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So how good has Allen been?


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7 minutes ago, Mango said:

Yes Josh is awesome, and likely will go down as the best Bill of all time. 
 

But when it comes to total touchdowns, Josh’s running is in addition to. Not in place of. 
 

It feels disingenuous to try and compete with a record set by Marino, one of the greatest pure passers of all time, by adding in rushing TD’s in a different era of football all together. 

Lol no

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1 hour ago, StHustle said:

How many did Mahomes have in his first 5 years as a starter 🤔 I’m a huge Josh fan but don’t like stats that are misleading. Josh will end up with the record but if it was changed to first 5 seasons as a full time starter, without looking, I’m sure it’s Mahomes by a landslide 

Nothing misleading about it : it’s exactly what it says it is. Without the player’s first year it’s not the same record. There’s no cherry picking going on. Why didn’t Mahomes win the job year one? He wasn’t exactly backing up Manning or Favre. Not knocking him , but it’s not the same thing. 

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1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

It’s not a coincidence that he hurt his elbow and then he started having not so great games

The elbow was hurt the third to the last down against the Jets, in a game where Allen largely struggled. The Bills as an offense has struggled greatly for halves at a time ever since the Packers game, where his elbow was also just fine. It’s being used as a scapegoat for some of his poorer decisions lately, the uncharacteristic play didn’t begin with hurting his elbow. 

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1 hour ago, StHustle said:


Everyone in the record books had different levels of teammate talent. My point is that FIRST X AMOUNT OF GAMES STARTED is the better measuring stick for a record like this. Or else you can say things like Zach Wilson ranked waaaay higher than Aaron Rodgers on most TDs in first 2 seasons. Allen has plenty of legit records but to me this isn’t one. Just my imo.

This record is as it says in his first five years he has the second most combined touchdowns to Dan Marino. Which considering the crap he played with till Diggs got here in year 3 is nothing short of remarkable 

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2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Josh is the main reason we have won 8 games. He is also the main reason for 2 of the 3 losses. There is still an element of "the Josh Allen experience" about it, but I wouldn't swap him for anyone. 

 

Get him 100% healthy in time for the playoffs and we will have a shot in any game, anywhere.

I think this could be the worst I've ever seen him. Remember how he used to NEVER turn the ball over in the red zone?

 

But even at his worst he can still take over games and will the team to victory. He is a pretty amazing QB.

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1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said:

Nothing misleading about it : it’s exactly what it says it is. Without the player’s first year it’s not the same record. There’s no cherry picking going on. Why didn’t Mahomes win the job year one? He wasn’t exactly backing up Manning or Favre. Not knocking him , but it’s not the same thing. 


100% the coaches decision. Mahomes didn’t magically become who he is sitting behind Alex Smith, getting no game experience nor first team reps. If he was thrown in game 1 he’d have that record. That’s why it’s hard for me to feel good appreciating it. You and everyone else can feel however you want about the specific record but to me, actual games started is what this type of record should be measured by.

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3 hours ago, smuvtalker said:

We live and die with Josh Allen, and there isn't a quarterback on the planet I'd rather have than # 17. 

 

It's a wonderful feeling knowing that when we need a game winning drive, doesn't matter who we're playing, that we ALWAYS have a chance with him under center.  

 

 

Hear, Hear. Well said.

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45 minutes ago, StHustle said:


100% the coaches decision. Mahomes didn’t magically become who he is sitting behind Alex Smith, getting no game experience nor first team reps. If he was thrown in game 1 he’d have that record. That’s why it’s hard for me to feel good appreciating it. You and everyone else can feel however you want about the specific record but to me, actual games started is what this type of record should be measured by.

 

They did actually do some major clean up work with Mahomes's footwork in his rookie year before they gave him the job. Remember early last year when he had a bad patch (not dissimilar to Josh this year) he had reverted to some old habits footwork wise. Not saying he'd have sucked if he started day 1 or anything but there was a reason Reid wanted to sit him. 

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4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They did actually do some major clean up work with Mahomes's footwork in his rookie year before they gave him the job. Remember early last year when he had a bad patch (not dissimilar to Josh this year) he had reverted to some old habits footwork wise. Not saying he'd have sucked if he started day 1 or anything but there was a reason Reid wanted to sit him. 

 

I have commented on how Josh's feet and throwing platform has been "not good" the last few weeks.

It started even before the injury.

He is having too many "arm only" passes.  Granted the "not good" OL is causing him to scramble too much causing a lot of it.

 

I'm hoping so much that it gets identified and repaired.

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4 hours ago, StHustle said:

How many did Mahomes have in his first 5 years as a starter 🤔 I’m a huge Josh fan but don’t like stats that are misleading. Josh will end up with the record but if it was changed to first 5 seasons as a full time starter, without looking, I’m sure it’s Mahomes by a landslide 

Btw since you asked

Dan Marino 171

Josh Allen 161

Cam Newton 160

Patrick Mahomes 159

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5 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Btw since you asked

Dan Marino 171

Josh Allen 161

Cam Newton 160

Patrick Mahomes 159


Wrong. Mahomes has 179 TDs with 7 games left in his 5th season as a starter. Everyone on that list except Mahomes became starters their rookie season. It’s a BS comparison…let’s be real.

