The Walls be Closing

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 hour ago, SectionC3 said:

One of the many problems he has right now is his out.  Normally a case/cases like this would resolve through a plea.  Inasmuch as he's a lying d-bag, I'd be reluctant to cut a deal with this guy because I don't trust him not to pull a Chris Collins later on and whine on every "conservative" network around about how he was "coerced."  Many defendants, of course, do such a thing, but this guy and his history are different.  So the feds might run this clown through a jury or juries and go for the throat. 

They absolutely should.  They've never come close to squeezing his nuts this tight before.  Got him dead to rights it appears.  He must be going nuts and he deserves every second of that torture.  A narcissist watch himself go down this embarrissingly  must be hell.  This is the Titanic taking on water.

Edited July 28, 2023 by redtail hawk

[SectionC3]

6 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

They absolutely should.  They've never come close to squeezing his nuts this tight before.  Got him dead to rights it appears.  He must be going nuts and he deserves every second of that torture.  A narcissist watch himself go down this embarrissingly  must be hell.  This is the Titanic taking on water.

My concern with trying this case is the threat to national security to the extent the trial judge allows/requires proof regarding the content of the subject documents.  I suspect that cases like this would resolve through plea given that concern.  But, Trump being the d-bag that he is, I don't know if he'd take the offer.  And, I don't know if it would be extended in the first place because of the threat that he would take to Fox News and call the whole thing a hoax/coerced/whatever.  So, depending on how bad the docs are that he allegedly took and retained, I'd be inclined to put him in the vise if I was Jack Smith.  

[BillStime]

2 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Saab for about 5 years

 

Saab should still exist. So unforunate.

 

[Doc Brown]

4 hours ago, BillStime said:

BuT hEr SeRvErS

 

Karen Psyop upstaged AGAIN by the most corrupt POTUS in our lifetime.

 

 

Hillary used BleachBit to delete her e-mails and the DOJ didn't indict her.  The standard was set there and like it or not that's what Trump supporters will be  moaning about no matter what becomes of all this.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

"Reacting to the additional charges, a Trump campaign spokesperson told Fox News Digital that "this is nothing more than a continued desperate and flailing attempt by the Biden Crime Family and their Department of Justice to harass President Trump and those around him." 

 

"Deranged Jack Smith knows that they have no case and is casting about for any way to salvage their illegal witch hunt and to get someone other than Donald Trump to run against Crooked Joe Biden," the spokesperson added. 

 

From a fox piece published today reporting on new fed charges.

 

There are people on this board that will buy this;  hook ,line and sinker.  What the hell is wrong with you?  Are you truly intellectually challenged or do you just choose to be in the case of trump?

Edited July 28, 2023 by redtail hawk

[ChiGoose]

5 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Hillary used BleachBit to delete her e-mails and the DOJ didn't indict her.  The standard was set there and like it or not that's what Trump supporters will be  moaning about no matter what becomes of all this.

Something I find very telling is that even for things that are settled and well known, some people want to make up conspiracies that fit their narratives. 
 

The actually, true, and factual explanation as to why those emails were deleted is not a mystery. We know how it happened. And when you look at the fact pattern, you’d understand why it wasn’t charged and even why Hillary herself  

would be unhappy with it. 
 

But that doesn’t fit the narrative, so who cares about facts?

 

It is frankly ridiculous that the constant barrage of lies and insinuations from bad faith actors on the right means that we have to defend people as unappealing as Hillary. I never voted for her but if you’re going to criticize her, maybe do it for something she actually did. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

11 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Hillary used BleachBit to delete her e-mails and the DOJ didn't indict her.  The standard was set there and like it or not that's what Trump supporters will be  moaning about no matter what becomes of all this.

who cares what trump supporters moan about?  They're irredeemable, un recyclable and they're going to lose again.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

Ty 

Cobb with a grand slam:

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4124264-former-trump-lawyer-ty-cobb-on-new-indictment/

 

“I think this original indictment was engineered to last 1,000 years and now this superseeding indictment will last an antiquity,” Cobb said. “This is such a tight case, the evidence is so overwhelming.”

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by redtail hawk

[Doc Brown]

20 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

But that doesn’t fit the narrative, so who cares about facts?  It is frankly ridiculous that the constant barrage of lies and insinuations from bad faith actors on the right means that we have to defend people as unappealing as Hillary. I never voted for her but if you’re going to criticize her, maybe do it for something she actually did. 

I'm not wrong though.  The average voter isn't going to closely follow each case when the right uses that whataboutism to defend Trump.

[BillsFanNC]

Corrupt to their core.

 

Call at 3:08 PM between Josh James and Michael Greene.
Both told the FBI the crowd noise was so loud they couldn't hear each other.  
James told the FBI in 4 different interviews he never received any instructions from Greene after a 1:30 call to "Come to the Capitol".
Greene testified 2x that he never had a conversation by phone with James after 1:30 until they saw each other face to face at about 3:30, when all the Oath Keepers were out of the Capitol.
Gov't claimed at trial and at sentencing that the call was Greene telling James to lead his group inside the Capitol.
James told the FBI he made the decision on his own to lead the second group inside.

Josh James was the most significant -- highest in leadership -- member of the Oath Keepers to plead guilty and agree to cooperate.

How many times in 3 trials was he called to the stand as a Govt witness?

Zero.

Source -- I was there in the Courtroom and did the direct exam of Michael Greene and cross-exam of FBI SA Palian, the Case Agent on the OK investigation.

 

Anything else?

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tommy Callahan]

It's Friday and they are still standing.  

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

23 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

It's Friday and they are still standing.  

 

 

Why do you cheer for an obvious crook?  It's analogous to cheering for the Cheatriots.

[SectionC3]

7 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

who cares what trump supporters moan about?  They're irredeemable, un recyclable and they're going to lose again.

Once mainstream Republicans come around to this, we'll be in much better shape.  The reality is that Trumpers are going to make this country more socially liberal.  Republicans will move left on some social issues, because they can't win (even with Trumpers) without doing so.  Indys will come back into play, and economics will dictate elections again.  Trumpers will go back to being the marginalized whiners that they formerly were--many of them will wake up and become Democrats--and away we will go. 

[BillStime]

7 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Hillary used BleachBit to delete her e-mails and the DOJ didn't indict her.  The standard was set there and like it or not that's what Trump supporters will be  moaning about no matter what becomes of all this.

Once again - in typical MAGA fashion - MAGA nutters NEVER thoroughly think through their argument.

First - Hillary is not the first person to use a private server as Secretary of State. Funny MAGA nutters had no issue with Colin Powell doing so… or Ivanka and others who worked at the Trump WH.

 

Second - BleachBit deleted personal emails of HER server after 55,000 work related emails was returned. You know what BleachBit did NOT do? Delete emails sitting on the recipients server. Trump also never tells you that nor does he tell you that the FBI was able to retrieve some of those deleted emails.

 

Third - Was Hillary indicted and trying to hide something like Trump? Yes or no.
 

Trump was asked several times to return the documents he had ZERO right to possess - Trump went out of his way to obstruct - forced his lawyers to sign affidavits stating all documents were returned - and continued to obstruct like a spoiled fn brat.

 

The guy should be in jail - not some gaudy motel 6 pedo resort in Florida.
 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

Why do you cheer for a biased and aggressively partisan judicial system?  

 

 

 

 

[Kemp]

Hannity: "You still have the surveillance tape, is that correct?

Are you allowed to share that with the country?"

Eric Trump: "Absolutely. At the right time."

Guess his daddy doesn't talk to him much.

[Westside]

The lefties are projecting again.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

18 minutes ago, Westside said:

The lefties are projecting again.

splain...

1 hour ago, Chris farley said:

Why do you cheer for a biased and aggressively partisan judicial system?  

 

 

 

 

it's your side that so often says "if you don't like it, you can leave".  And your premise is false.  Judge Cannon is a trump appointed judge.  But continue the ridiculous narrative that trump and MAGA's like you are victims....WAH!

Edited July 28, 2023 by redtail hawk

[Joe Ferguson forever]

https://www.rawstory.com/donald-trump-iran-doc-revealed/

 

Wolf, this to me is the single most important incident alleged in this entire indictment," said Honig. "Here's Donald Trump months after he left the White House and talking about war plans. He's alluding to documents. You can hear papers being shuffled, but the question is does he actually have a classified document in front of him that he's showing to these civilians with no security clearance?"

 

The new indictment confirms the answer, Honig continued: "Those papers he was shuffling, yes, they were classified documents, they're related to war plans, and DOJ has that document. That is now a new charge in this indictment."

"And that makes that incident so much worse than just Donald Trump exaggerating or bragging or bluffing, as he has suggested," Honig added. "This means he actually had that classified document in his possession. He was showing it to others, he was bragging about it, he was disseminating it, to use the legalistic word."

Watch the video below or at this link.

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by redtail hawk

[Kemp]

1 hour ago, SectionC3 said:

Once mainstream Republicans come around to this, we'll be in much better shape.  The reality is that Trumpers are going to make this country more socially liberal.  Republicans will move left on some social issues, because they can't win (even with Trumpers) without doing so.  Indys will come back into play, and economics will dictate elections again.  Trumpers will go back to being the marginalized whiners that they formerly were--many of them will wake up and become Democrats--and away we will go. 

 

I don't think you have grasped yet that the Republican Party that we used to think existed ain't coming back soon, if at all.

They are now an openly anti-establishment and anti-democracy Party. More importantly, their supporters would not return to support them if they went back to what they were.

The closet has opened and being openly authoritarian is the way of their supporters. I'm not sure how you can win those folks back by going to a Romney-type Republican Party and how many of the leaders of that Party would want to go back to the good old days.

Trump has explicitly stated that if he becomes President again, he will give far more power to the Executive branch.

That means autocracy and perhaps a dictatorship.

[SectionC3]

13 minutes ago, Kemp said:

 

I don't think you have grasped yet that the Republican Party that we used to think existed ain't coming back soon, if at all.

They are now an openly anti-establishment and anti-democracy Party. More importantly, their supporters would not return to support them if they went back to what they were.

The closet has opened and being openly authoritarian is the way of their supporters. I'm not sure how you can win those folks back by going to a Romney-type Republican Party and how many of the leaders of that Party would want to go back to the good old days.

Trump has explicitly stated that if he becomes President again, he will give far more power to the Executive branch.

That means autocracy and perhaps a dictatorship.

I disagree.  Republicans have a “bill” to pay for Trump.  They also know how bad the Trumpers are.  One more loss in an even-year cycle and I think you’ll see them move faster to the center than maybe most expect. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

9 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I'm not wrong though.  The average voter isn't going to closely follow each case when the right uses that whataboutism to defend Trump.

It's not on the average voter to follow each case closely, and it never is.  In many cases, probably most, the average citizen votes on emotion.  The typical politician leverages that emotion, in many cases manipulating, embellishing or lying to appeal to as many voters as possible.

 

Voters are not prosecutors, defense attorneys, experts on classified document handling, but most have a strong ability to detect bull sh8t when it is served up.  The challenge is Dems see bs when it's served by Rs, and Rs see bs when served up by Dems.  

 

The facts are, from the R point of view anyway, that Trump was a victim of extreme political persecution by DOJ, FBI, dems.  There's plenty of evidence to support that, and there's plenty of evidence to support very questionable practices--up to illegal behavior.   

 

It's not just Hillary Clinton getting special treatment, it's well beyond that.  The DOJ raids Trump's place, sets up a photo shoot of allegedly classified documents strew about on the floor and leaks said photos. They spend hours there and 'accidentally' grab client/attorney documents, tax returns and private material, then suggest everybody trust them with the documents.  Meanwhile, the Biden SC investigation is locked down tighter than a drum, though classified and illegal documents were found in a garage. 

 

Then there's this, of course, where one of the most powerful men in the world tells truth.

 

Which leads to this (from the notoriously right wing ACLU):

 

https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/do-us-politicians-need-fear-our-intelligence

 

And of course, reinforces the point that nobody trusts everybody, and just about everybody distrusts somebody, but it's usually limited to the guy who doesn't vote like you or run the agenda you like. 

