JT O'Sullivan QB School Video Breakdown of Allen in Week 8 against TB - some very interesting points

[HoofHearted]

Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

And won so good 

Lol. Which play were you referring to though? The Murray run?

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

We didn’t run any RPO inside the 5 this past week that I recall.

 

What was the shotgun 4th and 1 from the Tampa 1 yd line, which targeted Kincaid (and was deflected by the CB)? 

I thought it might have been an RPO but just PA?

(and what was up with Shakir? I assume his assignment is to block the LB who moved when Kincaid crossed the formation pre-snap, but could he take him out of the play as well with a route into the EZ?)

 

It's discussed at 12:13 in the JT O'Sullivan piece as banjo coverage

https://youtu.be/kom757F9Qys?feature=shared

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: HA!  I got it to let me add 3 screenshots by re-sizing to a total below 180kB, and did them all at once with this site

Edited November 1, 2023 by Beck Water

[HoofHearted]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

What was the shotgun 4th and 1 from the Tampa 1 yd line, which targeted Kincaid (and was deflected by the CB)? 

I thought it might have been an RPO but just PA?

(and what was up with Shakir? I assume his assignment is to block the LB who moved when Kincaid crossed the formation pre-snap, but could he take him out of the play as well with a route into the EZ?)

 

It's discussed at 12:13 in the JT O'Sullivan piece as banjo coverage

https://youtu.be/kom757F9Qys?feature=shared

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: HA!  I got it to let me add 3 screenshots by re-sizing to a total below 180kB, and did them all at once with this site

No RPO. They used a mesh just to hold a backer and eyes but the whole play design was to set a pick for Kincaid in the flat. Bucs did a really good job bumping the entire coverage.

[Beck Water]

16 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

No RPO. They used a mesh just to hold a backer and eyes but the whole play design was to set a pick for Kincaid in the flat. Bucs did a really good job bumping the entire coverage.

 

OK now wait - I may have chosen still shots poorly to look like maybe Kincaid , but was there a mesh concept in that play?  Maybe I don't understand enough about what mesh is.  To me, it's crossing routes from each side of the formation - shallow drag routes from either side.  Like this explanation in Football 101.

 

So Shakir didn't run a crossing route (or any route), and Kincaid's motion was R to L pre-snap.  Is that still a mesh?

 

 

[Motorin']

15 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK now wait - I may have chosen still shots poorly to look like maybe Kincaid , but was there a mesh concept in that play?  Maybe I don't understand enough about what mesh is.  To me, it's crossing routes from each side of the formation - shallow drag routes from either side.  Like this explanation in Football 101.

 

So Shakir didn't run a crossing route (or any route), and Kincaid's motion was R to L pre-snap.  Is that still a mesh?

 

 

 

Mesh routes are really anytime two receivers run routes crossing within a yard of each other for the purposes of creating a legal pick in man to man coverage. 

 

But like a lot of teams in goal line, the Bucs weren't in straight up man to man. They played a zone match scheme where the two defenders to the left side of the field were responsible for playing man coverage on the receiver entering their zone. 

 

So while Shakir was in position to create a natural pick on LB White, who maned up Kincaid as he ran through his zone, the outside CB was never going to follow Shakir out of his outside zone. He covered Shakir man to man until he exited his zone, which allowed him to maintain leverage on Kincaid and apply man cover technique as he entered the outside cb's zone. 

 

Nobody was getting open on that side of the field with take call and that defense. 

[HoofHearted]

36 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK now wait - I may have chosen still shots poorly to look like maybe Kincaid , but was there a mesh concept in that play?  Maybe I don't understand enough about what mesh is.  To me, it's crossing routes from each side of the formation - shallow drag routes from either side.  Like this explanation in Football 101.

 

So Shakir didn't run a crossing route (or any route), and Kincaid's motion was R to L pre-snap.  Is that still a mesh?

 

 

Sorry, a mesh is the exchange point between a RB and QB (EDIT: see photo below). That’s something totally different than a mesh concept in the pass game.

 

16 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Mesh routes are really anytime two receivers run routes crossing within a yard of each other for the purposes of creating a legal pick in man to man coverage. 

 

But like a lot of teams in goal line, the Bucs weren't in straight up man to man. They played a zone match scheme where the two defenders to the left side of the field were responsible for playing man coverage on the receiver entering their zone. 

 

So while Shakir was in position to create a natural pick on LB White, who maned up Kincaid as he ran through his zone, the outside CB was never going to follow Shakir out of his outside zone. He covered Shakir man to man until he exited his zone, which allowed him to maintain leverage on Kincaid and apply man cover technique as he entered the outside cb's zone. 

 

Nobody was getting open on that side of the field with take call and that defense. 

No, it was true man to man. They just bumped the coverage. It’s the same idea as when you see bunch or stack sets from receivers. You still play man coverage but you’re passing off routes so that you don’t get picked.

Edited November 1, 2023 by HoofHearted

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

4 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

What was the shotgun 4th and 1 from the Tampa 1 yd line, which targeted Kincaid (and was deflected by the CB)? 

