Kirksey signing with the Bills PS

[NewEra]

15 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Welcome to ignore troll.

This is the one you don’t want to ignore.  You’ll miss all the greatness

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

13 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Right. But he can still be poached.  He could say yes.  If it’s a couple weeks from now and he’s still not starting, anything can happen.  

 

If hes not starting in a couple weeks then hopefully that means one of the other guys is doing well 🙂

 

I think he'll still be on the roster in a couple of weeks either way though for depth.  

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Which is similar to AJ Klein. Low 50s is really bad on their system.

Sorry, not seeing this as an upgrade over what we've got.

And yes, we will miss Edmunds. A lot.

 

 

Well, the 2020 and 2021 teams went further than the 2022 Bills did and that was with Edmunds playing low 50's grade MLB.

 

I know there are still people out there......perhaps like yourself......who think you need a star RB.........and MLB's have always mirrored the RB position in terms of importance so some people think that's just as important as a star RB.

 

But the reality CLEARLY does not align with that old school thinking.   

 

 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Which is similar to AJ Klein. Low 50s is really bad on their system.

Sorry, not seeing this as an upgrade over what we've got.

And yes, we will miss Edmunds. A lot.

 

Yes the drop off from Edmunds to Kirksey will be felt. That's a different conversation from if re-signing Edmunds was a good choice though. I accept that Kirksey is a downgrade, maybe even a substantial one, but I'd still take him and his contract over Edmunds and his.

[Shaw66]

I want to revive a discussion I started a few days ago.  I don't know what thread it was in, but with the Kirksey signing, the discussion is relevant here. 

 

I said a few days ago that middle linebacker is, in the view of McDermott and Beane, the least most important position on the defense.  I think Beane more or less confirmed that in his press conference.  He said two things, both of which seemed clear before the presser, but now he's left no doubt. 

 

One thing he said was, in so many ways, was that they don't have very good talent at middle linebacker.   He struggled and hemmed and hawed when he talked about the position, but that's what he said.   He essentially said they're hoping someone will step up.   In the presser he said that they're expecting everyone playing around the middle linebacker, whoever he is, to pick up a bit of the slack.   In other words, they have surrounded the weakest player in the starting lineup with talent, and they hope they can hide the weakness in the middle.  

 

It's apparent that they were comfortable being in that position, because from the time they decided they weren't bringing Edmunds back, they did pretty much nothing to fill the position.  They were content to wait to pick up someone after the other teams made their final cuts.  No free agent signings, no high draft pick dedicated to the position.   They may have lucked out, because they possibly found a quality starter, but that was and is not a sure thing.  They were willing to take that risk.  

 

Finally, he was very clear they ran out of money.  He said when you have your quarterback and then you sign some guys like Tre and Von, you don't have enough money for all the positions.   The clear implication was that they decided that middle linebacker, for the reasons above, was the position that they decided they could go cheap on.   He implied that they made a conscious decision not to allocate money or draft capital to the position.   (Also, in talking about Basham, he was clear that getting some cap room back was a consideration.  In other words, if you're on the bubble, a relatively big contract doesn't help.)

 

And, by the way, in discussing why Elam hasn't progressed, he mentioned that when you're a rookie on a really good team, it's tough to progress to the starting job, because there's solid competition.   Then, as an example, he mention Dorian Williams and suggested that, despite how well he played in camp, he's not taking Milano's job.   Makes me think, again, that he's the guy whom we will see in the middle sooner or later.  

 

[Motorin']

14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Well, the 2020 and 2021 teams went further than the 2022 Bills did and that was with Edmunds playing low 50's grade MLB.

 

I know there are still people out there......perhaps like yourself......who think you need a star RB.........and MLB's have always mirrored the RB position in terms of importance so some people think that's just as important as a star RB.

 

But the reality CLEARLY does not align with that old school thinking.   

 

 

 

Kirksey performed last year. 125 tackles, over 80 solo. The most combined tackles Klein has ever had was 75. 

 

Kirksey is a clear upgrade to any LB on the roster not named after an Italian cookie, even if he's more of a WIL than true Mike. 

[The Frankish Reich]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yes the drop off from Edmunds to Kirksey will be felt. That's a different conversation from if re-signing Edmunds was a good choice though. I accept that Kirksey is a downgrade, maybe even a substantial one, but I'd still take him and his contract over Edmunds and his.

Oh, I agree with that. They simply couldn't pay everyone, so they made the tough decision to let Edmunds walk.

