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Cutting Star Lotulelei- why not ask him to retire?


Commish
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1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I seriously doubt a trade could happen.  My thinking is why keep him around eating reps in camp that another player could get

the experience from.  

 

For all those who say he is worth the money this year I look at is this way.

He has a $9.23M hit this year.  If he plays out the year the Bills owe him $2.6M next year in signing bonus.

That's in essence about $12M in cost for his part time play this year.

Sometimes you buy stock in a company that turned bad.  Just cut your losses.

 

The 2.6M next year is there no matter what.  His cap hit if you cut him is the bonuses and the guaranteed base salary.  Float it over 2 years and the dead money is still there next year.  Do you want to eat up 12M in cap total for him to play, or spread 7.7 across 2 years for him to be gone.

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17 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Yes but then taking on a $7.7 cap hit this year.    Is it worth when next years cap is expanding much more so a $2.6 mil hit is a much lower percentage of the total cap.  I think if they do sign J Phillips, (maybe was already confirmed and I didn't see the post yet) good chance he's gone in the final cut downs. 

 

Basically if they cut him now, they're saving $1.5 mil.  What if a couple of DT's get hurt in training camp or pre-season?  Keep him around for now, see how camp goes if no big injuries then let him go in September.  If you let Star go now and then have injuries, not likely they will find a player as good as he is basically for $1.5 mil which is the saving by cutting him now.  As far as reps for other players go, if the team does intend to cut him in September, they can keep him around but keep him mainly on the sideline and give him minimal reps and practice time.

 

All your counterpoints have merit.  Looks like Phillips has signed so that does change Star's position.

I can (and did last year) feel the same as you do about Star.  I'm just to the point where I feel it needs to end.

If OBD feels the way you do I will accept it and understand their reasoning.

 

But that being said, if there is a good chance they will cut him after camp I surely wouldn't let him skate through the summer.

If he wants to keep playing he has to show that.  His effort needs to be what any other DL player is showing.  If he can't keep up

he takes snaps with the 3rd team.

 

My only other point is this.  It is well proven that single year cap numbers can be moved around.  His $1.5 and next years $2.6 can

be worked out to a replacement worth $4.1.  I think that is what Phillips is here for.  It may not be a total wash but it's close enough.

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

 

The 2.6M next year is there no matter what.  His cap hit if you cut him is the bonuses and the guaranteed base salary.  Float it over 2 years and the dead money is still there next year.  Do you want to eat up 12M in cap total for him to play, or spread 7.7 across 2 years for him to be gone.

 

I want to spread it over 2 years and for him to be gone.  Cut him now and move the 2.6 in June.

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35 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Yes but then taking on a $7.7 cap hit this year.    Is it worth when next years cap is expanding much more so a $2.6 mil hit is a much lower percentage of the total cap.  I think if they do sign J Phillips, (maybe was already confirmed and I didn't see the post yet) good chance he's gone in the final cut downs. 

 

Basically if they cut him now, they're saving $1.5 mil.  What if a couple of DT's get hurt in training camp or pre-season?  Keep him around for now, see how camp goes if no big injuries then let him go in September.  If you let Star go now and then have injuries, not likely they will find a player as good as he is basically for $1.5 mil which is the saving by cutting him now.  As far as reps for other players go, if the team does intend to cut him in September, they can keep him around but keep him mainly on the sideline and give him minimal reps and practice time.

 

He did start off the 2021 season playing well till Covid hit him

 

 

 

I can think of 9.2 million reason why a team wouldn't want to trade for him, his salary.  The Bills may have to throw in a 2nd or a 3rd to get someone with cap space to take on that salary.  Throw in Beasley, now a team is taking on close to $16 mil in salary.  Trades to dump players have to be sweet deals for the team taking on the player or the player must still be wort hat least close to the contract value.

 

I recall the Texans trading Osweiler and his $16 mil contract along with a 2nd & a 6th round pick to Cleveland for 4th rounder who then cut him.