I thought it might have been an RPO but just PA?

(and what was up with Shakir? I assume his assignment is to block the LB who moved when Kincaid crossed the formation pre-snap, but could he take him out of the play as well with a route into the EZ?)

 

It's discussed at 12:13 in the JT O'Sullivan piece as banjo coverage

https://youtu.be/kom757F9Qys?feature=shared

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: HA!  I got it to let me add 3 screenshots by re-sizing to a total below 180kB, and did them all at once with this site

throwing into that mass of humanity is the definition of arm arrogance. 
 

For any other QB that’s a pick 6. 

[HappyDays]

8 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

throwing into that mass of humanity is the definition of arm arrogance. 
 

For any other QB that’s a pick 6. 

 

I know you're on some kind of weird anti-Josh Allen crusade over the past few weeks, but that play was not arm arrogance and was not Allen's fault at all. It was essentially a designed one read play that Tampa Bay had to execute perfectly to defend, and they did. Jim Kubiak broke it down (article is behind a paywall):

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nfl/bills/jim-kubiak-hey-ken-dorsey-more-up-tempo-and-three-and-four-wide-receiver-sets/article_fb83e8f2-7657-11ee-a15b-b789b4ae1667.html

 

Quote

Like some NFL teams, Tampa Bay employs split-field coverage principles. This means they compartmentalize their coverages to a side. They can play one coverage to one side and another to the other side.

 

On this fourth-and-goal play, Kincaid moved into three places to stress the communication and responsibilities of the Buccaneers’ defense.

 

First, Kincaid lined up to Allen’s left.

 

Then he motioned into a tight bunch formation to Allen’s right.

 

Notice how the Buccaneers linebackers swapped sides. This was anticipated by Dorsey and Allen as a new “strong” side was created by Kincaid shifting into a 3 x 1 bunch formation. At this point, the defense was playing separate man-to-man to Allen’s right and to Allen’s left.

 

Lavonte David (No. 54) was responsible for the third inside receiver, Kincaid. When he went back to Allen’s left, David would not travel across the formation to cover Kincaid as per split-field rules. Rather, he passed the responsibility to the other side, which then would have to account for Kincaid as a new No. 2 receiver to Allen’s left, where he originally began.

 

In short, David had Kincaid man-to-man if he stayed on his side. When Kincaid traveled across the formation, he passed the responsibility to Devin White (No. 45), who then had to pass it off to Jamel Dean (No. 35).

 

Dorsey manipulated the Buccaneers’ defensive principles to gain an advantage to Kincaid in the flat, but Tampa Bay successfully passed off the responsibilities in a millisecond, which was a credit to its execution.

 

So what I didn't like about this play call is you essentially take the ball out of your best player's hands on 4th down. No different than a goalline fade as far as how much of a role Allen has on the play. Why are we removing his playmaking ability from the equation entirely?

 

Dorsey had an excellent game plan and excellent play designs for the most part but he nearly screwed it up with goofy play calls to end our first two drives.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I know you're on some kind of weird anti-Josh Allen crusade over the past few weeks, but that play was not arm arrogance and was not Allen's fault at all. It was essentially a designed one read play that Tampa Bay had to execute perfectly to defend, and they did. Jim Kubiak broke it down (article is behind a paywall):

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nfl/bills/jim-kubiak-hey-ken-dorsey-more-up-tempo-and-three-and-four-wide-receiver-sets/article_fb83e8f2-7657-11ee-a15b-b789b4ae1667.html

 

 

So what I didn't like about this play call is you essentially take the ball out of your best player's hands on 4th down. No different than a goalline fade as far as how much of a role Allen has on the play. Why are we removing his playmaking ability from the equation entirely?

 

Dorsey had an excellent game plan and excellent play designs for the most part but he nearly screwed it up with goofy play calls to end our first two drives.

you are all so mentally fragile!!! It’s ok to expect elite consistent great play for the Dude that’s a fifth of of the salary cap for years. 
 

it’s not anti him. IT’s having Brady like expectations of him.

 

sorry it’s so hard on your emotions. 
 

terrible failure to read the coverage adjustment likely due to not overindulging in film that was fortunately not a pick 6. 
 

learn how to expect excellence …. It might serve you well personally 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

15 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Lol. Which play were you referring to though? The Murray run?

i was thinking pats game… but I’m sold on RPO game. Just not on the goal line. 

[Buffalo716]

10 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Sorry, a mesh is the exchange point between a RB and QB (EDIT: see photo below). That’s something totally different than a mesh concept in the pass game.

 

No, it was true man to man. They just bumped the coverage. It’s the same idea as when you see bunch or stack sets from receivers. You still play man coverage but you’re passing off routes so that you don’t get picked.

I think what people are missing is ... Point 1... You're talking about a mesh point ... Not the route concept 

 

Point 2... Most layman can't recognize that 

[HappyDays]

28 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

terrible failure to read the coverage adjustment likely due to not overindulging in film that was fortunately not a pick 6. 

