All_Pro_Bills Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 (edited) On 4/9/2022 at 5:51 PM, sherpa said: As someone who has served in the US military as an officer and was involved in ROE, and very familiar with what and how the US conducts itself, I find any comparison with what the Russians have done in the Ukraine with how how the US military operates to be grossly ignorant and insulting. Bad things happen in war. Intent and professionalism are important. Barbarisms and murder cannot be tolerated. Let me say my intent was not to dishonor the soldier in the field or their standard of conduct. I'm talking leadership. And you can call it what you want but considering how many wars our country engages in vs. the rest of the world (all for good intentions of course) our government's belief in its moral and ethical superiority is always the excuse for a lack of accountability. Edited April 12, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 Chemical weapons ? Not so fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 12, 2022 Author Share Posted April 12, 2022 6 minutes ago, B-Man said: Chemical weapons ? Not so fast. Let's hope not. Putin's war crimes are already bad enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 Have we resolved *Democracy's" fiery ordeal yet? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 3 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said: Let me say my intent was not to dishonor the soldier in the field or their standard of conduct. I'm talking leadership. And you can call it what you want but considering how many wars our country engages in vs. the rest of the world (all for good intentions of course) our government's belief in its moral and ethical superiority is always the excuse for a lack of accountability. You can frame your view any way you desire. In point of fact, the US military has had its issues with improper behavior over the years. Those individuals, once identified, have for the most part, been prosecuted. We have lost thousands of our folks abiding by the rules of engagement that are specific to each situation. What is going on in the Ukraine bears no resemblance to anything the US has done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 (edited) Mariupol is about to fall for real this time. Ukraine's 36th Naval Infantry Brigade (part of the garrison) sent out their farewell video today. Pretty much said that they'd fought to the last bullet and that Ukraine should keep on fighting until it wins. *Somehow* Ukraine was sneaking ammunition through Russian lines to these guys, but Russia overran the drop zones in the last 72 hours. Edited April 12, 2022 by Coffeesforclosers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 Putin is now mouthing off, what he us going to do, he is worried...it is time for NATO to take action. Genocide is not acceptable in our society. 4 million Ukrainians died in 1932/33 because of Russia. It is time for Russia to pay. Ukraine must be given weapons that will strike inside Russia. Putin must be unseated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Niagara Bill said: Putin is now mouthing off, what he us going to do, he is worried...it is time for NATO to take action. Genocide is not acceptable in our society. 4 million Ukrainians died in 1932/33 because of Russia. It is time for Russia to pay. Ukraine must be given weapons that will strike inside Russia. Putin must be unseated. Not to quibble, but I doubt the Ukraine has the ability to employ weapons that would penetrate Russia, and the effort might be catastrophic for the rest of the world. Name specifics, 'cause that's where the rubber meets the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 18 minutes ago, sherpa said: Not to quibble, but I doubt the Ukraine has the ability to employ weapons that would penetrate Russia, and the effort might be catastrophic for the rest of the world. Name specifics, 'cause that's where the rubber meets the road. Genocide to a Christian nation, to a nation loved and trusted for 100 years by the west is being terrorized. We defended Afghans for goodness sake. We defended Vietnam, WTF are we doing. If this was Italy what would we do. Putin must be stopped. NOW. Remember 1938. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Niagara Bill said: Genocide to a Christian nation, to a nation loved and trusted for 100 years by the west is being terrorized. We defended Afghans for goodness sake. We defended Vietnam, WTF are we doing. If this was Italy what would we do. Putin must be stopped. NOW. Remember 1938. How do you suggest we stop him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 3 hours ago, Niagara Bill said: Genocide to a Christian nation, to a nation loved and trusted for 100 years by the west is being terrorized. We defended Afghans for goodness sake. We defended Vietnam, WTF are we doing. If this was Italy what would we do. Putin must be stopped. NOW. Remember 1938. What? Are you talking about the 1934 famine? Stalin and communism killed ALL Russians. Yes especially Ukrainians that resisted the commies in 1917. This is not the same. Actually wait.....yes. Maybe it is like Vietnam or Afghanistan or even Israel! We'll find the descendants of the first Kievan Rus that sailed along the Dneiper River and settled Kiev and their "rightful" claims to Russia. Make sure we get all the ethnicities right and claims correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 4 hours ago, Niagara Bill said: Genocide to a Christian nation, to a nation loved and trusted for 100 years by the west is being terrorized. We defended Afghans for goodness sake. We defended Vietnam, WTF are we doing. If this was Italy what would we do. Putin must be stopped. NOW. Remember 1938. Italy is a member of NATO, so the answer is obvious. Putin isn't Hitler, and the Russian military "performance" is nothing like what the Germans did at the start of WWII. In short, his advance is already pretty much geographically stopped. Again, how is the Ukraine going to conduct offensive operations inside Russia? Further, NATO being what it is now, with Canada and Germany, among others, not keeping up their military capabilities, anything done would be overwhelmingly US, and this isn't our fight, yet. We can't be everyone's big brother all the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L Ron Burgundy Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 9 hours ago, Niagara Bill said: Genocide to a Christian nation, to a nation loved and trusted for 100 years by the west is being terrorized. We defended Afghans for goodness sake. We defended Vietnam, WTF