Training Camp Day 2 July 24, 2025

[Ballsy]

17 minutes ago, 26TrapDraw said:

This offense can move the ball and score on anyone on the planet anytime they want.

This offense can move the ball and score on anyone on the planet much of the time.  Fixed that for you.  We all remember the last drive in AFC champshionship game where they could not move the ball and score and they definitely wanted to.

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, BillytheKid said:

He is more accurate than a lot of people seem to think. He has the most big time throws of over 20 yards in the league. 
Completion percentage doesn’t really tell the whole story. Think it’s way overblown on this board. 
I watch every single snap of every single NFL game every week of the year and every quarterback misses plenty of deep throws. 
 

Most of you guys don’t watch enough of the other QB’s from week to week. 
 

He was ranked as the 3rd best in the league last year according to PFF 

 

Highest Deep (20-Plus Yards) PFF Passing Grades in NFL in 2024

QBDeep PFF Passing Grade

Russell Wilson97.3

Derek Carr95.6

Josh Allen95.4

Geno Smith95.1

Bryce Young94.6

This isn't what the topic is though. Stats tend to do a very poor job at measuring the topic because of Allen. I don't have a horse in this race besides logic. Allen is generating an absurd amount of off schedule plays 20 yards or more downfield. Heck, he's doing it 40 yards or more downfield at times. The call out people have on Josh is can he hit a schemed deep ball 30-50 yards downfield in stride. The sort of play Bo Nix and Denver had to go up 7-0 in the wild card game or the sort of play JP Losman and Lee Evans did so well. It is a unique throw for a QB and we really don't have a lot of WR who do it well or even gain the separation. Ultimately I don't know the answer. 

Edited July 24 by Mikie2times

[Buffalo4Life01]

18 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Not many balls throughout and NFL season from any quarterbacks travel 50 yards in air lol

 

In fact Josh Allen absolutely has the most 50 yard air completions since he entered the league

I think what he is trying to say is only what we have all noticed over the duration of his career with our own eyes.  On what most people refer to as 'bombs', Allen struggles with giving his receiver a catchable ball.  Most of the time he doesn't put enough air under it and he overthrows his target or when he puts the ball slightly off target to either side, again, not enough air under the ball so it's very difficult for the receiver to track it and reposition his body to make the catch.  No one is saying Allen can't throw a deep pass well.  He throws those 15-30 yard frozen ropes on target as well or better than any QB in the league.  It's the 'bomb's that he has always really struggled with.  

[Jauronimo]

48 minutes ago, Dan said:

So in other words, those facts don’t fit your preconceived opinion… therefore we must move the goal posts and discount them and rely on your eye test. 

There are different deep throws and Josh excels in most of them.  Deep posts, deep corner we've seen him hit time and time again.  Vertical deep routes on the sideline is something I think he has been inconsistent with his entire career.  

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

The issue I have with this sentiment and these numbers is that in this day and age I don't think when people talk "deep ball" they are discussing 20 yard pass plays. 

 

You can quantify it any way that it needs to be sugar coated to save face for Josh, but he is not accurate on passes that are truly deep down field. I'm talking 40-50 yards. Moon balls as it were. Now granted the further the target the slimmer the window to hit it. And passes that deep require the ability of the WR to track it. But more often than not it seems like Josh is so scared to under throw and get picked off (arm punt) that he overthrows the target range by a fair amount. 

the point is nobody is accurate on passes that are deep down field. it's a low percentage throw

 

and if you only watch the highlights of other games...those are the ones they tend to show

[YattaOkasan]

10 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

This isn't what the topic is though. Stats tend to do a very poor job at measuring the topic because of Allen. I don't have a horse in this race besides logic. Allen is generating an absurd amount of off schedule plays 20 yards or more downfield. Heck, he's doing it 40 yards or more downfield at times. The call out people have on Josh is can he hit a schemed deep ball 30-50 yards downfield in stride. The sort of play Bo Nix and Denver had to go up 7-0 in the wild card game or the sort of play JP Losman and Lee Evans did so well. It is a unique throw for a QB and we really don't have a lot of WR who do it well or even gain the separation. Ultimately I don't know the answer. 