But MLB will be an adventure without him this year since Kirksey, Klein (could he be cut when Kirksey is activated?) and the young guys simply provide no reason for us to believe they'll be able to fill his shoes.

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yes the drop off from Edmunds to Kirksey will be felt. That's a different conversation from if re-signing Edmunds was a good choice though. I accept that Kirksey is a downgrade, maybe even a substantial one, but I'd still take him and his contract over Edmunds and his.

Yes, and that's another way of saying what I just said.  McBeane clearly agree with you.  They were willing to trade Edmunds and his contract for Kirksey and his.   What's amazing, is that they even were willing to let Edmunds and his contract go with no assurance at all that they'd get Kirksey or his equivalent.  The were willing to live with Dodson and Klein and Bernard and hope that one would emerge or some decent talent would show up as a free agent between February and the final cuts.   Lo and behold, there was Kirksey.  

 

I think the drop off in talent will be felt less than you might think.  Beane said they have counting on all the other players to step up.   What that means is that everyone's assignment on the defense has been adjusted a bit.  DB's responsibilities in the zone are slightly different, for example.   But, because Kirksey almost certainly will be a better blitzer and run stopped than Edmunds, the assignments for the defensive line also will adjust, for the better.  (Put another way, Frazier always had to adjust assignments because he knew that there were some things Edmunds didn't do well. )  The defense always is adjusted, and the offense, too, depending on the strengths and weaknesses of each player.   

Edited August 31, 2023 by Shaw66

[DrDawkinstein]

41 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Right. But he can still be poached.  He could say yes.  If it’s a couple weeks from now and he’s still not starting, anything can happen.  

 

Sure, anything can happen. But I believe the Bills get a chance to block it by elevating him to the active roster. Like a right of first refusal.

 

So if he is poached then it would mean it didnt work out for both the player and the team. No real loss there.

[The Frankish Reich]

39 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Kirksey weighing over 230 pounds is Evidence #1 that he'll be better than those two

Well, no.

Bigger is great if it doesn't bring along slower. In McD's defense, slower is a problem.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Kirksey performed last year. 125 tackles, over 80 solo. The most combined tackles Klein has ever had was 75. 

 

Kirksey is a clear upgrade to any LB on the roster not named after an Italian cookie, even if he's more of a WIL than true Mike. 

 

 

If healthy.........I absolutely agree.

 

And at league minimum versus $18M aav........sign me up for that.

[Shaw66]

23 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Well, the 2020 and 2021 teams went further than the 2022 Bills did and that was with Edmunds playing low 50's grade MLB.

 

I know there are still people out there......perhaps like yourself......who think you need a star RB.........and MLB's have always mirrored the RB position in terms of importance so some people think that's just as important as a star RB.

 

But the reality CLEARLY does not align with that old school thinking.   

 

 

I agree.   I think the reality in today's NFL is that most teams understand that you can always find a guy to play running back, and you can always find a guy to play middle linebacker, and in both cases your team doesn't suffer if all you have is just a guy in those two positions.  You'd always like to have more than that, but the productivity of your offense or defense just doesn't suffer very much if you have just a guy.  

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Yes, and that's another way of saying what I just said.  McBeane clearly agree with you.  They were willing to trade Edmunds and his contract for Kirksey and his.   What's amazing, is that they even were willing to let Edmunds and his contract go with no assurance at all that they'd get Kirksey or his equivalent.  The were willing to live with Dodson and Klein and Bernard and hope that one would emerge or some decent talent would show up as a free agent between February and the final cuts.   Lo and behold, there was Kirksey.  

 

 

It's not amazing if you follow the NFL closely enough to realize that MLB is probably the least important position in an NFL defense anymore.   

 

Just like a RB might get the most touches of any offensive player...........a MLB might make the most tackles..........but neither are winning games for you.

 

[Coach Tuesday]

20 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I want to revive a discussion I started a few days ago.  I don't know what thread it was in, but with the Kirksey signing, the discussion is relevant here. 

 

I said a few days ago that middle linebacker is, in the view of McDermott and Beane, the least most important position on the defense.  I think Beane more or less confirmed that in his press conference.  He said two things, both of which seemed clear before the presser, but now he's left no doubt. 

 

One thing he said was, in so many ways, was that they don't have very good talent at middle linebacker.   He struggled and hemmed and hawed when he talked about the position, but that's what he said.   He essentially said they're hoping someone will step up.   In the presser he said that they're expecting everyone playing around the middle linebacker, whoever he is, to pick up a bit of the slack.   In other words, they have surrounded the weakest player in the starting lineup with talent, and they hope they can hide the weakness in the middle.  

