2022 MVP: Mahomes wins. Allen gets 1 vote? (42 TDs, 19 TOs, 315 YPG & 63.3%% Comp %--EOY talk 54+)

[Billz4ever]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Hines played 11% of our offensive snaps since the trade. McKinnon played 47% of offensive snaps for the Chiefs. This is a Dorsey vs. Reid stat, not Allen vs. Mahomes.

 

Why we refused to use the explosive RB we traded for, couldn't tell you. Why we refused to throw the ball to the pass catching RB that we spent a 2nd round pick on, couldn't tell you. It goes to show that for all the talk of comparing talent, the biggest discrepancy between Allen and Mahomes this past season BY FAR is coaching. Mahomes got Andy Reid, whose experience designing plays and calling offenses goes without saying. Allen got a first year OC and first time play caller. This commonly gets ignored in the discussion.

 

So if you want to say the offensive weapons are a wash, okay, but there is no argument whatsoever with the offensive line and with the coaching. Why is there even a debate if their situations were comparable? It is not close. I would love to see what the Bills offense looks like for one drive with Case Keenum at QB starting at the 2 line. If anyone here thinks he leads us to a TD, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

 

Everything you said is true.

 

But what each QB has to work with can be debated with any QB to QB comparison in the league. In the end, all we can go by is what they do on the field.

 

If Josh can get a better line and some more weapons, maybe we see him overtake Mahomes, but the point being is he would have to prove it first on the field.

 

The debate can't simply be boiled down to a hypothetical that says if QB A had what QB B does, he'd be the better one.  He would still have to prove it on the field first.  

 

I hope Beane and Co can get there and get the missing pieces Josh needs.  He deserves it after several years of having the defense prioritized over him IMO.

 

 

[BillsFan130]

47 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

It's just so odd and is hard to pin down the cause.

 

It was like...we've got this great way of keeping the chains moving, but we don't want to do it anymore.  We want to repeatedly chuck it 40 yards instead. 

 

 

A theory I have is Gabe just wasn’t good enough as a short/intermediate route runner.

 

Also, they didn’t have a true slot receiver. I think We missed crowder more than we thought .

 

I am not defending Dorsey as I thought his play calling was bad. However he may have thought with a flawed WR2 and without a true slot receiver who can consistently move the sticks, the best chance to beat teams would be to go deep

 

[Billz4ever]

6 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

A theory I have is Gabe just wasn’t good enough as a short/intermediate route runner.

 

Also, they didn’t have a true slot receiver. I think We missed crowder more than we thought .

 

I am not defending Dorsey as I thought his play calling was bad. However he may have thought with a flawed WR2 and without a true slot receiver who can consistently move the sticks, the best chance to beat teams would be to go deep

 

Totally agree with the use of the slot, but I don't think it's Crowder they missed as much.  He only had 3 catches on the season when he went down.

 

I think they missed Beasley more than anything.  Say what you want about him and him getting older, but Josh trusted him and was always the guy that could get open and get Josh out of a jam. 

 

That aspect of our offense from the slot all but completely disappeared this year.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Billz4ever

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

My argument is that the Chiefs weapons are not much different. If you want to argue Kelce > Diggs and Juju > Gabe fine, but they are the same tiers of player.

 

I don't think they're the same tiers. Kelce will go down as arguably the greatest TE in history. Diggs will go down as one of the best WRs of his era. I love Diggs but he is not clearly a Hall of Famer at this point. Kelce is a no brainer 1st ballot selection. I don't think you can throw those two in the same bucket.

 

JuJu when he was the #2 to a great #1 option in Pittsburgh had 917 yards as a rookie even though he missed 2 games. His 2nd year he collected 1,426 yards. They tried to make him the #1 WR and that did not work, but as the #2 target to an elite #1 target he had proven himself before he came to KC. Davis on the other hand had 599 and 549 yards his first and second years respectively, and hit a career high of 836 yards this past year. Davis was a fun fantasy football debate in the offseason but otherwise he is an afterthought to most of the wider NFL community. He has yet to prove himself capable of producing as a #2 target in a high volume passing offense. JuJu has already done that. So again, not the same tier.

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't think they're the same tiers. Kelce will go down as arguably the greatest TE in history. Diggs will go down as one of the best WRs of his era. I love Diggs but he is not clearly a Hall of Famer at this point. Kelce is a no brainer 1st ballot selection. I don't think you can throw those two in the same bucket.

