PSL Pricing/Seat Selection Discussion

[papazoid]

this is my current understanding. i have not met with the bills yet to confirm any of these answers

 

If a the PSL is purchased and financed over a 10 year period, and the buyer defaults, dies, changes their mind, etc.

(IF YOU FAIL TO PURCHASE TIX, YOU LOSE THE PSL. the bills can resell it. you must sell your PSL before deciding to stop buying tix)

 

Is that PSL re-sold at original cost or is it sold for the balance owed? 

( YOU LIST IT ON A SPECIFIC AFTER MARKET FOR PSL's TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER. could be higher, guessing likely lower)

If the PSL is paid in full, but the owner elects not to renew season tickets, what then?

(YOU FORFEIT THE PSL. best to sell the PSL before not renewing)

 

Does the PSL owner still retain ‘ownership’ of those seats but the Bills can sell tickets for them?   

(NO, ownership reverts back to bills. you of course can sell individual games on the NFL TICKETEXCHANGE....but expect a crackdown on selling most like that. see the letter the SABRES sent to season ticket holders who sell half or more. they must buy a NY state Broker license for about $5,000)

 

Can owners of PSLs sell them privately or do they have to go back to the Bills? 

(YOU SELL THEM PRIVATELY ON A PSL MARKET PLACE) guessing there will be a way to sell them directly to a friend or family member bypassing the PSL marketplace.

 

 

Edited March 30 by papazoid

[Kirby Jackson]

10 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Why can't they just charge PSLs to non-New York taxpayers?

Because that won’t raise the $200m that they’re looking for

[Just Jack]

2 hours ago, SoMAn said:

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but I’m not reading through 93 pages hoping to see the answer….

If a the PSL is purchased and financed over a 10 year period, and the buyer defaults, dies, changes their mind, etc.

If the PSL is paid in full, but the owner elects not to renew season tickets, what then? Does the PSL owner still retain ‘ownership’ of those seats but the Bills can sell tickets for them?  

 

The PSL owner loses their PSL and seats.  You need to keep buying seasons to keep your PSL.  

 

2 hours ago, SoMAn said:

Can owners of PSLs sell them privately or do they have to go back to the Bills? 

 

They can sell the PSL to someone else themselves.  Might not get what they paid for it though.  

NFL PSL Seat License Marketplace | Buy & Sell NFL Season Ticket Rights (pslsource.com)

[Punching Bag]

More  important will they act like the team called WTF will they try to sue people to continue payments?

 

I had a timeshare in Hawaii which threatened to take me to court / put on credit report when I stopped paying on it but it was a bluff.

[ProcessTruster]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Because that won’t raise the $200m that they’re looking for

the PSL and high tkt prices will have the lower bowl being 25-50% opposing team fans from the day the stadium opens, other than the division and warm weather games.   I've seen it in Baltimore, NYC and here in DC.   Gotta cover your costs somehow.   Folks are taking the $20-30k PSL and will resell games they are not interested in for as long as it takes to get their $ back.   I will be years.   

 

It is coming.   Elvis will be sitting right next to a guy with a Jets jersey on for f's sake.  

[Einstein]

11 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

How are the Bills gouging the taxpayers?  

Taxpayers have no obligation or need to purchase a PSL. It’s a voluntary choice to pay for entertainment.

I never said they were obligatory. You are falling into the same trap that Kirby did, moving the goalposts of the conversation.

 

I simply stated that they are not common in other business. It’s a racket that is found nearly exclusively in sports (and timeshares).

 

11 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

With regard to your item 2 above, I think it shows growth and maturity on your part to concur that PSLs are a fee, just as Ticketmaster charges a fee.  We are finding common ground.  

 

It is a fee - considering a fee is just a payment made in return for something - never said it wasn’t.

 

But it’s not the same as a ticket fee.

 

- PSL fees go to the originator (who also benefit from the ticket price AND the taxpayer money).

 

- Ticket fees go to a third party (unaffiliated with the originator) and that is the only revenue they collect. They do not receive the ticket price or the taxpayer money.

 

Two completely and fundamentally different items.

 

For any similar comparison to be made they must contain all three components: Taxpayer funded, taxpayer double dipped (PSL), then taxpayer purchases for tickets.

 

3 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Why can't they just charge PSLs to non-New York taxpayers?

 

They could. But that would remove a very large portion of the PSL money.