 

"Whataboutism" isn't really the problem, and the average voter using it isn't the problem, either.  The problem is the political class is completely and irrevocably untrustworthy.   The other problem is that people forget what they were upset about when the last guy was in office, and remember that it's not really a big deal when their guy is running the show.

 

 

[Kemp]

31 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

I disagree.  Republicans have a “bill” to pay for Trump.  They also know how bad the Trumpers are.  One more loss in an even-year cycle and I think you’ll see them move faster to the center than maybe most expect. 

 

Who will vote for them?

I think Trumpers won't vote for old-style Republicans for at least a few years, perhaps for a long time.

I think they'll either sit it out or go to a new 3rd Party.

Trump is going to go down. Expecting members of a cult to go back to Romney-type Republicans is tough for me to envision.

More likely DeSantis ultra right winger types.

[SectionC3]

Just now, Kemp said:

 

Who will vote for them?

I think Trumpers won't vote for old-style Republicans for at least a few years, perhaps for a long time.

I think they'll either sit it out or go to a new 3rd Party.

Trump is going to go down. Expecting members of a cult to go back to Romney-type Republicans is tough for me to envision.

More likely DeSantis ultra right winger types.

A good chunk of the cultists really weren’t republicans until Trump.  The republicans veered far right with his nationalism and alienated a lot of moderates and independents.  Without changing their social agenda, republicans will never get them back.  But if the social agenda moderates, they could build a coalition of normals and let the Trumpers scatter.  There will be pain before profit if they take that approach, though - I completely agree with you there. 

[Kemp]

11 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

It's not on the average voter to follow each case closely, and it never is.  In many cases, probably most, the average citizen votes on emotion.  The typical politician leverages that emotion, in many cases manipulating, embellishing or lying to appeal to as many voters as possible.

 

Voters are not prosecutors, defense attorneys, experts on classified document handling, but most have a strong ability to detect bull sh8t when it is served up.  The challenge is Dems see bs when it's served by Rs, and Rs see bs when served up by Dems.  

 

The facts are, from the R point of view anyway, that Trump was a victim of extreme political persecution by DOJ, FBI, dems.  There's plenty of evidence to support that, and there's plenty of evidence to support very questionable practices--up to illegal behavior.   

 

It's not just Hillary Clinton getting special treatment, it's well beyond that.  The DOJ raids Trump's place, sets up a photo shoot of allegedly classified documents strew about on the floor and leaks said photos. They spend hours there and 'accidentally' grab client/attorney documents, tax returns and private material, then suggest everybody trust them with the documents.  Meanwhile, the Biden SC investigation is locked down tighter than a drum, though classified and illegal documents were found in a garage. 

 

Then there's this, of course, where one of the most powerful men in the world tells truth.

 

Which leads to this (from the notoriously right wing ACLU):

 

https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/do-us-politicians-need-fear-our-intelligence

 

And of course, reinforces the point that nobody trusts everybody, and just about everybody distrusts somebody, but it's usually limited to the guy who doesn't vote like you or run the agenda you like. 

 

"Whataboutism" isn't really the problem, and the average voter using it isn't the problem, either.  The problem is the political class is completely and irrevocably untrustworthy.   The other problem is that people forget what they were upset about when the last guy was in office, and remember that it's not really a big deal when their guy is running the show.

 

 

 

Hillary's special treatment from the FBI arguably put Trump in office.

Trump was raided solely because he ignored subpoenas. 

If he had complied, he wouldn't have been prosecuted. He did it to himself.

That's not persecution.

[Doc Brown]

3 hours ago, BillStime said:

Second - BleachBit deleted personal emails of HER server after 55,000 work related emails was returned. You know what BleachBit did NOT do? Delete emails sitting on the recipients server. Trump also never tells you that nor does he tell you that the FBI was able to retrieve some of those deleted emails.

They don't care and they wouldn't believe it anyways because of their deep distrust of our institutions.  When the director of the FBI publicly called her handling of classified documents "extremely careless" but didn't recommend chargers it's all they needed to think there is a double standard of justice.  It's as simple as that.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Doc Brown

[BillStime]

29 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

They don't care and they wouldn't believe it anyways because of their deep distrust of our institutions.  When the director of the FBI publicly called her handling of classified documents "extremely careless" but didn't recommend chargers it's all they needed to think there is a double standard of justice.  It's as simple as that.

