JT O'Sullivan QB School Video Breakdown of Allen in Week 8 against TB - some very interesting points

[Beck Water]

I just popped in to post this link - JT O'Sullivan did another Youtube on Baker Mayfield in this game, which I found fascinating from the POV of what did and what didn't work, in the Bills defensive coverage.

 

Check it out.

 

 

And I'll see if I can find the pre-snap look, because I'm finding the discussion of the Tampa coverage on that deep throw to Shakir fascinating. 

Thanks fellas!

 

32 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Based on their alignments and footwork they're playing, what I call, Special to the field (Trips Concept where you man 1 and play Quarters between the overhang and safety), but the field Safety is working skate footwork (he thinks he's playing 2). The boundary is playing a banjo (man concept). Safety has first in and corner has first out from 1 & 2 weak. Since first in went shallow Safety drops it off to the zone side and takes eyes across the field and picks up the final 3 player man to man (Diggs). Corner has first out which ends up being Cook on this play. Long-winded explanation to say the Field Safety is the one who should have been covering Shakir.

 

24 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Without the pre snap look you can't 100% call it a banjo concept because the screenshot isn't showing a boundary corner pressed and one off

 

I haven't watched the game back but it's not showing pre snap looks but banjo would have one off and one press pre snap 

 

These are all 3 seconds post snap

 

 

Presnap Look on the play in question

 

 

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, Trogdor said:

He threw it right into the much shorter DB.

 

I disagree.

 

This is what Allen is seeing (photo below). An open Kincaid with a large enough space between Allen and the free rusher to rifle a patented Josh Allen tomahawk missile, despite the tight alley.

 

I truly believe if this same scenario was attempted 10 times in a row, Allen completes at least 8 of them.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Trogdor said:

People are acting like he made some crazy play to tip the ball. 

 

Winfield jumps in the air and barely gets one hand (maybe even half a hand) on the ball. It was a good play by Winfield, and Allen probably should have just ate the sack, but as mentioned before, he knows he can make it work more times than not.

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Einstein

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

It’s a good initial assumption. The reason it can’t be 6 is because Winfield isn’t playing as a flat defender (which he’d have to be if it were 6). He doesn’t care about Cook working outside at all and instead only cares about the in-cut of 1 and getting his eyes across to the zone side to pick up the final 3.

I agree I don't think it's cover 6

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

I haven't watched the game back but it's not showing pre snap looks but banjo would have one off and one press pre snap 

 

These are all 3 seconds post snap

 

 

I agree, this is not a banjo call.

Im sticking with my original assessment that this is some subtype of Cover 3, with my best guess being Sky (just look at the down safety).

 

 

[HoofHearted]

8 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I agree, this is not a banjo call.

Im sticking with my original assessment that this is some subtype of Cover 3, with my best guess being Sky (just look at the down safety).

 

 

Not sure what you're referring to by saying Cover 3 Sky - Sky is just a term used to say you're playing with Safety force. Can't be Cover 3 though unless field Safety, field overhang, Boundary Safety, and Boundary Corner were all wrong which I'd find incredibly hard to believe.

[Einstein]

27 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Not sure what you're referring to by saying Cover 3 Sky - Sky is just a term used to say you're playing with Safety force. 

 

Correct.

 

The strong safety comes down to cover the flat. Which is exactly what we are seeing in the Tampa scheme.

 

 

Except the strong side is flipped.

 

 

To be honest it’s not even a question in my mind that this is some version of Cover 3 Sky.

 

Quote

Can't be Cover 3 though unless field Safety, field overhang, Boundary Safety, and Boundary Corner were all wrong 

 

Not sue what you mean by they would all be wrong. They’re all where they mostly should be if they’re running Cover 3.

 

.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Einstein

[HoofHearted]

Just now, Einstein said:

 

Correct.

 

The strong safety comes down to cover the flat. Which is exactly what we are seeing in the Tampa scheme.

 

 

Except the strong side is flipped.

 

 

 

He's not covering the flat though - otherwise he'd be working out with cook. Instead he squares up to the field playing a Final 3 technique.

[T master]

Who the H Is JT O'Sullivan ??? Must be a guy only known in very small circles .

[Einstein]

41 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

He's not covering the flat though - otherwise he'd be working out with cook. Instead he squares up to the field playing a Final 3 technique.

