back, I didn't see any of the zero DT formations. So it may even be a shared duty type situation.

[thewookie1]

Based on some of the scuttlebutt out there

 

Bills called on Garrett Wilson, Waddle and Olave

 

There were rumors that Calais Campbell threatened retirement to any interested trade partner

 

Bills definitely had interest in Debo Samuel and potentially bringing Von Miller back

 

Jets apparently were either completely or mostly unresponsive to AFC East calls 

 

I read a rumor we may have talked about Ridley as well.
 

It feels like a failure but I do kind of understand the WR predicament. 3 possible or present #1s were available but two were divisional teams and the other seems to be unsure what they plan to do with him. Shaheed is certainly a present vertical threat but the Bills likely seen him as just a better Elijah Moore or another Palmer. 

Honestly I’m more disappointed by the lack of a defensive tackle/end since there shouldn’t have been anywhere near the same level of dearth of targets out there. But I have a suspicion that Harrison Phillips was the only target they had much interest in besides a Campbell. They have an exorbitant value placed on previous time played in the system which basically eliminates all but a handful of players who aren’t just practice squad guys.

 

I definitely feel Beane had a trade in his holster based on the Johnson contract adjustment but for whatever reason it never happened 

[CircleTheWagons99]

[HappyDays]

39 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I don’t think anyone thinks Shavers is the answer.  The point is BOTH Samuel and Moore are as fast or faster than Shaheed and we are NOT using them in that way.  Neither was MVS or Harty last year, 2 guys that were doing what Shaheed was doing for the Saints before him we did not use in the same way here.

 

There's a lot more to being a vertical WR than just a 40 time. Samuel and Moore have never been vertical WRs... They don't have Shaheed's release, his ability to stack CBs, his ball tracking, his hands. Shaheed has his own limitations but the one thing he is special at is the one thing our offense still lacks.

 

Chiefs fans couldn't wait to get rid of MVS when he was there. He was never nearly as consistent in his role as Shaheed has been. Yeah he had a couple good games in New Orleans, and then he was never heard from again. Harty was a kick returner and gadget player whose career was ruined by turf toe. These are not good comparisons to what Shaheed has been for the last couple years.

 

No defensive coordinator out there is worried about anyone in our WR room getting behind their defense. You can see it in their compressed formations week after week. Last year we had Cooper who was a legit vertical threat and just having that threat on the field backed defenses off enough to make a difference. We're going to have to survive the rest of the year without that skill set. The Bills have chosen to impose that limitation on themselves and they have to make it work.

[Buffalo Ballin]

Beane was interested in bringing Von Miller back. Wow.

 

Again, he's always into nostalgia signings.

[Shaw66]

6 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Lots of activity today and some major moves. Of the Bills competition the Colts got better but gave up a ton for Sauce. Other than that, it feels like the NFC teams really improved more.

 

I’m on record as thinking that the Bills had to add a boundary WR. The Shaheed comp felt doable but probably had to pay a higher price than Seattle based on where the picks will be. Otherwise, it doesn’t seem like a deal was there to be had.
 

I know that the Bills were active and that’s what I ask of them. Don’t be too arrogant to think that you’re good enough in a spot where you clearly suck. They made the calls and tried to make deals. It takes 2 to tango and you have to be smart. I’m not going to hold this deadline against Beane. Now, it may blow up in his face if they fall short of the Super Bowl but he did try. 

This is a really good take. I mean, I don't know the talent well enough to know if there was a guy who would really help, but I agree that Beane needs to, and apparently did, operate with brains and not overspend out of desperation. 

 

In thinking about the additions the Bills might have needed and gotten, began to have different view of how they run their personnel.  When the Bills need a guy at a position because a starter has gone down, they don't sign free agents to replace the injured guy. They promote from within, and they sign a free agent with potential to grow and block him into the bottom on the depth chart, on the practice squad. Then they work their way up, maybe passing someone, maybe just waiting in line. 

 

The Bills do that because what's most important to them is having the guys on the field execute their assignments. They don't want to take a talented free agent and plug him into a system where he doesn't know or do his assignment consistently.  

 

Even the vets they brought back have had to work their way up from the bottom.  Poyer, Philips, Gabe Davis.  Tre White. 

 

That philosophy makes the Bills less likely to make a splash at the trade deadline, because the Bills prefer to fill holes with the next guy in line in the system. 

