WR Position and my thoughts

[JerseyBills]

5 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I can summarize it in two sentences:

 

Following the Chiefs playoff game, the Bills management clearly expected Gabe Davis to blossom into a significant threat.  That has not happened.

 

The end.

This. As did majority of fans and media. I mean he put up a NFL playoff record 

[folz]

Let's finally put the OBJ thing to bed. He's not playing this year, he's getting older, two ACLs in the same knee, does NOT have Bills DNA. If we have to wait for next year anyhow, then I would rather have an early draft pick WR and/or a younger FA.

 

And people seem to have short memories. At the end of last year, our offense was absolutely humming, and our defense (though ranked first) was vulnerable to being run up the middle, we lacked in the pass rush department, fans had been saying for two years that we needed to upgrade Levi's position, and Tre was now out with an ACL. It made total sense to draft corners and upgrade the defensive line via free agency as our #1 priority. And though the secondary has been a bit of a mess this year with the injuries (and rookies), I don't think that anyone can say that the defensive line improvements haven't made a significant difference. This idea that Beane and McDermott only care about improving the defense and ignore the offense just isn't true (in a post a while back I showed that they have brought in the same number of offensive and defensive players since they've been here, both in the draft and free agency). You can't solve every single problem every off season. You go for your biggest needs. Not every plan worked, but I understand why they made the choices that they did.

 

I know a lot of people were calling for a wide receiver in the off season (and at this moment they have plenty of info to back up their stance). But, after hearing a lot of the interviews since Cole's return, etc. I'm wondering if losing Cole hasn't been our biggest issue on offense, not that Gabe isn't a good #2, Knox sucks, McKenzie sucks, etc. I'm not a huge X's and O's guy either, so this is just my opinion based on what has been said.

 

The offense was spectacular at the end of last year and the only major piece we lost was Cole. So, they bring in Crowder (another excellent slot player) to take the role, with McKenzie mixed in.

 

McKenzie is good against man coverage because of his speed.

I think that Gabe's best skills are against man coverage as well, because of his size and speed.

 

Once Crowder went down, teams could go to zone coverage almost exclusively against us, because our only true zone beater was Diggs. And then you just double Diggs. Now you can say that Crowder wouldn't have been the answer because he didn't have a great start to the season, but he has been one of the better slots in the league for a while and I believe he would have adapted to our system and Josh's arm with more reps/time and been very good for us. Unfortunately that didn't happen.

 

Also, I don't think people realize how much (at least early in the season) that Gabe was also getting double coverage. Teams weren't worried about the slot. Defenses were trying to take away our big chunk plays. To beat that, you need to methodically move the chains using the slot and your RBs/TEs. I think defenses know that is not Josh's strength, and secondly, they weren't worried as much about those players tearing them up. This is exactly what happened during our offensive slump last year, but Josh was able to overcome it by learning to play Brady-like. But he had Cole last year (Welker, Edelman)...and it worked. Apparently McKenzie just isn't good at finding that opening in the zone, and maybe Josh doesn't trust him to get open or hang on to the ball, etc. So, it isn't working this year. (That doesn't mean McKenzie sucks, it's just not his skill set to beat zone in the slot. But if they are playing man, he can be a weapon. He was meant to be used when his strengths gave the Bills an advantage, not be playing there full time).

 

Another way they tried to address the teams playing zone coverage was by signing McKissic...we all know what happened there. So, they draft Cook. And while he has flashed, and I believe he will be a good player for us going forward, he is still a rookie who is learning. His game is still lacking in the knowledge/blocking areas, so he has to be used sparingly. Maybe they can eventually work Hines into that role they were envisioning and with Cole's/Crowder's return, finally have the offense that they envisioned at the start of the year.

 

And to the OP, I don't think Gabe's production has/had anything to do with Sanders or a vet presence in front of him, etc. Sanders barely played the second half of last year (because of the injury and Gabe playing well), and he wasn't more productive than Gabe. In fact everyone was saying Gabe should be the starter.

