The right mix between air and ground

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Dumb....  Look in the mirror.  The defence stops the offense and then they get off the field.  The Bills did not on Sunday.  The Offense is to blame for a 17 play 8:30 drive, a 93 yard drive and 75 yard drives.  10 of 18 3rd down conversions, many of them over 7 yards and almost all pass completions?  500 yards in offense was Josh Allen's fault?  

 

I will grant you that the offense not getting first downs is an issue, but it is the defense that couldn't stop Lawrence, who had almost 200 yards passing in the first half too.

 

 

Incredible.  Simply incredible.

[Billsfan1972]

14 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Incredible.  Simply incredible.

Right back at you!!!!😜

[Royale with Cheese]

12 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Right back at you!!!!😜

 

The simple concept is they both are equally at fault when the TOP is that unbalanced.

 

If the offense picks up first downs, they keep the ball.  That means, in this case, Trevor Lawrence stays on the sidelines.  Since they keep giving the ball to Lawrence and giving him extra possessions, our offense is contributing to their TOP.  

 

It is the exact same way for the defense.  If they stop them, they get off the field.  Since they didn't, they stayed on the field.

 

So again, the offense and defense in this game are equally responsible for the lopsided TOP.  It's not the defense was more responsible or the offense was more responsible, they both were equally responsible.  The offense kept giving the Jaguars the ball.  The defense kept themselves on the field.  We punted more in the first half than we did in the first 4 games combined.

 

Multiple people are trying to explain this to you and you simply cannot grasp this.  

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yep and ensure no 300 yard passing game.  You love that 60's football huh?

 

How about getting first downs those first 4 possessions by doing what JA does best?  Longing for the days of Jack Kemp?

I want the Bills to win.  You want them to lose so long as they excite you in doing so. 

1 hour ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

who the heck cares about passing yardage statistics. Buffalo lost the game

 

Dorsey gives up too much on the running game, he's a bad OC. 

Go back to posts from last year.  This "fan" would rather the Bills lose as long as they throw for more than 300 yards.  He said that exact thing.  I'm sure he was delighted around 4:30 last Sunday.

Edited October 11, 2023 by oldmanfan

[gobills404]

This the same chicken or the egg scenario that comes up every year. The Bills don’t get blowout wins because they put up a lot of rushing yards in those games. They put up a lot of rushing yards in those games because they’re blowing a team out and start pounding the rock more to shorten the game. 

[Italian Bills]

But if almost everyone here has a recipe to solve our offense issues, why KD can’t see that also ? 
 

I mean, we are all very normal football fans, Dorsey is a professional football coach, how is that possibile that he can not see the things that hundreds of fans here see ? 
 

A mystery… 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Italian Bills

[BigAl2526]

I refuse to try and define a formula for how many yards the Bills have to gain on the ground.  However, they do have to demonstrate the ability to gain yards on the ground with some kind of consistency.  There were other things that went wrong in the Jacksonville game as well, that might have changed the outcome.  

 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

Honestly I don't think we abandoned the run quickly enough in London. 

 

I'd rather see 20 pass plays in a row then 1 more Cook run out of shotgun for 2 to -6 yards. 

 

This offense's strength is the passing game. We've won so many more games since 2020 because of our passing game than the running game. Including games with no rush attack at all. 

 

Makes me wonder how much time we waste trying to establish the run when it's clearly not working is McD's influence. 

 

 

 

[Logic]

[Solomon Grundy]

Has any of the reporters asked Ken Dorsey what the Bills identity on offense is? If so, what was his reply? I loved the question Muki Hawkins asked about the 2nd and 1 toss play with Cook. Why'd he called that particular play when the Jags were playing 8 in the box defensively. 

10 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

Honestly I don't think we abandoned the run quickly enough in London. 

 

I'd rather see 20 pass plays in a row then 1 more Cook run out of shotgun for 2 to -6 yards. 

 

This offense's strength is the passing game. We've won so many more games since 2020 because of our passing game than the running game. Including games with no rush attack at all. 

 

Makes me wonder how much time we waste trying to establish the run when it's clearly not working is McD's influence. 

 

 

 

Agree with Cook running, would like to see more Harris/Murray. That whiff by Cook in pass pro was very disturbing

[Shortchaz]

8 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

Honestly I don't think we abandoned the run quickly enough in London. 

 

I'd rather see 20 pass plays in a row then 1 more Cook run out of shotgun for 2 to -6 yards. 

 

This offense's strength is the passing game. We've won so many more games since 2020 because of our passing game than the running game. Including games with no rush attack at all. 

 

Makes me wonder how much time we waste trying to establish the run when it's clearly not working is McD's influence. 

 

 

 

Agree with all of this. the team is a passing team and will live and die with it. 
 

the reason we need a running game is to make us better. There’s too many variables in the passing game and it’s why this team has huge swings in production. A strong running game will make us more consistent. 

[Fan in Chicago]

19 hours ago, Italian Bills said:

 

We desperately need our ground yards to open up the game on the air. 