 

Well yeah, that's because you comparing him to other TEs not simply calling him a receiver, which is the point here.  Offensive production.  If he and Diggs are producing the same numbers on the field, the fact that one is a TE while the other is a WR is making a distinction without a difference.

 

If we were comparing Kelce to Knox, obviously Kelce is better, just as if we compared Diggs to any of the KC WRs.  Where they line up is irrelevant. What they contribute to the offense is the point and in that aspect, they are nearly identical.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Billl]

 

[LABILLBACKER]

37 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Hines played 11% of our offensive snaps since the trade. McKinnon played 47% of offensive snaps for the Chiefs. This is a Dorsey vs. Reid stat, not Allen vs. Mahomes.

 

Why we refused to use the explosive RB we traded for, couldn't tell you. Why we refused to throw the ball to the pass catching RB that we spent a 2nd round pick on, couldn't tell you. It goes to show that for all the talk of comparing talent, the biggest discrepancy between Allen and Mahomes this past season BY FAR is coaching. Mahomes got Andy Reid, whose experience designing plays and calling offenses goes without saying. Allen got a first year OC and first time play caller. This commonly gets ignored in the discussion.

 

So if you want to say the offensive weapons are a wash, okay, but there is no argument whatsoever with the offensive line and with the coaching. Why is there even a debate if their situations were comparable? It is not close. I would love to see what the Bills offense looks like for one drive with Case Keenum at QB starting at the 2 line. If anyone here thinks he leads us to a TD, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

 

It's not ignored on me or I think a majority of our fans.  Players like Cook, Hines, Shakir and Elam all should've not only played more but played earlier. This moronic philosophy of holding back young talent is holding back this team. And it's got to end.

[GunnerBill]

39 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Hines played 11% of our offensive snaps since the trade. McKinnon played 47% of offensive snaps for the Chiefs. This is a Dorsey vs. Reid stat, not Allen vs. Mahomes.

 

Why we refused to use the explosive RB we traded for, couldn't tell you. Why we refused to throw the ball to the pass catching RB that we spent a 2nd round pick on, couldn't tell you. It goes to show that for all the talk of comparing talent, the biggest discrepancy between Allen and Mahomes this past season BY FAR is coaching. Mahomes got Andy Reid, whose experience designing plays and calling offenses goes without saying. Allen got a first year OC and first time play caller. This commonly gets ignored in the discussion.

 

So if you want to say the offensive weapons are a wash, okay, but there is no argument whatsoever with the offensive line and with the coaching. Why is there even a debate if their situations were comparable? It is not close. I would love to see what the Bills offense looks like for one drive with Case Keenum at QB starting at the 2 line. If anyone here thinks he leads us to a TD, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

 

 

I have never argued that the coaching or offensive line is comparable. Not was I arguing Mahomes vs Allen. I was simply making the point again about the receiving options. It is actually part of my argument for the Bills prioritising the offensive line. Give Allen an extra second to be comfortable before he is looking at the rush or on the move and he will make even the relatively middling weapons look better. He is that good. 

 

If you want to do Mahomes vs Allen, Mahomes played better this year and hence was the MVP. People can quibble about the naming of the award or whatever, I'm not really fussed by that. Doesn't mean Josh Allen isn't an elite Quarterback. He clearly is. 

[HappyDays]

46 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I think there is a tremendous argument that pairing a good (not even HoF level, just good) offensive mind with a franchise QB is the secret to sustained success in the NFL.

 

I'm not advocating for firing McD.  But if I was starting a franchise tomorrow, I would try to pair an offensive HC with my franchise QB 10/10 times over a defensive guy.

 

Mahomes had Reid. Rodgers had McCarthy/LaFleur. Brady had BB as his HC, but had McDaniels for almost his entire tenure in NE. Goff/Stafford with McVay.  Zac Taylor and Burrow. 

 

It's no different than OL IMO.  You want continuity, familiarity and limited turnover around your franchise QB.  A great defensive mind is all well and good, but in the salary cap era, it's way easier to have a consistent offense with the same good-great QB over 15 years than great defenses. 

 

I have said my preference after next season if we have another disappointing playoff exit is to hire Ben Johnson as head coach. One year with Detroit and he designed one of the most creative offenses I've ever seen, and got Jared Goff to perform at the best level of his career. My biggest fear is that we give McDermott too many chances and Ben Johnson goes on to become the next Kyle Shanahan with another franchise.

