Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[TSOL]

8 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

Ain't that America... 

[Tiberius]

These will help to bog down the Russian offensive and cripple their logistics. 

 

 

[cle23]

5 hours ago, TSOL said:

 

 

You know the plan is to deplete our weapons and fuel in Ukraine before China hits Taiwan, right? 

 

Do you know how much fuel those tanks take? Now, are we giving them the fuel too? Or just the tanks? 

 

China can't take Taiwan without killing themselves.  If the world sanctions China like they did Russia, hundreds of millions of people will die in China.  And the Chinese know it.  They can't feed themselves, and they can't create anywhere near enough energy on their own.

 

How do you know all these world secrets anyway?

[B-Man]

THESE are our allies  ??

 

 

. Because nothing says you're on the righteous side of history like making those who oppose your viewpoints wear a scarlet letter. 

 

(Maybe, just maybe, this isn't black and white - isn't just good guys versus bad guys.

 

Maybe, just maybe, it's reality where the truth is always in the middle).

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

THESE are our allies  ??

 

 

. Because nothing says you're on the righteous side of history like making those who oppose your viewpoints wear a scarlet letter. 

 

(Maybe, just maybe, this isn't black and white - isn't just good guys versus bad guys.

 

Maybe, just maybe, it's reality where the truth is always in the middle).

 

Just because you support Ukraines fight here does not mean you support everything about the country.   It'd mostly a corrupt crap hole.  But they are trying to get away from the Russian model.  They want to be part of the West.  It's not easy to change when a superpower constantly f's with you.  

 

If we step aside what country is next?  Russia's army is a joke but they will keep sending people through the meat grinder.  

[Tiberius]

10 hours ago, B-Man said:

THESE are our allies  ??

 

 

. Because nothing says you're on the righteous side of history like making those who oppose your viewpoints wear a scarlet letter. 

 

(Maybe, just maybe, this isn't black and white - isn't just good guys versus bad guys.

 

Maybe, just maybe, it's reality where the truth is always in the middle).

 

 I love the USA even though its got a knot head like you saying stupid things. 

 

Your argument is just beneath stupid 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

A contingent of military officials is quietly pushing the Pentagon to approve sending F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine to help the country defend itself from Russian missile and drone attacks, according to three people with knowledge of the discussions.

Ukraine has kept American-made F-16s on its weapons wish list since the Russian invasion last year. But Washington and Kyiv have viewed artillery, armor and ground-based air defense systems as more urgent needs as Ukraine seeks to protect civilian infrastructure and claw back ground occupied by Russian forces.

Despite the age of Ukraine’s jets, Kyiv’s integrated air defenses have kept Russia from dominating its skies since the Feb. 24 invasion.

But now, officials are concerned that Ukraine is running out of missiles to protect its skies. Once its arsenal is depleted, Russia’s advanced fighter jets will be able to move in and Kyiv “will not be able to compete,” said the DoD official involved in the discussions.

 

 

Modern fighter jets could be one solution to this problem, argues a group of military officials in the Pentagon and elsewhere. F-16s carry air-to-air missiles that can shoot down incoming missiles and drones. And unlike the Patriots and National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems the West is currently sending, fighter jets can move around an area quickly to protect different targets.

“If they get [F-16] Vipers and they have an active air-to-air missile with the radar the F-16 currently has with some electronic protection, now it’s an even game,” the DoD official said.

 

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/28/pentagon-send-f-16s-ukraine-00080045

[reddogblitz]

12 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

“If they get [F-16] Vipers and they have an active air-to-air missile with the radar the F-16 currently has with some electronic protection, now it’s an even game,” the DoD official said.

 

Good. This is exactly what we want. An even "game" so it will last a long time and military industrial complex can sell them a lot of bombs.

 

What's good for General Dynamics is good for America.

[B-Man]

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Good. This is exactly what we want. An even "game" so it will last a long time and military industrial complex can sell them a lot of bombs.

 

What's good for General Dynamics is good for America.

 

and many more will die.