 

You’re right, but here is my hypothesis on why that is happening.

 

When the play first develops. He IS watching Cook and maintaining responsibility for the flat. If Allen throws it right now (pic below) to Cook, it’s the SS who is taking the flat tackle.

 

 

But as the play developers and Diggs crosses the field, the SS pattern matches and takes Diggs, while the weak side third comes down to cover the flat.

 

 

Which would basically be a Cover 3 Sky/Buzz with a pattern match, right?

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, T master said:

Who the H Is JT O'Sullivan ??? Must be a guy only known in very small circles .

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OSulJ.00.htm

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._T._O'Sullivan

 

Late round draft pick of the Saints who hung on in NFL for 8 years

 

Usually if a less-talented guy hangs in the NFL that long, it's because they know something

 

 

[HoofHearted]

4 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

You’re right, but here is my hypothesis on why that is happening.

 

When the play first develops. He IS watching Cook and maintaining responsibility for the flat. If Allen throws it right now (pic below) to Cook, it’s the SS who is taking the flat tackle.

 

 

But as the play developers and Diggs crosses the field, the SS pattern matches and takes Diggs, while the weak side third comes down to cover the flat.

 

 

Which would basically be a Cover 3 Sky/Buzz with a pattern match, right?

No, if it's 3 the boundary corner would never come down to cover the flat. He'd be punching high and looking for the first deep crosser which he never even looks for. Based on everything I'm seeing - alignment, footwork, drops, etc. it's Special to the field and man backside and they're just playing banjo backside because of the condensed split by 1. Field Safety is responsible for the deep over by Shakir.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

No, if it's 3 the boundary corner would never come down to cover the flat. 

 

Well that’s definitely not true. It’s how pattern matching with Cover 3 works. It wouldn’t be possible if the boundary didn’t move to cover the flat, since the SS is moving to cover the boundaries original deep 3rd he abandoned on the man route. It becomes Mable with the SS. Saban defenses do this all the time. 

 

Agree to disagree I guess. I don’t see any banjo here at all.

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Einstein

[HoofHearted]

57 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Well that’s definitely not true. It’s how pattern matching with Cover 3 works. It wouldn’t be possible if the boundary didn’t move to cover the flat, since the SS is moving to cover the boundaries original deep 3rd he abandoned on the man route. It becomes Mable with the SS. Saban defenses do this all the time. 

 

Agree to disagree I guess. I don’t see any banjo here at all.

Think you’re getting confused by what you’re reading about Sabans Mable coverage. The backside overhang (the Safety in our scenario) would have back out to the flat if they were playing Cover 3 which is what I’ve been trying to get across to you. His rules are back out to first crosser if he doesn’t get anything coming out from the backfield.

 

@Einstein that highlighted part of the diagram you posted is referring to how they’d play stacked receivers and isn’t saying the Safety would be vertical it’s saying they’d play a true 3 zone coverage to it.

Edited October 29, 2023 by HoofHearted

[BillsUberAlles]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

Well that’s definitely not true. It’s how pattern matching with Cover 3 works. It wouldn’t be possible if the boundary didn’t move to cover the flat, since the SS is moving to cover the boundaries original deep 3rd he abandoned on the man route. It becomes Mable with the SS. Saban defenses do this all the time. 

 

Agree to disagree I guess. I don’t see any banjo here at all.

 

 

So let me get this straight...you are trying to tell a former college defensive coordinator he doesn't know what he is talking about because you read a playbook?

 

Let me know how that one works for you. Should probably change your username.

Edited October 29, 2023 by BillsUberAlles

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

 

 

@Einstein that highlighted part of the diagram you posted is referring to how they’d play stacked receivers and isn’t saying the Safety would be vertical it’s saying they’d play a true 3 zone coverage to it.

 

They’re already playing Cover 3 when rip/liz is called. It’s a call for pattern match. Pattern match often has the deep third boundary player coming down to cover an area for the sole reason that the pattern matched sky safety will take the man coverage into the now deserted area. If the pattern match safety takes the man crosser, and no one comes down, that entire area of the field is left open. They essentially switch. It’s nothing unique - it happens all the time. But I don’t want to continue arguing, since I doubt it’s interesting to anyone except the two of us and I think we would just go in circles. All I will say is that I agree to disagree with your interpretation.