Plenty of schemed up deep balls in this video.  Note Franklin was like blown coverage wide open on the Bo Nix TD.  Josh has plenty of better deep throws that are in scheme.  If the point is he did worse at these types of throw this past year, then I agree.  However, Josh has now shown he can fix whatever problem he focuses on (best historical season of % negative plays!!!!) including in 2020 when he originally fixed his deep ball issues.  

[Don Otreply]

36 minutes ago, BearNorth said:

Claire Lee Chennault.  Spelling is quite a bit different.  Chennault's 2nd wife was Chinese and a prominent figure in the China Lobby before Nixon recognized them in the 70's.

Yup, I know that, I was trying to do a Jack Nickolas family joke, I guess I failed lol,

[Mikie2times]

12 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Plenty of schemed up deep balls in this video.  Note Franklin was like blown coverage wide open on the Bo Nix TD.  Josh has plenty of better deep throws that are in scheme.  If the point is he did worse at these types of throw this past year, then I agree.  However, Josh has now shown he can fix whatever problem he focuses on (best historical season of % negative plays!!!!) including in 2020 when he originally fixed his deep ball issues.  

Ask somebody else the point. I don't have a horse in the race outside saying how he does on 20+ yard passes isn't doing a lot.  If I had to guess, I would say he was better at these throws earlier in his career.  

Edited July 24 by Mikie2times

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Yes.  😁

 

But you realize these aren't the same thing, right?  Josh has not been good connecting on Go routes his entire career.   There are various reasons for that, including the winds in the stadium where the team plays half their games and the fact that he really hasn't had a WR exceptional at running those routes, tracking and adjusting on the ball, and turning on an extra gear when needed.  

 

On the other hand, Josh has been one of the most accurate QB in the league at 20+ air yard passes.  I think he was 5th or 6th last season, 10th or so in 2023 - right after Mahomes.

[Jauronimo]

11 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Ask somebody else the point. I don't have a horse in the race outside saying how he does on 20+ yard passes isn't doing a lot.  If I had to guess, I would say he was better at these throws earlier in his career.  

He wasn't.

[Mikie2times]

2 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

He wasn't.

Good to know

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, RichRiderBills said:

Shenault really needs to be out there. He's no lock and I hope he realizes that. 

I don’t think he has much of a chance tbh

[Lafromboise]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

This isn't what the topic is though. Stats tend to do a very poor job at measuring the topic because of Allen. I don't have a horse in this race besides logic. Allen is generating an absurd amount of off schedule plays 20 yards or more downfield. Heck, he's doing it 40 yards or more downfield at times. The call out people have on Josh is can he hit a schemed deep ball 30-50 yards downfield in stride. The sort of play Bo Nix and Denver had to go up 7-0 in the wild card game or the sort of play JP Losman and Lee Evans did so well. It is a unique throw for a QB and we really don't have a lot of WR who do it well or even gain the separation. Ultimately I don't know the answer. 

Yup. I was just thinking in my head how lethal jp to lee was on go routes. Check out the Houston game in 06. Absolutely beautiful perfect in stride.

 

https://youtu.be/I2h8y9IL6Dg?si=_GAyfKUaemYmmyHF those first two long balls aren't what josh is super good at.

Edited July 24 by Lafromboise

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Few thoughts of mine from this string of tweets. 

 

1. Shavers is one to watch. I've said all of seasons he has a legitimate shot at the 53. I stand by that. Seems like a guy that can catch a few passes, but play STs, and Finn in that Kumerow/Sherfield/Hollins role from years past. He can carve a role for himself. 

 

2. Bishop seeing so much with the 1s this early isn't a bad thing. But I'm not reading into it too much just yet. He could still take the starting job if he stays healthy and shows well. And it looks like he's being given the opportunity. 