 

 

But as Tibsy says, you know, now its an "even game"

 

 

 

 

ITS NOT A GAME !

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by B-Man

[Coffeesforclosers]

35 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

A contingent of military officials is quietly pushing the Pentagon to approve sending F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine to help the country defend itself from Russian missile and drone attacks, according to three people with knowledge of the discussions.

Ukraine has kept American-made F-16s on its weapons wish list since the Russian invasion last year. But Washington and Kyiv have viewed artillery, armor and ground-based air defense systems as more urgent needs as Ukraine seeks to protect civilian infrastructure and claw back ground occupied by Russian forces.

Despite the age of Ukraine’s jets, Kyiv’s integrated air defenses have kept Russia from dominating its skies since the Feb. 24 invasion.

But now, officials are concerned that Ukraine is running out of missiles to protect its skies. Once its arsenal is depleted, Russia’s advanced fighter jets will be able to move in and Kyiv “will not be able to compete,” said the DoD official involved in the discussions.

 

 

Modern fighter jets could be one solution to this problem, argues a group of military officials in the Pentagon and elsewhere. F-16s carry air-to-air missiles that can shoot down incoming missiles and drones. And unlike the Patriots and National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems the West is currently sending, fighter jets can move around an area quickly to protect different targets.

“If they get [F-16] Vipers and they have an active air-to-air missile with the radar the F-16 currently has with some electronic protection, now it’s an even game,” the DoD official said.

 

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/28/pentagon-send-f-16s-ukraine-00080045

 

Eh, that's a big ask. At least F-16s are a proven design with working assembly lines.  But if their air defense network is running short on missiles, then they need anti-aircraft assets that can be acquired maintained and replaced reliably.

 

If they can get F-16s up and running, more power to them. Ukraine's been very adaptable and creative.  But again that's a tall order.  

[Tiberius]

13 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Eh, that's a big ask. At least F-16s are a proven design with working assembly lines.  But if their air defense network is running short on missiles, then they need anti-aircraft assets that can be acquired maintained and replaced reliably.

 

If they can get F-16s up and running, more power to them. Ukraine's been very adaptable and creative.  But again that's a tall order.  

I was interested in what they wanted them for. Seems to me drones would be easier to learn and use. I had not thought of it as an anti-missile platform. If that really is the case, then yes, as you say, more power to them 

14 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Good. This is exactly what we want. An even "game" so it will last a long time and military industrial complex can sell them a lot of bombs.

 

What's good for General Dynamics is good for America.

Freedom isn't free 

14 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

 

and many more will die.

 

 

But as Tibsy says, you know, now its an "even game"

 

 

 

 

ITS NOT A GAME !

 

 

It sure isn't, and that's why we should keep supplying weapons for this free people to defend themselves 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

How many have they estimated to be killed so far?  100K russians?  100K ukranian soldiers?  30 K civilians?  

 

you know what would really help slowing those numbers?  More and advanced weapons to that region.

 

 

Notice how they used to constantly report these numbers but is harder and harder to come by anymore.

 

 

[reddogblitz]

4 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Freedom isn't free 

 

Thanks W.

[sherpa]

5 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

I was interested in what they wanted them for. Seems to me drones would be easier to learn and use. I had not thought of it as an anti-missile platform. If that really is the case, then yes, as you say, more power to them 

 

 

 

You've lost me here.

How is the F-16 an "anti missile platform?"

[All_Pro_Bills]

18 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Eh, that's a big ask. At least F-16s are a proven design with working assembly lines.  But if their air defense network is running short on missiles, then they need anti-aircraft assets that can be acquired maintained and replaced reliably.

 

If they can get F-16s up and running, more power to them. Ukraine's been very adaptable and creative.  But again that's a tall order.  

There are a lot of issues here.  Like how many "spare" F-16's are just laying around?  Will providing planes take away from operational readiness elsewhere?  Where and what are the risks?  What's the capacity to build new aircraft if necessary?  Is there sufficient materials on hand or is there procurement?  What about parts and maintenance costs and material?  They can't wave a magic wand and poof, F-16's appear and with trained pilots out of thin air.  There's a lot of details to work out,  Maybe somebody has done that already?  But I for sure can't say.  

 

And while I'm no authority on training fighter pilots but from what I can find it might take a minimum of 9 months to certify trained F-16 pilots.  Maybe less in a crunch or with veteran pilots but most likely there's a significant amount of time between when planes might be provided and when they can become operational.  And not even discussing training and staffing ground support and maintenance.  So from today you might be looking at November to get squadrons airborne.  I don't think its possible to predict what the situation on the ground will be then.   

[Tiberius]

19 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

You've lost me here.

How is the F-16 an "anti missile platform?"

That's what Ukraine is arguing they need them for, which I admit had me surprised, also 

[sherpa]

33 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

That's what Ukraine is arguing they need them for, which I admit had me surprised, also 

 

I am not interested in what Ukraine is suggesting.

I am interested in how they will be used as an anti missile platform.

I am also interested in how it is a good idea to use them on unimproved, Soviet/Russia grid pattern runways, which they are not designed to operate on, and how they will handle the hydrazine issue, peculiar to the F-16.

 

The Swedish Gripen is a much better alternative.

[aristocrat]

 

[reddogblitz]

35 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

 

 

How could/did the US block an agreement between 2 sovereign countries?

[Tiberius]

That's right. Hitler loved the isolationists. If America had shown leadership in the 30's Hitler would have been deterred 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

11 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

How could/did the US block an agreement between 2 sovereign countries?

By sending Boris Johnson to deliver the message to Zelensky that if he attempts to make a deal with the Russian they'll kill him. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

That's right. Hitler loved the isolationists. If America had shown leadership in the 30's Hitler would have been deterred 

 

 

Context.  As you appear to be a history buff, you're well aware the world was in the throes of the Great Depression and the US was in no position, socially, economically, or militarily to involve the country in the affairs of other countries.  Most Americans understanding the country faced with problems at home, saw no need or reason to intervene.  They weren't isolationist but rather people with their own problems that took priority.

 

Also, and most important, before WW2 the US spent about 1% of GDP on defense and ranked 17th in terms of military size.  Facts are that America, for all its potential, wasn't a world military leader in the 1930's and people making this argument are projected current US power to act onto the 1930's era where it simply did not exist.  

[Tiberius]

7 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Context.  As you appear to be a history buff, you're well aware the world was in the throes of the Great Depression and the US was in no position, socially, economically, or militarily to involve the country in the affairs of other countries.  Most Americans understanding the country faced with problems at home, saw no need or reason to intervene.  They weren't isolationist but rather people with their own problems that took priority.

 

Also, and most important, before WW2 the US spent about 1% of GDP on defense and ranked 17th in terms of military size.  Facts are that America, for all its potential, wasn't a world military leader in the 1930's and people making this argument are projected current US power to act onto the 1930's era where it simply did not exist.  

But we were isolationist in the prosperous 20's as well. That was just a mistake. Had they taken efforts at some form of collective security, things would have turned out differently, but that was a hard lesson learned. It happened, all we can do is not repeat the mistake

 

Conversely, we have to pick and choose carefully our foreign priorities. Vietnam and Iraq were mistake going in the other direction 

17 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

I am not interested in what Ukraine is suggesting.

I am interested in how they will be used as an anti missile platform.

I am also interested in how it is a good idea to use them on unimproved, Soviet/Russia grid pattern runways, which they are not designed to operate on, and how they will handle the hydrazine issue, peculiar to the F-16.

 

The Swedish Gripen is a much better alternative.

Good questions. I was just throwing it out there, not advocating for or against them, wondering how they would be used and the only answer I found was as anti-missile platforms. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

But we were isolationist in the prosperous 20's as well. That was just a mistake. Had they taken efforts at some form of collective security, things would have turned out differently, but that was a hard lesson learned. It happened, all we can do is not repeat the mistake

All I can say is hindsight is 20/20 and we're critiquing people for a lack of action when they were not inclined to perceive or anticipate any action was necessary.

