Kirksey signing with the Bills PS

[BillnutinHouston]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

 

Typically not a good sign when the guy you sign to the practice squad in late August is most likely penciled in to be your starter in a few weeks… 
 

 

George Cumby says hello.

[Shaw66]

18 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

I agree that recent evidence shows the McBeane don't think that in a passing league MLB is a priority position.

 

But perhaps they had the same or a similar view when they drafted Edmunds but were hoping with his height, reach and speed he could be a unicorn MLB and be a vital asset on the D for the short passing game. But he really wasn't.

 

And now they figure most, if not all MLBs, aren't really a force against passing teams so that's why it's no longer a priority worth much more than low-third-round picks.

I think that's exactly right.  Edmunds wasn't a heat-seeking missile when he joined the Bills, and I think McBeane hoped he would learn to become one.  Then they would have had a truly magnificent player in the middle of the defense.  I think they now look at the position as you say in the bold sentence. 

[BarleyNY]

40 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

So his positive traits would be explosion, and fast straight-line speed?  What do you see as a ceiling?

 

When I look at Spotrac's ILB FA list, it's kind of un-inspiring.  But there are a couple guys who signed for $2.5-$3M who seem plausibly better than what we have

 

I think at this point we’ve seen his ceiling.

 

Deion Jones and Jaylon Smith are still out there. Jones is still a FA and Smith is on a PS. Neither has had a lot of interest this off-season so I’m not sure how much better they’d be than Kirksey. I haven’t seen them play much though. Maybe it is because Kirksey took the deal we were offering to MLBs. I’d be surprised if it was much more than vet minimum plus incentives. 

[stevewin]

54 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Might have the answer right there.  I guess we'll have to stay tuned.

A team can be bad, but still have decent/deep talent for specific position groups

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

The only evidence you have that middle linebacker is important to them is that they used draft capital on one five years ago.   The evidence I have is that they used no money and no draft capital to replace him.   And I have Beane's presser, in which he admits that he spent all the money and draft capital elsewhere, and in which he also admits that they've been intending to have all the players around the middle linebacker pick up whatever talent differential may be in the middle.   And I have the fact that they upgraded EVERY position on defense in the past two years, which is exactly the time frame within which they knew they weren't keeping Edmunds.   They've signed two bigtime pass rushers, a starting defensive tackle and two backup tackles, re-signed Oliver, used a first-round pick on a corner, re-signed Poyer, and signed a veteran backup safety.  

 

In the face of all that, do you really think that middle linebacker is a more important position than any of the other positions?   The only evidence you have is they drafted Edmunds.   I think it's clear that their view of what they need in the middle has changed.  

 

Shaw, with all respect, you skate right over evidence I spelled out in plain language - the Bills picked up his 5th year option.  Why'd they do that, if MLB didn't matter to them?  Or why didn't they pick it up and then trade him, maybe for more draft capital than a 3rd round comp?

 

Speaking of draft capital, how can you square 2 3rd round picks in 2 years as "no draft capital"?  Seriously?

 

As for prioritizing elsewhere, I think of Beane and McDermott as a sort of executive chef team.  They look at what they need, they look at what ingredients are potentially available to them, and they map out a strategy.  You want to look at their food purchase decisions and say "well they didn't buy a steak this year, they spent their money on veal and chicken, so clearly steak doesn't matter to them since they didn't buy a steak".  I say "maybe they couldn't square the quality of the available steak with its cost and with other menu needs, so they made a plan to live with hamburger, buy two beef calves to fatten up for the future, and fund the organic chicken and prime veal they need.  That doesn't mean they don't value steak, or that they won't buy a steak in the future".

 

That was the point of my analogy to what the Bills did last year at slot (seems similar to what they did this year at MLB), only to invest a 1st rounder and their 2nd biggest FA $$ this year.  Last year's meagre investment doesn't mean they didn't value slot and want a star there, as we see by this year's investment.  It just means they thought they could "get by" with what they had (and were probably wrong). 

 

I don't think you're able to be fully reasonable in discussion  on this point - you seem so dug in on your POV that you're unable to fully recognize counter points.  I've given it my best shot, so rather than dead horse whaling, we're going to have to agree to disagree.  Ciao!

Edited August 31, 2023 by Beck Water

[NewEra]

36 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Is Christian Kirksey a better MLB than Dodson or Bernard?  Is he washed like Beasley and Brown were? 
 

They didn’t like what they saw in camp and saw an opportunity to upgrade…damn them.  
 

I’m really you focused on negativity, its so unlike you.  Taron Johnson, Christian Benford, Dawson Knox, Gabe Davis, Devin Singletary, James Cook…those are day 2/late round successes.  But lets keep focusing on day 2 and 3 misses.

Some like to focus on the present and the future while trying to find a way to improve.  
 

Some like to live in the past and cry about it.  

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Shaw, with all respect, you skate right over evidence I spelled out in plain language - the Bills picked up his 5th year option.  Why'd they do that, if MLB didn't matter to them?  Or why didn't they pick it up and then trade him, maybe for more draft capital than a 3rd round comp?

 

Speaking of draft capital, how can you square 2 3rd round picks in 2 years as "no draft capital?

 

As for prioritizing elsewhere, I think of Beane and McDermott as a sort of executive chef team.  They look at what they need, they look at what ingredients are potentially available to them, and they map out a strategy.  You want to look at their food purchase decisions and say "well they didn't buy a steak this year, they spent their money on veal and chicken, so clearly steak doesn't matter to them since they didn't buy a steak".  I say "maybe they couldn't square the quality of the available steak with its cost and with other needs, so they made a plan to live with hamburger and buy two beef calves to fatten up.  That doesn't mean they don't value steak, or that they won't buy a steak in the future".

 

That was the point of my analogy to what the Bills did last year at slot (seems similar to what they did this year at MLB), only to invest a 1st rounder and their 2nd biggest FA $$ this year.  Last year's meagre investment doesn't mean they didn't value slot and want a star there, as we see by this year's investment.  It just means they thought they could "get by" with what they had (and were probably wrong). 

 

I don't think you're able to be very rational in discussion  on this point, and I've given it my best shot, so rather than dead horse whaling, we're going to have to agree to disagree.  Ciao!

Thanks.

[LABILLBACKER]

39 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think that's exactly right.  Edmunds wasn't a heat-seeking missile when he joined the Bills, and I think McBeane hoped he would learn to become one.  Then they would have had a truly magnificent player in the middle of the defense.  I think they now look at the position as you say in the bold sentence. 

Completely agree....he was never a thumper or heat seeking missile. And over the years they also realized he rarely generated turnovers, sacks, TFL's or deflections. He did what he was told and backpedaled into the zone securing the middle.  I just don't see the Bills in the future investing anymore on an MLB as you see with RB's.  It's becoming a less important cog in your avg NFL defense. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by LABILLBACKER

[Beck Water]

46 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think that's exactly right.  Edmunds wasn't a heat-seeking missile when he joined the Bills, and I think McBeane hoped he would learn to become one.  Then they would have had a truly magnificent player in the middle of the defense.  I think they now look at the position as you say in the bold sentence. 

 

Just a little point that last season, if you look at "passer rating against", Edmunds was 30th in the league with 63.6.

 

If, by "heat seeking missile", you mean "able to seek and defend pass targets", there were only 4 LB who were better, one of whom was our own Guido Torpedo, Matt Milano, at 62.6.  There were a lot of DB who were worse last year.

 

I'll engage because I think you said something where we might be able to identify points of agreement and communicate.  I think they do believe "most, if not all MLBs, aren't really a force against passing teams".   I think they do believe a MLB who is not a force against passing teams isn't worth "much more than low-third-round picks".  

 

But I don't think it follows that they don't WANT an MLB who can be a force against passing teams.  I think if there's someone they identify who could plausibly become what they hoped Edmunds would be, they would put resources into acquiring him.  But Edmunds was the #6 FA contract this year, too rich for a team that is already paying their QB, WR1, LT, Edge, and CB on 2nd contracts, and there wasn't someone they could identify in that range. 

 

I do think they could have and should have done a bit more at MLB, but that's another story.

 

 

[ROCBillsBeliever]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

I guess we have different standards. You called two people on the board trolls. Maybe that's your way of being flawless and portraying quality. 

 

Secondly, I'm really not here to prove anything to anybody. I'm here to express my feelings and opinions and vice versa. I've posted many positive things on here. I know most of my posts are negative. I get that and I understand the displeasure many feel about that. You can always mute me.

 

I've never represented my words as gospel nor do I think I know it all. I've been humbled here many times and been wrong probably more than right. 

 

A simple apology will due chap. 

 

 

Really good post!

 

Well, to each their own. I guess I'll mute you. I just don't need more negativity in my life. Got plenty to spare. 