 

The Colts have 41 mil in cap space and need WR and DL help.  Osweiler is different, he did not play at all for 16 mil against their cap.  Star and Beasley are both capable players who have helped their team get to the playoffs last year.   The Colts fell short and could use them both.   Hard to pull off, maybe, but Bean could do it.  Or maybe Schoen could have

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4 minutes ago, buffalostu2 said:

The Colts have 41 mil in cap space and need WR and DL help.  Osweiler is different, he did not play at all for 16 mil against their cap.  Star and Beasley are both capable players who have helped their team get to the playoffs last year.   The Colts fell short and could use them both.   Hard to pull off, maybe, but Bean could do it.  Or maybe Schoen could have

 

I'm sure Beane has put it out there , is anyone interested in trading for Star, let us know.  Maybe if they take back $2 to 3 mil in salary and throw in a 6th rounder could get a taker.  Would then still save them money

 

But then the other side of it is, do they have a true 1 technique backup besides Jones.  Not really IMO unless they draft one!  That was one of the problems in 2020 when Star sat out no one able to fill that role.  We're OK as long as Jones stays healthy.  Settle could play some, but think there'd be a drop off

 

I think Star could be one of the last players cut, go through training camp and pre-season, if no one gets hurt long term, then they cut him.  Or I'm sure if they could trade him they would, but trades in the NFL don't happen to much for under performing players.

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2 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

Still puzzling he's on the roster but even more puzzling that his deal was restructered in a way that didn't give us the option to dump him right now without cap ramifications.

 

Either way would be shocked if he's on this roster heading into camp.

Star is our 2nd best DT on the roster.

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If Lotulelei is not in Buffalo's plans, Beane will look at all his options.  Obviously, the most desirable would be to trade him for a low draft pick.  There is probably little to no market for him, so that likely won't work.  He'll the approach him after June 1 and tell him he's not in the Bills plans.  He can either retire or get cut.  It would be up to Star which happens.

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2 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Team and players come to retirement agreements.  My point is Star doesn't have to give money back.

An agreement would be he keeps his $5.2M he already got in signing bonus.

He would just retire and not show up to camp and give up his 2022 Base Salary guarantee of $2.5M.

As far as the $2.5M he could ask the Bills to split it with him.

Well paid team players have done things like this in the past.

 

Of course he can say no.  My real point is if they are going to cut him after camp just cut him now.


 

The thing is - the Bills get no relief cutting him now versus later.  The can designate him a post June 1st, but as he does not have a bonus coming up - there is no rush.

 

Beasley had a bonus due - hence the need to cut him before that.

 

They know what is up with Star.  I think if he wanted to play - they would have already cut him and designated it post June 1st and let him move on.  I think they know he is done and so there is no rush as the money is limited and really only valuable after June 1st.

 

 

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Lotulelei and Jordan Phillips are very good friends, and played great together in Phillips one season in Buffalo.  Perhaps they can reach that level again this year?

 

I realize that Star has had some availability issues, but I do think the defense was better when he was in the lineup.  This just seems like one of those dead horses that fans always seem to have on hand... if McDermott/Beane feel like his time should come to an end in Buffalo, they will make it happen.  Otherwise, why sweat it?

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4 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

All your counterpoints have merit.  Looks like Phillips has signed so that does change Star's position.

I can (and did last year) feel the same as you do about Star.  I'm just to the point where I feel it needs to end.

If OBD feels the way you do I will accept it and understand their reasoning.

 

But that being said, if there is a good chance they will cut him after camp I surely wouldn't let him skate through the summer.

If he wants to keep playing he has to show that.  His effort needs to be what any other DL player is showing.  If he can't keep up

he takes snaps with the 3rd team.

 

My only other point is this.  It is well proven that single year cap numbers can be moved around.  His $1.5 and next years $2.6 can

be worked out to a replacement worth $4.1.  I think that is what Phillips is here for.  It may not be a total wash but it's close enough.

 

I want to spread it over 2 years and for him to be gone.  Cut him now and move the 2.6 in June.


 

This doesn’t make any sense.  There is a huge amount of time between now and camp.  
 

They will make the cut when ever they want - they can do it now and designate it post June 1st or wait until after June 1st to cut him.

 

Star isn’t going to retire and miss out on the money owed to him, but I suspect both he and the Bills know he is done.  
 

There just is not a need to cut him now because you only free up a small amount - even if you designate him a post June 1st - you only get 1 to 1.5 million now or the most post June 1st.

 

I think basically Star is the rookie signing money.  Come June 1st he gets cut and then officially retires with his money and the Bills recoup 4.5 million to spend on rookies.

 

He is not taking snaps or going to camp - he is done.

 

 

Edited by Rochesterfan
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16 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

He is not taking snaps or going to camp - he is done.

 

I just said what I think.  I'm getting a lot of flack for it and I'm only replying to you but also for anyone else.  Here it goes.

This board is all over the place from cutting him to having him play out the rest of his contract.  

 

For years I defended Star (and got the business from a lot of posters), then after he took off in 2020, I was neutral on his future.

After last year I thought he should be done with and end his career in Buffalo.  Situations changed and my thoughts changed with them.

