Will McD ever have a coaching tree?

[transient]

Edited 7 hours ago by transient

[Mikie2times]

11 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

curious why you wouldn’t consider Dabs or Brady as part of his tree? 

I have worked with a lot of leaders in my career, many of which did not impact me and some impacted me negatively. I don't think it's fair to credit them for any of my success. If you asked Dabs or Brady, who is the most influential coach in your career at the professional level I would bet a few nickels that name is not going to be Sean McDermott. 

1 hour ago, boater said:

I've seen McDermott Bashing threads start in many stealthy ways, but this may be the most creative approach yet.

 

1 hour ago, GroteStreet said:

all roads lead back to bashing McDermott.  Except for the roads that lead to bashing Beane.

If your leader can't develop other leaders is that an issue or a different angle to consider in evaluating him? Dan Campbell has two coordinators as HC's.  Kyle Shanahan has 2 and Robert Saleh. McVay has 4. Hell, even Todd Bowles has two. Sean has Daboll and Daboll doesn't even like Sean. So are we really linking them together? 

 

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

...and Daboll doesn't even like Sean.

 

 

I don't think Daboll likes anyone.

[boater]

4 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I have worked with a lot of leaders in my career, many of which did not impact me and some impacted me negatively. I don't think it's fair to credit them for any of my success. If you asked Dabs or Brady, who is the most influential coach in your career at the professional level I would bet a few nickels that name is not going to be Sean McDermott. 

 

If your leader can't develop other leaders is that an issue or a different angle to consider in evaluating him? Dan Campbell has two coordinators as HC's.  Kyle Shanahan has 2 and Robert Saleh. McVay has 4. Hell, even Todd Bowles has two. Sean has Daboll and Daboll doesn't even like Sean. So are we really linking them together? 

 

 

 

I don't understand what you think a coaching tree is?

• your first paragraph makes it seem all about approach to football (that is what I think of with a coaching tree). Such as the Walsh/Holmgrem/Reid offense.
• your second paragraph makes it seem about people's leadership relationships and affinity toward one another. Who worked for whom.

If Dabs or Brady are not leadership-influenced by McD as you suggest, where do you put them on the chart? Are they islands to themselves? Or do you put them where best fits their football philosophy?

 

Eh, coaching tree is a nebulous concept. Therefore a discussion that tries to pigeon hole coaches and make judgements from a coaching tree is a futile exercise.

 

 

 

 

[Mikie2times]

2 minutes ago, boater said:

 

I don't understand what you think a coaching tree is?

• your first paragraph makes it seem all about approach to football (that is what I think of with a coaching tree). Such as the Walsh/Holmgrem/Reid offense.
• your second paragraph makes it seem about people's leadership relationships and affinity toward one another. Who worked for whom.

If Dabs or Brady are not leadership-influenced by McD as you suggest, where do you put them on the chart? Are they islands to themselves? Or do you put them where best fits their football philosophy?

 

Eh, coaching tree is a nebulous concept. Therefore a discussion that tries to pigeon hole coaches and make judgements from a coaching tree is a futile exercise.

 

 

 

 

Except when he hasn't developed any coaches. Babich could be, but......

Edited 5 hours ago by Mikie2times

[transient]

38 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

 

Where's the key? The key, man... I need the key!

 

Green is... active HC? I'm assuming based on the fact there are 32.

Red is... unemployed?

Grey is... I thought retired, but Frazier is the DC of Seattle, so... WHAT IS GREY?!?!?!

 

You're triggerin' me something fierce right now. 

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, transient said:

Where's the key? The key, man... I need the key!

 

Green is... active HC? I'm assuming based on the fact there are 32.

Red is... unemployed?

Grey is... I thought retired, but Frazier is the DC of Seattle, so... WHAT IS GREY?!?!?!

 

You're triggerin' me something fierce right now. 

That's not my work, but good work still 

 

 

[transient]

6 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

That's not my work, but good work still 

 

 

There are dozens of comments disputing the "attribution" of coaches... but no explanation of the color key... and no key in the chart. Damn you and your taunts... I must know what is grey!  Damn you, sir!  

[RobbRiddick]

[CincyBillsFan]

13 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Some of the better leaders I have worked with have told me, you being an expert or great is not a sign that you’re doing your job well. How we perform when you aren’t there and how well you duplicate yourself with employees is. I think this logic clearly extends to coaches. To me it’s easier to validate who the very best are based on the number of future leaders and coaches they have been able to develop. 
 

Plenty of critical McD threads out there. I was hoping to focus this conversation on if anybody thinks McD will develop a coaching tree or has the capability of doing so, and if yes or no, how much does that matter in evaluating his success? 
 

Hypothetically, who would that tree consist of? I don’t consider Dabs, Frazier, or Brady as part of that tree. Does anybody here feel that is the case or could be in time? Maybe some influence? From my view this relevant as far as a different angle to evaluate his performance vs the standard stuff we hear on the board. 

This is a great point that I hadn't thought of before. And given McD's time as Head Coach and making the playoffs in 6 of the last 7 seasons the lack of a robust coaching tree is interesting.  Outside of DaBoll has anyone else been a HC or long lasting Defensive or offensive coordinator?

 

 

[Fleezoid]

I think this is more appropriate:

 

 

McDermott certainly has cultivated "airing of grievances."

[colin]

Mcd has daboll, who might somehow keep his job at nyg this sesaon.  if brady goes to pen st, i don't think you'd be able to include him unless he returns to the nfl.