 

If we can start pulling teams out of zone, I guarantee our wide receivers are all going to look better. Or if not, then Josh can get back to picking them apart with short throws over the middle of the field. I'm hoping that Cole still has enough and/or the return of Crowder will solve a lot of these issues. As it is, we are still the second best offense in the league right now...fixing the slot may just push us over the top again. It may not be that our players all of a sudden suck, just that they have not been able to be used to their strengths because there was a missing element to our offense. Of course, they have to clean up the drops too for it to work, but I think they will. Gabe never had drop issues before, I think he'll pull out of it. And McKenzie now won't be asked to make the types of plays he has been missing.

 

It may be an overly-optimistic view to some, but maybe, just maybe, over the next few weeks our offense finally finds it's stride again.

 

 

Having said all of that, I do agree that addressing the offensive line and drafting a young WR this offseason will be major priorities.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by folz

[Andy1]

Obviously the coaches know there are limitations with the current receivers on the roster. Injuries have also derailed the receiver room. I hope next year the draft has a focus on receiver and offensive line in the early rounds. We need some talented young players in those positions which Bean has been filling with garage sale players. 

[LABILLBACKER]

5 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

My question is will they address this problem in the offseason with the attention it needs? Is there a receiver in the draft that can come in and produce immediately like Wilson, Olave?

We've been begging them for 3 years. But this coaching staff is obsessed with Defensive players in the draft. We need 2 OL & a WR in the first 3 picks. Saffold and Spencer have to be replaced immediately. 

[Dr. Who]

29 minutes ago, folz said:

Let's finally put the OBJ thing to bed. He's not playing this year, he's getting older, two ACLs in the same knee, does NOT have Bills DNA. If we have to wait for next year anyhow, then I would rather have an early draft pick WR and/or a younger FA.

 

And people seem to have short memories. At the end of last year, our offense was absolutely humming, and our defense (though ranked first) was vulnerable to being run up the middle, we lacked in the pass rush department, fans had been saying for two years that we needed to upgrade Levi's position, and Tre was now out with an ACL. It made total sense to draft corners and upgrade the defensive line via free agency as our #1 priority. And though the secondary has been a bit of a mess this year with the injuries (and rookies), I don't think that anyone can say that the defensive line improvements haven't made a significant difference. This idea that Beane and McDermott only care about improving the defense and ignore the offense just isn't true (in a post a while back I showed that they have brought in the same number of offensive and defensive players since they've been here, both in the draft and free agency). You can't solve every single problem every off season. You go for your biggest needs. Not every plan worked, but I understand why they made the choices that they did.

 

I know a lot of people were calling for a wide receiver in the off season (and at this moment they have plenty of info to back up their stance). But, after hearing a lot of the interviews since Cole's return, etc. I'm wondering if losing Cole hasn't been our biggest issue on offense, not that Gabe isn't a good #2, Knox sucks, McKenzie sucks, etc. I'm not a huge X's and O's guy either, so this is just my opinion based on what has been said.

 

The offense was spectacular at the end of last year and the only major piece we lost was Cole. So, they bring in Crowder (another excellent slot player) to take the role, with McKenzie mixed in.

 

McKenzie is good against man coverage because of his speed.

I think that Gabe's best skills are against man coverage as well, because of his size and speed.

 

Once Crowder went down, teams could go to zone coverage almost exclusively against us, because our only true zone beater was Diggs. And then you just double Diggs. Now you can say that Crowder wouldn't have been the answer because he didn't have a great start to the season, but he has been one of the better slots in the league for a while and I believe he would have adapted to our system and Josh's arm with more reps/time and been very good for us. Unfortunately that didn't happen.

 

Also, I don't think people realize how much (at least early in the season) that Gabe was also getting double coverage. Teams weren't worried about the slot. Defenses were trying to take away our big chunk plays. To beat that, you need to methodically move the chains using the slot and your RBs/TEs. I think defenses know that is not Josh's strength, and secondly, they weren't worried as much about those players tearing them up. This is exactly what happened during our offensive slump last year, but Josh was able to overcome it by learning to play Brady-like. But he had Cole last year (Welker, Edelman)...and it worked. Apparently McKenzie just isn't good at finding that opening in the zone, and maybe Josh doesn't trust him to get open or hang on to the ball, etc. So, it isn't working this year. (That doesn't mean McKenzie sucks, it's just not his skill set to beat zone in the slot. But if they are playing man, he can be a weapon. He was meant to be used when his strengths gave the Bills an advantage, not be playing there full time).

 

Another way they tried to address the teams playing zone coverage was by signing McKissic...we all know what happened there. So, they draft Cook. And while he has flashed, and I believe he will be a good player for us going forward, he is still a rookie who is learning. His game is still lacking in the knowledge/blocking areas, so he has to be used sparingly. Maybe they can eventually work Hines into that role they were envisioning and with Cole's/Crowder's return, finally have the offense that they envisioned at the start of the year.

 

And to the OP, I don't think Gabe's production has/had anything to do with Sanders or a vet presence in front of him, etc. Sanders barely played the second half of last year (because of the injury and Gabe playing well), and he wasn't more productive than Gabe. In fact everyone was saying Gabe should be the starter.

 

If we can start pulling teams out of zone, I guarantee our wide receivers are all going to look better. Or if not, then Josh can get back to picking them apart with short throws over the middle of the field. I'm hoping that Cole still has enough and/or the return of Crowder will solve a lot of these issues. As it is, we are still the second best offense in the league right now...fixing the slot may just push us over the top again. It may not be that our players all of a sudden suck, just that they have not been able to be used to their strengths because there was a missing element to our offense. Of course, they have to clean up the drops too for it to work, but I think they will. Gabe never had drop issues before, I think he'll pull out of it. And McKenzie now won't be asked to make the types of plays he has been missing.

 

It may be an overly-optimistic view to some, but maybe, just maybe, over the next few weeks our offense finally finds it's stride again.

 

 

Having said all of that, I do agree that addressing the offensive line and drafting a young WR this offseason will be major priorities.

 

 

This is well thought out, though also certainly on the optimistic side. And honestly, you can say the numbers dedicated to improvement are equally on both sides of the ball. I just don't buy that the resources are evenly spread out. Though I understand you can't fix everything and that there were needs on defense as well, I was one of those who wanted more attention to the oline and wr last year. On the plus side, the changes on Dline have been particularly effective and Rousseau has emerged as a top-tier player. I don't know if folks have realized yet how strong his game is. However, the first round cb so far is not seeing the field as much as one would like. (I expect Elam will be fine, btw.) Nonetheless, I wanted to trade up for Jameson Williams who just now is seeing the field with the Lions. If you were inserting Williams into the Bills' lineup right about now, there would be a real chance he would be a game changer. Regardless, at this point, everyone has to hope for the best possible outcome. Next year, offense must be a priority. If you want Allen to have a long, productive career, pour much more resources into the oline. However, I suspect the focus with this bunch is going to be safety.

[MarlinTheMagician]

NOBJ

[Low Positive]

4 minutes ago, MarlinTheMagician said:

NOBJ

I didn’t know my wife posted on TBD.

[BBills_88]

Just draft 2 of these highly talented receivers in the 2023 draft.  There are plenty of them.

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

Shakir’s lack of production is shocking, after all the reports on how advanced his route running is.  He must be getting zero separation from CB3 every play. I did not see much burst on his college tape (he looked like Sills to me) but bought into all the hype coming out of camp, now I’m depressed.  I can easily see him off the roster next year given the disaster that has taken place this year. 

 

I don't think he'll necessarily be off the roster.  Beane commented that it's quite the step up in competition from Boise State to the NFL.

 

I think part of his problem is he isn't recognizing zone coverage and understanding where his windows are in zone.  Part of his problem is he has to learn how to beat NFL-level press coverage off the line.  And, he needs to get stronger, NFL strong.  He seems to be a nice guy, so I imagine someone will take him under their wing and get him to invest in some of the off-season training that Diggs does ("Receiver Factory: Won't get you stronger, Won't get you faster, Will get you Open")

 

I also think it's going to be a huge help to him to have Beasley around to watch.

