Kneeling 🧎‍♀️it down with 20 seconds left, one of the best QBs in thr league, and one TO

[Since1981]

"Ice kicker" TO.

You want to hold your  "kicker TO" for your big dog 17 to win at the end. 

McD is stuck in 1990's football. If you think about all the mistakes he makes 'game day'?  It's all premised upon a 1990's set of football assumptions. That's not 2023's NFL. 

[CaptnCoke11]

McDermott seems like a good guy.  I think he’s a good football coach but i don’t think he’s ever going to get this team over the hump.  I think the McDermott era has run its course here.  

[Meatloaf63]

16 hours ago, Bill Grundy said:

Because of the risk of interception and field position. 

 

20 seconds isn't a thing.  It's hysterical to make it one.

 

And if it is intercepted then this thread has a different title and the coach is called a moron. 

 

 

That’s why Kansas City is busy winning championships, and Super Bowls and we are sitting on the sidelines watching every year.

[Since1981]

7 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

McDermott seems like a good guy.  I think he’s a good football coach but i don’t think he’s ever going to get this team over the hump.  I think the McDermott era has run its course here.  

I think most everyone here agrees. He's a good person, decent coach, helped the Bills when they needed his style. There's a time and place for everything in life. He's made $8M this year, it's time to shift.

[Meatloaf63]

15 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

I agreed with the decision honestly. After that BAD interception Josh threw to give Philly the lead. He simply just couldn’t risk it. He took his chances in OT. 

That’s why you and McDermott will forever be conservative losers. Why the Chiefs will always be winners.

[starrymessenger]

I dont understand this fear of interception as a rationale for taking a knee. I mean isn’t there a risk like that whenever a QB throws a pass. To me this is all part of McD’s loser mentality. 

[Koufax]

Risk of conceding points is greater than chances of scoring points would be the rationale, and I lean slightly towards agreement.

 

If you are down at the wire (KC 13 seconds) the risk of conceding points is irrelevant.

[Freddie's Dead]

1st and puss.

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, Since1981 said:

I think most everyone here agrees. He's a good person, decent coach, helped the Bills when they needed his style. There's a time and place for everything in life. He's made $8M this year, it's time to shift.

 

And he'll continue to make his $8-10M/yr even after the Bills fire him, so no one should feel too bad for the guy.

4 minutes ago, Koufax said:

Risk of conceding points is greater than chances of scoring points would be the rationale, and I lean slightly towards agreement.

 

If you are down at the wire (KC 13 seconds) the risk of conceding points is irrelevant.

 

What was the thinking here then?

 

 

[starrymessenger]

2 minutes ago, Koufax said:

Risk of conceding points is greater than chances of scoring points would be the rationale, and I lean slightly towards agreement.

 

If you are down at the wire (KC 13 seconds) the risk of conceding points is irrelevant.

Josh has more completions than interceptions. You had a whole half left to play. Why bother ever throwing the ball. I mean it could get picked.

[RiotAct]

6 minutes ago, Koufax said:

Risk of conceding points is greater than chances of scoring points would be the rationale, and I lean slightly towards agreement.

 

If you are down at the wire (KC 13 seconds) the risk of conceding points is irrelevant.

Disagree wholeheartedly.  Pretty much a “must-win” game and, well, you know how we’ve fared in overtime the last 6 seasons.

[Koufax]

Just now, starrymessenger said:

Josh has more completions than interceptions. You had a whole half left to play. Why bother ever throwing the ball. I mean it could get picked.

 

Trying to get the ball 40 yards in 20 seconds with one time out involves at least one long developing play downfield against a deep safety prevent defense, so Josh's overall completion / interception numbers are irrelevant.

 

I think you can design a play that puts things in your favor, but getting the ball far enough down field that if it is picked you don't give up points, but it isn't necessarily simple. Strip sack and returnable INT both have a small percentage, and advancing the ball 40 yards in 20 seconds has a small percentage. So whichever path you take the likelihood the score changes is very very small.

3 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

Disagree wholeheartedly.  Pretty much a “must-win” game and, well, you know how we’ve fared in overtime the last 6 seasons.