[mannc]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I don’t think anyone thinks Shavers is the answer.  The point is BOTH Samuel and Moore are as fast or faster than Shaheed and we are NOT using them in that way.  Neither was MVS or Harty last year, 2 guys that were doing what Shaheed was doing for the Saints before him we did not use in the same way here.

 

So what WR trade happened that we missed out on?  None of the WRs that actually gave us something we lacked happened.  Olave, Wilson, Waddle, AJ, and BTJ all didn’t get traded.  

If Moore and Samuel are faster than Shaheed, then they certainly have not shown that on the field.  Who cares what Samuel ran at Ohio State 6 years ago, in shorts?  Shaheed never ran at the combine because of injury, but he could well be a sub-4.3 guy and it shows up on the field.  He is also, undeniably, a great kick returner, which Moore and Samuel are not.  

Edited 12 hours ago by mannc

[Shaw66]

11 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

There's a lot more to being a vertical WR than just a 40 time. Samuel and Moore have never been vertical WRs... They don't have Shaheed's release, his ability to stack CBs, his ball tracking, his hands. Shaheed has his own limitations but the one thing he is special at is the one thing our offense still lacks.

 

Chiefs fans couldn't wait to get rid of MVS when he was there. He was never nearly as consistent in his role as Shaheed has been. Yeah he had a couple good games in New Orleans, and then he was never heard from again. Harty was a kick returner and gadget player whose career was ruined by turf toe. These are not good comparisons to what Shaheed has been for the last couple years.

 

No defensive coordinator out there is worried about anyone in our WR room getting behind their defense. You can see it in their compressed formations week after week. Last year we had Cooper who was a legit vertical threat and just having that threat on the field backed defenses off enough to make a difference. We're going to have to survive the rest of the year without that skill set. The Bills have chosen to impose that limitation on themselves and they have to make it work.

Thanks for this.  Good stuff.

 

I don't completely agree that coordinators are not worried about the Bills going deep. In the piece by Kubiak in the news that someone discussed, Kubiak said that teams are playing two deep a lot against the Bills.  Right after I read I happened to see a replay from the Chiefs all-22, also in a thread, where Allen threw to Shakir, I think, in the right flat for a nice gain. It was just what Kubiak said - two deep safeties.  And the play worked in part because those guys were so deep. Once Shakir beat the first defenders, he had a lot of running room, precisely because the safeties were still 15 yards away. 

 

Whatever. I really the last sentence. The Bills didn't make that choice this week. They made if eight weeks ago, if not four months ago. This is the way they want to play. It doesn't make sense to you. To me, I sort of get it, but it sure seems odd to choose that style. 

 

And the big problem that we've often mentioned is that what they've actually is a good style for piling up wins in the regular season, but it puts the team at a disadvantage in the playoffs, where the talent and intensity goes up. It's in those games where a true deep threat can be valuable, if only to stretch the defense. 

 

 

[Buffalo716]

28 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Thanks for this.  Good stuff.

 

I don't completely agree that coordinators are not worried about the Bills going deep. In the piece by Kubiak in the news that someone discussed, Kubiak said that teams are playing two deep a lot against the Bills.  Right after I read I happened to see a replay from the Chiefs all-22, also in a thread, where Allen threw to Shakir, I think, in the right flat for a nice gain. It was just what Kubiak said - two deep safeties.  And the play worked in part because those guys were so deep. Once Shakir beat the first defenders, he had a lot of running room, precisely because the safeties were still 15 yards away. 

 

Whatever. I really the last sentence. The Bills didn't make that choice this week. They made if eight weeks ago, if not four months ago. This is the way they want to play. It doesn't make sense to you. To me, I sort of get it, but it sure seems odd to choose that style. 

 

And the big problem that we've often mentioned is that what they've actually is a good style for piling up wins in the regular season, but it puts the team at a disadvantage in the playoffs, where the talent and intensity goes up. It's in those games where a true deep threat can be valuable, if only to stretch the defense. 

 

 

Josh is seeing a heavy amount of two Deep even with our potent running attack 

 

Which tells you all you need to know about how much other teams respect Josh his arm and the ability of this team to still stretch the field 

 

Even Knox went down the sideline for a big pass the other day.. we have tight end stretching the field 20 yards down the field