are we doing. If this was Italy what would we do. Putin must be stopped. NOW. Remember 1938. Eh, loved might be a bit much. Ukraine is a fairly corrupt country though theyd been making progress. Were they loved someone would have already stepped in more actively. I know that's harsh but just keeping it real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 9 hours ago, Big Blitz said: What? Are you talking about the 1934 famine? Stalin and communism killed ALL Russians. Yes especially Ukrainians that resisted the commies in 1917. This is not the same. Actually wait.....yes. Maybe it is like Vietnam or Afghanistan or even Israel! We'll find the descendants of the first Kievan Rus that sailed along the Dneiper River and settled Kiev and their "rightful" claims to Russia. Make sure we get all the ethnicities right and claims correct. Ukraine had 4 million die when Stalin took all their grain and food😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 3 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said: Eh, loved might be a bit much. Ukraine is a fairly corrupt country though theyd been making progress. Were they loved someone would have already stepped in more actively. I know that's harsh but just keeping it real. Canada has thousands of Ukrainian immigrants over past 75 years. Very successful. Assimilation has been incredible. There is no crime syndicate. Corruption came to Ukraine with Russia connections. Ukraine cannot get out from under the Russia shadow because of grain, minerals and power production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 Ukrainian pilot reveals what his country's military really needs in fight against Russia Pilot says Ukraine’s Air Force has had 'a lot of losses' "But in general, we cannot gain a real air superiority, unfortunately," he said, adding that Western countries should supply Ukraine with more advanced air-defense systems if they can’t receive updated planes. https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukrainian-pilot-reveals-what-his-military-needs-against-russia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 17 minutes ago, ALF said: Ukrainian pilot reveals what his country's military really needs in fight against Russia The Cliff Notes version of this is that what the Ukraine wants, regarding their airspace problem, is first line US stuff, and that isn't going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 When Russia took over Crimea and invaded the Donbas region starting in 2014 the US and NATO should have started training and equipping Ukraine with more advanced SAM and Jets. Once the Russian puppet there was thrown out at that time . The annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation took place in the aftermath of the 2014 Ukrainian revolution. During his presidency, Poroshenko 2014-19 led the country through the first phase of the War in Donbas, pushing the Russian separatist forces into the Donbas Region. He began the process of integration with the European Union by signing the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 11 minutes ago, ALF said: When Russia took over Crimea and invaded the Donbas region starting in 2014 the US and NATO should have started training and equipping Ukraine with more advanced SAM and Jets. Once the Russian puppet there was thrown out at that time . I am really reticent to comment on this, but these things are far more complicated than is ever discussed on message boards. It is very difficult and extremely threatening to swap military suppliers. For the Ukraine to suddenly decide to swap their Russian defense system to a US/NATO system would have been incredibly aggressive as seen by the Russians. Basically a NATO agreement. Further, the Ukrainian regime is not known for lack of corruption, and keeping US top shelf stuff away from hostile foreigners is a big part of defense trade, and always a huge consideration. See the refusal to sell F-35's to Turkey, a NATO country. I have no doubt that when this thing comes to an end a good deal of US taxpayer paid military material will be ultimately sold to the highest bidder, no matter how despicable. The thought of providing the Ukraine with top of the line "stuff," and the training required to use it is not realistic nor advisable. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 The west is talking about sending there S300 SAM and could have sent the Mig-29 before this latest invasion (better then nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 11 minutes ago, ALF said: The west is talking about sending there S300 SAM and could have sent the Mig-29 before this latest invasion (better then nothing Both are Russian systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 23 minutes ago, sherpa said: Both are Russian systems. So should have been no problem if done before this invasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 1 hour ago, ALF said: So should have been no problem if done before this invasion. I don't know if "problem" is the right word. If you are going to burden countries with providing very expensive and sophisticated weapons to another country, you need to ensure that the recipient has the skill and manpower to employ them., and the ability to keep them functional. Not sure they had that. Throwing a bunch of Mig 29's at the Ukraine without the ability to man them, control them, knowing that the runways could be wasted on day one is probably a decision that needs consideration. Placing a cadre of SAM 300 systems in place suggests that you better be able to tell who is friend and who is foe, and I'm not sure they had that. These issues are not video games. There are lots or issues on the periphery that are involved in weapons system's calculus. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 3 hours ago, ALF said: When Russia took over Crimea and invaded the Donbas region starting in 2014 the US and NATO should have started training and equipping Ukraine with more advanced SAM and Jets. Once the Russian puppet there was thrown out at that time . The annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation took place in the aftermath of the 2014 Ukrainian revolution. During his presidency, Poroshenko 2014-19 led the country through the first phase of the War in Donbas, pushing the Russian separatist forces into the Donbas Region. He began the process of integration with the European Union by signing the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement. Who was in Office in 2014? Why do you suppose it wasn't done, considering they (allegedly) weren't "Putin puppets"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 9 minutes ago, Doc said: Who was in Office in 2014? Why do you suppose it wasn't done, considering they (allegedly) weren't "Putin puppets"? Obama had to fund wars in Afghanistan and Iraq with the money he could get from Congress. What did Trump do while in office for Ukraine? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 13, 2022 Author Share Posted April 13, 2022 Ukraine is claiming to have hit a Russian warship in the black sea https://ukranews.com/en/news/849331-russian-warship-moskva-is-on-fire-in-black-sea-media 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, ALF said: Obama had to fund wars in Afghanistan and Iraq with the money he could get from Congress. What did Trump do while in office for Ukraine? A partisan would say he prevented it, which is the best thing one can do. I don't believe that, but Putin chose his time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 7 minutes ago, ALF said: Obama had to fund wars in Afghanistan and Iraq with the money he could get from Congress. What did Trump do while in office for Ukraine? Good one ALF. You first asked why nothing was done in 2014, yet now you have excuses for why Barry did nothing (and somehow include the Iraq war, that ended in 2011, while Trump also had to deal with the war in Afghanistan). Just now, sherpa said: A partisan would say he prevented it, which is the best thing one can do. I don't believe that, but Putin chose his time. So if Trump had gotten re-elected, Putin still would have invaded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, Doc said: So if Trump had gotten re-elected, Putin still would have invaded? I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Doc said: Good one ALF. You first asked why nothing was done in 2014, yet now you have excuses for why Barry did nothing (and somehow include the Iraq war, that ended in 2011, while Trump also had to deal with the war in Afghanistan). Republicans had a majority in the House limiting Defense spending from 2011- Jan 2019 to restrict Obama spending to reduce deficit In December 2019, Iraq and the United States began discussing the partial withdrawal of American combat troops from Iraq. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_United_States_troops_from_Iraq_(2020–2021) Budget Control Act of 2011 The bill directly specified $917 billion of cuts over 10 years in exchange for the initial debt limit increase of $900 billion. This is the first installment ("tranche") of cuts. $21 billion of this will be applied in the FY2012 budget. The goal of the legislation was to cut at least $1.5 trillion over the coming 10 years and be passed by December 23, 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_Control_Act_of_2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 1 hour ago, sherpa said: A partisan would say he prevented it, which is the best thing one can do. I don't believe that, but Putin chose his time. The armed conflict in Eastern Ukraine started in 2014. Between then and early 2022, it had already killed over 14,000 people. Over the course of eight years, Ukrainian government forces fought Russian-backed separatists for control over much of the two heavily industrialised regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, also known as Donbas. Fierce battles in 2014-2015 ended with one third of the regions' territory, its most urbanised part, occupied by two Russian proxy statelets, the self-described Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics. https://www.crisisgroup.org/content/conflict-ukraines-donbas-visual-explainer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 1 hour ago, ALF said: What did Trump do while in office for Ukraine? You can't be serious? Trump tried to intervene in the Ukrainian corruption gravy train. But when we said he would send them aid, on the condition that they'd clean up their act....Nancy and her clown car impeached him for asking! Were you taking a nap that year? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: You can't be serious? Trump tried to intervene in the Ukrainian corruption gravy train. But when we said he would send them aid, on the condition that they'd clean up their act....Nancy and her clown car impeached him for asking! Were you taking a nap that year? What a lazy, inaccurate answer when you Google the actual articles of impeachment in about a minute. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 13, 2022 Author Share Posted April 13, 2022 Quote The new package includes 11 Mi-17 helicopters that had been earmarked for Afghanistan before the U.S.-backed government collapsed last year. It also includes 18 155mm howitzers, along with 40,000 artillery rounds, counter-artillery radars, 200 armored personnel carriers and 300 additional "Switchblade" drones. This was the first time howitzers have been provided Biden admin sending more aid. Big howitzers! That’s a big deal. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-announces-additional-800-million-military-aid-ukraine-2022-04-13/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Coffeesforclosers said: What a lazy, inaccurate answer when you Google the actual articles of impeachment in about a minute. Ha ha! Sure let’s ask Adam Schiff what ANY of that was actually about. Maybe he can tell us who his secret whistleblower was while we’re at it. Unbelievable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 3 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said: What a lazy, inaccurate answer when you Google the actual articles of impeachment in about a minute. We'll see, now that they're finally taking idiot boy's laptop seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 5 minutes ago, Doc said: We'll see, now that they're finally taking idiot boy's laptop seriously. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 4 hours ago, sherpa said: I have no idea. I have a pretty good idea... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted April 14, 2022 Author Share Posted April 14, 2022 11 hours ago, B-Man said: Maybe Hillary’s emails are on it The stupid crap you guys go on about. Did you see Jared Kushner made Billions from the Saudis? Now the6 are keeping oil prices high. Hmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 13 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Maybe Hillary’s emails are on it The stupid crap you guys go on about. Did you see Jared Kushner made Billions from the Saudis? Now the6 are keeping oil prices high. Hmmmm You literally have no idea what any of these stories are about, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts