McDermott & Beane Extended Through 2027

[oldmanfan]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Jim Kelly in his entire career rushed for a little over 1000 yards and averaged less than 1 TD/season. Josh Allen has rushed for over 750yards in a single year (twice) and averages about 8TDs on the ground. 

 

Find me even one quantifiable thing Kelly does better than Allen. 

Comparing performances 30 years apart can’t be done because of all the rule changes.  Kelly and the K Gun dominated teams.  And while Allen has maybe the strongest arm ever Kelly could make all the throws.  All of them. It is ridiculous to say Josh as talented as he is, is head and shoulders above a first ballot HOFer.

[Einstein]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

 

It is ridiculous to say Josh as talented as he is, is head and shoulders above a first ballot HOFer.

 

A rather solid argument could be made that Kelly would not be a top 5 QB in todays NFL. 

[GoBills808]

37 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Comparing performances 30 years apart can’t be done because of all the rule changes.  Kelly and the K Gun dominated teams.  And while Allen has maybe the strongest arm ever Kelly could make all the throws.  All of them. It is ridiculous to say Josh as talented as he is, is head and shoulders above a first ballot HOFer.

So nothing then👍👍

[oldmanfan]

29 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

A rather solid argument could be made that Kelly would not be a top 5 QB in todays NFL. 

And you could say that about his contemporaries as well.   How well would the current guys do 30 years ago when guys like Bruce could actually hit QBs?  Similar rational is why numbers for guys like Kelly, Marino and Elway exceeded HOFers from the 60s when DBs could mug receivers.  You judge guys by the era they played in.

 

Guys like Kelly and Marino could be expected to throw for 5000 yards today, given the rules that favor the passing game today.  Allen will likely be a HOFer too.  It is stupid to run down a former first round HOFer to support him.

 

I would like to know how many criticizing Kelly actually saw him play.

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

So nothing then👍👍

Nothing but common sense.

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

Have to admit, I laughed at how pathetic that is.

Sarcasm is a mighty tool, 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

And you could say that about his contemporaries as well.   How well would the current guys do 30 years ago when guys like Bruce could actually hit QBs?  Similar rational is why numbers for guys like Kelly, Marino and Elway exceeded HOFers from the 60s when DBs could mug receivers.  You judge guys by the era they played in.

 

Guys like Kelly and Marino could be expected to throw for 5000 yards today, given the rules that favor the passing game today.  Allen will likely be a HOFer too.  It is stupid to run down a former first round HOFer to support him.

 

I would like to know how many criticizing Kelly actually saw him play.

Nothing but common sense.

Good points.  And of the modern QB's I suspect Allen might actually do the best in a football world of Bruce & Reggie.

 

 

[oldmanfan]

22 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Good points.  And of the modern QB's I suspect Allen might actually do the best in a football world of Bruce & Reggie.

 

 

He’d withstand the physical hits better than most

[newcam2012]

11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah if Josh Allen doesn't have to run 7-8x per game for upwards of 40-50 yards to keep the offense on schedule and remain top 2-3 in the league.........then they will have likely solved the problem of not-good-enough weapons around him.    The organization says they want him to take less hits but they don't say let's just punt the ball once or twice more per game instead.    The last two seasons he's had to run more......and extend those runs......in order to keep the chains moving and maintain the kind of offensive pace that they established in 2020.    By comparison,  Patrick Mahomes has had better weapons and/or a better OL and runs about half as often.    

KC is an elite team with elite coaching. Their Oline is very good. Dare I say they are a dynasty team. They are at a whole different level than the Bills. Don't get fooled by regular season wins. 

 

If you take a closer look at their offensive roster it's not impressive. Mahomes, Kelce and a bunch of fill ins and role players. 

 

As for the Bills and Allen's role moving forward. I'm not really against Allen running seven or eight times a game. Of course, I'm not advocating reckless running and taking unnecessary hits. I feel Allen can mostly handle the hits very well. There's a five year sample saying so. RPOs can absolutely be effective and keep other defenses off balance. 