 

Why only single dip when you can double dip and get those taxpayers to pay for your stadium twice?

 

 

11 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

Your original Taco Bell example that started this whole discussion is not consistent with the reality of the Bills’ PSL and ticket process.  😆

 

Well, duh. That was the entire point. Did that really go over your head?

 

Edited March 30 by Einstein

[WotAGuy]

13 minutes ago, Einstein said:

I never said they were obligatory. You are falling into the same trap that Kirby did, moving the goalposts of the conversation.

 

I simply stated that they are not common in other business. It’s a racket that is found nearly exclusively in sports (and timeshares).

 

 

It is a fee - considering a fee is just a payment made in return for something - never said it wasn’t.

 

But it’s not the same as a ticket fee.

 

- PSL fees go to the originator (who also benefit from the ticket price AND the taxpayer money).

 

- Ticket fees go to a third party (unaffiliated with the originator) and that is the only revenue they collect. They do not receive the ticket price or the taxpayer money.

 

Two completely and fundamentally different items.

 

For any similar comparison to be made they must contain all three components: Taxpayer funded, taxpayer double dipped (PSL), then taxpayer purchases for tickets.

 

 

They could. But that would remove a very large portion of the PSL money.

 

Why only single dip when you can double dip and get those taxpayers to pay for your stadium twice?

 

 

 

Well, duh. That was the entire point. Did that really go over your head?

 

 

Weak. You’re running on fumes Einstein. I expected better from you. 

[Einstein]

Just now, WotAGuy said:

Weak. You’re running on fumes Einstein. I expected better from you. 

 

This is common in debate tactic. A final or semi-final dismissive phrase that lacks substance because the person can’t offer a meaningful rebuttal anymore.

 

When it’s pointed out, that person typically responds with something that straddles the lines of ad hominem, such as “I just can’t continue to get it through your thick head” or “Not much to say when you won’t understand”. It’s an attempt to dismiss the conversation by feigning intellectual exhaustion as they have no true counterpoint.

[RiotAct]

1 hour ago, Just Jack said:

 

The PSL owner loses their PSL and seats.  You need to keep buying seasons to keep your PSL.  

 

 

They can sell the PSL to someone else themselves.  Might not get what they paid for it though.  

NFL PSL Seat License Marketplace | Buy & Sell NFL Season Ticket Rights (pslsource.com)

LOL, half the stadium is available for the Jets.

[ProcessTruster]

55 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

LOL, half the stadium is available for the Jets.

Yeah it costs $400 for a crap ticket in Highmark.. I just go visit my daughter in NYC and pay $175 for a better seat in MetLife.   Half the stadium is Bills fans so its all good. 

 

The meaning of a "home game" will be diminishing league-wide in the next 5 - 10 years.   Roaming retirees following their team wherever they go + crazy PSLs/season tkt prices have largely watered down "home games" in 7 or 8 places already (Vegas, LA, NYC, DC, AZ, a few others). 

 

The only thing helping WNY is its not a travel destination so much plus it's freezing f ing cold for half the games.  

Edited March 30 by ProcessTruster

[Kirby Jackson]

2 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

the PSL and high tkt prices will have the lower bowl being 25-50% opposing team fans from the day the stadium opens, other than the division and warm weather games.   I've seen it in Baltimore, NYC and here in DC.   Gotta cover your costs somehow.   Folks are taking the $20-30k PSL and will resell games they are not interested in for as long as it takes to get their $ back.   I will be years.   

 

It is coming.   Elvis will be sitting right next to a guy with a Jets jersey on for f's sake.  

That’s not happening here. Those PSLs will be like $5K or less in Buffalo. There will be no more opposing fans in the new stadium than there are currently. It’s just not the makeup of this place. It’ll be 90%+ Bills fans at all times (as it always has been).

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, RiotAct said:

LOL, half the stadium is available for the Jets.

 

The Jets situation is exactly what people who purchase PSL’s right now are going to, unfortunately be in in a few years.

 

PSL’s that are worth approximately half of what they paid and ever increasing season ticket costs.

 

You see, once you buy (especially in the more expensive sections), they know they have you. They can double season ticket prices and you’ll be stuck. It’s a sunk cost and most people will not be willing to give up on their $5k-$10k PSL’s, so they will feel justified to pay the ever increasing season ticket rate.