 

If OBD is of the opinion that they are done with him then I see no reason to keep him on the roster.  Use the $1.5M to help sign the

rookies and get the rest in June.  Also, I said if OBD wants to keep him through the summer I can live with that.  My final replies were

to the effect that if he does go to camp, he shouldn't get special treatment.  He would have to put in the effort just like anyone else

of get moved down to the 3rd string.  I do believe keeping him as a rotational DT for what will in essence be $12M is my least

favorite choice.

 

That's about all I got to say.  I probably should've kept my thoughts to myself.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I just said what I think.  I'm getting a lot of flack for it and I'm only replying to you but also for anyone else.  Here it goes.

This board is all over the place from cutting him to having him play out the rest of his contract.  

 

For years I defended Star (and got the business from a lot of posters), then after he took off in 2020, I was neutral on his future.

After last year I thought he should be done with and end his career in Buffalo.  Situations changed and my thoughts changed with them.

 

If OBD is of the opinion that they are done with him then I see no reason to keep him on the roster.  Use the $1.5M to help sign the

rookies and get the rest in June.  Also, I said if OBD wants to keep him through the summer I can live with that.  My final replies were

to the effect that if he does go to camp, he shouldn't get special treatment.  He would have to put in the effort just like anyone else

of get moved down to the 3rd string.  I do believe keeping him as a rotational DT for what will in essence be $12M is my least

favorite choice.

 

That's about all I got to say.  I probably should've kept my thoughts to myself.

 

 

Speak your mind, my friend! This is a message board, 75% of the content is opinion.

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2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

This doesn’t make any sense.  There is a huge amount of time between now and camp.  
 

They will make the cut when ever they want - they can do it now and designate it post June 1st or wait until after June 1st to cut him.

 

Star isn’t going to retire and miss out on the money owed to him, but I suspect both he and the Bills know he is done.  
 

There just is not a need to cut him now because you only free up a small amount - even if you designate him a post June 1st - you only get 1 to 1.5 million now and the rest comes post June 1st.

 

That's not correct.  If Star is designated a post-June 1 cut, we get no cap relief now and the rest post June 1 (including the 1.5M we would get if we cut him today)

His roster bonus is all per-game, nothing "start of league year"

I believe the workout bonus only applies to mandatory workouts, starting in June

 

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

I think basically Star is the rookie signing money.  Come June 1st he gets cut and then officially retires with his money and the Bills recoup 4.5 million to spend on rookies.

 

He is not taking snaps or going to camp - he is done.

 

Why do so many think Star is "done"?  Has he said so? 

 

I have thought that the Bills might see him as the rookie signing money.  Basically, get through FA and the draft, assess our position, and cut him if we don't feel we need him.

 

1 hour ago, RichRiderBills said:

Star was actually pretty good down the stretch when he got out there.

 

I'm pretty sure retirement does not save a team from the cap hit. 

 

It's a point of contention.  In theory, the team can ask him to return this year and next year's amortized signing bonus, and refuse to pay his guaranteed salary.  In practice, it's apparently difficult to get the signing bonus back.

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26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That's not correct.  If Star is designated a post-June 1 cut, we get no cap relief now and the rest post June 1 (including the 1.5M we would get if we cut him today)

His roster bonus is all per-game, nothing "start of league year"

I believe the workout bonus only applies to mandatory workouts, starting in June

 

 

Why do so many think Star is "done"?  Has he said so? 

 

I have thought that the Bills might see him as the rookie signing money.  Basically, get through FA and the draft, assess our position, and cut him if we don't feel we need him.

 

 

It's a point of contention.  In theory, the team can ask him to return this year and next year's amortized signing bonus, and refuse to pay his guaranteed salary.  In practice, it's apparently difficult to get the signing bonus back.


 

Correct - you could cut him now and get 1.5 or designate/wait post June 1st and save more - you can’t do both.  That is why I said there is no rush.  (I reread my post and had merged/muddled my thoughts)

 

I only think he is done because all of the guys like Sal have basically said - follow the signings - they have gone out and signed 3 guys to DT position and had Oliver and 2 depth guys in Bryant and Ankou already on the roster.  
 

Even if Phillips had not come free - they were looking at Hicks - so it seemed like the plan was 3 DTs and Oliver - which makes me believe they are planning around Star not being available. 

 

 

2 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I just said what I think.  I'm getting a lot of flack for it and I'm only replying to you but also for anyone else.  Here it goes.

This board is all over the place from cutting him to having him play out the rest of his contract.  

 

For years I defended Star (and got the business from a lot of posters), then after he took off in 2020, I was neutral on his future.

After last year I thought he should be done with and end his career in Buffalo.  Situations changed and my thoughts changed with them.

