Diggs' Drama

[BillsVet]

56 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Yes, mixed. As for having to go all the way back to Josh’s second season, are we not supposed to judge Beane on his entire body of work? This is not a defense of Beane in the least, as he has more than his share of warts, but there is no denying that Brown and Beasley were solid FA signings at the WR position. 

 

6 off-seasons ago is an eternity in NFL years.  And then to pay then-market rate for UFA WR's is not the coup you think it is. 

Beane's best WR acquisitions were in trade since then. 

 

  

 

 

[BullBuchanan]

18 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

No one's talking about historical draft evidence, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.    

 

The issue is Beane's poor UFA WR signings which is his response to insisting at not taking them in the draft.    

 

Every draft pick is a gamble.  I've been hearing for years on this board how the draft is a "crap-shoot" because there's no predictability to whether a pick will succeed.

 

OK.  You pay a GM and his front office to get it right...as they did with Josh.  You don't pay them to avoid something for years because it's scary.  

 

People who want things guaranteed in life before making the decision are living in another universe.  I suspect there are more every day who are scared.  Time to put on big-boy pants.   

lmao. You're directly complaining about Beane not drafting WRs, and the reason he doesn't IS draft history. Variance is a MASSIVE factor.


You say "you pay a GM and his front office to get it right", but you don't seem to know what "right" means. There's no crystal ball. Beane doesn't know anything that most other GMs don't, nor does any other GM. They all go out and rank the same players, and they're going to rank them pretty similarly. Whether or not the player turns out isn't typically determined by things a GM, and especially scouts, can control. They can select the best prospect in a generation, like we once did with Sammy Watkins, and they can still bust. Once they're in the building, their job is done. You can slam our management all you like for Sammy being a bust, but you know if we didn't take him he was going in the next couple of picks right? Eventually, every team had a spot they would have taken him, and for most it probably would have been very high.

You give Beane credit for Allen like he knew he'd become the best player in the league. Do you think he didn't have other QBs on his board? Allen was a disaster his first two years in the league and folks praise Beane for the pick when it required the single biggest ascendancy in NFL history from year 2 to 3. People give GMs way too much credit and slam them undeservedly for things outside of their control. What should matter is the process, not whether or not luck fell in your favor. Once upon a time people slammed the drafting of Sam Darnold and Baker Mayfield like their GMs didn't know what they were doing, and last season they were both monsters.

Drafting isn't about getting the "right" player, because you never know who that's going to be. Do you think Coleman was the only WR on the Bills board, and if he gets taken before us they just pack up their bags and go home? They probably have 30 WRs on their board, and it all comes down to their internal process and putting the right value on a player and hoping, just hoping, that the biggest swings connect.

[4merper4mer]

6 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

The date of the trade isn’t important—-obviously the Bills would trade AFTER the draft. Lol

 

But yes we agree Jefferson would have available for Beane to make a simple decision at 22.  
 

The rest of your post is indecipherable and otherwise not on point. 

The date of the trade is not important?  The Bills should know, a month in advance of the trade, the intentions of the 31 other teams?  Shirley you can’t be serious.  Did the other teams even know their own intentions that point.  
 

If the Raiders had selected Jefferson and the Vikings took Ruggs, how would you frame your argument about the trade for Diggs being a poor decision?

Edited September 3 by 4merper4mer

[K-9]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

6 off-seasons ago is an eternity in NFL years.  And then to pay then-market rate for UFA WR's is not the coup you think it is. 

Beane's best WR acquisitions were in trade since then. 

 

  

 

 

You seem to think I’m arguing in defense of Beane, which I’m not. If you want to judge him on a portion of his body of work, fine. I agree his best WR adds were in trades since they were acquired, but Brown and Beasley were two good FA WR acquisitions, regardless. And we still need to see how Palmer and Moore end up doing. 

[djp14150]

7 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

lmao. You're directly complaining about Beane not drafting WRs, and the reason he doesn't IS draft history. Variance is a MASSIVE factor.


You say "you pay a GM and his front office to get it right", but you don't seem to know what "right" means. There's no crystal ball. Beane doesn't know anything that most other GMs don't, nor does any other GM. They all go out and rank the same players, and they're going to rank them pretty similarly. Whether or not the player turns out isn't typically determined by things a GM, and especially scouts, can control. They can select the best prospect in a generation, like we once did with Sammy Watkins, and they can still bust. Once they're in the building, their job is done. You can slam our management all you like for Sammy being a bust, but you know if we didn't take him he was going in the next couple of picks right? Eventually, every team had a spot they would have taken him, and for most it probably would have been very high.

You give Beane credit for Allen like he knew he'd become the best player in the league. Do you think he didn't have other QBs on his board? Allen was a disaster his first two years in the league and folks praise Beane for the pick when it required the single biggest ascendancy in NFL history from year 2 to 3. People give GMs way too much credit and slam them undeservedly for things outside of their control. What should matter is the process, not whether or not luck fell in your favor. Once upon a time people slammed the drafting of Sam Darnold and Baker Mayfield like their GMs didn't know what they were doing, and last season they were both monsters.

Drafting isn't about getting the "right" player, because you never know who that's going to be. Do you think Coleman was the only WR on the Bills board, and if he gets taken before us they just pack up their bags and go home? They probably have 30 WRs on their board, and it all comes down to their internal process and putting the right value on a player and hoping, just hoping, that the biggest swings connect.

I generally agree with you...

 

Know draft rating boards they fo factor in system fit.  Buffalo playing a 4-3 D they are downgrading players whk might only be a 3-4 fit. Similarly roster needs factor in. Buffalo having Allen isn't using a 1/3 day pick  on a QB now.

 

With Watkins it was injuries that did him jn.

 

Others its just not doing well enough at the pro level.

 

What's not there yet in scouting is the ability to measure the player alone vs teammate effects

 

We've seen players drafted high that suck but then go to a new team and succeeed.  Success in league is so heavily dependant on system fit.

 

[BillsFanForever19]

8 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

With Watkins it was injuries that did him jn.

 

It was a lot more than injuries that did Watkins in. He would party hard with Drugs and Alcohol all night into the morning and show up to Training Camp practices still drunk and high. And he had undiagnosed mental health issues. 

 

What he was able to do for a few years with the problems he had and knowing how talented he was, it's a wild thought to think of how good he could have been.

[Mr. WEO]

15 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

The date of the trade is not important?  The Bills should know, a month in advance of the trade, the intentions of the 31 other teams?  Shirley you can’t be serious.  Did the other teams even know their own intentions that point.  
 

If the Raiders had selected Jefferson and the Vikings took Ruggs, how would you frame your argument about the trade for Diggs being a poor decision?

Trades in the weeks before the draft happen. a month before the draft, every team should have a very solid idea of how their first round board looks like.  In this draft, it was loaded with 1st round talent at WR. Everyone understood this.  Certainly the Vikings did—they were completely willing to offload a top veteran in his prime in order to likely pick a rookie replacement.  This is overwhelmingly obvious.
CLEARLY, they  telegraphed, a month before the draft, “their own intentions” for the draft.  
 

you keep mentioning Ruggs.  The obvious response is that Jefferson was infinitely more likely to become a superstar than Ruggs would become a convict. Had Ruggs not made that very poor decision he could have been, like Jefferson, a young star on the Bills. 

[Mr. WEO]

20 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

How were they left empty handed? They got a 2nd round pick for 2025 which isn't a bad return and then they immediately drafted Coleman last year - which in theory replaces Diggs.

there is only alternative reality where a Coleman replaces a Diggs.  
 

in that trade the Vikings got Jefferson and the Bills got a 4 year rental of Diggs (and huge dead cap) and Coleman, who may or may not be a really good WR2. 

[BullBuchanan]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

there is only alternative reality where a Coleman replaces a Diggs.  
 

in that trade the Vikings got Jefferson and the Bills got a 4 year rental of Diggs (and huge dead cap) and Coleman, who may or may not be a really good WR2. 

And what have the vikings done with it? In what world is 4 years a "rental"? That's a whole career for the average NFL player. Diggs is the #4 all-time receiving leader in Buffalo Bills history.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

And what have the vikings done with it? In what world is 4 years a "rental"? That's a whole career for the average NFL player. Diggs is the #4 all-time receiving leader in Buffalo Bills history.

 

With it, the Vikings got a a cheap WR who had more yards in 4 years (his first 4) with Kirk Cousins (I'll throw in another 1500+ with Sam Arnold) than Diggs  had with future HOFer Josh Allen.  Plus, he's still on their roster.  Diggs was essentially a rental as they got rid of him before his contract was up.  Now he's bouncing around the league.   Also, the commonly cited figure of "3 years average career for an NFL player" includes any guy who got a single paycheck---including countless camp cuts who never would play a regular season game. 

 

A guy here for 4 seasons and is a franchise #4 all time with under 5400 yards is an indictment on this franchise's abuse of the WR position (certainly in the draft) historically.

 

 

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

With it, the Vikings got a a cheap WR who had more yards in 4 years (his first 4) with Kirk Cousins (I'll throw in another 1500+ with Sam Arnold) than Diggs  had with future HOFer Josh Allen.  Plus, he's still on their roster.  Diggs was essentially a rental as they got rid of him before his contract was up.  Now he's bouncing around the league.   Also, the commonly cited figure of "3 years average career for an NFL player" includes any guy who got a single paycheck---including countless camp cuts who never would play a regular season game. 

 

A guy here for 4 seasons and is a franchise #4 all time with under 5400 yards is an indictment on this franchise's abuse of the WR position (certainly in the draft) historically.