 

 

 

We do not "desperately" need ground yards. Overall I have always held the belief that with an Allen helmed offense 60-40 should be the season average target with variations for specific opponents. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

A big reason we lost Sunday was the time of possession got so lopsided and this team just refused to run straight ahead with Murray and Harris. 
 

Bills ran the ball a total of three times in the second half, despite seeing the stress that was placed on the undermanned defense and the score being stuck at 11-7 for over a quarter. 

I can not stand the reliance on Shotgun as a do everything formation.

 

That stupid delay/draw to Cook that loses yards constantly.

 

And then you listen to Dorsey and you get lip service about wanting to achieve balance. It was a horrible day for the OC and after all these years, can’t McDermott see what’s going on and override these terrible play calls? 
 

You see the pass-pass-pass is making you go 3 and 4 out 6/7 drives and yet you’re still doing it well into the second half. 
 

Bills did it to themselves against Jacksonville. Running allows you to possess the ball, and the Jags just baited the Bills successfully into forfeiting the run to gun the ball constantly. 

[Italian Bills]

56 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

A big reason we lost Sunday was the time of possession got so lopsided and this team just refused to run straight ahead with Murray and Harris. 
 

Bills ran the ball a total of three times in the second half, despite seeing the stress that was placed on the undermanned defense and the score being stuck at 11-7 for over a quarter. 

I can not stand the reliance on Shotgun as a do everything formation.

 

That stupid delay/draw to Cook that loses yards constantly.

 

And then you listen to Dorsey and you get lip service about wanting to achieve balance. It was a horrible day for the OC and after all these years, can’t McDermott see what’s going on and override these terrible play calls? 
 

You see the pass-pass-pass is making you go 3 and 4 out 6/7 drives and yet you’re still doing it well into the second half. 
 

Bills did it to themselves against Jacksonville. Running allows you to possess the ball, and the Jags just baited the Bills successfully into forfeiting the run to gun the ball constantly. 

Isn’t maybe the time that the Clapman talks to Dorsey about his play calling ? 
 

But maybe he’s just too loyal with him, too much a good boy after all. 
 

How many times did you see him furious at the refs when they call bad penalties to us ? Pretty never. 
 

Maybe we would need a bulldog and not a cocker in many situations… and be sure that players can see that. 
 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Italian Bills

[Scott7975]

21 hours ago, Italian Bills said:

So what would be the right way to establish a productive running game ? With what plays ? In what situations ? 
 

For what i can see we run almost exclusively inside routes, almost never outside the LOS, many teams do that with great results. 
 

Why is that ? 

Probably because they aren’t telegraphing it from shotgun and the runner isn’t at a dead stop when he gets the ball while defenders are already breaking through the line as he gets it. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Scott7975

[Italian Bills]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

Probably because they aren’t telegraphing it from shotgun and the runner isn’t at a dead stop when he gets the ball while defenders are already breaking through the line as he gets it. 

It would be enough to be more creative with the running plays, use more counter, slant, pitch, off tackle… mix more, not always use Cook to run inside for no gain or worse if not in some rare case. 
 

You go straight against the LOS with Harris or Murray, not with Cook.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Italian Bills

[machine gun kelly]

It’s important we use Murray and Harris up the middle, and Cook to the outside.  Greater depth of target to our TE’s, and once we get past these three games, Allen on some designed runs.  I’m thinking specifically of the Eagles, Chiefs, and Cowgirls.

[Italian Bills]

19 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

It’s important we use Murray and Harris up the middle, and Cook to the outside.  Greater depth of target to our TE’s, and once we get past these three games, Allen on some designed runs.  I’m thinking specifically of the Eagles, Chiefs, and Cowgirls.

Exactly, use your backs properly Dorsey ! 

 

Cook with his quickness and speed in open field is deadly, don’t run him against a wall every single time. 
 

Makes Murray and Harris the ones that break the LOS. 
 

 

[PBF81]

On 10/11/2023 at 3:45 AM, Italian Bills said:

Based on the personal we have, in your opinion, what would have to be the right percentage of the total offensive plays between the pass game and run game ? 
 

I know that every game can force you to change your plan, but in general ? 
 

Do you think that this Bills team would be good for a 65/35 split between the two ways where 65 % is dedicated at the offense ?

 

I always said that when the Bills run over the 100 yards, we win. 
 

Jets game: Bills 97 - L

Raiders game: Bills 183 - W

Commanders: Bills 168 - W

Phins game: Bills 104 - W

Jaguars game: Bills 29 - L

 

Just a case ? Don’t think so. 
 

We desperately need our ground yards to open up the game on the air. 

 

Well, there are other commonalities in our 3 wins.  The one that sticks out most to me is that we've had TO margins of +2, +3, and +4 in our three wins.  

 

I forget which season it was, maybe 2004, where everyone thought that we were better than we were, but where the reality was that we won most of our games due to significant TO margin advantages.  

 

TOs are great obviously, but they cannot be relied upon as a construct or strategy for winning.  

 

Just sayin'.  