 

"how we have fared in overtime the last 6 seasons" is one of the worst small irrelevant sample takes to make a future decision.

 

I'm all for the new age thing of going for 2 to win rather than 1 for overtime, when your chances of 2 are over 50/50 and your chances of winning in overtime are 50/50.

 

But I do not have any reason to think our overtime chances are less than 50/50, so the question should be does not taking a knee give you a larger chance of scoring points than conceding points. Again, that is a debatable point, but with one time out the risk level of advancing the ball far enough and quickly enough doesn't seem like a smart bet. Most likely irrelevant, but I think the chances of conceding points are probably slightly higher than the chances of scoring (maybe 3% something goes bad, 2% something goes great, and 95% nothing happens) 

[juno999]

17 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

I wouldn't fire him for the 20 seconds, though I agree with you but there are now two examples, where the QB of the Buffalo Bills played a nearly flawless football game. Over 400 yards and 4 TD's today and ended up losing because the defense couldn't get a stop. This is not just a two time thing, this has happened multiple times over his tenure in the 7 years he has been the Head Coach. Its his specialty, the defensive side of the ball. You expect a Defensive Specialist to be able to get a stop on top teams when your QB has literally played an almost perfect game.

 

I just can't with this guy anymore. He did his job. He took the Bills to heights they haven't been for the last 20 years before he came along but he isn't going to take this team to the Super Bowl. We will always fall short with him. He is not aggressive enough both allowing his offense to spread it out and go and his defense is well lets play soft until they get in range and hope for a mistake.

 

What I love about the Chiefs is they are aggressive on both sides and it has bitten them in the past but they are going to go down swinging all the time. Spags in that situation is literally bringing the house on defense over and over and over again and he's trying to get you to make a dumb decision or get a sack and fumble or a holding penalty to put you at a disadvantage. Reid goes for it when the opportunity presents.

McD has lost too many games where the Bills should have won.  It's just truly mind blowing how many different ways he finds to lose a game.  

He mismanages timeouts, plays soft defense, and overall too conservative.  His players get called for too many penalties, they miss assignments, drop too many balls, and too much miscommunication.  It's not all his fault but much of it is on him.  Time for a change.

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Honestly, as frustrating as it is, what impact did it ultimately have? We had plenty of chances to win the game in the 4th and couldn’t do it.

 

Would I love to see they trust one of the best Qbs in the nfl? Of course. But if they turn the ball over and gift the Eagles points, fans are killing him for that. I hate it but that is way bottom of the list of things that went wrong that game.

meh. I dont worry much about the fans killing me if I trust my guys and have properly coached them

 

Tell Josh to be incredibly safe and then make the eagles execute properly. 
 

put another way- you know with us having 1 timeout that the eagles will be guarding the boundary and deep ball. Don’t let them get in range in one play, and don’t let them get out for a second play. 
 

20 yard seam to Kincaid and if there’s a face mask or some penalty you are on the edge of a deep kick, if it goes boringly and you burn the timeout you have a Hail Mary and again force the eagles to execute. Josh feels any rush, just turtle and protect the ball. 
 

we keep talking about the 40 yards to get a kick but what about the very manageable throw or two to get 20 to put a ball in the end zone? 
 

make the eagles play on their heels and not mess up

Edited November 27, 2023 by NoSaint

[BillsFanSD]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Honestly, as frustrating as it is, what impact did it ultimately have? We had plenty of chances to win the game in the 4th and couldn’t do it.

 

Would I love to see they trust one of the best Qbs in the nfl? Of course. But if they turn the ball over and gift the Eagles points, fans are killing him for that. I hate it but that is way bottom of the list of things that went wrong that game.

Well, we ended up losing the game.  Worst case scenario is Josh gets pick-sixed and we lose in regulation -- same result.  If we're playing the "what impact did it ultimately have?" hindsight game, there was literally no downside to putting the ball in the air there.  We had a chance to win a game that we would go on to lose.