 

I don't want to see a limited, restricted, or chained up version of Allen. Part of his greatness is his legs and his running. (Not saying you are implying this.) I trust Allen to make the right decisions. 

 

I can totally see where 5 to 7 Allen runs can work well within the confines of a well oiled Bills offense. To boot, he's an absolute beast in the redzone. 

 

Go Bills.

 

 

11 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

It's no coincidence that the season we had the best weapons and o-line (2020) was the lowest rushing production and attempts per game of his career by a healthy margin.  I'd like to see them get back to that and it's why I think Beane's biggest mistake this offseason was not finding an upgrade to Spencer Brown.  I do understand though his limited options given the cap space and scarcity of free agents at the right tackle position.

No doubt Brown is a concern going into this season. Hopefully, he is able to be effective and not a liability. 

 

Beane had to make some tough choices. 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

 

If you take a closer look at their offensive roster it's not impressive. Mahomes, Kelce and a bunch of fill ins and role players. 

 

Think you mean the skill positions rather than the offensive roster. As you acknowledged earlier in your post their oline is pretty good.... their interior Thuney - Humphrey - Smith might be the best interior in the NFL. Left tackle is a question mark going into this season but they have upgraded at tight tackle if that is where Jawaan Taylor ends up playing. 

[newcam2012]

22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Think you mean the skill positions rather than the offensive roster. As you acknowledged earlier in your post their oline is pretty good.... their interior Thuney - Humphrey - Smith might be the best interior in the NFL. Left tackle is a question mark going into this season but they have upgraded at tight tackle if that is where Jawaan Taylor ends up playing. 

Absolutely correct. Thanks for clarifying. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I just did a head coach ranking and I have McDermott somewhere between 10th-15th overall.

 

Beane is top 5 GM. 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

https://youtu.be/tW3E6ugNpFk

[BADOLBILZ]

12 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

KC is an elite team with elite coaching. Their Oline is very good. Dare I say they are a dynasty team. They are at a whole different level than the Bills. Don't get fooled by regular season wins. 

 

If you take a closer look at their offensive roster it's not impressive. Mahomes, Kelce and a bunch of fill ins and role players. 

 

As for the Bills and Allen's role moving forward. I'm not really against Allen running seven or eight times a game. Of course, I'm not advocating reckless running and taking unnecessary hits. I feel Allen can mostly handle the hits very well. There's a five year sample saying so. RPOs can absolutely be effective and keep other defenses off balance. 

 

I don't want to see a limited, restricted, or chained up version of Allen. Part of his greatness is his legs and his running. (Not saying you are implying this.) I trust Allen to make the right decisions. 

 

I can totally see where 5 to 7 Allen runs can work well within the confines of a well oiled Bills offense. To boot, he's an absolute beast in the redzone. 

 

Go Bills.

 

 

No doubt Brown is a concern going into this season. Hopefully, he is able to be effective and not a liability. 

 

Beane had to make some tough choices. 

 

KC is a good organization with a great QB.   So is Buffalo.   The notable differences between the two are how they allocate their assets first and the combination of Reid and Spagnuolo's experience second.    

 

First, they surround Mahomes with better talent than the Bills do,  by investing more into that side of the ball.   Indisputably so.

 

And Reid was the NFL's biggest playoff choker of the 2000's for the first 20 years of his HC career.   In fact, his teams have still been upset in the playoffs 3 times in the last 6 years.   But with the talent at his disposal on offense and Spags SB winning coordinator experience coaching up their relatively modest investments on D,  Reid has been able to focus on fiddling with his play sheet a lot more instead of the game management that he has always struggled with when playing with closer or inferior talent margins on offense.   Winning a SB finally has made him look like a genius and makes people forget him blowing so many playoff games in his career.......including AFC title games at home to NE and Cinci in the last 5 years.   And forget that he was 2 games under .500 in the playoffs after his first 20 years.    

 

I'm not going to argue that the Chiefs aren't going to become a dynasty because winning SB's is how you judge that and they are 1 win away from that distinction.........but they haven't manhandled the competition so let's not get carried away with the praise either.    They won 2 closely contested SB games and got blown out as a prohibitive favorite in that span.    Impressive but hardly the Steel Curtain of the 70's or the Cowboys of the 90's.