[nosejob]

I for one choose to trust McBeane. I think he's doing a good job at staggering contracts. Everyone can B word about Defensive picks and whatever, but I don't think he believes in a temp build.....like the Rams or Denver. We got Josh then Diggs , had a few good drafts , built a good base for defense and this off season, I'm sure he'll build a great Oline with some other pieces along the way. He's building for long term competitiveness and I love that. I believe come next year, we will have one of the best lines in the league.

[Beast]

Really, outside of Allen, Diggs and Morse, our offense leaves a lot to be desired. Fortunately for us, Allen is a freak.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Beast said:

Really, outside of Allen, Diggs and Morse, our offense leaves a lot to be desired. Fortunately for us, Allen is a freak.

You're so right. Allen, Diggs and Morse are really the only consistent offensive players you can count on.  If Bates didn't get injured I'd throw him in there. The rest have been up & down all season.  Orlovsky is right, we're just not as powerful as 20 or 21.  If we don't go heavy on OL/WR this April someone needs to lose their job.

[TFBillsfan]

George Pickens, WR was a second round pick by Pitt. He’d look great in this offense.  We went CB in rd 1 which was understandable based upon Tre and losing Levi.

 

I like the Beasley signing but am worried everyone will just think he comes in and everything instantly clicks. Will be a great story if that happens but I also feel  signing Smoke and Beasley won’t have the impact we all want. 100% want to be wrong!

[Solomon Grundy]

32 minutes ago, TFBillsfan said:

George Pickens, WR was a second round pick by Pitt. He’d look great in this offense.  We went CB in rd 1 which was understandable based upon Tre and losing Levi.

 

I like the Beasley signing but am worried everyone will just think he comes in and everything instantly clicks. Will be a great story if that happens but I also feel  signing Smoke and Beasley won’t have the impact we all want. 100% want to be wrong!

The Bills didn't have to reach for Elam in rd 1. It's even more disappointing now that he's been subjected to the bench. 

[MarlinTheMagician]

Beasley and Smoke could both help down the stretch.  Roster spots though - tough.  

[Solomon Grundy]

6 hours ago, folz said:

Having said all of that

You certainly did😎

[Andy1]

4 hours ago, Beast said:

Really, outside of Allen, Diggs and Morse, our offense leaves a lot to be desired. Fortunately for us, Allen is a freak.

Allen covers up the weaknesses on offense. Bean has invested tons of dollars and draft capital in the defense which has great players at all positions. The offense has inconsistent, marginally talented players all over the place. He better focus on offense after the season. 

[whorlnut]

10 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

The Bills didn't have to reach for Elam in rd 1. It's even more disappointing now that he's been subjected to the bench. 

Totally agree. Just because we needed a corner didn’t meant it had to be in round 1. 

[Warriorspikes51]

2 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

Totally agree. Just because we needed a corner didn’t meant it had to be in round 1. 

 

to be fair, many fans would have flipped out even more if we didn't 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

I'm guessing with the additions of Beasley and Brown that Shakir is now out of the lineup on gamedays

[Warriorspikes51]

4 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

I'm guessing with the additions of Beasley and Brown that Shakir is now out of the lineup on gamedays

As much as that idea annoys me....if they aren't going to use him then yea.  Brown if elevated again this week will need to be moved onto the 53 next week

Diggs
Davis
Beasley

Brown
McKenzie 

[since79]

I think Beasley is elevated this week, Brown stays put.  Brown up against the Bears, last call up, down for next 2.  Beasley up for Cinci and NE.  Playoffs unlimited call ups no need for a roster spot this way.  If the offense improves with Beasley he will be up the entire playoffs and Brown will be insurance.

Edited December 16, 2022 by since79

[Solomon Grundy]

36 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

 

to be fair, many fans would have flipped out even more if we didn't 

I sincerely hope Beane isn't drafting players because of how the fans may feel

[whorlnut]

16 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

I sincerely hope Beane isn't drafting players because of how the fans may feel

Beane has always preached he doesn’t draft for need but last year and the year before sure felt that way…