 

We know - facts don't matter to the cult - just psyops. 

 

Trump: If elected, I’ll appoint a special prosecutor to look into Clinton’s emails

 

What happened?

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, Kemp said:

 

Hillary's special treatment from the FBI arguably put Trump in office.

Trump was raided solely because he ignored subpoenas. 

If he had complied, he wouldn't have been prosecuted. He did it to himself.

That's not persecution.

Hillary Clinton's actions cost her the election, the special treatment allowed her to stay in the game and walk away unscathed.  It didn't move the needle for dem loyalists to any great degree, many of whom are up in arms today over safety and security of our nation's secrets. 

 

I agree that Trump's handling of classified material was an unforced error, and didn't need to happen.  The argument, however, that the only option to resolve the matter involved an armed raid makes little sense.  It makes even less sense when considering how it all played out when the agents conducted the raid.  It makes less sense, still, when it seems logical to assume that national security issues aren't really all that big a deal on that level, given the treatment of Clinton, Pence, and Biden.  It seems that those folks can remove documents at will, stash 'em wherever, share as they see fit, but must be prepared to say "Geesh, I never knew I had 'em!" to beat the system. 

 

As I said, it's an emotional issue when it comes to voters any way you slice it. 

 

The persecution in question commenced in 2015, Kemp.  It's well-established, documented, and has been discussed by leaders of the free world regularly.  You may not like those people, but it's true nonetheless.   

Edited July 28, 2023 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[Joe Ferguson forever]

2 hours ago, Kemp said:

Trump is going to go down. Expecting members of a cult to go back to Romney-type Republicans is tough for me to envision.

More likely DeSantis ultra right winger types.

It seems some of the MAGA R's are realizing the folly in backing trump, even here, on this board.  The Desantis discussion is interesting in that some are cheering for his rise in the polls.  I don't think trump can be beaten in the R primary.  The die is cast.

[Kemp]

1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Hillary Clinton's actions cost her the election, the special treatment allowed her to stay in the game and walk away unscathed.  It didn't move the needle for dem loyalists to any great degree, many of whom are up in arms today over safety and security of our nation's secrets. 

 

I agree that Trump's handling of classified material was an unforced error, and didn't need to happen.  The argument, however, that the only option to resolve the matter involved an armed raid makes little sense.  It makes even less sense when considering how it all played out when the agents conducted the raid.  It makes less sense, still, when it seems logical to assume that national security issues aren't really all that big a deal on that level, given the treatment of Clinton, Pence, and Biden.  It seems that those folks can remove documents at will, stash 'em wherever, share as they see fit, but must be prepared to say "Geesh, I never knew I had 'em!" to beat the system. 

 

As I said, it's an emotional issue when it comes to voters any way you slice it. 

 

The persecution in question commenced in 2015, Kemp.  It's well-established, documented, and has been discussed by leaders of the free world regularly.  You may not like those people, but it's true nonetheless.   

 

You believe Comey helped Clinton? That's cute.

So, it's your position that the FBI should have allowed Trump to keep the documents he stole and refused to return?

If you want to go back a couple of years, to find origin, why stop there?

Let's go back to '84, when Reagan demonized the American government, forcing distrust by Republicans. That and wedding Republicans to white Christian Evangelism. That's what changed the Republican Party and will be its death knell, presuming Trump doen't skate and Republican legislatures don't overturn election results.

3 hours ago, Kemp said:

 

I don't think you have grasped yet that the Republican Party that we used to think existed ain't coming back soon, if at all.

They are now an openly anti-establishment and anti-democracy Party. More importantly, their supporters would not return to support them if they went back to what they were.

The closet has opened and being openly authoritarian is the way of their supporters. I'm not sure how you can win those folks back by going to a Romney-type Republican Party and how many of the leaders of that Party would want to go back to the good old days.

Trump has explicitly stated that if he becomes President again, he will give far more power to the Executive branch.