 

.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Einstein

[blacklabel]

If it's not Banjo...is it Banjo-Kazooie? Or perhaps it's Hamster Huey and the Gooey Kablooie. Man, I'd be awesome at making up play calls. 

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, BillsUberAlles said:

 

So let me get this straight...you are trying to tell a former college defensive coordinator he doesn't know what he is talking about because you read a playbook?

 

Let me know how that one works for you. Should probably change your username.

 

Let them go dude this is great stuff and no harm done...

 

I love this when folks dig into what defenses were trying to do and why it did or didn't work.

 

Folks don't have to end up agreeing just be respectful and open to learning new things or a different take.

 

 

 

 

 

[WideNine]

21 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

Let them go dude this is great stuff and no harm done...

 

I love this when folks dig into what defenses were trying to do and why it did or didn't work.

 

Folks don't have to end up agreeing just be respectful and open to learning new things or a different take.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A shame.

 

Selfishly I wanted you both to keep going and it was very interesting.

 

There is so much variation to the terms used for similar techniques that I was enjoying how you both were breaking down the basics 

 

Who was responsible for that deep 3rd (if it was Cover 3 and not a blown Cover 2) with Shakir's clearing route and then the flat.

 

Why I like to tune in here and don't mind getting taken down a peg

👍

Edited October 29, 2023 by WideNine

[Beck Water]

9 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

A shame.

 

Selfishly I wanted you both to keep going and it was very interesting.

 

There is so much variation to the terms used for similar techniques that I was enjoying how you both were breaking down the basics 

 

Who was responsible for that deep 3rd (if it was Cover 3 and not a blown Cover 2) with Shakir's clearing route and then the flat.

 

Why I like to tune in here and don't mind getting taken down a peg

👍

 

This.

1 hour ago, blacklabel said:

If it's not Banjo...is it Banjo-Kazooie? Or perhaps it's Hamster Huey and the Gooey Kablooie. Man, I'd be awesome at making up play calls. 

 

You, Sir, can be replaced by a steak-wrapped ukulele.  Which I will play to the delight of our neighbor’s 145 lb Anatolian Shepherd.

She has excellent musical taste.

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

They’re already playing Cover 3 when rip/liz is called. It’s a call for pattern match. Pattern match often has the deep third boundary player coming down to cover an area for the sole reason that the pattern matched sky safety will take the man coverage into the now deserted area. If the pattern match safety takes the man crosser, and no one comes down, that entire area of the field is left open. They essentially switch. It’s nothing unique - it happens all the time. But I don’t want to continue arguing, since I doubt it’s interesting to anyone except the two of us and I think we would just go in circles. All I will say is that I agree to disagree with your interpretation.

 

.

I run the coverage you’re referring to and it’s not played the way you think it’s played. If you’d like we can go to PMs and I can teach it to you. Like I said I think you’re reading stuff and getting confused because everything that gets talked about in those aren’t diagramed.

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I run the coverage you’re referring to and it’s not played the way you think it’s played. If you’d like we can go to PMs and I can teach it to you. Like I said I think you’re reading stuff and getting confused because everything that gets talked about in those aren’t diagramed.

 

Obviously go to PM’s if you feel it’s more appropriate, but I wish you’d consider to stay here as I think others of us would like to learn it.  I think there are some others who feel the same (and some who’ll be bored, but they can just scroll on by)

Edited October 29, 2023 by Beck Water

[Rat-boy]

I don’t post here much and haven’t over the 20+ years, but I think it’s lovely to have posters discussing these technical details.
 

Please do keep it here, as I  think there are plenty of readers who enjoy learning rather than scroll through pages of “Fire X”, “Bench Y” rants.

[HoofHearted]

 

@Einstein Here's your 3x1 adjustments in Saban's Rip/Liz coverages straight from the playbook so you'll believe me. Against 3x1 the overhang to the single side has 4 out (the RB) to 1st crosser. So in the case of the play we saw from the Bills game Cook would have been the overhang's 4 out. The inside backer would have been the final three player and would have carried Diggs and the boundary corner would have punched high when 1 ran mesh because he is playing MOD. The corner would have picked up Shakir if it was in fact Cover 3. Since the overhang didn't pick up Cook and the backside inside backer didn't pick up the final 3 (plus all of the stuff I covered to the trips side in regards to them playing Special) we know they were not in a Cover 3 call.