 

Take care, and hope you turn over a few new leaves. Maybe I will, too. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

I highly doubt that.   No way can he learn the playbook and terminology in such a short amount of time to call out defensive signals as MLB.  I think about 5 weeks is the right amount of time

He already knows the defense. Roquan Smith started the same week he was traded to Baltimore.

 

Everyone is different. It’ll really depend on his health.

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I think that's exactly right.  Edmunds wasn't a heat-seeking missile when he joined the Bills, and I think McBeane hoped he would learn to become one.  Then they would have had a truly magnificent player in the middle of the defense.  I think they now look at the position as you say in the bold sentence. 

I think they were trying to find a Luke Kuechly type like he had in Carolina. It just never materialized. 

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I think they were trying to find a Luke Kuechly type like he had in Carolina. It just never materialized. 

 

This exactly.

 

McD doesnt require an all-pro LB in the middle, but his defense sure runs a lot better with one. The problem is Edmunds never developed into an All-Pro level player. He plateaued at the Pro-Bowl Alternate level, which we all know is no where near the same.

 

In light of that, regardless of how important the position is or isnt, you dont sink $18M/year into that player.

[BillsVet]

6 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Kirksey is exactly what you need at MLB when you’re paying premium QB rates.  Like, exactly.

 

Does this mean you can't have a RD1/RD2 pick or high dollar UFA at every position now?  

 

What is Buffalo going to do?  Because, like, finding value lower in the draft or among lesser UFA's is hard. 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Is Christian Kirksey a better MLB than Dodson or Bernard?

 

Good question.  He was at one point.  At this stage in his career and coming back from a hammy, I would say "uncertain".

 

What he may be, is an upgrade on AJ Klein as that savvy vet player who knows the defense, can spot what the offense is doing and call the counter, and who can use his knowledge to compensate for elite physicality.

 

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

They didn’t like what they saw in camp and saw an opportunity to upgrade…damn them. 

 

That's really what this is.  They saw an opportunity to upgrade on AJ Klein for the practice squad and as a "plan C" in case Dodson and Bernard both fail at MLB.

 

Time will tell on everything else.

 

Some people here like to over-react on everything.  We trade an RB who is parked on the bench for Nyheim Hines, who immediately takes over the punt return duties that Crowder had been filling and that Shakir and McKenzie looked shaky with - and proceded to fill them capably all season while making limited offensive contributions.  But some here act like we traded for our own budget Christian McCaffrey who would become an immediate game-changer on offense.

 

Rationally when you look at what Hines actually accomplished before the trade, he was contributing a couple of rush attempts and a couple of receptions per game, for about 34 ypg, as well as being a solid returner.  We got a good ROI for what we sent, and what his previous history was.  Yea us!

 

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

This exactly.

 

McD doesnt require an all-pro LB in the middle, but his defense sure runs a lot better with one. The problem is Edmunds never developed into an All-Pro level player. He plateaued at the Pro-Bowl Alternate level, which we all know is no where near the same.

 

In light of that, regardless of how important the position is or isnt, you dont sink $18M/year into that player.

 

Succinct statement of what I've been trying to explain. 

And Edmunds actually took a big step in his 5th year to the point where you might say "all pro is possible from here", but you don't bet 4 year, $72M with $50M guaranteed on that after he hasn't managed it in 5.

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Good question.  He was at one point.  At this stage in his career and coming back from a hammy, I would say "uncertain".

 

What he may be, is an upgrade on AJ Klein as that savvy vet player who knows the defense, can spot what the offense is doing and call the counter, and who can use his knowledge to compensate for elite physicality.

 

 

That's really what this is.  They saw an opportunity to upgrade on AJ Klein for the practice squad and as a "plan C" in case Dodson and Bernard both fail at MLB.

 

Time will tell on everything else.

 

Some people here like to over-react on everything.  We trade an RB who is parked on the bench for Nyheim Hines, who immediately takes over the punt return duties that Crowder had been filling and that Shakir and McKenzie looked shaky with - and proceded to fill them capably all season while making limited offensive contributions.  But some here act like we traded for our own budget Christian McCaffrey who would become an immediate game-changer on offense.

 

Rationally when you look at what Hines actually accomplished before the trade, he was contributing a couple of rush attempts and a couple of receptions per game, for about 34 ypg, as well as being a solid returner.  We got a good ROI for what we sent, and what his previous history was.  Yea us!