 

 

[Italian Bills]

56 minutes ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

problem with that is that as soon as one of them comes into the game the defense will know where the run is going

Then what’s the solution ?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

9 hours ago, Italian Bills said:

Isn’t maybe the time that the Clapman talks to Dorsey about his play calling ? 
 

But maybe he’s just too loyal with him, too much a good boy after all. 
 

How many times did you see him furious at the refs when they call bad penalties to us ? Pretty never. 
 

Maybe we would need a bulldog and not a cocker in many situations… and be sure that players can see that. 
 

 

Well I said this because McDermott will say in his press conferences: golly gee, wish we would have ran more, we like balance.

 

Well Coach you can override Dorsey.

 

And two, don’t you guys have another run plays besides shotgun delayed/draw to Cook? 
 

Don’t you guys work on anything else? 
 

Their attitude after this game was like - whew - we tried everything out there but Jacksonville just can’t be run on. 
 

Harris and Murray got 5 combined carries. 
 

 

[Billsfan1972]

10 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

A big reason we lost Sunday was the time of possession got so lopsided and this team just refused to run straight ahead with Murray and Harris. 
 

Bills ran the ball a total of three times in the second half, despite seeing the stress that was placed on the undermanned defense and the score being stuck at 11-7 for over a quarter. 

I can not stand the reliance on Shotgun as a do everything formation.

 

That stupid delay/draw to Cook that loses yards constantly.

 

And then you listen to Dorsey and you get lip service about wanting to achieve balance. It was a horrible day for the OC and after all these years, can’t McDermott see what’s going on and override these terrible play calls? 
 

You see the pass-pass-pass is making you go 3 and 4 out 6/7 drives and yet you’re still doing it well into the second half. 
 

Bills did it to themselves against Jacksonville. Running allows you to possess the ball, and the Jags just baited the Bills successfully into forfeiting the run to gun the ball constantly. 

The issues with the offense wasn't the lack of runs it was runs at the wrong time bad playcalls and passes short of the sticks. 

 

A 2 yeard pass on second and 2 is a wasted play.

 

Add to that a few badly timed drops and that was the difference. 

 

However the defense didn't make the big play when needed either. They allowed 500 yards.

[Italian Bills]

1 hour ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

Run the ball in a variety of different ways. Dont try to replace Singletary with a slow back like Damien Harris. Draft an offensive lineman instead of a skinny TE

You know we all wanted a new TE because Know wasn’t our Kelce, just to say… so i think getting Kink was a good thing, skinny now maybe, but after a couple of years like a pro, we’ll see. 
 

Different thing is to be more creative with the running game, i stated that earlier. Dorsey you there ? 

44 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Well I said this because McDermott will say in his press conferences: golly gee, wish we would have ran more, we like balance.

 

Well Coach you can override Dorsey.

 

And two, don’t you guys have another run plays besides shotgun delayed/draw to Cook? 
 

Don’t you guys work on anything else? 
 

Their attitude after this game was like - whew - we tried everything out there but Jacksonville just can’t be run on. 
 

Harris and Murray got 5 combined carries. 
 

 

Holy words ! Facts !

32 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The issues with the offense wasn't the lack of runs it was runs at the wrong time bad playcalls and passes short of the sticks. 

 

A 2 yeard pass on second and 2 is a wasted play.

 

Add to that a few badly timed drops and that was the difference. 

 

However the defense didn't make the big play when needed either. They allowed 500 yards.

Defense was devastated, can’t blame them. 

[machine gun kelly]

3 hours ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

problem with that is that as soon as one of them comes into the game the defense will know where the run is going

Nit if you’re doing 21 personnel.  Cool is an efficient pass catcher in the flat.  You still have 2 WR’s in that scenario, and although Kinkaid has shown proven hands, Knox has the experience.

 

When in 12, that’s different.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, Italian Bills said:

You know we all wanted a new TE because Know wasn’t our Kelce, just to say… so i think getting Kink was a good thing, skinny now maybe, but after a couple of years like a pro, we’ll see. 
 

Different thing is to be more creative with the running game, i stated that earlier. Dorsey you there ? 

Holy words ! Facts !

Defense was devastated, can’t blame them. 

At the end of third quarter the TOP was 29 minutes Jags, 15 minutes Bills. 

Then you throw in: no Tre White, no Benford, no Milano, no Rousseau, no Shaw Lawson, Von at his pitch count, and Elam playing his first game of 2023. 

At the score heading into the 4th was 11-7. 

[Solomon Grundy]

On 10/12/2023 at 6:30 AM, Italian Bills said:

Exactly, use your backs properly Dorsey ! 

 

Cook with his quickness and speed in open field is deadly, don’t run him against a wall every single time. 
 

Makes Murray and Harris the ones that break the LOS. 
 

 

Unless you implement a lead fullback with Cook in the lineup. I'd love to see some counters and split formations with a fullback leading Cook. All Cook needs is a crease. If Josh is in the gun, use Murray/Harris with the between the tackle runs. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Solomon Grundy