That means autocracy and perhaps a dictatorship.

 

Are Irv and Farley the same person?

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, BillStime said:

 

We know - facts don't matter to the cult - just psyops. 

 

Trump: If elected, I’ll appoint a special prosecutor to look into Clinton’s emails

 

What happened?

 

He won the election.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, Kemp said:

 

You believe Comey helped Clinton? That's cute.

So, it's your position that the FBI should have allowed Trump to keep the documents he stole and refused to return?

If you want to go back a couple of years, to find origin, why stop there?

Let's go back to '84, when Reagan demonized the American government, forcing distrust by Republicans. That and wedding Republicans to white Christian Evangelism. That's what changed the Republican Party and will be its death knell, presuming Trump doen't skate and Republican legislatures don't overturn election results.

 

Are Irv and Farley the same person?

I think I was pretty clear on H Clinton and the FBI.  I'm not sure why you're struggling with what I wrote?

 

On the second question, you've positioned the choices as:

• Trump gets to keep the material;
• The FBI has to storm the castle;

That reflects a closed mindset and limitation of thought.  

 

There were additional options, including providing Trump more time to review the material to see if there were personal items intermingled with classified docs, allowing Trump to shred/destroy items he felt were beyond the scope of the government authority, and engaging in civil discourse as to the ultimate resolution of the matter.  

 

I do agree that bustin the door down was an option as well. 

 

Your commentary on RReagan is interesting.  Not to me, per se, but maybe to someone else.  My commentary was limited to the subject at hand. 

 

I think you addressed the Irv and Farley question to yourself, but in case you don't answer, I have no idea.  I do think the @Irv reply to Simon in the thread about the Women's Soccer team is one of the funniest I've seen in a long time.   Kudos to Irv in that regard, and if he is Farley, Kudos to @Chris farley as well.  

[Irv]

4 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I think I was pretty clear on H Clinton and the FBI.  I'm not sure why you're struggling with what I wrote?

 

On the second question, you've positioned the choices as:

• Trump gets to keep the material;
• The FBI has to storm the castle;

That reflects a closed mindset and limitation of thought.  

 

There were additional options, including providing Trump more time to review the material to see if there were personal items intermingled with classified docs, allowing Trump to shred/destroy items he felt were beyond the scope of the government authority, and engaging in civil discourse as to the ultimate resolution of the matter.  

 

I do agree that bustin the door down was an option as well. 

 

Your commentary on RReagan is interesting.  Not to me, per se, but maybe to someone else.  My commentary was limited to the subject at hand. 

 

I think you addressed the Irv and Farley question to yourself, but in case you don't answer, I have no idea.  I do think the @Irv reply to Simon in the thread about the Women's Soccer team is one of the funniest I've seen in a long time.   Kudos to Irv in that regard, and if he is Farley, Kudos to @Chris farley as well.  

 

Thanks.  I was about a C hair away from a TBD vacation.  Look.  I've answered this question a million times.  I've never been in business with @Chris farley

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Irv

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

2 minutes ago, Irv said:

 

Thanks.  I was about a C hair away from a TBD vacation.  

That's no way to treat a moderator.  The funniest part was the lead up, as you argued that you didn't want to get drawn into a political conversation.  Now, it was also funny that the other poster clearly wanted to debate the political element and prodded accordingly, presumably un-pointed.

 

Btw, I don't really find anything about the US Team (men's or women's) all the compelling.  I used to love the amateur element of it all (or at least the appearance of it), but now, watching professional athletes banging away in b-ball is sorta boring.   

7 minutes ago, Irv said:

 

Thanks.  I was about a C hair away from a TBD vacation.  

By the way--are you Farley?  Is Farley you? 

[Irv]

10 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

That's no way to treat a moderator.  The funniest part was the lead up, as you argued that you didn't want to get drawn into a political conversation.  Now, it was also funny that the other poster clearly wanted to debate the political element and prodded accordingly, presumably un-pointed.

 

Btw, I don't really find anything about the US Team (men's or women's) all the compelling.  I used to love the amateur element of it all (or at least the appearance of it), but now, watching professional athletes banging away in b-ball is sorta boring.   

