John from Riverside Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 9 hours ago, mrags said: I think we’ve upgraded in every position with the exception of LB and WR. Nothing proves that we’ve upgraded. At least not yet. Regarding wide receiver I wouldn’t necessarily: upgrading, but I feel like they have definitely addressed the depth Trent Sherfield was the number three receiver for Miami now people might not think that that is a thing but Miami has very good receivers to be the third receiver on a team with very good receivers. Actually does say something. Guys like Sherfield and Harti our upgrades over back ups that we currently had 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 7 hours ago, mrags said: Just saying we have no way to prove that until they start playing. The way McD brings his rookies along slowly and lack of experience would make it more likely that he won’t be as big of an upgrade in year 1 as we would hope. and my argument is more directed at the moves to WR that we’ve made. I agreed that we upgraded at TE. And I get that Kincaid is likely more of a WR than a TE, but the fact is he’s still listed as a TE. Being listed as a TE doesn’t change anything in my eyes. What matters is what he will be for our offense. Capable of playing x, y and x. He’s going to line up everywhere. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 10 hours ago, gobills404 said: Floyd is not an off-ball LB. He’s an edge defender that will be playing DE for the Bills. Just like Von. Agree but my assessment involves the cumulative impact. Sure losing Edmunds hurt in one area but adding Floyd helps in another. I see it as a wash. But I get that others would see it as a net loss. But given the importance of pressuring the QB in today's NFL someone could also argue that Floyd for Edmunds represents a net plus. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 6 hours ago, White Linen said: Have to disagree with you. Who did we lose that would make us better last year? Do you think there's not a McKenzie replacement on the roster? Or a concern there's not? I'd like to think Davis and Shakir should be better. And I think someone from Harty, Sherfield or Shakir should bring McKenzie production from one alone. Additionally there's some very interesting other FA's and rookies to monitor. Only thing that would give me pause about being certain we're better is; where is Diggs? Could this potential issue between he and Josh be a problem? Again, I believe we will be better but facts don’t support it. McKenzie was no loss. He didn’t perform up to what we all hoped he could. But I’ve argued this in the past. None of the WRs we picked up have even put up statistically what McKenzie has in his career. Sherfields numbers are even worse. Not to mention that Harty has been incredibly unreliable when it comes to injured in his career. He’s missed 26 games over his 4 year career with an average of 6.5 games missed every year. again, I believe we might be better. But the facts don’t tell that story. 2 hours ago, John from Riverside said: Regarding wide receiver I wouldn’t necessarily: upgrading, but I feel like they have definitely addressed the depth Trent Sherfield was the number three receiver for Miami now people might not think that that is a thing but Miami has very good receivers to be the third receiver on a team with very good receivers. Actually does say something. Guys like Sherfield and Harti our upgrades over back ups that we currently had Over backups like Kumerow and Shakir from last season sure. But not to a guy like Beasley 2 years ago, or even McKenzie last year. again. I’m not saying we might not have upgraded. The fact is McKenzie pretty much sucked. But if McKenzie was so bad, we shouldn’t be expecting either of these 2 to do any better because they literally never done better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 28 minutes ago, NewEra said: Being listed as a TE doesn’t change anything in my eyes. What matters is what he will be for our offense. Capable of playing x, y and x. He’s going to line up everywhere. The argument I can get behind for sure. He’s going to be good imo. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to happen immediately. And like I said, we know the way McD doesn’t like/trust rookies to come in and get significant playing time right away. At least not on the offensive side of the ball. shakir cook hodgins these guys all had ability that we could all see in limited time in camp and pre season. They all looked like they should be playing and never got The time they should have. Hell, they resigned an old man in John Brown and Beasley to come in before they gave Shakir a legit shot. That says something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 Just now, mrags said: The argument I can get behind for sure. He’s going to be good imo. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to happen immediately. And like I said, we know the way McD doesn’t like/trust rookies to come in and get significant playing time right away. At least not on the offensive side of the ball. shakir cook hodgins these guys all had ability that we could all see in limited time in camp and pre season. They all looked like they should be playing and never got The time they should have. Hell, they resigned an old man in John Brown and Beasley to come in before they gave Shakir a legit shot. That says something. It’s not limited to rookies. What happened with Hines was borderline criminal. Huge disconnect between Beane/McDermott/Dorsey. Beane drafts/acquires players who end up collecting dust on the sidelines. Hopefully, they’ve sorted this out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 1 minute ago, Gugny said: It’s not limited to rookies. What happened with Hines was borderline criminal. Huge disconnect between Beane/McDermott/Dorsey. Beane drafts/acquires players who end up collecting dust on the sidelines. Hopefully, they’ve sorted this out. Yeah. There’s plenty of players it’s happened to. Guys that everyone can see had something to show and they didn’t think so. I just thought of 3 names off the top of my head. Yes, Hines was criminal. To make the trade for him then never play him at his position was stupid. And I like Hines, but why resign him? The league is moving away from the special teams game and they’ve signed multiple other backs this off-season as well. Pretty big waste of money for a guy that will never touch the ball if you ask me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 33 minutes ago, mrags said: The argument I can get behind for sure. He’s going to be good imo. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to happen immediately. And like I said, we know the way McD doesn’t like/trust rookies to come in and get significant playing time right away. At least not on the offensive side of the ball. shakir cook hodgins these guys all had ability that we could all see in limited time in camp and pre season. They all looked like they should be playing and never got The time they should have. Hell, they resigned an old man in John Brown and Beasley to come in before they gave Shakir a legit shot. That says something. Fair point regarding rookies…. But singling out offensive rookies is meh Imo. I don’t think Kincaid should be compared to a 5th and a 7th rd WRs or a 2nd rd RB that had never been a RB1. The shakir sitch was 💯 befuddling. It drove me crazy for sure. Dunno if McD/Dorsey felt some sort of an allegiance to Dirty? If shakir was making errors in practice? Missed assignments and such 🤷🏻♂️. But it was frustrating to watch unfold. But again, you’re talking about a 5th rd pick…. Not a 1st rd pick that we traded up for. I thought cook played about as much as I thought he would his rookie year. I hope he gets 75% of the carries this year, but I expect it to be around 50-60%. I expect Harris to get the rock when we have a lead in the 4th as well as the majority of the RZ carries Hodgins had no chance to play his rookie year. Stuck behind Diggs, sanders, Beasley, Davis and dirty. Spencer Brown started the majority of his rookie year as a 3rd rd pick. Cody Ford did as well. Josh Allen is the only 1st rd pick used on O other than Kincaid. Kincaid is going to be one of the focal points of this offense going forward. I have no doubt. Whether or not Dorsey can implement the proper scheme to achieve success is a different story, but I think he’ll be fine. Agree to disagree. It’s the offseason and this is the stuff that we discuss. I think it’s clear that we’ve improved our offense a great deal. Major improvements on the IOL and TE/Slot. I get why some don’t think Harty and Sherfield are upgrades. Past stats say they are about equivalent to what we’ve had. I just don’t agree with past stats having anything to do with their future on this team. Harty >> McKenzie. Sherfield >>> Kumerow imo. Both can play inside and out. Both can stretch the field and have very good RAC ability. Nothing can really be proven until the season plays out. In 2021, we thought we upgraded when we went from Brown to Sanders. Stats show the proof that you’re looking for, but reality was, we he wasn’t really an upgrade at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 17 minutes ago, NewEra said: Fair point regarding rookies…. But singling out offensive rookies is meh Imo. I don’t think Kincaid should be compared to a 5th and a 7th rd WRs or a 2nd rd RB that had never been a RB1. The shakir sitch was 💯 befuddling. It drove me crazy for sure. Dunno if McD/Dorsey felt some sort of an allegiance to Dirty? If shakir was making errors in practice? Missed assignments and such 🤷🏻♂️. But it was frustrating to watch unfold. But again, you’re talking about a 5th rd pick…. Not a 1st rd pick that we traded up for. I thought cook played about as much as I thought he would his rookie year. I hope he gets 75% of the carries this year, but I expect it to be around 50-60%. I expect Harris to get the rock when we have a lead in the 4th as well as the majority of the RZ carries Hodgins had no chance to play his rookie year. Stuck behind Diggs, sanders, Beasley, Davis and dirty. Spencer Brown started the majority of his rookie year as a 3rd rd pick. Cody Ford did as well. Josh Allen is the only 1st rd pick used on O other than Kincaid. Kincaid is going to be one of the focal points of this offense going forward. I have no doubt. Whether or not Dorsey can implement the proper scheme to achieve success is a different story, but I think he’ll be fine. Agree to disagree. It’s the offseason and