 

The coverage adjustment happened after the snap when Allen's arm was already in motion to throw the ball... And film study on Tampa's defense is what led them to run that exact play... Did you actually read the snippet I posted? You're just plain wrong on this one. That's what happens when you start with a narrative and then try to fit the facts around it. Take it up with the former QB that wrote that article if you don't believe me.

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by HappyDays

[Buffalo Barbarian]

He dose a great job but didn't know who was until he said his name.

 

 

[machine gun kelly]

Turk, thanks as always for your reviews.  This was a good thread.

[HoofHearted]

8 hours ago, HappyDays said:

So what I didn't like about this play call is you essentially take the ball out of your best player's hands on 4th down. No different than a goalline fade as far as how much of a role Allen has on the play. Why are we removing his playmaking ability from the equation entirely?

 

Dorsey had an excellent game plan and excellent play designs for the most part but he nearly screwed it up with goofy play calls to end our first two drives.

As a DC I can tell you how hard it is to execute a full field bump in man coverage. It puts a ton of stress on a defense and it’s tough to get communicated and everyone on the same page all within fractions of seconds especially considering we haven’t shown that before on film.

 

Dorsey knew what the defense was going to be in - understood the structure of the defense and designed a play to put stress on that structure. At the end of the day that’s really all you want to see out of your OC. Those guys on the other side of the ball get paid to make plays too.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

8 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

The coverage adjustment happened after the snap when Allen's arm was already in motion to throw the ball... And film study on Tampa's defense is what led them to run that exact play... Did you actually read the snippet I posted? You're just plain wrong on this one. That's what happens when you start with a narrative and then try to fit the facts around it. Take it up with the former QB that wrote that article if you don't believe me.

 

good point. Should discuss with somebody who understands what they are seeing with their own eyes an ounce of objectivity and has more than zero credibility. This is waste of time. 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

Dorsey knew what the defense was going to be in - understood the structure of the defense and designed a play to put stress on that structure. At the end of the day that’s really all you want to see out of your OC. Those guys on the other side of the ball get paid to make plays too.

 

Yeah the design of the play and the concept all make sense and show a good understanding of how to beat Tampa's principles. But you are still allowing an opportunity for the defense to execute it right and beat the play call, with no backup plan if that happens. Allen in the past has won plays even when the defense executed their side perfectly, often times for TDs. So for me, with Allen as the QB I always want that backup option built in on 4th down. If the play calls for him to release the ball as soon as he takes the snap, you've essentially left it up to chance and eliminated any second opportunity for him to create something out of nothing. That's a play call you make on 4th down if Tua is your QB. Not Josh Allen.

 

JMO of course.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

As a DC I can tell you how hard it is to execute a full field bump in man coverage. It puts a ton of stress on a defense and it’s tough to get communicated and everyone on the same page all within fractions of seconds especially considering we haven’t shown that before on film.

 

Dorsey knew what the defense was going to be in - understood the structure of the defense and designed a play to put stress on that structure. At the end of the day that’s really all you want to see out of your OC. Those guys on the other side of the ball get paid to make plays too.

what would you hope the qb does when the coverage is all over the motion man, try to fit it in anyway or improvise and try to do something off script? 
 

obviously it’s 4th and 1 and immediate pressure. 
 

also should the motion guy be someone faster/quicker? 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Big Turk]

3 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

what would you hope the qb does when the coverage is all over the motion man as in that case, try to fit it in anyway or improvise and try to do something off script? 
 

obviously it’s 4th and 1 and immediate pressure. 
 

also should the motion guy be someone faster/quicker? 

 

I'm guessing that's a situation where you say "my guy is better than yours" and expect him to make the play anyway?

[HoofHearted]

1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

what would you hope the qb does when the coverage is all over the motion man, try to fit it in anyway or improvise and try to do something off script? 
 

obviously it’s 4th and 1 and immediate pressure. 
 

also should the motion guy be someone faster/quicker? 

It's a quick hitter on a rub route - give your guy a chance. Allen isn't reading coverage after he gets it based on the initial motion.

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Yeah the design of the play and the concept all make sense and show a good understanding of how to beat Tampa's principles.

 

 

Some teams will also run alternates to this play, especially when facing defenses they know are good at communicating man-cover switches.

 

Rather than having the outside WR slant in, they will have that WR fade up to the back of the end zone.

 

This puts the boundary CB in conflict.

 

If he goes with the outside WR to the back of the end zone, he leaves the fully-running-with-a-headstart Kincaid with an easy catch and TD run toward the pylon (it’s difficult for the trailing defender to catch up to a receiver who has a head start pre-snap - Miami does this a lot ).

 

But if he doesn’t follow the outside WR to the back, and instead covers Kincaid, then the QB has an easy TD to the back of the end zone.

 

Like this:

 

 

Back to the play they actually did run (the rub slant). The Bills actually ran a very similar concept to that play against the Patriots. In that situation, rather than having the RB stationary in the backfield at the mesh point, they had the RB motion, Josh faked the handoff to him during the catch of the snap, and Kincaid got the first down via the rub.

 

The Patriots also passed coverage assignment well, but the difference is the Patriots didn’t dare to play bump coverage. They played 5 yards off.