 

It's apparent that they were comfortable being in that position, because from the time they decided they weren't bringing Edmunds back, they did pretty much nothing to fill the position.  They were content to wait to pick up someone after the other teams made their final cuts.  No free agent signings, no high draft pick dedicated to the position.   They may have lucked out, because they possibly found a quality starter, but that was and is not a sure thing.  They were willing to take that risk.  

 

Finally, he was very clear they ran out of money.  He said when you have your quarterback and then you sign some guys like Tre and Von, you don't have enough money for all the positions.   The clear implication was that they decided that middle linebacker, for the reasons above, was the position that they decided they could go cheap on.   He implied that they made a conscious decision not to allocate money or draft capital to the position.   (Also, in talking about Basham, he was clear that getting some cap room back was a consideration.  In other words, if you're on the bubble, a relatively big contract doesn't help.)

 

And, by the way, in discussing why Elam hasn't progressed, he mentioned that when you're a rookie on a really good team, it's tough to progress to the starting job, because there's solid competition.   Then, as an example, he mention Dorian Williams and suggested that, despite how well he played in camp, he's not taking Milano's job.   Makes me think, again, that he's the guy whom we will see in the middle sooner or later.  

 

 

16 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Yes, and that's another way of saying what I just said.  McBeane clearly agree with you.  They were willing to trade Edmunds and his contract for Kirksey and his.   What's amazing, is that they even were willing to let Edmunds and his contract go with no assurance at all that they'd get Kirksey or his equivalent.  The were willing to live with Dodson and Klein and Bernard and hope that one would emerge or some decent talent would show up as a free agent between February and the final cuts.   Lo and behold, there was Kirksey.  

 

I think the drop off in talent will be felt less than you might think.  Beane said they have counting on all the other players to step up.   What that means is that everyone's assignment on the defense has been adjusted a bit.  DB's responsibilities in the zone are slightly different, for example.   But, because Kirksey almost certainly will be a better blitzer and run stopped than Edmunds, the assignments for the defensive line also will adjust, for the better.  (Put another way, Frazier always had to adjust assignments because he knew that there were some things Edmunds didn't do well. )  The defense always is adjusted, and the offense, too, depending on the strengths and weaknesses of each player.   

 

Sorry but these are just poor takes.

 

If McBeane agreed that MLB is the least-important position in the defense, they would not have invested such high draft capital in him to begin with.  Edmunds underperformed relative to their expectations (lack of big plays) or they likely would've found a way to pay him at the expense of, for example, Ed Oliver.  And had they done that, the same group of us would've been criticizing the contract and a group of fans like yourself would be replying with, "Well, McBeane obviously prioritizes MLB for their defenses and who are you mere mortals to be questioning them?"  I don't mean to pick on you but these tautological arguments become exhausting - "X happened, therefore McBeane must have wanted X to happen."  

 

If McBeane truly believes MLB lacks importance than Edmunds was an objectively terrible draft pick.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Coach Tuesday

[BADOLBILZ]

8 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Well, no.

Bigger is great if it doesn't bring along slower. In McD's defense, slower is a problem.

 

 

Which defense is slow not a problem in anymore?    I haven't seen that one in the NFL in the last decade or so.

 

"McD's defense" has been predicated on giving teams all of the short gains they want and hoping they make mistakes in execution.

 

Edmunds was something of a failure in that role because he didn't cause offense's to make mistakes when the opportunities presented themselves.

 

In your opinion low 50's PFF level performance from a MLB is "really bad"...........but that's all they got from Edmunds for 4 seasons and he was never the reason they didn't reach a SB.    

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

 

Sorry but these are just poor takes.

 

If McBeane agreed that MLB is the least-important position in the defense, they would not have invested such high draft capital in him to begin with.  Edmunds underperformed relative to their expectations (lack of big plays) or they likely would've found a way to pay him at the expense of, for example, Ed Oliver.  And had they done that, the same group of us would've been criticizing the contract and a group of fans like yourself would be replying with, "Well, McBeane obviously prioritizes MLB for their defenses and who are you mere mortals to be questioning them?"  I don't mean to pick on you but these tautological arguments become exhausting - "X happened, therefore McBeane must have wanted X to happen."  