 

If OBD is of the opinion that they are done with him then I see no reason to keep him on the roster.  Use the $1.5M to help sign the

rookies and get the rest in June.  Also, I said if OBD wants to keep him through the summer I can live with that.  My final replies were

to the effect that if he does go to camp, he shouldn't get special treatment.  He would have to put in the effort just like anyone else

of get moved down to the 3rd string.  I do believe keeping him as a rotational DT for what will in essence be $12M is my least

favorite choice.

 

That's about all I got to say.  I probably should've kept my thoughts to myself.

 

 


 

No you are fine - I just think if he is getting cut - it is post June 1st and they have no reason to rush it.  Things might change and he decides to retire and you can come to an agreement and recoup a bit more.  
 

There are lots of reasons to wait and as long as no bonuses are coming due - few reasons to do it now.

 

 

Edited by Rochesterfan
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26 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

I only think he is done because all of the guys like Sal have basically said - follow the signings - they have gone out and signed 3 guys to DT position and had Oliver and 2 depth guys in Bryant and Ankou already on the roster.  

 

Even if Phillips had not come free - they were looking at Hicks - so it seemed like the plan was 3 DTs and Oliver - which makes me believe they are planning around Star not being available.

 

The thing is, the roster looks like this at present:

 

Bills DT Room 3/17
1T DT 3T DT
Jones Oliver
Lotulelei Phillips
(Settle may play there some) Settle
   

 

 

I'm not persuaded they view Jones and Settle as their 1TDT rotation, and also not persuaded that would be a good idea if they do

Oliver can play 1T DT but it's a waste of his best skills

Phillips either can't or won't.  It was a Bad Plan to try him there, even worse than putting Butler there - Butler eventually 'cowboy'd up' and did it OK in small doses

I understand the perception - Phillips is a Big Big Man - but the reality is, at least last time he was here it wasn't his Gig

 

At the bottom I agree with you "there are a lot of reasons to wait and as long as no bonuses are coming due (there aren't any), no reason to do it now"

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The thing is, the roster looks like this at present:

 

Bills DT Room 3/17
1T DT 3T DT
Jones Oliver
Lotulelei Phillips
(Settle may play there some) Settle
   

 

 

I'm not persuaded they view Jones and Settle as their 1TDT rotation, and also not persuaded that would be a good idea if they do

Oliver can play 1T DT but it's a waste of his best skills

Phillips either can't or won't.  It was a Bad Plan to try him there, even worse than putting Butler there - Butler eventually 'cowboy'd up' and did it OK in small doses

I understand the perception - Phillips is a Big Big Man - but the reality is, at least last time he was here it wasn't his Gig

 

At the bottom I agree with you "there are a lot of reasons to wait and as long as no bonuses are coming due (there aren't any), no reason to do it now"

 

 

 

 


 

Cover 1 was talking about this yesterday.  They basically left Star out when talking big guys.  They think they were doing mainly a 3 man rotation with Jones and Oliver as starters and Settle as a relief for both.  
 

At that time the Phillips signing was still a rumor - so they felt Bryant and Ankou both filled in as 1TDT and either 1 could provide minimal depth.  I think Phillips signing becomes another sign that they are moving on  because they now have 6 DTs plus Star.  
 

I know positions matter, but they felt strongly that Jones was the 1TDT the team wants and Settle can do that for stretches as needed helping to free up Oliver.

 

I don’t know, but when you hear basically guys like Sal and Cover 1 talking about the DT and basically Star is not even mentioned in the rotation conversation - I think they are reading the tea leaves in a similar way.  
 

 

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18 hours ago, Commish said:

If we cut Star there's a cap hit and he doesn't get paid - if he retires there's no cap hit and he doesn't get paid. Doubt that he really wants to go join another team and keep playing, and I feel like he owes Beane a favor.  What am I missing?

We restructured him prior to 2020 guaranteeing his next 2 years base salary.  As he opted out in 2020 that year did not count.  So he has a cap hit of $7.7mm made up of $5.1mm guaranteed base and $2.6mm prorated signing bonus.  This is the predicament. 

 

Per NFLPA agreement 

When a player is released (or retires), the team is relieved of having the pay the player's base salary (P5) and any Roster Bonus that may become due after that, but still will need to account for any Signing or Option Bonus prorations that haven't yet counted against the Salary Cap.

 

Edited by freddyjj
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This guy.  Every single offseason he somehow manages to hold the team over a barrel.  Every.  Single.  Offseason. 
 

I mean they have nobody but themselves to blame for giving him that ridiculous deal but still - Star is one of the most self-centered athletes I’ve ever witnessed.

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