 

 

I think this Kirksey move means they would trust him to be in the right spot.  He might have slowed down physically as players do but with the youth of Bernard/Dodson and still going out and getting Kirksey....they simply don't trust them.

 

McDermott will take chances on players with physical limitations like a Levi Wallace, if he can trust they will at least be where they are supposed to.  

[Beck Water]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I think this Kirksey move means they would trust him to be in the right spot.  He might have slowed down physically as players do but with the youth of Bernard/Dodson and still going out and getting Kirksey....they simply don't trust them.

 

McDermott will take chances on players with physical limitations like a Levi Wallace, if he can trust they will at least be where they are supposed to.  

 

I'm not sure it means anything more than that they think Kirksey should be an upgrade on AJ Klein at this point.  After all, they had the youth of Bernard/Dodson and they still went out and re-signed AJ Klein.  Who looked, in game 3, like he couldn't be trusted to be where he was supposed to, because he simply wasn't able to get there.

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

Shaw, with all respect, you skate right over evidence I spelled out in plain language - the Bills picked up his 5th year option.  Why'd they do that, if MLB didn't matter to them?  Or why didn't they pick it up and then trade him, maybe for more draft capital than a 3rd round comp?

 

Speaking of draft capital, how can you square 2 3rd round picks in 2 years as "no draft capital"?  Seriously?

 

As for prioritizing elsewhere, I think of Beane and McDermott as a sort of executive chef team.  They look at what they need, they look at what ingredients are potentially available to them, and they map out a strategy.  You want to look at their food purchase decisions and say "well they didn't buy a steak this year, they spent their money on veal and chicken, so clearly steak doesn't matter to them since they didn't buy a steak".  I say "maybe they couldn't square the quality of the available steak with its cost and with other menu needs, so they made a plan to live with hamburger, buy two beef calves to fatten up for the future, and fund the organic chicken and prime veal they need.  That doesn't mean they don't value steak, or that they won't buy a steak in the future".

 

That was the point of my analogy to what the Bills did last year at slot (seems similar to what they did this year at MLB), only to invest a 1st rounder and their 2nd biggest FA $$ this year.  Last year's meagre investment doesn't mean they didn't value slot and want a star there, as we see by this year's investment.  It just means they thought they could "get by" with what they had (and were probably wrong). 

 

I don't think you're able to be fully reasonable in discussion  on this point - you seem so dug in on your POV that you're unable to fully recognize counter points.  I've given it my best shot, so rather than dead horse whaling, we're going to have to agree to disagree.  Ciao!

I think the Beane was really going to resign Edmunds. All indications pointed that way. Thinking he might even take a slight discount to stay in Buffalo

 

Things changed when the Bears massively overpaid for him. At that point, there's no way Beane could resign him. 

 

Now Beane had to make another tough decision on Oliver. That decision was made much easier with the departure of Edmunds. Additionally, the Bills are pretty thin in this department too. So it was prudent to sign Oliver on what looks to be a pretty fair level of compensation.

 

Of course, the MLB void still existed. I truly believe Jack Campbell was their guy. No proof of that just my opinion. Kincaid still on the board with no Campbell was an easy decision. The Dorian Williams pick is a hard scratcher. Not sure I get it to this day. Maybe, I'm just not that smart. Seems like every draft Beane does a WTF...

 

Free agency is the next option. Seems like the available FAs weren't a good fit or really not true MLB. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

Last resort, Beane decides to stay the course with the available MLBs on the roster. One of them will hopefully take a step forward and at least be serviceable. Not a crazy notion and still a possibility. Training camp and pre season seems to show the liability at the position. Beane has to do something.

 

The Kirksey signing. Is he great? Is he elite? No and no. Is it a solid signing? Yes. He brings experience and some skill to the forefront. You can't hate the free move sort of speak. I guess you could absolutely critique the process of how things evolved. 

 

Let's hope the MLB position isn't the Achilles heal of the defense. I don't agree that it's an insignificant position. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by newcam2012

[newcam2012]

18 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

This exactly.

 

McD doesnt require an all-pro LB in the middle, but his defense sure runs a lot better with one. The problem is Edmunds never developed into an All-Pro level player. He plateaued at the Pro-Bowl Alternate level, which we all know is no where near the same.

 

In light of that, regardless of how important the position is or isnt, you dont sink $18M/year into that player.

I can say with some confidence the bears fans will be disappointed in Edmunds. I hope not because I wish Edmunds well and I have nothing against the NFC Bears.