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by HappyDays

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't think they're the same tiers. Kelce will go down as arguably the greatest TE in history. Diggs will go down as one of the best WRs of his era. I love Diggs but he is not clearly a Hall of Famer at this point. Kelce is a no brainer 1st ballot selection. I don't think you can throw those two in the same bucket.

 

JuJu when he was the #2 to a great #1 option in Pittsburgh had 917 yards as a rookie even though he missed 2 games. His 2nd year he collected 1,426 yards. They tried to make him the #1 WR and that did not work, but as the #2 target to an elite #1 target he had proven himself before he came to KC. Davis on the other hand had 599 and 549 yards his first and second years respectively, and hit a career high of 836 yards this past year. Davis was a fun fantasy football debate in the offseason but otherwise he is an afterthought to most of the wider NFL community. He has yet to prove himself capable of producing as a #2 target in a high volume passing offense. JuJu has already done that. So again, not the same tier.

 

Once Juju was not opposite literally the best receiver in football at the time he wasn't the same guy. He has been a low end #2 ever since. Take the point about Kelce vs Diggs, don't deny Kelce is destined for the HoF.... but the criteria for HoF at tight end and HoF at receiver isn't the same, is it? There are not many tight ends in history who can justifiably say the were their team's #1. Kelce is, so his place in the pantheon of the greats is assured. Diggs has just had the best 3 year run of a receiver on a new team in the history of the NFL... but because of the way the HoF works that isn't going to make him a HoFer, nor should it. But in terms of weapons on the field now they are both elite. In terms of impact on the history of the game, sure Kelce has an advantage. 

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

I have said my preference after next season if we have another disappointing playoff exit is to hire Ben Johnson as OC. One year with Detroit and he designed one of the most creative offenses I've ever seen, and got Jared Goff to perform at the best level of his career. My biggest fear is that we give McDermott too many chances and Ben Johnson goes onto become the next Kyle Shanahan with another franchise.

 

You mean as HC, not OC. But I agree Johnson, if he can back it up in 2023 is going to be the #1 Head Coaching candidate in football next year. If the Bills do decide to move on he is the guy I'd want. I do need to see him back it up first though. Think he was VERY wise not to jump this year and to go back to Detroit. 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

 

So you admit that's homer behavior.  Glad we agree.  And I will call it out since it's unreasonable and clearly lacks objectivity.  They like Josh Allen.  Great, so do I.  When you start making BS statements to teardown an opponent that aren't based in reality, that's when I have an issue.

 

 

 

 

Some are homers but most are being objective and simply disagree with you.

 

And it's your opinion that what we're saying is "unreasonable and clearly lacks objectivity".  To me the idea that Allen & Mahomes should be compared as if they're on a level playing field is ludicrous on its face.

 

And what have I said that you consider "BS"? 

 

BTW I find it really odd that you would have an issue with anyone on 2BD believing that Allen is every bit as good as Mahomes.  Disagree, fine, but have an issue? Please. This is after all a Buffalo Bills message board.

 

 

 

 

 

[HappyDays]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

You mean as HC, not OC. But I agree Johnson, if he can back it up in 2023 is going to be the #1 Head Coaching candidate in football next year. If the Bills do decide to move on he is the guy I'd want. I do need to see him back it up first though. Think he was VERY wise not to jump this year and to go back to Detroit. 

 

Yeah I edited it right after I posted it.

 

I think we would be the best possible candidate for Ben Johnson too. Come start your head coaching career with Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs. I know we have gone back and forth on McDermott's future here, but I will say Ben Johnson being available next year colors that conversation for me. I agree with you that trading picks for Sean Payton or hiring Jim Harbaugh is not a good enough outcome to justify moving on from McDermott. But if you have a chance to get the brightest young offensive mind in the NFL? Then yes I think potentially moving on a little too early is worth the swing.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I edited it right after I posted it.

 

I think we would be the best possible candidate for Ben Johnson too. Come start your head coaching career with Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs. I know we have gone back and forth on McDermott's future here, but I will say Ben Johnson being available next year colors that conversation for me. I agree with you that trading picks for Sean Payton or hiring Jim Harbaugh is not a good enough outcome to justify moving on from McDermott. But if you have a chance to get the brightest young offensive mind in the NFL? Then yes I think potentially moving on a little too early is worth the swing.