this is the stuff that we discuss. I think it’s clear that we’ve improved our offense a great deal. Major improvements on the IOL and TE/Slot. I get why some don’t think Harty and Sherfield are upgrades. Past stats say they are about equivalent to what we’ve had. I just don’t agree with past stats having anything to do with their future on this team. Harty >> McKenzie. Sherfield >>> Kumerow imo. Both can play inside and out. Both can stretch the field and have very good RAC ability. Nothing can really be proven until the season plays out. In 2021, we thought we upgraded when we went from Brown to Sanders. Stats show the proof that you’re looking for, but reality was, we he wasn’t really an upgrade at all. Pretty much agree with most here. Just stating that what we currently have is an unknown. There’s no proof that we’ve upgraded at WR. Like I said, I truly believe we’ve upgraded as well, saying it as an opinion is fine, stating it like it’s fact is just not true though. I 100% think Sherfield is an upgrade over Kumerow. But to what extent will they use him? We all thought Kumerow showed promise and should get more time on the field in the past and he has like 4 catches in his career as a Bill. What proof is there that we’ll actually use Sherfield any different? Im not a fan of Harty. I think he’s too small for the game/position. I don’t care how fast he is, agile he is, quick he is, etc. the guy has historically been unavailable due to injury at a rate of 6+ games a year. His size and body has proven he’s too small for the game. You say he can play outside? I don’t see that happening ever on this team. Nor would I want a guy that’s 5’9” on the outside. He will be an inside receiver on this team. And let’s be real, anytime he’s on the field probably means Kincaid is not and I don’t like that one bit. Kincaid is another story. Let’s hope he performs. Let’s hope Dorsey has something in mind for him. Let’s hope he and Josh get on the same page. Let’s hope he can take the steps needed to be a player in the NFL. I hope he will and think it’ll happen. But some people thought Ryan Leaf was better than Payton Manning. There’s no guarantee that Kincaid will work out. again, I think we’ve upgraded at the pass catching position overall. But there’s no evidence to support the statement that we’ve upgraded at WR. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 Even if there was evidence (stats is the only thing you can go by) the evidence isn’t proof of anything either. Just seems like a waste of time arguing about proof and evidence. No team in the league has proof that they’ve upgraded until they see the result on the field. adding and upgrading talent can only go as far as the coaches scheme. That’s not something anyone can prove in the offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 6 minutes ago, mrags said: Pretty much agree with most here. Just stating that what we currently have is an unknown. There’s no proof that we’ve upgraded at WR. Like I said, I truly believe we’ve upgraded as well, saying it as an opinion is fine, stating it like it’s fact is just not true though. I 100% think Sherfield is an upgrade over Kumerow. But to what extent will they use him? We all thought Kumerow showed promise and should get more time on the field in the past and he has like 4 catches in his career as a Bill. What proof is there that we’ll actually use Sherfield any different? Im not a fan of Harty. I think he’s too small for the game/position. I don’t care how fast he is, agile he is, quick he is, etc. the guy has historically been unavailable due to injury at a rate of 6+ games a year. His size and body has proven he’s too small for the game. You say he can play outside? I don’t see that happening ever on this team. Nor would I want a guy that’s 5’9” on the outside. He will be an inside receiver on this team. And let’s be real, anytime he’s on the field probably means Kincaid is not and I don’t like that one bit. Kincaid is another story. Let’s hope he performs. Let’s hope Dorsey has something in mind for him. Let’s hope he and Josh get on the same page. Let’s hope he can take the steps needed to be a player in the NFL. I hope he will and think it’ll happen. But some people thought Ryan Leaf was better than Payton Manning. There’s no guarantee that Kincaid will work out. again, I think we’ve upgraded at the pass catching position overall. But there’s no evidence to support the statement that we’ve upgraded at WR. We have better depth at WR compared to last year but that isn’t saying much. Davis and Shakir a year older. We still don’t have an established slot WR - I think it’s going to be Shakir and Harty will be the gadget guy. Diggs Davis Shakir Sherfield Harty Shorter I’m not counting the TEs. I think this is now the “weakest” group on the team. Still decent but there are probably 15-20 teams with a better group. Hopefully an improved Oline makes everyone better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 5 minutes ago, NewEra said: Even if there was evidence (stats is the only thing you can go by) the evidence isn’t proof of anything either. Just seems like a waste of time arguing about proof and evidence. No team in the league has proof that they’ve upgraded until they see the result on the field. adding