 

As far as Allen running the ball 7-8 times per game..........Cam Newton had a 5 year sample too.   He used to bounce back up and laugh after every hit like nothing hurt him.  His career got cut short.      

 

QB's don't take the level of punishment over the long haul that Allen has endured the past couple of seasons and not have it shorten their careers.

 

It's gotta' revert to 2020 level at least........where he can run but can get down and not have to get 6 yards per rush attempt.    I'm not saying I am looking forward to a lot less athleticism from Allen because watching guys like Tom Brady or Joe Burrow play the position is as to watch paint dry.   Boring AF by comparison.    But there needs to be a medium.    Mahomes is right there.    About half as many rush attempts as Josh.

 

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

KC is a good organization with a great QB.   So is Buffalo.   The notable differences between the two are how they allocate their assets first and the combination of Reid and Spagnuolo's experience second.    

 

First, they surround Mahomes with better talent than the Bills do,  by investing more into that side of the ball.   Indisputably so.

 

And Reid was the NFL's biggest playoff choker of the 2000's for the first 20 years of his HC career.   In fact, his teams have still been upset in the playoffs 3 times in the last 6 years.   But with the talent at his disposal on offense and Spags SB winning coordinator experience coaching up their relatively modest investments on D,  Reid has been able to focus on fiddling with his play sheet a lot more instead of the game management that he has always struggled with when playing with closer or inferior talent margins on offense.   Winning a SB finally has made him look like a genius and makes people forget him blowing so many playoff games in his career.......including AFC title games at home to NE and Cinci in the last 5 years.   And forget that he was 2 games under .500 in the playoffs after his first 20 years.    

 

I'm not going to argue that the Chiefs aren't going to become a dynasty because winning SB's is how you judge that and they are 1 win away from that distinction.........but they haven't manhandled the competition so let's not get carried away with the praise either.    They won 2 closely contested SB games and got blown out as a prohibitive favorite in that span.    Impressive but hardly the Steel Curtain of the 70's or the Cowboys of the 90's.

 

As far as Allen running the ball 7-8 times per game..........Cam Newton had a 5 year sample too.   He used to bounce back up and laugh after every hit like nothing hurt him.  His career got cut short.      

 

QB's don't take the level of punishment over the long haul that Allen has endured the past couple of seasons and not have it shorten their careers.

 

It's gotta' revert to 2020 level at least........where he can run but can get down and not have to get 6 yards per rush attempt.    I'm not saying I am looking forward to a lot less athleticism from Allen because watching guys like Tom Brady or Joe Burrow play the position is as to watch paint dry.   Boring AF by comparison.    But there needs to be a medium.    Mahomes is right there.    About half as many rush attempts as Josh.

 

Great insight here and post. Not much to quibble about. A few thoughts:

 

We can only hope McD learns how to lead his team to a SB party. Reid has certainly turned it around. Mahomes clearly has a lot to do with that. Nevertheless, Reid deservedly get credit too. Unfortunately, there is no correlation beteeen Reid and McD. People use this as an example to support McD. Time will tell what transpires. 

 

As for Allen. I think Cam is a poor example. The game was much different back then. Defenses could crush QBs out of the pocket. Refs seemingly allowed Cam to take more punishment than others. I see no issues with smartly running Allen. It's a risk worth taking because Allen is that good and it causes so much disruption for a defense. 

 

I will also add that QBs are much more likely to get hurt passing the ball. You hardly hear anyone calling for less Allen passing. Or at the very least you never hear someone say Allen should pass less due to injury concerns. 

 

Lastly, we can debate the level of goodness with regards to KC and Buffalo. KCs ability to represent the AFC and win SBs is impressive. It's not a one off and they didn't miss a beat when they traded away arguably the best WR in the game. Truly a feat that is very impressive. Buffalo has fallen short at a somewhat alarming rate come playoff time. That has to change...KC and Cinci seem to be standing in the way. I'm not convinced Buffalo will be victorious. 

 

 

[WotAGuy]

12 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I just did a head coach ranking and I have McDermott somewhere between 10th-15th overall.

 

Beane is top 5 GM. 

 

 

 

Sounds like you have enough data to predict McDermott’s “leash”. 🤣

[BADOLBILZ]

13 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I just did a head coach ranking and I have McDermott somewhere between 10th-15th overall.

 

Beane is top 5 GM. 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd flip those, if anything.

 

Talent evaluation is a big weakness for Beane.   He's not a scout, he's a suit and he's good at the executive duties.    But wrt personnel his strength has just been that he's been given an unlimited checkbook.    His track record in free agency is just brutal.   McDermott is nowhere near as bad at anything as Beane has been wrt pro personnel.     In the draft he's been better but has some clear strategic flaws......like drafting RB's early three times now and/or reaching for perceived needs in round 2.

 

I'm hoping he gets better as a talent evaluator.    Howie Roseman got better,  hopefully Beane does the same.

 

  

[Mikie2times]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

KC is a good organization with a great QB.   So is Buffalo.   The notable differences between the two are how they allocate their assets first and the combination of Reid and Spagnuolo's experience second.    

 

First, they surround Mahomes with better talent than the Bills do,  by investing more into that side of the ball.   Indisputably so.

 

And Reid was the NFL's biggest playoff choker of the 2000's for the first 20 years of his HC career.   In fact, his teams have still been upset in the playoffs 3 times in the last 6 years.   But with the talent at his disposal on offense and Spags SB winning coordinator experience coaching up their relatively modest investments on D,  Reid has been able to focus on fiddling with his play sheet a lot more instead of the game management that he has always struggled with when playing with closer or inferior talent margins on offense.   Winning a SB finally has made him look like a genius and makes people forget him blowing so many playoff games in his career.......including AFC title games at home to NE and Cinci in the last 5 years.   And forget that he was 2 games under .500 in the playoffs after his first 20 years.    

 

I'm not going to argue that the Chiefs aren't going to become a dynasty because winning SB's is how you judge that and they are 1 win away from that distinction.........but they haven't manhandled the competition so let's not get carried away with the praise either.    They won 2 closely contested SB games and got blown out as a prohibitive favorite in that span.    Impressive but hardly the Steel Curtain of the 70's or the Cowboys of the 90's.

 

As far as Allen running the ball 7-8 times per game..........Cam Newton had a 5 year sample too.   He used to bounce back up and laugh after every hit like nothing hurt him.  His career got cut short.      

 

QB's don't take the level of punishment over the long haul that Allen has endured the past couple of seasons and not have it shorten their careers.

 

It's gotta' revert to 2020 level at least........where he can run but can get down and not have to get 6 yards per rush attempt.    I'm not saying I am looking forward to a lot less athleticism from Allen because watching guys like Tom Brady or Joe Burrow play the position is as to watch paint dry.   Boring AF by comparison.    But there needs to be a medium.    Mahomes is right there.    About half as many rush attempts as Josh.

 

Good post and I'm not trying to be negative, but I don't think the data indicates the Chiefs invest more on offense than the Bills. In literal money, the Bills have 101.6 million outside QB going to the offense and KC has 95.2 million in 2023. KC has only selected 4 picks in the last 4 drafts in the top 3 rounds on offense. I also had the same perception which is why I knew the numbers. I was shocked when I saw them and remember looking at the total salary spread and thinking we have basically mirrored the allocation of our salary to them. I would say we differ a pretty good deal on LB and DB. They also spend more on DL, but we spend a lot in that area as well.  They just REALLY spend. 

[BADOLBILZ]

9 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Good post and I'm not trying to be negative, but I don't think the data indicates the Chiefs invest more on offense than the Bills. In literal money, the Bills have 101.6 million outside QB going to the offense and KC has 95.2 million in 2023. KC has only selected 4 picks in the last 4 drafts in the top 3 rounds on offense. I also had the same perception which is why I knew the numbers. I was shocked when I saw them and remember looking at the total salary spread and thinking we have basically mirrored the allocation of our salary to them. I would say we differ a pretty good deal on LB and DB. They also spend more on DL, but we spend a lot in that area as well.  They just REALLY spend. 