 

I will want to see how next season goes but in principle I agree with you. 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

124 TDs for Mahomes

129 TDs for Allen

 

50 INTs and fumbles for Mahomes

69 INTs and fumbles for Allen

 

So Josh had 5 more TDs and 19 more INTs and fumbles over that span.

Fumbles are not the same as INT's unless they're LOST.  Throwing that number out is misleading.

 

 

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

How about that

Notice how some of these folks equate a fumble that was NOT lost to an INT?  That's simply insane and shows how they bastardize stats to prove a point.

 

 

[Billz4ever]

16 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Some are homers but most are being objective and simply disagree with you.

 

And it's your opinion that what we're saying is "unreasonable and clearly lacks objectivity".  To me the idea that Allen & Mahomes should be compared as if they're on a level playing field is ludicrous on its face.

 

And what have I said that you consider "BS"? 

 

BTW I find it really odd that you would have an issue with anyone on 2BD believing that Allen is every bit as good as Mahomes.  Disagree, fine, but have an issue? Please. This is after all a Buffalo Bills message board.

 

 

 

 

 

Tell me what QB comparison you can make where both QBs are on a perfectly level playing field.  It doesn't happen.

 

What you're trying to do is simply boil it down to an argument that says if QB A had what QB B has, QB A would prove he's better.

 

Easy argument to make because it's impossible to prove since they can't swap teams.  Maybe Allen gets a better line and some more weapons and then demonstrates he is better than Mahomes.  But that's the whole point...he has to first prove it on the field.  You can't just make the claim he would be and it's instantly gospel truth.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Billz4ever

[BillsFan130]

40 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Totally agree with the use of the slot, but I don't think it's Crowder they missed as much.  He only had 3 catches on the season when he went down.

 

I think they missed Beasley more than anything.  Say what you want about him and him getting older, but Josh trusted him and was always the guy that could get open and get Josh out of a jam. 

 

That aspect of our offense from the slot all but completely disappeared this year.

Ya that’s a fair point and I definitely agree with you in regards to missing Beasley

[FireChans]

22 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I have said my preference after next season if we have another disappointing playoff exit is to hire Ben Johnson as head coach. One year with Detroit and he designed one of the most creative offenses I've ever seen, and got Jared Goff to perform at the best level of his career. My biggest fear is that we give McDermott too many chances and Ben Johnson goes on to become the next Kyle Shanahan with another franchise.

 

I think if the defense does play poorly in another early exit next year, I could see the end of the McD era. Which is a shame because he is a good guy and deserves all the credit for turning the team around from a cesspool by NFL standards.

 

Hope we win the SB for him tbh. But would love BJ.

[HappyDays]

58 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

But what each QB has to work with can be debated with any QB to QB comparison in the league. In the end, all we can go by is what they do on the field.

 

I'm not comparing us to other teams. I'm comparing us to other contenders. Of the real Super Bowl contenders, factoring in skill positions, OL, and coaching, Allen clearly had less to work with than the other QBs. If our defense actually played to the level of its heavy investments then it may have worked out just as well, but since they consistently fall apart in the playoffs this means Allen was playing with less from his supporting cast and coaching, and also had no defense capable of slowing down top offenses. Mahomes, Burrow, and Hurts all got more from their offense AND from their defense once the playoffs started.

 

We're past the point of debating MVP accolades. I don't care about that. I care about the Bills winning a Super Bowl. For that to happen they need to get Allen the kind of help that his peers on other contenders get. It's too late to get him better coaching so we'll just have to hope Dorsey figures it out next year. As far as skill positions and OL that needs to be Beane's primary focus this offseason.

[Billz4ever]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'm not comparing us to other teams. I'm comparing us to other contenders. Of the real Super Bowl contenders, factoring in skill positions, OL, and coaching, Allen clearly had less to work with than the other QBs. If our defense actually played to the level of its heavy investments then it may have worked out just as well, but since they consistently fall apart in the playoffs this means Allen was playing with less from his supporting cast and coaching, and also had no defense capable of slowing down top offenses. Mahomes, Burrow, and Hurts all got more from their offense AND from their defense once the playoffs started.

 

We're past the point of debating MVP accolades. I don't care about that. I care about the Bills winning a Super Bowl. For that to happen they need to get Allen the kind of help that his peers on other contenders get. It's too late to get him better coaching so we'll just have to hope Dorsey figures it out next year. As far as skill positions and OL that needs to be Beane's primary focus this offseason.

I agree with that, but that's getting a little off track with what the original debate was.

 

If you want to tell me KC has better coaching and OL than the Bills, you're not going to get any argument from me there.  

 

I disagreed with the contention that KC's skill positions are also a lot better than the Bills, which I see as a massive stretch and isn't really supported by the data. 

[Billl]

21 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Fumbles are not the same as INT's unless they're LOST.  Throwing that number out is misleading.

 

 

Notice how some of these folks equate a fumble that was NOT lost to an INT?  That's simply insane and shows how they bastardize stats to prove a point.

 

 

Josh led the NFL in interceptions thrown.  He also led the NFL in fumbles.  He also led the NFL in total turnovers.  

[NewEra]

48 minutes ago, Billl said:

 

And?  
2 playoff games- 3 catches 30 yards.  He’s definitely better than Gabe Davis though

[HappyDays]

10 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

I agree with that, but that's getting a little off track with what the original debate was.

 

It really isn't though. "Most valuable" by its definition has to factor in the team around the player. We all know it's really decided based on stats and usually goes to the QB of the #1 seed in one of the conferences. You could argue that the primary reason Mahomes had better stats than Allen and ended up with the #1 seed is NOT the talent discrepancy between the QBs, but instead the discrepancy between their supporting cast and their coaching. Football is the most context driven sport. It isn't like basketball or baseball where one great player can single handedly take a game over. Coaching also matters more than in other sports. QB can take over a game more than any other position obviously, but the result of any given play or game or season is about a lot more than the QB.

 

10 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

I disagreed with the contention that KC's skill positions are also a lot better than the Bills, which I see as a massive stretch and isn't really supported by the data. 

 

I don't think their skill position players are a lot better. If you had me compare it all, Chiefs have a slight edge in skill position talent, a large edge in OL talent, and a laughably enormous edge in offensive coaching.

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by HappyDays

[Billl]

8 minutes ago, NewEra said:

And?  
2 playoff games- 3 catches 30 yards.  He’s definitely better than Gabe Davis though

When the Chiefs signed him, TBD’s consensus opinion was that he sucked.  Suddenly he was a huge weapon all along and provides Mahomes some insurmountable advantage.

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

When the Chiefs signed him, TBD’s consensus opinion was that he sucked.  Suddenly he was a huge weapon all along and provides Mahomes some insurmountable advantage.

Yeah well, we were all rooting for KC's demise with the Tyreek departure. I get what you're saying but a couple homer threads aren't the proof you think it is.

[Billz4ever]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

It really isn't though. "Most valuable" by its definition has to factor in the team around the player. We all know it's really decided based on stats and usually goes to the QB of the #1 seed in one of the conferences. You could argue that the primary reason Mahomes had better stats than Allen and ended up with the #1 seed is NOT the talent discrepancy between the QBs, but instead the discrepancy between their supporting cast and their coaching. Football is the most context driven sport. It isn't like basketball or baseball where one great player can single handedly take a game over. Coaching also matters more than in other sports. QB can take over a game more than any other position obviously, but the result of any given play or game or season is about a lot more than the QB.

 

 

I don't think their skill position players are a lot better. If you had me compare it all, Chiefs have a slight edge in skill position talent, a large edge in OL talent, and a laughably enormous edge in offensive coaching.

 

You could argue that but it's a bad argument because it's completely based on speculation and a hypothetical situation.  

 

MVP voters aren't going to decide who wins based off of a "If QB A had what QB B does, he'd be the better guy" argument.

 

It's impossible to prove.  If Allen gets a revamped line and better weapons and overtakes Mahomes by his play on the field, then so be it, but he will have then actually proven it on the field.  It can't be based simply on what you think might happen.

 

The award is determined by what did happen, not by what you think would happen in an alternate universe.

[FireChans]

16 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

It really isn't though. "Most valuable" by its definition has to factor in the team around the player. We all know it's really decided based on stats and usually goes to the QB of the #1 seed in one of the conferences. You could argue that the primary reason Mahomes had better stats than Allen and ended up with the #1 seed is NOT the talent discrepancy between the QBs, but instead the discrepancy between their supporting cast and their coaching. Football is the most context driven sport. It isn't like basketball or baseball where one great player can single handedly take a game over. Coaching also matters more than in other sports. QB can take over a game more than any other position obviously, but the result of any given play or game or season is about a lot more than the QB.

 

 

I don't think their skill position players are a lot better. If you had me compare it all, Chiefs have a slight edge in skill position talent, a large edge in OL talent, and a laughably enormous edge in offensive coaching.

 

MVP has a lot of personal definitions, but the award usually goes to the best QB on the best team record wise with the best stats.  So Mahomes was obviously the MVP.

 

It's really just the 1st team All-Pro award.

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, Billl said:

When the Chiefs signed him, TBD’s consensus opinion was that he sucked.  Suddenly he was a huge weapon all along and provides Mahomes some insurmountable advantage.

Idk, I didn’t say that.  I don’t think he’s a huge weapon.  
 

There’s no doubt that he’d  be the Bills 2nd best WR.  While I haven’t read much of the board since the bengals game so I can’t speak for everyone, but the real problem lies with the overall talent level of the Bills WR room.  Other than Diggs, everyone else is just a guy. Davis may get paid like he’s more than that.  He can thank Josh Allen, because he’s one of the worst WR2 in the league.  
 

Mahomes has one HUGE advantage. Kelce and Diggs cancel each other out as all pro targets (even though Kelce is superior).  Andy Reid is a massive advantage.  A hall of fame play caller vs a rookie play caller.  Coaching cannot be overstated. In our case, we’ve been completely out coached in 3 straight season ending losses.  

[Billl]

12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yeah well, we were all rooting for KC's demise with the Tyreek departure. I get what you're saying but a couple homer threads aren't the proof you think it is.

It’s not intended to be proof of anything other than the ever-changing target that exists solely to discount Mahomes’s accomplishments while making excuses for Josh.

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said:

But I have a hard time believing that Dorsey is consistently telling Allen to go long when shorter safer options are available on second and third downs.

 

No I think the offense was designed high to low most of the time. It felt like Dorsey read somewhere that the team with more explosive plays tends to win the game and used that single data point to construct his offense. Very rarely did I see designed reads to Cook/Hines or Knox. To be fair Allen's elbow injury may have made it more difficult to rely on shorter throws down the stretch. It was noticeable after the injury that he was missing short and intermediate passes which I know he can hit in his sleep. Go back and watch the Lions game, it is extremely obvious. And we now know that that injury was more significant than the Bills let on and persisted through the whole season. Allen has spent years refining his mechanics to hit some of those shorter throws which don't come naturally to him, and suddenly had to change those mechanics halfway through a season. We like to think of our favorite football players as gods but human beings are affected by things like that whether they're open about it or not.

[FireChans]

15 minutes ago, Billl said:

It’s not intended to be proof of anything other than the ever-changing target that exists solely to discount Mahomes’s accomplishments while making excuses for Josh.

Brother, the OP tried to tell us Tyrod Taylor could make the HoF and that EJ just needed more time.

 

Downplaying Mahomes and uplifting Josh Allen is tame.

[Billz4ever]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

No I think the offense was designed high to low most of the time. It felt like Dorsey read somewhere that the team with more explosive plays tends to win the game and used that single data point to construct his offense. Very rarely did I see designed reads to Cook/Hines or Knox. To be fair Allen's elbow injury may have made it more difficult to rely on shorter throws down the stretch. It was noticeable after the injury that he was missing short and intermediate passes which I know he can hit in his sleep. Go back and watch the Lions game, it is extremely obvious. And we now know that that injury was more significant than the Bills let on and persisted through the whole season. Allen has spent years refining his mechanics to hit some of those shorter throws which don't come naturally to him, and suddenly had to change those mechanics halfway through a season. We like to think of our favorite football players as gods but human beings are affected by things like that whether they're open about it or not.

Yep, this offense couldn't sell a screen to save their lives even on the very few times they actually attempted one.  Really no attempt to incorporate Cook or Hines into the passing game outside of an outlet on a checkdown.  The short game had all but disappeared by the end of the season.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Meatloaf63]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

No I think the offense was designed high to low most of the time. It felt like Dorsey read somewhere that the team with more explosive plays tends to win the game and used that single data point to construct his offense. Very rarely did I see designed reads to Cook/Hines or Knox. To be fair Allen's elbow injury may have made it more difficult to rely on shorter throws down the stretch. It was noticeable after the injury that he was missing short and intermediate passes which I know he can hit in his sleep. Go back and watch the Lions game, it is extremely obvious. And we now know that that injury was more significant than the Bills let on and persisted through the whole season. Allen has spent years refining his mechanics to hit some of those shorter throws which don't come naturally to him, and suddenly had to change those mechanics halfway through a season. We like to think of our favorite football players as gods but human beings are affected by things like that whether they're open about it or not.