and upgrading talent can only go as far as the coaches scheme. That’s not something anyone can prove in the offseason. Bingo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 14 minutes ago, mrags said: Pretty much agree with most here. Just stating that what we currently have is an unknown. There’s no proof that we’ve upgraded at WR. Like I said, I truly believe we’ve upgraded as well, saying it as an opinion is fine, stating it like it’s fact is just not true though. I 100% think Sherfield is an upgrade over Kumerow. But to what extent will they use him? We all thought Kumerow showed promise and should get more time on the field in the past and he has like 4 catches in his career as a Bill. What proof is there that we’ll actually use Sherfield any different? Im not a fan of Harty. I think he’s too small for the game/position. I don’t care how fast he is, agile he is, quick he is, etc. the guy has historically been unavailable due to injury at a rate of 6+ games a year. His size and body has proven he’s too small for the game. You say he can play outside? I don’t see that happening ever on this team. Nor would I want a guy that’s 5’9” on the outside. He will be an inside receiver on this team. And let’s be real, anytime he’s on the field probably means Kincaid is not and I don’t like that one bit. Kincaid is another story. Let’s hope he performs. Let’s hope Dorsey has something in mind for him. Let’s hope he and Josh get on the same page. Let’s hope he can take the steps needed to be a player in the NFL. I hope he will and think it’ll happen. But some people thought Ryan Leaf was better than Payton Manning. There’s no guarantee that Kincaid will work out. again, I think we’ve upgraded at the pass catching position overall. But there’s no evidence to support the statement that we’ve upgraded at WR. I don't see why Harty and Kincaid can't be on the field at the same time. Aaron Hernandez, Gronk and Edleman were always on the field together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 14 minutes ago, NewEra said: Even if there was evidence (stats is the only thing you can go by) the evidence isn’t proof of anything either. Just seems like a waste of time arguing about proof and evidence. No team in the league has proof that they’ve upgraded until they see the result on the field. adding and upgrading talent can only go as far as the coaches scheme. That’s not something anyone can prove in the offseason. 9 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: Bingo. this statement proves there’s no guarantee we’ve upgraded either. For the 100th or so time. I’ve stated that I believe we have upgraded. But there is no guarantee we have. People are talking about it like it’s a sure thing we e upgraded when it’s just not accurate. Just like you said, there’s no way to prove we haven’t, I say there’s no way to prove we have. But what are we all here for? Discussing our team and arguing our opinions. 2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: I don't see why Harty and Kincaid can't be on the field at the same time. Aaron Hernandez, Gronk and Edleman were always on the field together. Not saying they can’t be. But only so many players can be in the field at once. Who you taking off the field so that Harty can be there? diggs davis kincaid Knox any of our 4 RBs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 2 minutes ago, mrags said: this statement proves there’s no guarantee we’ve upgraded either. For the 100th or so time. I’ve stated that I believe we have upgraded. But there is no guarantee we have. People are talking about it like it’s a sure thing we e upgraded when it’s just not accurate. Just like you said, there’s no way to prove we haven’t, I say there’s no way to prove we have. But what are we all here for? Discussing our team and arguing our opinions. Yes, you're right there is no guarantee in anything. But if you know that, why do you always argue with the word "guarantee?" You know it's not possible because we can't prove it but you always use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffblue Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: We have better depth at WR compared to last year but that isn’t saying much. Davis and Shakir a year older. We still don’t have an established slot WR - I think it’s going to be Shakir and Harty will be the gadget guy. Diggs Davis Shakir Sherfield Harty Shorter I’m not counting the TEs. I think this is now the “weakest” group on the team. Still decent but there are probably 15-20 teams with a better group. Hopefully an improved Oline makes everyone better. Agreed. The scary part for me is imagining a situation where Diggs is unavailable for anything longer than a couple of weeks. We already know that Davis is an iffy #2 at best. I don't want to think about the consequences of needing him to slot up to be our #1 guy. This is why although I have some reservations I am still in favor of pursuing Hopkins (salary permitting of course). Edited June 6 by buffblue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 7 minutes ago, mrags said: this statement proves there’s no guarantee we’ve upgraded either. For the 100th or so time. I’ve stated that I believe we have upgraded. But there is no guarantee we have. People are talking