[Buffalo716]

On 10/28/2023 at 11:20 PM, Beck Water said:

I just popped in to post this link - JT O'Sullivan did another Youtube on Baker Mayfield in this game, which I found fascinating from the POV of what did and what didn't work, in the Bills defensive coverage.

 

Check it out.

 

 

And I'll see if I can find the pre-snap look, because I'm finding the discussion of the Tampa coverage on that deep throw to Shakir fascinating. 

Thanks fellas!

 

 

 

Presnap Look on the play in question

 

 

@HoofHearted with the 3x1 set I can see banjo coverage on the boundary and the quarters between the overhang and safety 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Freddie's Dead]

I really enjoyed watching this video analysis by O'Sullivan.  Learned a lot about alerts, darts, mesh concepts, etc.  He showed how the shotgun run we all hate sets up a quick RPO passing game that is a thing of beauty when it's working.  Now if only Dorsey doesn't run it on the 1 inch line....

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

On 10/29/2023 at 1:25 AM, Einstein said:

 

I disagree.

 

This is what Allen is seeing (photo below). An open Kincaid with a large enough space between Allen and the free rusher to rifle a patented Josh Allen tomahawk missile, despite the tight alley.

 

I truly believe if this same scenario was attempted 10 times in a row, Allen completes at least 8 of them.

 

 

 

 

Winfield jumps in the air and barely gets one hand (maybe even half a hand) on the ball. It was a good play by Winfield, and Allen probably should have just ate the sack, but as mentioned before, he knows he can make it work more times than not.

 

This is a perfect example of how the broadcast angle at full speed really doesn’t tell the whole story. 

[Beck Water]

On 10/29/2023 at 9:59 PM, Buffalo716 said:

@HoofHearted with the 3x1 set I can see banjo coverage on the boundary and the quarters between the overhang and safety 

 

I wish it were easier to put in screenshots.  I have to re-size them and it still seems to limit me to 2

[WideNine]

10 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I wish it were easier to put in screenshots.  I have to re-size them and it still seems to limit me to 2

 

I know right?

 

In a digital world where 2 often means terabyte limit, we still have retro kilobyte limits.

 

All I want for Christmas is to drop an image on TBD without it giving me the finger.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by WideNine

[WideNine]

11 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

This is a perfect example of how the broadcast angle at full speed really doesn’t tell the whole story. 

 

So true. 

 

Looked in real time like Allen had a brain fart and was trying a stupid move to throw the ball away... 

 

But from the different angle you can see where his eyes went and that he was looking at the check down option.

 

 

[Big Turk]

 

On 10/29/2023 at 10:33 PM, HoofHearted said:

 

@Einstein Here's your 3x1 adjustments in Saban's Rip/Liz coverages straight from the playbook so you'll believe me. Against 3x1 the overhang to the single side has 4 out (the RB) to 1st crosser. So in the case of the play we saw from the Bills game Cook would have been the overhang's 4 out. The inside backer would have been the final three player and would have carried Diggs and the boundary corner would have punched high when 1 ran mesh because he is playing MOD. The corner would have picked up Shakir if it was in fact Cover 3. Since the overhang didn't pick up Cook and the backside inside backer didn't pick up the final 3 (plus all of the stuff I covered to the trips side in regards to them playing Special) we know they were not in a Cover 3 call.

 

Watched another video where a former College and NFL QB(lots of teams, practice squads, etc, no NFL games) and he called the defense "33 Weak"?  It's the first play breakdown in the video and he talks about it for like 5 minutes.

 

Is that something similar to what you are saying?

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Big Turk

[WideNine]

9 hours ago, Big Turk said:

watched another video

 

Watched another video where a former College and NFL QB(lots of teams, practice squads, etc, no NFL games) and he called the defense "33 Weak"?  It's the first play breakdown in the video and he talks about it for like 5 minutes.

 

Is that something similar to what you are saying?

 

 

 

I think what is a bit confusing with the Saban diagram is it showing the defense vs a 2x1 set and the play with Shakir we were in a 3x1 set.

 

Winfield the S drops down into the box and his take was that he was in that overhang defender role. If that were the case Winfield should be heading to the flat and getting the right leverage to cover Cook and then I think the CB at the boundary would be dropping into the deep 3rd.