 

Yeah the Bills have thrown a bunch of 3rd rounders into the offense in recent years so if you want to draw the line THERE it looks closer.........but the Chiefs have used a 1st or 2nd round pick.....the real big chips......on offense every year since 2019.

 

The Chiefs have clearly invested a lot more big chips into the OL.   Making Joe Thuney highest paid G in the NFL in 2021.   First rounder and franchise money for Orlando Brown in 2021.   $20M aav for Jawaan Taylor in 2023.  

 

They have 3 WR on their roster that are 1st or 2nd rounders in the past 3 drafts.  

 

Also worth noting that the Bills have made the mistake of using 3 picks in the first 3 rounds on RB's........the Chiefs have only done so once........and those picks depreciate rapidly once driven off the lot.   Cook is the only 1 of the 4 who figures prominently in the plans for their team. 

 

So I think the gap wider than your analysis leads you to believe.    Beane has admittedly been careless with money though........but it's been death by 1,000 cuts by comparison........things like throwing washouts like Rodg Saffold $6M. 

 

And the Bills did invest first and second rounders in this past draft but because they had invested so little into OL and receiving positions in recent offseason they are really playing catch up at this point. 

[Mikie2times]

30 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yeah the Bills have thrown a bunch of 3rd rounders into the offense in recent years so if you want to draw the line THERE it looks closer.........but the Chiefs have used a 1st or 2nd round pick.....the real big chips......on offense every year since 2019.

 

The Chiefs have clearly invested a lot more big chips into the OL.   Making Joe Thuney highest paid G in the NFL in 2021.   First rounder and franchise money for Orlando Brown in 2021.   $20M aav for Jawaan Taylor in 2023.  

 

They have 3 WR on their roster that are 1st or 2nd rounders in the past 3 drafts.  

 

Also worth noting that the Bills have made the mistake of using 3 picks in the first 3 rounds on RB's........the Chiefs have only done so once........and those picks depreciate rapidly once driven off the lot.   Cook is the only 1 of the 4 who figures prominently in the plans for their team. 

 

So I think the gap wider than your analysis leads you to believe.    Beane has admittedly been careless with money though........but it's been death by 1,000 cuts by comparison........things like throwing washouts like Rodg Saffold $6M. 

 

And the Bills did invest first and second rounders in this past draft but because they had invested so little into OL and receiving positions in recent offseason they are really playing catch up at this point. 

I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I think it would be better for you to say you don't like who the Bills have invested resources in. The Bills have unequivocally spent more money on the offensive line than KC has. They just haven't done it in a way that some prefer. They ranked 3rd in 2020, 5th in 2021, 14th in 2022, and 10th in 2023. KC only spent more in 2022 and it was by 3 million dollars. From 2019 to current, 5 of 12 KC 2nd round or better draft picks were on offense. Buffalo had 4 of 9. Buffalo has drafted more offensive players as a % of draft picks in the sample you gave and spent more on the offensive line. These are not my opinions. So again, I think it's more a matter of who they have went after and how they did it (in most cases more by committee and not WR) vs what areas.   

[90sBills]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I'm not going to argue that the Chiefs aren't going to become a dynasty because winning SB's is how you judge that and they are 1 win away from that distinction.........but they haven't manhandled the competition so let's not get carried away with the praise either.    They won 2 closely contested SB games and got blown out as a prohibitive favorite in that span.    Impressive but hardly the Steel Curtain of the 70's or the Cowboys of the 90's.

 

 

I think you’re trying to diminish KC’s accomplishments here. Winning even one Super Bowl is hard. All Bills fans know this. Going to 3 and winning 2 in five years is incredible. Especially in this modern parity league. Closely contested or not superbowl wins are impressive. Pats first 3 superbowl wins were by 3 points. Nobody in their right mind would say those weren’t impressive because those games were closely contested. KC deserves all the praises they get now. Bills job is to knock them off.