about it like it’s a sure thing we e upgraded when it’s just not accurate. Just like you said, there’s no way to prove we haven’t, I say there’s no way to prove we have. But what are we all here for? Discussing our team and arguing our opinions. Not saying they can’t be. But only so many players can be in the field at once. Who you taking off the field so that Harty can be there? diggs davis kincaid Knox any of our 4 RBs? 25 minutes ago, NewEra said: Even if there was evidence (stats is the only thing you can go by) the evidence isn’t proof of anything either. Just seems like a waste of time arguing about proof and evidence. No team in the league has proof that they’ve upgraded until they see the result on the field. adding and upgrading talent can only go as far as the coaches scheme. That’s not something anyone can prove in the offseason. To me, it just proves that it’s a waste of time debating about it on a message board in the offseason. There is no “proof/evidence” with regards to offseason signings. Past stats don’t “prove” anything. There’s literally no way to prove any off season move will be a success or not until they start playing game. so asking for proof is a waste of time as it’s impossible. but it’s a message board, so we talk about how we think these moves will impact the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 12 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: Yes, you're right there is no guarantee in anything. But if you know that, why do you always argue with the word "guarantee?" You know it's not possible because we can't prove it but you always use it. Same reason I guess that so many of you say things as fact when they aren’t fact. You guys stop doing that and I’ll stop with my Shenanigans, deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logic Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 2 hours ago, Gugny said: It’s not limited to rookies. What happened with Hines was borderline criminal. Huge disconnect between Beane/McDermott/Dorsey. Beane drafts/acquires players who end up collecting dust on the sidelines. Hopefully, they’ve sorted this out. This is my number one concern about Dorsey: Making proper usage of his offensive personnel in the way that best highlights their skillset. And the disconnect you mentioned between Beane and Dorsey was startling. All offseason we heard about the desire for a pass-catching back. Beane spent premium draft capital on one and then traded for another. Dorsey then completely failed to use Cook meaningfully in that role, and completely failed to use Hines AT ALL. For a team that desperately needed more production in the short passing game and more explosiveness and offensive variety, to underuse/misuse both players -- Hines, in particular -- was head-scratching and infuriating. He was a rookie play-caller, so I'll give him a pass for now. I hope, for the Bills' sake, that his personnel deployment improves greatly, and that his apparent disconnect with Beane got hashed out in the offseason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 4 minutes ago, NewEra said: To me, it just proves that it’s a waste of time debating about it on a message board in the offseason. There is no “proof/evidence” with regards to offseason signings. Past stats don’t “prove” anything. There’s literally no way to prove any off season move will be a success or not until they start playing game. so asking for proof is a waste of time as it’s impossible. but it’s a message board, so we talk about how we think these moves will impact the team. And that’s where I’m at. I guess I’ll discuss how the lives at WR won’t impact the team positively in almost any way from last season. again, excluding Kincaid. Because my initial argument earlier was that we upgraded at the TE position and did not at the WR position. so back to our regularly scheduled bickering back and forth between some of us that don’t wear rose colored glasses everywhere and some of us that do. and I’m not pointing you out NE. Some people here don’t think as logically as you do. 3 minutes ago, Logic said: This is my number one concern about Dorsey: Making proper usage of his offensive personnel in the way that best highlights their skillset. And the disconnect you mentioned between Beane and Dorsey was startling. All offseason we heard about the desire for a pass-catching back. Beane spent premium draft capital on one and then traded for another. Dorsey then completely failed to use Cook meaningfully in that role, and completely failed to use Hines AT ALL. For a team that desperately needed more production in the short passing game and more explosiveness and offensive variety, to underuse/misuse both players -- Hines, in particular -- was head-scratching and infuriating. He was a rookie play-caller, so I'll give him a pass for now. I hope, for the Bills' sake, that his personnel deployment improves greatly, and that his apparent disconnect with Beane got hashed out in the offseason. Don’t forget the McKinnon debacle last free agency. It was going all the way back in the beginning of the off-season they were looking for a pass catching RB. Would have thought they used them more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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