 

3. Good day for Keon after a bad day 1. But this is who I expect him to be. He will have some really good games this year. He will disappear in a few games this year. I don't see him week in and week out being dominant...but he will flash. 

 

4. I continue to say it. Grable over Van Demark is more about Grables ability to play both tackle spots equally as opposed to RVD that is really solid at LT but equally shaky at RT. Seeing Van Demark traded wouldn't shock me. Buffalo values position flexibility on the line and that's something he's been missing to this point. A lot will depend on health of the lineman at the end of PS. But we are ridiculously deep at OL. 

 

 

If you keep Shavers which WR do you cut or are you keeping 6? If so what other position group loses a player?

53 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

But you realize these aren't the same thing, right?  Josh has not been good connecting on Go routes his entire career.   There are various reasons for that, including the winds in the stadium where the team plays half their games and the fact that he really hasn't had a WR exceptional at running those routes, tracking and adjusting on the ball, and turning on an extra gear when needed.  

 

On the other hand, Josh has been one of the most accurate QB in the league at 20+ air yard passes.  I think he was 5th or 6th last season, 10th or so in 2023 - right after Mahomes.

Josh will go down as the best QB in NFL history on intermediate to deep passes. His arm strength is off the charts.  As you said he just doesn't have the ability to put air under the ball like Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson.  That and occasionally making a terrible throw on a WR screen are his only flaws.

[fergie's ire]

2 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

No. In other words the data provided does not match what most people are talking about when they talk "deep ball". It's not even comparing apples to oranges. Its like comparing apples to drywall screws.

 

And yes, good old fashioned eyeball tests are still the best method. Data can be used to support what you see, of course. But data without proper context is often times misleading.

Yes, and, for example, he throws the best low arc deep pass I've ever seen.  It's not on a line, exactly, but just has a little hump back trajectory.  I think he threw one over Derrell Revis...to Hollins, I think, but he can get it over a DB even when a receiver is covered and he can throw those 40 or 50 yards...but what we are talking about is that high arching pass that drops in that Russell Wilson has been so good at and that Jayden Daniels was so good at last year.

[Pete]

8 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

If you keep Shavers which WR do you cut or are you keeping 6? If so what other position group loses a player?

Josh will go down as the best QB in NFL history on intermediate to deep passes. His arm strength is off the charts.  As you said he just doesn't have the ability to put air under the ball like Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson.  That and occasionally making a terrible throw on a WR screen are his only flaws.

Virgil is the 6th WR.  I’m a big Shavers fan, but Virgil offers more at ST and has more speed.  Virgil has been starting Gunner, and that’s fast way to roster spot.  Keeping 6 WR is going to make DB and OL final cuts.  IMO Beane makes a trade or two before Final Roster.  Beane is not going to give away DB and OL, and there is only so many roster spots 

[BuffaloBillyG]

23 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

If you keep Shavers which WR do you cut or are you keeping 6? If so what other position group loses a player?

Josh will go down as the best QB in NFL history on intermediate to deep passes. His arm strength is off the charts.  As you said he just doesn't have the ability to put air under the ball like Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson.  That and occasionally making a terrible throw on a WR screen are his only flaws.

In that scenario I would be keeping 6. Most likely it would come at the expense of Codrignton if he gets beat out for the return job. 

[Ray Finkel]

6 hours ago, syhuang said:

 

Eric Ciano’s fault

[HappyDays]

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Virgil is the 6th WR.  I’m a big Shavers fan, but Virgil offers more at ST and has more speed.  Virgil has been starting Gunner, and that’s fast way to roster spot.  Keeping 6 WR is going to make DB and OL final cuts.  IMO Beane makes a trade or two before Final Roster.  Beane is not going to give away DB and OL, and there is only so many roster spots 

With the versatility of their OL I could see them trying to get away with carrying one less. I can't see less than 3 TEs. Honestly I'd carry one less LB. They so rarely play more than 2. 

My crusade to not have a FB on the team looks like it will never come to fruition.