[DuckyBoys]

22 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

I dont understand this fear of interception as a rationale for taking a knee. I mean isn’t there a risk like that whenever a QB throws a pass. To me this is all part of McD’s loser mentality. 

he had Allen throw 51 times that game and carry it 9 more including 3rd down conversions repeatedly while trying to run clock on 1st and 2nd down yet didnt trust him there shows you who McDermott is

[starrymessenger]

4 minutes ago, Koufax said:

 

Trying to get the ball 40 yards in 20 seconds with one time out involves at least one long developing play downfield against a deep safety prevent defense, so Josh's overall completion / interception numbers are irrelevant.

 

I think you can design a play that puts things in your favor, but getting the ball far enough down field that if it is picked you don't give up points, but it isn't necessarily simple. Strip sack and returnable INT both have a small percentage, and advancing the ball 40 yards in 20 seconds has a small percentage. So whichever path you take the likelihood the score changes is very very small.

Should have had at least two time outs, but I wont dwell on it. Josh faces high safeties often. Its hardly a unique fact situation. Plus that D can be successfully attacked with plays that are relatively risk free. Screens and other flat routes and sometimes even in the middle of the field, time (and TOs) permitting. Our prevent defences get destroyed all the time.

What do you think Andy and Pat would have done? At the end of the day thats the diff between Andy and McD. McD is not the guy to be coaching a team led by a player like Allen. 

[NoSaint]

18 minutes ago, Koufax said:

Trying to get the ball 40 yards in 20 seconds with one time out involves at least one long developing play downfield against a deep safety prevent defense, so Josh's overall completion / interception numbers are irrelevant.

 

I think you can design a play that puts things in your favor, but getting the ball far enough down field that if it is picked you don't give up points, but it isn't necessarily simple. Strip sack and returnable INT both have a small percentage, and advancing the ball 40 yards in 20 seconds has a small percentage. So whichever path you take the likelihood the score changes is very very small.

 

"how we have fared in overtime the last 6 seasons" is one of the worst small irrelevant sample takes to make a future decision.

 

I'm all for the new age thing of going for 2 to win rather than 1 for overtime, when your chances of 2 are over 50/50 and your chances of winning in overtime are 50/50.

 

But I do not have any reason to think our overtime chances are less than 50/50, so the question should be does not taking a knee give you a larger chance of scoring points than conceding points. Again, that is a debatable point, but with one time out the risk level of advancing the ball far enough and quickly enough doesn't seem like a smart bet. Most likely irrelevant, but I think the chances of conceding points are probably slightly higher than the chances of scoring (maybe 3% something goes bad, 2% something goes great, and 95% nothing happens) 

what about getting the ball 20 yards to toss a Hail Mary? 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

what about getting the ball 20 yards to toss a Hail Mary? 

Wasn’t everyone just complaining about a Hail Mary to close out a half a mere 8 days ago lol a lot of the criticism on this board is wildly contradictory.  

[blacklabel]

I didn't care for the decision. There was enough time there to try, at least try. That doesn't really go a long way towards showing confidence in your offense, either. Should've let them try. 

 

Last Thanksgiving against the Lions. Tied at 25, ball on their own 25, 23 seconds to go and yeah, 3 TO's...but Josh fired a laser to Diggs on the first play, nearly 40 yards and bam, already in FG range. 

 

Needed to let them try. 

[NoSaint]

7 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

Should have had at least two time outs, but I wont dwell on it. Josh faces high safeties often. Its hardly a unique fact situation. Plus that D can be successfully attacked with plays that are relatively risk free. Screens and other flat routes and sometimes even in the middle of the field, time (and TOs) permitting. Our prevent defences get destroyed all the time.

What do you think Andy and Pat would have done? At the end of the day thats the diff between Andy and McD. McD is not the guy to be coaching a team led by a player like Allen. 

the timeout aside…. Make the db read a play, not slip on a wet field and make a clean penalty free tackle 

 

you have the advantage of being able to be very safe in your execution. Make it your safest call possible and let the players play

2 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Wasn’t everyone just complaining about a Hail Mary to close out a half a mere 8 days ago lol a lot of the criticism on this board is wildly contradictory.  