 

I also think the preemptive strike to prevent the next Hitler from taking power theory is a risky speculative bet based on the operating assumption that you can predict with great precision and accuracy what the future holds.  And that you can predict with certainty that you're action will prevent some catastrophic outcome in some future time and replace it with a good outcome.  A future where there are potentially thousands and thousands of variables almost none of which you can control that might impact the outcome.  Ultimately you can't know for certain if you're going to make things better, make them worse, or have no effect.  What if you go back to 1928 and kill Hitler and that provides Stalin and the Soviets the opportunity to conquer the entire European continent? 

Edited February 7, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[Coffeesforclosers]

2 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

By sending Boris Johnson to deliver the message to Zelensky that if he attempts to make a deal with the Russian they'll kill him. 

 

I googled this claim and found nothing. What's your source? 

[Warcodered]

24 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

I googled this claim and found nothing. What's your source? 

The power of imagination.

[All_Pro_Bills]

41 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

I googled this claim and found nothing. What's your source? 

Try Bing.  Here's one:

 

https://www.ibtimes.sg/western-bloc-led-by-aggressive-boris-johnson-ruined-russia-ukraine-peace-deal-leading-year-long-68910

 

[Warcodered]

27 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Try Bing.  Here's one:

 

https://www.ibtimes.sg/western-bloc-led-by-aggressive-boris-johnson-ruined-russia-ukraine-peace-deal-leading-year-long-68910

 

Article doesn't say that.

[Coffeesforclosers]

17 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Try Bing.  Here's one:

 

https://www.ibtimes.sg/western-bloc-led-by-aggressive-boris-johnson-ruined-russia-ukraine-peace-deal-leading-year-long-68910

 

 

It does not say Boris Johnson threatened to kill Zelensky if he made peace. It does say Naftali Benett got a promise from Putin that he would stop trying to assassinate Zelensky.  Sounds like wires got crossed? 

 

 

[Tiberius]

Boris Johnson threatened to kill Zelenski...lol 🤣

[Warcodered]

17 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

It does not say Boris Johnson threatened to kill Zelensky if he made peace. It does say Naftali Benett got a promise from Putin that he would stop trying to assassinate Zelensky.  Sounds like wires got crossed? 

 

 

Think he probably meant Putin would keep trying to kill him, though he definitely phrased it like it was Boris, also this still wasn't in the article, either way I'm not sure I'm going to fault them for saying not to trust Putin's word on an agreement considering how he keeps breaking them with them.

[Tommy Callahan]

in the 80's the mob learned to speak in person cause the feds were wire tapping them.

 

but their is NO proof they were talking about mob/bad things in those private meetings.

 

Its not like Boris and others would be aware that entities have ways to capture and disclose cables/transmissions

 

 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

31 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

It does not say Boris Johnson threatened to kill Zelensky if he made peace. It does say Naftali Benett got a promise from Putin that he would stop trying to assassinate Zelensky.  Sounds like wires got crossed? 

 

 

Johnson delivered a message which scuttled a peace deal that had an agreement from both sides.  Because certain western powers didn't want the war to end.  So another 10 months of war and bloodshed so far.  Exactly what threats or coercion Boris expressed in communicating the message demanding obedience, use your imagination.  

[Tiberius]

A United States warship, a Destroyer named USS Nitze, was seen to be operating in the Black Sea. This is the closest a US warship has been to Russia since the Russian invasion of Ukraine began. 

Nitze operates as part of the George H.W. Bush Carrier Strike Group. 

The ship entered the region and visited Turkey on February 3rd, which was confirmed on the Twitter account of the US Navy's Sixth Fleet.

 

The US Ambassador to Turkey Jeff Flake and the US Consulate General to Istanbul Julie Eadeh visited the ship for several hours.

The ambassador made no connection between the ship’s presence and the ongoing war between Russia and Ukraine. Rather, Flake described the visit as an opportunity to strengthen a NATO relationship. 

