Saint Josh of Buffalo?

[CincyBillsFan]

41 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

😂😂That's sort of what I am saying

 

Allen was worse than Mahomes v Jets so they win and we lose

 

Allen was better than Mahomes v Jags so they win and we lose

 

 

It's almost as if there was a team involved in deciding these games. 

 

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, MikePJ76 said:

All I know is there are no tougher players in this league playing his position.  The hits he has taken recently would have ended up as major injuries to most of the guys around the league.  

 

I have a sneaking suspicion if the monster hits he has been receiving stop the small subtle mistakes will also and the offense will be rolling again.

 

that's just me though.  It seems most are really looking to turn him into a villain here.  I got that sense when I first signed up in the spring and it feels like it is building momentum.

He is tough to be sure.  The Bills have had tough QBs in history.  Kelly was certainly.  And Kemp took a lot of shots that even as a kid I couldn’t believe he got up from.  I worry about Josh taking a hit like the kid Richardson here in Indy took and be out for the year.  That’s why I think the coaches are trying to limit his running.

[newcam2012]

49 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I'm not asking for the moon. I'm asking for less than FOUR TO's. lmao.

 

The advantage is that the Chiefs have a better team, a better coach and a better QB.

 

We have no chance to compete with that team as long as those 3 things are true.

Agree one hundred percent. In fact, I'd take it one step further. The gap between the two teams has widened. 

 

It widened mostly because of the Chiefs as an organization. Their GM and coach are likely the best in the league. No one can say that about Buffalo's.

 

As a result, the Chief's draft picks, schemes, player development, game planning, game time adjustments, etc...are superior to the Bills. 

 

End result is number one seed, home field advantage, Super Bowl appearances, and Super Bowl wins. 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

 

Um, the guy I responded to just said Mahomes was having a bad year. So wrong.

You're right but your post got me to thinking along another line and that was what my post was about.  The fact was that so far this season Mahomes and Allen have been pretty close in every QB metric yet no one would claim Mahomes struggles to see the field or can't read defenses or doesn't work hard in the off season.  Yet Allen is being accused of all of these things. 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

You're right but your post got me to thinking along another line and that was what my post was about.  The fact was that so far this season Mahomes and Allen have been pretty close in every QB metric yet no one would claim Mahomes struggles to see the field or can't read defenses or doesn't work hard in the off season.  Yet Allen is being accused of all of these things. 

 

 

I don’t spend time on the Chiefs board.  Maybe some of their fans do so with Mahomes.

[T&C]

49 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

That was the AFL… different times , different competition level. Those teams were know in particular for their defense. Even in the NFL , that’s not necessarily  the defining characteristic of the QB. Trent Dilfer’s of the world have won championships. Simply put, Allen is the most talented QB the franchise has known, and quite possibly ever will. 

When I see Josh take the title from Jack I'll climb on board but until then we only have 1 winning QB no matter the era. It was smash mouth then, now it's Babycakes. Kemp is simply the only Bills QB who has taken us as far as we could possibly go... I don't see how there can be a debate on that fact.

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I don’t spend time on the Chiefs board.  Maybe some of their fans do so with Mahomes.

If they do they're nuts.

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

Josh deserves criticism but only some. He should spend more time studying tape and learning how to read defenses. We lose sight of this flaw because of his ridiculous athleticism.  But Josh is the type of qb that desperately needs a mentor.  Brian was that guy, as Andy is to Mahomes.  Josh has no one on this team to go to.  This is where I think we're seeing this detachment in his play.  Dorsey is clearly not the answer nor do I see him on this staff after this season.  Josh needs to improve certain areas in his game, but the majority of the blame goes to Ken & Sean.  Year 6 of a mediocre OL....stupid & egregious. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

If they do they're nuts.

 

 

All teams have their share of nutcase fans.

[newcam2012]

5 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

You will never convince me Dan Marino wasn't elite.

 

I get what you are saying. Ditto about Kelly too. 

 

Still it's about winning super bowls not about regular season wins and great stats. 

 

Elite QBs are sought after because that's the most direct way to win it all. The facts just bare that out. In mondern day football it's very difficult for a serviceable QB to win it all. SF is knocking on that door. 