It’s weird that a large group on the internet is not always in consensus. 
 

that said, I think it was the 2-3 plays before the throw leaving us in a no man’s land where they couldn’t reach the end zone as the actual complaint from the wide majority, if you are trying to be honest

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

the timeout aside…. Make the db read a play, not slip on a wet field and make a clean penalty free tackle 

 

you have the advantage of being able to be very safe in your execution. Make it your safest call possible and let the players play

It’s weird that a large group on the internet is not always in consensus. 
 

that said, I think it was the 2-3 plays before the throw leaving us in a no man’s land where they couldn’t reach the end zone as the actual complaint from the wide majority, if you are trying to be honest

This isn’t that large of a group lol and I can absolutely understand the frustration but we are well into criticize everything when we lose regardless of if it is the right thing to do territory.  Not speaking about this specific kneel call…I think you can make a case for doing either…but I have read plenty  ‘the coaches should’ve done this what were they thinking’ type posts that were just absolutely insane this season 😂

[Herb]

20 hours ago, section122 said:

I mean this in all sincerity shut the ***** up

Coach?

[dave mcbride]

On 11/27/2023 at 1:59 PM, Koufax said:

 

Trying to get the ball 40 yards in 20 seconds with one time out involves at least one long developing play downfield against a deep safety prevent defense, so Josh's overall completion / interception numbers are irrelevant.

 

I think you can design a play that puts things in your favor, but getting the ball far enough down field that if it is picked you don't give up points, but it isn't necessarily simple. Strip sack and returnable INT both have a small percentage, and advancing the ball 40 yards in 20 seconds has a small percentage. So whichever path you take the likelihood the score changes is very very small.

 

"how we have fared in overtime the last 6 seasons" is one of the worst small irrelevant sample takes to make a future decision.

 

I'm all for the new age thing of going for 2 to win rather than 1 for overtime, when your chances of 2 are over 50/50 and your chances of winning in overtime are 50/50.

 

But I do not have any reason to think our overtime chances are less than 50/50, so the question should be does not taking a knee give you a larger chance of scoring points than conceding points. Again, that is a debatable point, but with one time out the risk level of advancing the ball far enough and quickly enough doesn't seem like a smart bet. Most likely irrelevant, but I think the chances of conceding points are probably slightly higher than the chances of scoring (maybe 3% something goes bad, 2% something goes great, and 95% nothing happens) 

They literally did it against Detroit last season. The got the ball at their own 25 yard line with 23 seconds and Bass kicked the game winner with 7 seconds left. And the Bills had been shredding the Eagles all night. Plus Allen is quite literally the least sacked QB in the league this season (tied for first with Mahomes with a 3.3 percent sack rate). So it's unlikely he's going to get sacked.

 

Last night, the Bears got the ball with 10 seconds and completed a pass to the Vikes 34, where the WR fumbled because he couldn't get out of bounds. But they didn't have any TOs, and the Bills did.

Edited November 28, 2023 by dave mcbride

[kkim0904]

If McD did not waste time out right before the FG attempt, we would have 2 time out with 20 seconds.

[Golden*Wheels]

Normally I'd be ok with it BUT we had good Josh rolling. F whatever happened to the stupid Jets on Friday. Just try. 

[90sBills]

On 11/26/2023 at 5:08 PM, Bill Grundy said:

Because of the risk of interception and field position. 

 

20 seconds isn't a thing.  It's hysterical to make it one.

 

And if it is intercepted then this thread has a different title and the coach is called a moron. 

 

 

You don’t think much of Allen then? KC scored on them with 13 secs. Then the following year scored with 17 secs before the half ended. They trusted their elite qb to get the job done. Why can’t the Bills? You sound like you agreed with the decision to not trust Allen. 

[90sBills]

On 11/26/2023 at 5:31 PM, thenorthremembers said:

Maybe if the QB has given the coach any confidence that he wouldnt throw the ball to the other team or the kicker had shown that he can kick a long field goal the coach would have went for it.   If Allen throws a int and loses the game everyone is on McDermott for going for it.

If this is really what McD thinks of Allen then it’s a problem. You have an elite qb. Let him try to win the game. Your qb is not some Jets scrub that would throw a Hail Mary pass 15 yds short of the endzone so it could be returned.