 

 

You're really stuck on this "4 year rental" thing. I'll take 4 elite years in the prime of a player any day. Also, not sure why you'd try to downplay his stats with Cousins, who has had highly prolific passing seasons that have eclipsed Allen's career best passing totals.

Jefferson is making $40M a year now. Not sure it matters at this point that they got a good deal on drafting him.

Edited September 3 by BullBuchanan

[GaryPinC]

22 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

lmao. You're directly complaining about Beane not drafting WRs, and the reason he doesn't IS draft history. Variance is a MASSIVE factor.


You say "you pay a GM and his front office to get it right", but you don't seem to know what "right" means. There's no crystal ball. Beane doesn't know anything that most other GMs don't, nor does any other GM. They all go out and rank the same players, and they're going to rank them pretty similarly. Whether or not the player turns out isn't typically determined by things a GM, and especially scouts, can control. They can select the best prospect in a generation, like we once did with Sammy Watkins, and they can still bust. Once they're in the building, their job is done. You can slam our management all you like for Sammy being a bust, but you know if we didn't take him he was going in the next couple of picks right? Eventually, every team had a spot they would have taken him, and for most it probably would have been very high.

You give Beane credit for Allen like he knew he'd become the best player in the league. Do you think he didn't have other QBs on his board? Allen was a disaster his first two years in the league and folks praise Beane for the pick when it required the single biggest ascendancy in NFL history from year 2 to 3. People give GMs way too much credit and slam them undeservedly for things outside of their control. What should matter is the process, not whether or not luck fell in your favor. Once upon a time people slammed the drafting of Sam Darnold and Baker Mayfield like their GMs didn't know what they were doing, and last season they were both monsters.

Drafting isn't about getting the "right" player, because you never know who that's going to be. Do you think Coleman was the only WR on the Bills board, and if he gets taken before us they just pack up their bags and go home? They probably have 30 WRs on their board, and it all comes down to their internal process and putting the right value on a player and hoping, just hoping, that the biggest swings connect.

I'm rather confused by your trains of thought, you almost seem to be saying GMs all have similar info and rankings and at that point it becomes a crap shoot?  Am I understanding you correctly?

 

WRT Beane picking Allen, for me, he does deserve credit for drafting Allen and having him at or near the top of the list.  Two reasons why.  1.  His overall college game film was not that impressive in terms of cerebral ability, he made a lot of really dumb decisions.  2.  He was very raw, as we all know, and I'm sure you know a lot of Beane's final decision rested on their trip to Wyoming and interactions with him.  They saw his competitive fire, his leadership, his charisma.  I'm sure they also tested his mental acuity.

 

Contrast that to the Jets drafting Christian Hackenburg, as a Penn State fan I can assure you they failed to do this type of extra look into him.

 

Beane made the effort to carefully examine the entire picture, and selected an impact starter for the franchise.  And that's what you pay a GM to do.  Figure out how to sift through similar information, dig deeper, and wean the impact players from the out-of-the league within 5 years.  That's my get it "right".

 

I would also say that I understand you consider Allen's first two years a disaster and then some massive improvement in year 3, but I respectfully saw him much differently those first two years.  I saw a QB who had some individual disastrous mistakes because of an over-aggressive downfield do-it-all mentality but that the rest was shining brightly.  I saw him starting to mature out of this  his second year, and knew his drive to succeed would lead him to one of the top dogs in the league.  

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

You're really stuck on this "4 year rental" thing. I'll take 4 elite years in the prime of a player any day. Also, not sure why you'd try to downplay his stats with Cousins, who has had highly prolific passing seasons that have eclipsed Allen's career best passing totals.

Jefferson is making $40M a year now. Not sure it matters at this point that they got a good deal on drafting him.

The point was getting Jefferson with Allen on a rookie deal vs known head case Diggs who was unlikely to last the rest of his career as a Bills player because of this (and who cost 30 mil not to be in Buffalo last year).  

[blacklabel]

Yeesh. I regret checking in on this thread lol. 

[Walking Tall]

I’d love to hear what came out of Diggs mouth the first time he saw this…

 

 

[PonyBoy]

7 hours ago, Walking Tall said:

I’d love to hear what came out of Diggs mouth the first time he saw this…

 

 

 

For fun, someone on this board should do a caption this picture!

 

Drinking a Pepsi with JJ...I can Digg it! 😃

[DD4Bills]

New Daddy-to-be...

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/music/articles/cardi-b-expecting-baby-stefon-122031306.html

[Nephilim17]

36 minutes ago, DD4Bills said:

New Daddy-to-be...

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/music/articles/cardi-b-expecting-baby-stefon-122031306.html

Congrats to them both. I'm sure Steph will be able to relate to the child.

[KingBoots8]

1 hour ago, DD4Bills said:

New Daddy-to-be...

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/music/articles/cardi-b-expecting-baby-stefon-122031306.html

For their gender reveal they will have color coordinated cocaine

[boyst]

may we hope that child grows up knowing love and support from both of his or her parents.