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48 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They did actually do some major clean up work with Mahomes's footwork in his rookie year before they gave him the job. Remember early last year when he had a bad patch (not dissimilar to Josh this year) he had reverted to some old habits footwork wise. Not saying he'd have sucked if he started day 1 or anything but there was a reason Reid wanted to sit him. 


Ok but we can assume had he started his rookie season while being coached up he likely would have at least matched Josh’s rookie season he got coached up. Especially considering he’d have 50 TD passes the next season, his first as a starter.

 

Look, Josh just being on the list is a huge accomplishment but the start to his career is not better than Mahomes…and not even considering the accolades. Pure stat wise. Allen overcame an up and down rookie year in an amazing way to be on this list. I’d just like to celebrate the actual accomplishment and not the exaggerated version.

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5 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 Is it Josh's fault, or anyone else's for that matter, that Mahomes didn't play in his 1st 15 games? The record is for their 1st 5 years in the league, not as a starter. That would be a totally different record, such as the best 5 year span of their career.

 

 

 

Very much agree…there’s tons of other stats that mahomes benefitted from by sitting out a year and learning the offense too

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4 hours ago, Mango said:

Yes Josh is awesome, and likely will go down as the best Bill of all time. 
 

But when it comes to total touchdowns, Josh’s running is in addition to. Not in place of. 
 

It feels disingenuous to try and compete with a record set by Marino, one of the greatest pure passers of all time, by adding in rushing TD’s in a different era of football all together. 

You’re missing the point. Josh will probably surpass any player (pure passer or not) in tds over 5 years. That includes Vick, Lamar, Steve Young, Elway and any other QB

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2 hours ago, StHustle said:


100% the coaches decision. Mahomes didn’t magically become who he is sitting behind Alex Smith, getting no game experience nor first team reps. If he was thrown in game 1 he’d have that record. That’s why it’s hard for me to feel good appreciating it. You and everyone else can feel however you want about the specific record but to me, actual games started is what this type of record should be measured by.

A lot of talk that mahomes was awful in his first camp so I’m not sure that’s true.  Tyreek hill thought mahomes was ‘trash’ as a rookie 

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1 minute ago, StHustle said:


Wrong. Mahomes has 179 TDs with 7 games left in his 5th season as a starter. Everyone on that list except Mahomes became starters their rookie season. It’s a BS comparison…let’s be real.

 

If you are going to say first 5 years as starter (rather than first 5 years in the league), then Patrick has started 3 more games than Josh over that span. So, you would have to stop counting Patrick's stats after week 15 this year, while Josh's stats get to go to week 18.

 

Currently Josh has 161 TDs and Patrick has 179 TDs. But, as I said, Josh gets three extra starts this year. Over the last three years, Josh is averaging 2.73 TDs per game, so that equates to 8.19 TDs for those extra three games. 

 

So, a fair assessment at this point (according to your scenario) is to add 8 TDs to Josh's total. Which would make it currently 179 for Mahomes and 169 for Josh. Mahomes would still be in the lead, but not by a landslide (as you stated). Plus when Mahomes started with KC, they were already a very good playoff team with a lot of talent (Alex Smith took them to the playoffs three years in a row before Mahomes took over). Josh's first two years with the Bills, the team was awful and severely lacking in talent and starting with a new coaching staff trying to build a culture. KC's culture was already in place under Reid (Andy had been there 5 years already when Patrick took over). And as others said, there is value to sitting for a year behind a good QB, learning the system and improving your mechanics, rather than being thrown into the fire right away (and with Peterman as your clip board manager, not some vet that Josh could have learned from---Derek Anderson wasn't brought in until week 5 or 6 his rookie year and still had to learn the offense, etc. before he could really help Josh---and that's still not the same as watching another guy actually practice and start for an entire year).

 

A 10 TD difference over 5 seasons equates to only 1 extra TD every 8+ games. Or 2 TDs per season.

 

As I said, yes, Mahomes is still ahead, but not by enough for you to so vehemently denounce this thread (especially considering the circumstances of their first two years). And no one is saying Josh is better than Mahomes. I think most fans see them on pretty even footing as the two best QBs in the league at this point. Saying something nice about Josh doesn't diminish what Mahomes has done, and vice versa.

 

 

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4 hours ago, StHustle said:


Everyone in the record books had different levels of teammate talent. My point is that FIRST X AMOUNT OF GAMES STARTED is the better measuring stick for a record like this. Or else you can say things like Zach Wilson ranked waaaay higher than Aaron Rodgers on most TDs in first 2 seasons. Allen has plenty of legit records but to me this isn’t one. Just my imo.

 

 Why is it a better measuring stick? You also called it a misleading record. Wouldn't be misleading to count someone who got to sit a year and learn vs someone who was thrown to the wolves in the 2nd half of their 1st game ever as a level playing field? IMO that's a far, far more flawed way of looking at it, one has a huge advantage over the other.

 

 And yes Zach Wilson does ranked way higher than Rodgers in TDs through their first 2 seasons. Next you'll say you should count Rodgers 4th and 5th seasons as his first 2 years. Even though they used the 3 years he sat behind Farve to teach him everything he needed to know and spent the time fixing flaws in his drop back and throwing mechanics. Maybe GB should've petitioned the league to make Rodgers rookie of the year in his 4th year, because that's when he became the starter and that's the only time that should count by your logic.

 

 

 

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