 

I think Allen will be disappointed if puts up hall of frame numbers with no ring to go with it. There will be always a little asterisk by his name sort of speak. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, LABILLBACKER said:

Josh deserves criticism but only some. He should spend more time studying tape and learning how to read defenses. We lose sight of this flaw because of his ridiculous athleticism.  But Josh is the type of qb that desperately needs a mentor.  Brian was that guy, as Andy is to Mahomes.  Josh has no one on this team to go to.  This is where I think we're seeing this detachment in his play.  Dorsey is clearly not the answer nor do I see him on this staff after this season.  Josh needs to improve certain areas in his game, but the majority of the blame goes to Ken & Sean.  Year 6 of a mediocre OL....stupid & egregious. 

The rumor was Josh had a big hand in keeping Dorsey.  Dorsey needs to be more imaginative.  But maybe he isn’t the style coach that would benefit Josh.  Daboll wasn’t afraid to get in Josh’s face; maybe Josh responds better to that style?  Even Brady wanted to be coached hard.

1 minute ago, newcam2012 said:

I get what you are saying. Ditto about Kelly too. 

 

Still it's about winning super bowls not about regular season wins and great stats. 

 

Elite QBs are sought after because that's the most direct way to win it all. The facts just bare that out. In mondern day football it's very difficult for a serviceable QB to win it all. SF is knocking on that door. 

 

I think Allen will be disappointed if puts up hall of frame numbers with no ring to go with it. There will be always a little asterisk by his name sort of speak. 

The last couple weeks Purdy is looking more like the Mr. Irrelevant in his draft class.  Defenses may be figuring him out.

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Josh deserves criticism but only some. He should spend more time studying tape and learning how to read defenses. We lose sight of this flaw because of his ridiculous athleticism.  But Josh is the type of qb that desperately needs a mentor.  Brian was that guy, as Andy is to Mahomes.  Josh has no one on this team to go to.  This is where I think we're seeing this detachment in his play.  Dorsey is clearly not the answer nor do I see him on this staff after this season.  Josh needs to improve certain areas in his game, but the majority of the blame goes to Ken & Sean.  Year 6 of a mediocre OL....stupid & egregious. 

Good points.  I would add Tua and McDaniel.

 

As an aside, if you ever wanted proof of the impact of an offensive minded coach on a team and QB you don't have to look any further then Tua & McDaniel.  Tua was a disaster under defensive guru Flores while under McDaniel he's right on the edge of being elite.  And the difference between the fishes offense under McDaniels and Flores is enormous.

 

[Riverboat Ritchie]

15 minutes ago, T&C said:

When I see Josh take the title from Jack I'll climb on board but until then we only have 1 winning QB no matter the era. It was smash mouth then, now it's Babycakes. Kemp is simply the only Bills QB who has taken us as far as we could possibly go... I don't see how there can be a debate on that fact.

Until he delivers a Lombardi, I don’t think he can be declared Saint Josh. Maybe Blessed or Venerable but he needs a miracle. Of course if he has to play under McD his entire career he might achieve sainthood through martyrdom.  

[FireChans]

37 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

You're right but your post got me to thinking along another line and that was what my post was about.  The fact was that so far this season Mahomes and Allen have been pretty close in every QB metric yet no one would claim Mahomes struggles to see the field or can't read defenses or doesn't work hard in the off season.  Yet Allen is being accused of all of these things. 

 

 

And the difference is 6-1 and 4-3.

[CincyBillsFan]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

And the difference is 6-1 and 4-3.

That difference is entirely dependent on factors other then two QB's.  It is a team game after all. 

[Punching Bag]

2 hours ago, Success said:

I have no issue at all with criticism.

 

But some here are just over the top about it.  There is a difference between analytical criticism, and just saying he's trash or something. And we've seen the latter on this board.

 

 

 

Well some posters are just trash talkers - it probably has to do with trailer park they grew up.

[Chaos]

2 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

I mean...we pretty much trash him when he plays how the average top QB plays. Hes currently on the highest of pedestals.

 

Literally just watch all the top QBs play. They miss just as much as Allen misses. 

 

Mahomes has been pretty bad by our standards if you watch his games.