The thing is I watched the Rams and Titans game today, the philosophy or execution definitely changed as the season went on. We started short to medium and then went long but not often, because of this it was usually open. Some of it was how we were being defended., but the underneath stuff was there the whole season.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

It’s not intended to be proof of anything other than the ever-changing target that exists solely to discount Mahomes’s accomplishments while making excuses for Josh.

You mean some fans on a team message board would be biased towards the QB that will likely be best player in team history? Say it ain’t so!!!

 

stop trolling.  That’s what you’re doing now. You do a good job on toeing the line most of the time.  Not this time.  Stop it.

[HappyDays]

What are our thoughts after the Super Bowl? Nothing special from Mahomes today, just standing back with zero pressure and tossing the ball to completely wide open targets. We've seen him in a Super Bowl with the kind of OL Allen had this past season. It didn't end well. I stand by my claim that Allen is more valuable to his offense than any other player in the league.

[The Wiz]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

What are our thoughts after the Super Bowl? Nothing special from Mahomes today, just standing back with zero pressure and tossing the ball to completely wide open targets. We've seen him in a Super Bowl with the kind of OL Allen had this past season. It didn't end well. I stand by my claim that Allen is more valuable to his offense than any other player in the league.

Until the front office invests in offensive talent on the o line and wrs, we will never know.

 

Could end up being the next Matt Stafford, career wise anyways.  All the talent and not with any around him. Oh and Stafford had Megatron like we have diggs.

Edited February 13, 2023 by The Wiz

[ChrisWatson#21]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

What are our thoughts after the Super Bowl? Nothing special from Mahomes today, just standing back with zero pressure and tossing the ball to completely wide open targets. We've seen him in a Super Bowl with the kind of OL Allen had this past season. It didn't end well. I stand by my claim that Allen is more valuable to his offense than any other player in the league.

And there I was thinking winning the super bowl was something special.  Thanks for opening my eyes my guy👍🏼

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, ChrisWatson#21 said:

And there I was thinking winning the super bowl was something special.

 

It is. Carl Cheffer's parents must be so proud.

[UKBillFan]

39 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

What are our thoughts after the Super Bowl? Nothing special from Mahomes today, just standing back with zero pressure and tossing the ball to completely wide open targets. We've seen him in a Super Bowl with the kind of OL Allen had this past season. It didn't end well. I stand by my claim that Allen is more valuable to his offense than any other player in the league.

The NFL is a team game, dependent on the quality of the coaches and play calling. Having a class QB is important, but not key. Look how far the 49ers went with Purdy, and they would have pushed the Eagles more than they did had he not picked up an injury. 
 

Josh is, physically, the best QB in the league for me but he needs support on the mental side of the game, whilst a better O Line and weapons at his disposal. Put him in the place of Mahomes tonight and the Chiefs would have still won. Put him in the place of Hurts and I think the Eagles may have won. Their coaching calls are what is superior to the Bills at the moment. I’m hopeful Dorsey may grow as a coordinator. McDermott and Frasier less so.

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, UKBillFan said:

Put him in the place of Mahomes tonight and the Chiefs would have still won.

 

For sure. That pass protection and so many schemed up wide open throws, and he only needs 182 passing yards? Yeah I think Allen could find a way to match that production. Whereas if Allen passed for 182 yards against the Eagles as a Bill we would lose the game by at least two scores. This is what I've been saying. Allen has to play at the top of his game and make several magical plays for us to have a chance against other good teams. The Chiefs score 38 points against a Super Bowl caliber team without Mahomes breaking a sweat. Just because your QB is great doesn't mean you're not allowed to make it easy for him.

[Meatloaf63]

16 hours ago, Billl said:

When the Chiefs signed him, TBD’s consensus opinion was that he sucked.  Suddenly he was a huge weapon all along and provides Mahomes some insurmountable advantage.

That was never a consensus and just you bending the argument to support your misguided view. He’s not the standout talent of Hill just another piece of the puzzle. 7 catches on 9 targets most for first downs. When has Gabe or McKenzie caught 7 of 9 targets? Mahomes line is what gives him the insurmountable advantage along with a very competent receiving corps. Only a fool couldn’t understand that.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Meatloaf63