“Turkey is a highly valued NATO Ally,” Flake said in a Sixth Fleet news release. “Nitze’s visit is an opportunity to further strengthen our long-standing and vital partnership with Turkey.”

 

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-730810

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Boris Johnson threatened to kill Zelenski...lol 🤣

So do you believe the UK or US through their intelligence services have never killed or removed a non-compliant foreign leader?  Like when the US executed a coup against Iranian democracy in 1953 because of the threat to nationalize oil interests of American and British corporations.  And replaced it with the Shah of Iran, a brutal dictator.  Or CIA support for the Chilean military to remove Allende in 1973.  Same reason, corporate interests.  I could go on and on here.

What's amazing is how people of high intelligence with all this information at their disposal refuse to understand that our government, whichever party is in power, works for the Fortune 100. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

8 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So do you believe the UK or US through their intelligence services have never killed or removed a non-compliant foreign leader?  Like when the US executed a coup against Iranian democracy in 1953 because of the threat to nationalize oil interests of American and British corporations.  And replaced it with the Shah of Iran, a brutal dictator.  Or CIA support for the Chilean military to remove Allende in 1973.  Same reason, corporate interests.  I could go on and on here.

What's amazing is how people of high intelligence with all this information at their disposal refuse to understand that our government, whichever party is in power, works for the Fortune 100. 

Don't forget Kennedy taking out Diem! 

 

But Zalensky is a friend of ours. Trump might like him gone, but not the current leadership. 

 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

15 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

A United States warship, a Destroyer named USS Nitze, was seen to be operating in the Black Sea. This is the closest a US warship has been to Russia since the Russian invasion of Ukraine began. 

Nitze operates as part of the George H.W. Bush Carrier Strike Group. 

The ship entered the region and visited Turkey on February 3rd, which was confirmed on the Twitter account of the US Navy's Sixth Fleet.

 

The US Ambassador to Turkey Jeff Flake and the US Consulate General to Istanbul Julie Eadeh visited the ship for several hours.

The ambassador made no connection between the ship’s presence and the ongoing war between Russia and Ukraine. Rather, Flake described the visit as an opportunity to strengthen a NATO relationship. 

“Turkey is a highly valued NATO Ally,” Flake said in a Sixth Fleet news release. “Nitze’s visit is an opportunity to further strengthen our long-standing and vital partnership with Turkey.”

 

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-730810

https://news.usni.org/2014/12/29/u-s-destroyer-donald-cook-returns-black-sea

 

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.prophecies.nostradamus/c/fnMwKKdelL4?pli=1

 

https://news.usni.org/2016/06/06/video-u-s-destroyer-enters-black-sea-first-time-2016

Edited February 7, 2023 by Chris farley

[Tiberius]

The EU’s energy war with Russia has entered a new phase — and there are signs that the Kremlin is starting to feel the pain.

The Kremlin’s tax income from oil and gas in January was among its lowest monthly totals since the depths of COVID in 2020, according to Janis Kluge, senior associate at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs.

Kluge noted that while Russia’s 2023 budget anticipates 9 trillion rubles (€120 billion) in fossil fuel income, in January it earned only 425 billion rubles from oil and gas taxes, around half compared to the same month last year.

It's only one month's figures and the income does fluctuate, but Kluge called it "a bad start."

Russia’s gas sales to Europe have also collapsed — in part as a result of Moscow's own energy blackmail — with its share of imports declining from around 40 percent throughout 2021 to 13 percent for November 2022, according to the latest confirmed European Commission monthly figure.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-oil-revenue-plunge-european-union-sanctions-war-round-two-ukraine/

[Tiberius]

The Russian military may be rushing to launch an offensive to capture the Donetsk region “in an unrealistic timeframe,” the Washington-based Institute for the Study of War think tank said Tuesday. The ISW said the Kremlin was unlikely to have the combat power necessary for the push, citing a British Defense Ministry assessment that said Russian forces have gained only several hundred meters of territory per week.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/02/08/russia-ukraine-war-latest-updates/

 

Rush rush rush ...