 

Allen has been a freak of nature for us. So hes no longer running people over and doing WOW stuff he just looks like any other top QB now.

should have been /end thread

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

42 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

The rumor was Josh had a big hand in keeping Dorsey.  Dorsey needs to be more imaginative.  But maybe he isn’t the style coach that would benefit Josh.  Daboll wasn’t afraid to get in Josh’s face; maybe Josh responds better to that style?  Even Brady wanted to be coached hard.

The last couple weeks Purdy is looking more like the Mr. Irrelevant in his draft class.  Defenses may be figuring him out.

I could tell you a story about Josh's dad being drunk and what he really thinks about Ken Dorsey. But, I won't because that would be in appropriate.

[4merper4mer]

3 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Who is saying Allen is above reproach and should never be criticized?  You are mislabeling those of us who push back hard on over the top attacks on Allen as people that are unwilling to tolerate any legitimate criticisms of Allen. That is not what is going on here.  And your choice of "Saint Allen" in your thread title betrays your misreading of what we're saying.

 

I have no problems with legit criticisms of Allen.  But I'm also not obligated to agree with every one of these criticisms either. There are places where reasonable and knowledgeable Bills fans can disagree on Allen.  After all those of us called "Allen homers" on 2BD largely criticized Allen after the Jets game. 

 

And we don't have to be harsh in our criticism.  IMO Allen has earned the benefit of the doubt from Bills fans that no QB since Jim Kelly has earned.  I see to many posters tell us Allen is lazy or can't read defenses or is distracted by off field activities or doesn't see the field well and on and on.  I don't agree with this because while it is true that Allen is many of these things at times in a game, like every other QB, it is also true that overall Allen is not these things.  And my proof is his season to date stats. 

 

Allen's rank among QB Starters:

 

Yards passing = #6

 

Passing TD's = tied with Mahomes & Tua for #2

 

Total TD's = #1

 

Regular QB Rating = #6

 

QBR = #3

 

Sorry but given the quality of the Bills O line and skill players not named Diggs a QB that doesn't see the field well or read defenses could not put up these stats. Allen is not surrounded by the Eagles or 49's offensive units.

 

Bringing it back to the NE game.  Some of us are reacting to those claiming that Allen played terribly.  Do you think he did?  The objective evidence overwhelmingly supports that overall he played very good and had the Bills in a position to win the game.  That is not saying Allen couldn't have played better, he could have. If elite Allen was on the field the Bills win that game no matter what the D does. 

 

So a reasonable position to disagree IMO is whether Allen was very good or just good in the NE game.  I would never characterize Allen's play against NE as great that would be wrong.  But equally wrong is to try to claim Allen played poorly against NE.

 

But as Greg Cosell says repeatedly when discussing the Bills:  "If you need your QB to be elite in every game you have a big problem and it's not the QB".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is not one person on this board calling for Allen to be traded or removed from the team in any way.   Not one.  By contrast there is a 4 billion page thread about firing Dorsey, multiple calls for McD’s head on a platter, a few calls for Beane to be removed, joy over Knox’s injury, a couple of mob hits out on Gabe Davis, a few people still calling Diggs a diva.  But touch the 17th rail and you’d better watch out.  
 

BTW lol at your decision of whether Allen had a “really good”;game Sunday or if it was just “good”.

Edited October 25, 2023 by 4merper4mer

[Since1981]

Josh is not the problem. 
What’s changed? DORSEY OC

Who changed? No WR2. 
 

(D gets a pass due to injury)

[muppy]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

The past several days there has been a lot of talk about Josh.  Among the things that I have read just today:

 

He can’t ever learn to read defenses pre-snap so just let him play how he wants

 

He was better when Daboll was here, and Daboll hated McD so much he was willing to throw away a series in one of the playoff games against the Chiefs to prove it.

 

Josh is already a sure fire first ballot HOFer and the best player to ever put on a Bills uniform

 

The issue the offense has had recently are all Dorsey’s fault, or the O line, or the WRs. 
 

And so on.  It seems to some that Josh and the quality of his play is untouchable, that no one dare question anything about his play.