[QCity]

2 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

the PSL and high tkt prices will have the lower bowl being 25-50% opposing team fans from the day the stadium opens

 

There's not going to be 50% opposing team fans in the lower bowl.

 

I know tempers are high, but the Chicken Little acts are getting out of control.

[Jrb1979]

2 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

There's not going to be 50% opposing team fans in the lower bowl.

 

I know tempers are high, but the Chicken Little acts are getting out of control.

Maybe not 50% but there will be more visiting fans than at the current stadium. 

[DieHardFan]

2 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

the PSL and high tkt prices will have the lower bowl being 25-50% opposing team fans from the day the stadium opens, other than the division and warm weather games.   I've seen it in Baltimore, NYC and here in DC.   Gotta cover your costs somehow.   Folks are taking the $20-30k PSL and will resell games they are not interested in for as long as it takes to get their $ back.   I will be years.   

 

It is coming.   Elvis will be sitting right next to a guy with a Jets jersey on for f's sake.  

Don't know where you are sitting but that's the CURRENT situation in many sections. Moved to S135 R5 two years ago. I have 4, typically sell 2 -3. Every game I stand and ask who in attendance is a STH sitting in their seat. Never got a response (could be no one wants to respond to a crazy but never see a familiar face).

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

Just boycott buying seasons. Tax payers funding Billionaires hobbies is bs to begin with.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

15 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

There's not going to be 50% opposing team fans in the lower bowl.

 

I know tempers are high, but the Chicken Little acts are getting out of control.

Listening to people trying to explain what they think is going to happen is annoying. The doom and gloom is back. The lack of understanding from some, combined with the Bills not providing much info has the chicken littles back out. I’ll go on record that 90%+ of the lower bowl will be Bills fans. The PSLs will ALL be snatched up by the current base/waiting list.  

[WotAGuy]

20 minutes ago, DieHardFan said:

Don't know where you are sitting but that's the CURRENT situation in many sections. Moved to S135 R5 two years ago. I have 4, typically sell 2 -3. Every game I stand and ask who in attendance is a STH sitting in their seat. Never got a response (could be no one wants to respond to a crazy but never see a familiar face).

So….you usually sell most of your tickets and are wondering why there aren’t many STH around you?  Think about that for a minute and get back to us. 😝

52 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

The Jets situation is exactly what people who purchase PSL’s right now are going to, unfortunately be in in a few years.

 

PSL’s that are worth approximately half of what they paid and ever increasing season ticket costs.

 

You see, once you buy (especially in the more expensive sections), they know they have you. They can double season ticket prices and you’ll be stuck. It’s a sunk cost and most people will not be willing to give up on their $5k-$10k PSL’s, so they will feel justified to pay the ever increasing season ticket rate.

There is definitely a sunk cost, but people can bail on them if need be.  
 

But don’t PSLs also have diminishing returns?  They have a fixed lifespan, so as the years go by, wouldn’t you expect the value to decrease as their usable life decreases?  

 

Also, the fortunes of the team will probably play a big role in the market value of PSLs; if the team goes on a championship run, wouldn’t you expect the value to be affected positively by that?

[Mike in Horseheads]

35 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

Listening to people trying to explain what they think is going to happen is annoying. The doom and gloom is back. The lack of understanding from some, combined with the Bills not providing much info has the chicken littles back out. I’ll go on record that 90%+ of the lower bowl will be Bills fans. The PSLs will ALL be snatched up by the current base/waiting list.  

The doom and gloom never left Kirby

[mrags]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

The Jets situation is exactly what people who purchase PSL’s right now are going to, unfortunately be in in a few years.

 

PSL’s that are worth approximately half of what they paid and ever increasing season ticket costs.

 

You see, once you buy (especially in the more expensive sections), they know they have you. They can double season ticket prices and you’ll be stuck. It’s a sunk cost and most people will not be willing to give up on their $5k-$10k PSL’s, so they will feel justified to pay the ever increasing season ticket rate.

Now this is an argument that I have not seen anyone make and it might very well end up being the case in Buffalo. You won’t see their ticket prices double overnight (at least not after the new stadium is built) but you will likely see a 5-10% increase in ticket prices jist about every year to every other year. They love to do the 10% increase in a season when we have one less game at home. This way your prices generally don’t go up because your paying for one less game, then the next season when you aren’t even thinking about it they are higher than you expected.