I think McBeane's philosophy about the position has evolved since drafting Edmunds.   They were running the team with the memory of Keuchle fresh in their minds.  

 

But it's very simple.   If they thought in 2022 and 2023 that middle linebacker was the linchpin in the defense, they would have done something to keep Edmunds or get a high-end replacement.  So far as we can tell, they didn't try at all.  

 

I think what they learned from Edmunds, is that they can have a very good defense without an All-Pro middle linebacker.   Look at the cap room they spent on Miller, Oliver, and Floyd.   There simply can be no question that they believe the game can be played best with talent on the defensive line and less talent at middle linebacker.  Look at the money they spent to re-sign White and keep Poyer, and the draft capital they spent on Elam.  

 

Beane consciously spent more or less nothing on a middle linebacker.  He told us that in his presser.  I don't think there's any question that they're thinking about the defense has evolved since they traded up for Edmunds.  

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Edmunds was something of a failure in that role because he didn't cause offense's to make mistakes when the opportunities presented themselves.

True, I didn't see the INTs, the forced fumbles, the sacks.

But that's a narrow view of what counts as "making mistakes." Not giving up the big play, making an offense sustain a 12 play drive without a holding penalty, a dropped catch, a false start causing a 1st and 15 ... all of those things are critical to a bend but don't break philosophy. And Edmunds was a very good fit for that.

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

They were running the team with the memory of Keuchle fresh in their minds.  

Yep. It's great to build a defense around a strong MLB when you happen to have Luke Kuechly.

They may have hoped that Edmunds would be that guy, and of course he wasn't. So maybe some of this has to do with the realization that you aren't gonna find another Kuechly but you can still be a great defense.

[Coach Tuesday]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

I think McBeane's philosophy about the position has evolved since drafting Edmunds.   They were running the team with the memory of Keuchle fresh in their minds.  

 

But it's very simple.   If they thought in 2022 and 2023 that middle linebacker was the linchpin in the defense, they would have done something to keep Edmunds or get a high-end replacement.  So far as we can tell, they didn't try at all.  

 

I think what they learned from Edmunds, is that they can have a very good defense without an All-Pro middle linebacker.   Look at the cap room they spent on Miller, Oliver, and Floyd.   There simply can be no question that they believe the game can be played best with talent on the defensive line and less talent at middle linebacker.  Look at the money they spent to re-sign White and keep Poyer, and the draft capital they spent on Elam.  

 

Beane consciously spent more or less nothing on a middle linebacker.  He told us that in his presser.  I don't think there's any question that they're thinking about the defense has evolved since they traded up for Edmunds.  

 

Again, you are inferring from what happened that it must have been their plan all along.

 

If Edmunds made game-changing plays - INTs, forced fumbles, sacks - do you think they would've let him walk without aggressively trying to re-sign him?

 

If the answer to the above is "yes," what is that based on?  They used expensive draft capital on him and talked him up constantly during his tenure here.

 

If the answer to the above is "no," then why did they draft him in the first place?  And why didn't they do a more thorough job finding his replacement before dumpster-diving through the $1 CD bin less than 2 weeks away from the season opener?  

 

If their view has really "evolved," as you say, there is little evidence of that other than the secret wish that the front office always has a perfect plan.

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Which defense is slow not a problem in anymore?    I haven't seen that one in the NFL in the last decade or so.

 

"McD's defense" has been predicated on giving teams all of the short gains they want and hoping they make mistakes in execution.

 

Edmunds was something of a failure in that role because he didn't cause offense's to make mistakes when the opportunities presented themselves.

 

In your opinion low 50's PFF level performance from a MLB is "really bad"...........but that's all they got from Edmunds for 4 seasons and he was never the reason they didn't reach a SB.    

Excellent points, particularly the bolded.   He didn't get takeaways, he didn't get pass breakups, even though he was generally pretty good at dropping into coverage.  And he didn't make a lot of plays moving forward.   He was an ineffective blitzer and a mediocre run stopper.  His talent was that he could occupy a lot of space in the middle of the zone, and that gave the DBs an edge.  That will be missed, but McDermott's been adjusting defensive assignments for six months to cover that problem.  

 

[Coach Tuesday]

Just now, Shaw66 said:

 That will be missed, but McDermott's been adjusting defensive assignments for six months to cover that problem.  

 

And yet - they just signed a street FA in the hopes that he will step into that role by early season.  And cut outright the guy who was taking starter's reps in the preseason.  

 

Hope is not a plan.