 

Here is my perspective, and I’ve literally seen every player that has ever played for the Bills since 1960.  I love that we have Josh as our QB.  He is the mainstay of the team.  He gives us a shot every time he walks in the field. I think he may be the most physically gifted QB we have had in team history.  His arm strength is great, although Kelly’s was as well and Jack Kemp did not exactly have a noodle arm.  He is competitive and tough as you want; again so was Kelly and for those who don’t remember Kemp he was a bulldog as well.  But Josh is on a plain above them and others QBs playing today when talking about his physical skills.  if Josh continues on his path he will be in the HOF and I fully expect at least one Lombardi or two before he’s done.  He may be the best to ever wear the uniform especially when he wins a Lombardi (but at present Bruce and OJ would have an argument).
 

But he is not a saint.  He is not perfect, he is not immune from criticism, and there are things he can improve in his game.  In that regard he is like any other NFL player or coach,  past or present.  McD and Dorsey deserve criticism at times.  Daboll did when he was here (many forget the vitriol thrown at him).  The WRs, the line, the RBs they all deserve it at times.  And so does Josh.  The Jets game he stunk.  There, I said it.  So did Josh.  Then he played great in the three blowout games.  He hasn’t played well in the first half of the last 3 games, then played very well in the second halves.  He turns the ball over more than he should.  And when people say he has no one to throw to, sometimes yes but the film says sometimes no.

 

If it was any other player on the team, no one would argue that player is perfect, that they should be immune from criticism.  Josh is no different in that regard.  He is different from the perspective of how prodigious his physical talent is, but not that he cannot continue improving.  Someone said today that he can never be a Brady in terms of pre-snaps reads.  I say:  why not?  Why can’t he continue improving there, improving in recognizing blitzes.  Improving in getting the ball out to a hot read?  Why?

 

Again, I love Josh.  I love how much he has brought to the team.  I love how he has embraced the community, the Mafia, his talent, and that we have our guy, a guy that I know can take us all the way, for at least another 10 years.  But he is not a saint.  I don’t think we need to treat him as such.  Let’s recognize him for what he is; a tremendously talented QB who with continued experience may very well be spoken of as one of the greatest ever.  But that at present he has room to get better.  And if someone had the temerity to say so it does not mean they are a non-fan, or Bills hater, or whatever. 

 

 

this post is a reality check and well said. I will say that  being a protestant Christian the  noun saint refers to a person who is saved. So not to be picky but I think a lot of the fan base  think of Josh Allen as a human football "God"  worthy of football worship. The ONE. #savior 

 

he certainly is not a deity. And yes ihe s not perfect.  But dang close. 😉  

 

GO BILLS

Edited October 25, 2023 by muppy

[jaab1028]

A little early in his career to consider him a first ballot HOFer,but I do agree with most of what I read,well done.Go Bills!

[Boatdrinks]

5 hours ago, T&C said:

When I see Josh take the title from Jack I'll climb on board but until then we only have 1 winning QB no matter the era. It was smash mouth then, now it's Babycakes. Kemp is simply the only Bills QB who has taken us as far as we could possibly go... I don't see how there can be a debate on that fact.

There’s no debate on what the team achieved with him at QB ; he’s just not the best QB the Bills have had. 

[90sBills]

5 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

That difference is entirely dependent on factors other then two QB's.  It is a team game after all. 

It’s a team game where the qb is the leader of the team responsible for most or all of its points. Allen’s overall stats may be similar to Mahomes thus far this season but their performances have not been the same. Allen accrued a lot of those stats in the blowout wins against the Fins and Raiders. He struggled against the Jets, Jax, NYG, and Pats losing 3 of those games. The Chiefs offense, while working in new receivers, have not struggled as much in their games as the Bills have and still managed to win 6 out of 7 games.

 

No one that has watched both teams so far this year will say Allen has been as good as Mahomes if they’re being objective. 

[Ramza86]

15 hours ago, FireChans said:

PATRICK MAHOMES IS 6-1. His passer rating is better than Josh's. He is throwing for more yards than Josh.

 

And you're telling me he's "pretty bad" by our standards?  So Josh is even worse???

 

Am I taking crazy pills?

 

So what youre telling me is that youve only been looking at stats and not the games then. Cool.

The Mahomes and Allen you are currently seeing is not the best version of themselves. Its as simple as that. If Mahomes was 4-3 right now itd be the same exact conversation over in KC.