By the way--are you Farley?  Is Farley you? 

 

Can't say that I'm him.  But he might be me.    

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Irv

[ChiGoose]

32 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

There were additional options, including providing Trump more time to review the material to see if there were personal items intermingled with classified docs, allowing Trump to shred/destroy items he felt were beyond the scope of the government authority, and engaging in civil discourse as to the ultimate resolution of the matter.  

 

 

I still struggle to understand this viewpoint, honestly. The timeline makes it clear that there wasn't much of a choice left at that point:

• The government notified Trump that he had their stuff
• Trump refused to return it
• Over the better part of a year, the government tried to get Trump to return it
• Eventually, Trump turns over boxes of stuff and tells the government that he returned everything
• Then the government learns that Trump was lying and actually still had stuff, having intentionally kept it from the government (and, as it turns out, his own freaking lawyer)

At that point, it's completely clear to anyone that this guy is not trustworthy on this. Why would you expect that he'd actually do a good faith review after he intentionally deceived you? Why would you think he'd honestly return the materials when you know he's been lying to you the whole time?

 

If securing the documents is important (and obviously it was), I don't think you have any options other than to execute a search warrant.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

12 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

 

I still struggle to understand this viewpoint, honestly. The timeline makes it clear that there wasn't much of a choice left at that point:

• The government notified Trump that he had their stuff
• Trump refused to return it
• Over the better part of a year, the government tried to get Trump to return it
• Eventually, Trump turns over boxes of stuff and tells the government that he returned everything
• Then the government learns that Trump was lying and actually still had stuff, having intentionally kept it from the government (and, as it turns out, his own freaking lawyer)

At that point, it's completely clear to anyone that this guy is not trustworthy on this. Why would you expect that he'd actually do a good faith review after he intentionally deceived you? Why would you think he'd honestly return the materials when you know he's been lying to you the whole time?

 

If securing the documents is important (and obviously it was), I don't think you have any options other than to execute a search warrant.

I appreciate the question, but you seem to be starting with the premise that any player in this sordid game can be trusted.  I don't start there, I start with "Question everyone's motives.".   

 

You also start at the premise that 'securing the documents was important', I'll reply that 'securing the documents definitely seems like a major issue and threat to our National Security...this time'.  As near as I can tell, there is no significant attention paid to removal of documents, no one really accountable for the proper handling of said documents, no real concern about unprotected access online, or the sharing of classified information with others, or wasn't until 2023. 

 

It seems to me, Chi, it's a major sh8t show on that level, where the relative aggressiveness of the response is directly related to who the target is. 

 

Trump created this problem, Trump is being steamrolled by this problem, and Trump exposed his throat to his enemies and they attacked.  As I've said before, the dems were willing to tear the country apart to get him, it was reckless and foolish to give them more ammunition to destroy him. 

 

There were other options.  There are always other options. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BillsFanNC]

 

[Doc]

6 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Hillary Clinton's actions cost her the election, the special treatment allowed her to stay in the game and walk away unscathed.  It didn't move the needle for dem loyalists to any great degree, many of whom are up in arms today over safety and security of our nation's secrets. 

 

I agree that Trump's handling of classified material was an unforced error, and didn't need to happen.  The argument, however, that the only option to resolve the matter involved an armed raid makes little sense.  It makes even less sense when considering how it all played out when the agents conducted the raid.  It makes less sense, still, when it seems logical to assume that national security issues aren't really all that big a deal on that level, given the treatment of Clinton, Pence, and Biden.  It seems that those folks can remove documents at will, stash 'em wherever, share as they see fit, but must be prepared to say "Geesh, I never knew I had 'em!" to beat the system. 

 

As I said, it's an emotional issue when it comes to voters any way you slice it. 

 

The persecution in question commenced in 2015, Kemp.  It's well-established, documented, and has been discussed by leaders of the free world regularly.  You may not like those people, but it's true nonetheless.   

 

That's how they rationalize their guy(s) having material they never should have had in the first place, in some instances for decades, with no idea what they did with it.  "They didn't know they had it but they gave it back so it's all good!"