 

just like no one views the OCs who have come out of ried's staff lately as hot prospects because they see the O as really belonging to andy, i think you'll get the same thing on the d side of the ball for mcd.

 

given how no good coaches come out of buffalo, and outside of wyatt teller no good players have come out of buffalo (maybe settle too, but he was a player elsewhere, and kinda sorta not really puna ford and diggs), either mcd is a figgen genius or josh, dawkins, and a couple other guys have just been good enough to get by and almost get there.

 

given how consistent our problems on D have been vs good coaches (basically either kc walks all over us in the playoffs, or other teams like indy w rivers, cincy in 2022) or LITERALLY EVERY TEAM WITH AN ELITE BACK AND PLUS QB and that allen is one of one with his touchdown producing magic, i tend to think mcd is not a genius and allen has literally saved this crap front office for years.

 

it's also the consensus opinion of outspoken nfl analysts and handy cappers.  we are strong favorites in the majority of our games, and at most like 3 point under dogs vs the absolute best.  if allen didn't play i don't think we'd be favored over most teams save the raiders and the jets. 

[Albany,n.y.]

4 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

You are missing the biggest ones. Walsh and Parcells.

But not in terms of winning. Sean Payton, Tom Coughlin, and Belichick all won Super Bowls - 9 in total. And Payton certainly considers himself a Parcells guy if you have any doubts (even though he didn’t start with Parcells). In terms of actual winning, Parcells remains the ultimate boss.

I also believe Parcells is the best coach of the post-merger NFL.  Most of the top coaches did it with one team.  Parcells turned around every team he coached.  He even turned around the Dolphins while in the front office.  

[BillsShredder83]

14 hours ago, Lost said:

People who have coaching trees are innovators of the game.   McD is a good leader but he hasn't changed the game in any meaningful way that others will follow.  

I actually dig the OP.  Interesting point being made about how others perform in your absence, and a great way for ppl in management roles or pushing to obtain that type of role.

 

With that said, I think the bolded is a very unfair way to evaluate a coach.  If you're trying to evaluate/differentiate between a handful of guys jockeying for GOAT HC?  That'd be a great evaluator.  If you're trying to figure out if you have a "good" HC or not, this is a pretty horrible measuring stick.  There's been a lot of elite HC's, but only a handful that have had a coaching tree, let alone a successful coaching tree.

 

Belicheck is considered in the conversation for GOAT (less so now than 5 years ago).  Even if you went back 5-8 years ago and used this as a measuring stick for him, it would've shown us what we know better today.  The only asterisk I'd add there is he was such an arrogant s***head, that I think he intentionally gatekept his best trademark secrets, so that nobody could go on to become competitive against him elsewhere down the road. Basically, set them up for failure by omission.  But again, thats an ugly selfish trait to have, and kinda reverts back to what we know better about him now.

[bigK14094]

Daboll?

[GerstAusGosheim]

14 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

With his winning record, if McD gets fired by Pegula, someone else will hire him as a HC. 

 

Every year he fails to make the Super Bowl with an MVP level QB, that likelihood gets smaller.   

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, boater said:

 

I don't understand what you think a coaching tree is?

• your first paragraph makes it seem all about approach to football (that is what I think of with a coaching tree). Such as the Walsh/Holmgrem/Reid offense.
• your second paragraph makes it seem about people's leadership relationships and affinity toward one another. Who worked for whom.

If Dabs or Brady are not leadership-influenced by McD as you suggest, where do you put them on the chart? Are they islands to themselves? Or do you put them where best fits their football philosophy?

 

Eh, coaching tree is a nebulous concept. Therefore a discussion that tries to pigeon hole coaches and make judgements from a coaching tree is a futile exercise.

 

 

 

 

You had me at nebulous.

[GerstAusGosheim]

13 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Ending a 17 year playoff drought is not changing the game?

 

No, going 9–7 and needing a miracle to back into the playoffs is not changing the game. That was an awesome moment for our club and fans, and we'll always be grateful for it. 
 

Now, trading the Mahomes pick to Andy to kick off the next great dynasty... that’s changing the game.

 

Blowing 13 seconds and our best chance at a Super Bowl... that’s changing the game.
 

Not giving your unicorn, MVP-caliber QB the weapons he needs to finally get to the Super Bowl...that's changing the game.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

2 hours ago, Fleezoid said:

I think this is more appropriate:

 

 

McDermott certainly has cultivated "airing of grievances."

There's a whole lot of things during a game that he finds "distracting"...🤔

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

26 minutes ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

 

No, going 9–7 and needing a miracle to back into the playoffs is not changing the game. That was an awesome moment for our club and fans, and we'll always be grateful for it. 
 

Now, trading the Mahomes pick to Andy to kick off the next great dynasty... that’s changing the game.

 

Blowing 13 seconds and our best chance at a Super Bowl... that’s changing the game.
 

Not giving your unicorn, MVP-caliber QB the weapons he needs to finally get to the Super Bowl...that's changing the game.

Miracle ? The Bills handled business against Miami in week 17 and won the necessary games to get in as the Wildcard. Only because it was one of the last games of the regular season the Bengals game was so dramatic. It would’ve been the same result if it happened in week 9. 
 

I don’t think people hear how difficult it is to change the culture of a historically losing franchise. Go ask the Jets how much they would love a coach like McDermott. I get the criticism, but I hate when people try to take away his accomplishments.