 

Instead Winfield turns inside at the snap and backpedals to take the mesh receiver on the crossing route leaving that flat and Cook uncovered.

 

The boundary CB seems to have the flat and a bead on Cook all the way so I am not convinced he was supposed to drop deep into a cover 3 zone.

 

So much to learn from diagnosing one play.

 

 

OR... I realized I could have read what HoofHearted posted above for the 3x1 adjustment.

 

😋

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by WideNine

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

20 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

I really enjoyed watching this video analysis by O'Sullivan.  Learned a lot about alerts, darts, mesh concepts, etc.  He showed how the shotgun run we all hate sets up a quick RPO passing game that is a thing of beauty when it's working.  Now if only Dorsey doesn't run it on the 1 inch line....

Right! let’s just agree RPO inside the 5 is a no go. Let’s do conventional there

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

So true. 

 

Looked in real time like Allen had a brain fart and was trying a stupid move to throw the ball away... 

 

But from the different angle you can see where his eyes went and that he was looking at the check down option.

 

That’s true, but I believe I can see O’Sullivan’s point that if he dropped back a bit more vertical he might have had a better angle to throw around the unblocked rusher

This is the sort of detail I wonder if a QB coach who never played, and 2 inexperienced backups, have the knowledge to bring up with Josh and the cred to be heard.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

This really puts a new perspective on Dorsey and fan expectations, including my own. 

[WideNine]

18 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

That’s true, but I believe I can see O’Sullivan’s point that if he dropped back a bit more vertical he might have had a better angle to throw around the unblocked rusher

This is the sort of detail I wonder if a QB coach who never played, and 2 inexperienced backups, have the knowledge to bring up with Josh and the cred to be heard.

 

I think they could and maybe should think about making some changes to the makeup of that QB room this off-season.

 

 

 

 

 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

10 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

 

Watched another video where a former College and NFL QB(lots of teams, practice squads, etc, no NFL games) and he called the defense "33 Weak"?  It's the first play breakdown in the video and he talks about it for like 5 minutes.

 

Is that something similar to what you are saying?

 

 

Seems different to me that he explained. Sounds to me more like the 33 weak is a essentially a cover 3 with the specific indication that they’re in nickle with a rolled safety covering the flat to the weak side of the formation. It looks how he draws it up that the nickle just assumes flat responsibilities to the strength and the boundary corner is deep third. 
 

But as we’ve seen and discussed, Winfield doesn’t take the flat (RB) and instead take the first man that  crosses his face. 
 

Maybe 33 weak is a terminology and the BUCS just play specific match rules to it

[Einstein]

12 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Watched another video where a former College and NFL QB(lots of teams, practice squads, etc, no NFL games) and he called the defense "33 Weak"?  It's the first play breakdown in the video and he talks about it for like 5 minutes.

 

Wow. That NFL QB must be reading my posts in this thread 😉.

 

My hypothesis was Cover 3 Sky.

 

As he said in the video, 33 weak is Cover 3 Sky (but in nickel). 

 

 

Analysts drawing: 

 

 

.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Einstein

[HoofHearted]

20 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I wish it were easier to put in screenshots.  I have to re-size them and it still seems to limit me to 2

Right? That’s my biggest deterrent when I think about making big posts to breakdown schemes etc. I’ve done a few in the past breaking down a single play but it’s a pain in the butt if I want to post more than one image.

[HoofHearted]

19 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

 

Watched another video where a former College and NFL QB(lots of teams, practice squads, etc, no NFL games) and he called the defense "33 Weak"?  It's the first play breakdown in the video and he talks about it for like 5 minutes.

 

Is that something similar to what you are saying?

 

 

No, he’s just saying he thinks it’s a weak rotation cover 3 which is what @Einstein has been saying. Saban calls it Skate but it follows the same rules as what I posted above to 3x1 sets it’s just the people that change (which is why Saban takes a holistic approach when teaching coverages to his players and uses an X instead of a position during initial install. The rules always stay the same but the people can move). Again though, based on eyes, footwork, and drops, they’re not running Cover 3. They’re in a split safety coverage. 

11 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Right! let’s just agree RPO inside the 5 is a no go. Let’s do conventional there

We didn’t run any RPO inside the 5 this past week that I recall.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

11 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

 

We didn’t run any RPO inside the 5 this past week that I recall.

And won so good