Pegulas invite UB football to new stadium. UB prefers to stay on campus.

[Gordio]

53 minutes ago, Doc said:

Or a team, either. Kroenke is from Missouri so he (like Kim with Buffalo) has ties to the STL area. He’s far more wealthy than the Pegulas and could have built a new stadium there with his own money and still made bank considering he bought the team for about $600M. He wanted to make tons more money, so he left.  

And yeah the stadium will easily pay for itself in years. Because of where it’s located. In OP…not so much.   

 

Who knows, maybe students would be more willing to go to a nice(r) stadium?  Why not try it out for a year and if it doesn’t work, go back to the old way.

 

 

It wouldn't work.  UB did play a game at the stadium Thanksgiving weekend a few years ago, I think it was well attended but it was a novelty.  I do think if UB started playing in OP you would get more fans there from the community but students right now arent crazy about taking a 5 minute walk to the stadium, my guess is they it would be a tough sell to treck all the way across to the southtowns.  It is disappointing, with the size of UB(I think they have 20K + underrgrad students they should have one of the best home court/home field advantages in the MAC but it is just not the case although Alumni Arena can produce a good atmosphere when the team is going good.  

[Doc]

9 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

That's not an answer to the questions that you asked me...

 

lol....the entertainment industry, great point--their hit deeply affected the Pegula Family Lifestyle Industry, as we all were made aware.  Your pay cut was simply fewer cases billed for (briefly).  No entity benefitted from your "pay cut".  

 

It's a historical fact  that public money will usually be involved in building a stadium.  I've always been against it in principle and as a horrible investment.  Like Kroenke (who actually put his  money up), Pegula could easily afford to finance his stadium.   So I think he should pay all (in principle) or the vast majority of it (in reality).  His opening offer was zero point zero.

 

Pretty simple.

 

Maybe he can build a stadium in that massive San Diego market!  Ask Spanos----that's where the real money is!

 

Kroenke returned the Rams to the City/state from which St Louis took them from---and where they played for 48 seasons.  Did you also cry when St Louis (who "stole" them from Chicago) lost the Cardinals to AZ (due to a crappy stadium and crappy fans)?  So it's easy to conclude that by bringing the team back to LA, spending his own money to build a massive entertainment complex, Rams fans consider Kroenke a fantastic owner.  If Pegula did the same in Buffalo, I would consider him a great owner as well.

 

So wait, now it's “No team will ever move to LA (because no owner will pay for his own stadium there)" and Kroenke's pure money play was justified because STL "took them from" there?  LOL!  As usual you're really twisting yourself in knots trying to avoid saying "I was wrong." 

 

Again, Kroenke didn't need to move from STL and could have easily afforded to build a new stadium there.  He did it because he just wanted to make more money.  And lo and behold, he found a market, one from which would easily be able to recoup his investment.  To put him up as a shining example of an owner paying for his own stadium is funny.

 

And why mention building a new stadium in San Diego?  Why not...STL (I know)?  Think they wouldn't spend money for a new stadium, considering they're suing because they believe Kroenke never intended to stay and thus didn't negotiate in good faith?

 

Yup, public money is usually used.  It will be in this case.  Again if your standard for the owner of the Bills was that he/she/they entirely or even mostly fund a new stadium, you were never dealing in reality.  So hate away.  It won't change much.

 

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, Doc said:

 

So wait, now it's “No team will ever move to LA (because no owner will pay for his own stadium there)" and Kroenke's pure money play was justified because STL "took them from" there?  LOL!  As usual you're really twisting yourself in knots trying to avoid saying "I was wrong." 

 

Again, Kroenke didn't need to move from STL and could have easily afforded to build a new stadium there.  He did it because he just wanted to make more money.  And lo and behold, he found a market, one from which would easily be able to recoup his investment.  To put him up as a shining example of an owner paying for his own stadium is funny.

 

And why mention building a new stadium in San Diego?  Why not...STL (I know)?  Think they wouldn't spend money for a new stadium, considering they're suing because they believe Kroenke never intended to stay and thus didn't negotiate in good faith?

 

Yup, public money is usually used.  It will be in this case.  Again if your standard for the owner of the Bills was that he/she/they entirely or even mostly fund a new stadium, you were never dealing in reality.  So hate away.  It won't change much.

 

 

The factors that kept the NFL out of LA, for 21 years, are well known, doc.  Fan disinterest and no adequate facility.  In fact, "LA" was used as a bargaining chip by teams to get public money for local stadiums--everyone knows this.  No team was moving there--despite its "market".

 

St Louis could have called his bluff by simply pouring the money into the upgrades they had already agreed to as part of the lease.  But they didn't--the public wasn't interested in funding it.   It's a run down market run by rubes (hence I mentioned SD) --the Mayor said after the move that he had never met Kroenke in the 21 years they were  in STL!!  lol, wtf.  Kroenke said before he moved the team any team that came there would be on the "road to financial ruin".  This made STL cry.

 

So, yeah, Kroenke put up close to 6 billion (stadium plus relocation fee) of his money to move the team.  He's not going to make that money back in a couple of years....but certainly Pegula would make back $750 mil--1 billion stadium investment in Buffalo over time. 

 

So, to many Rams fans, he brought the team back to it's home and built them the best stadium in the world and paid for it himself.  How would they not see him as a great owner?

 

If Pegula said he was looking to relocate to St Louis where he will pay the entire cost for a brand new stadium, I would have more respect for the balls of it all than him coming to the table with hat in hand asking for full public funding. 

 

[Doc]

11 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

The factors that kept the NFL out of LA, for 21 years, are well known, doc.  Fan disinterest and no adequate facility.  In fact, "LA" was used as a bargaining chip by teams to get public money for local stadiums--everyone knows this.  No team was moving there--despite its "market".

 

St Louis could have called his bluff by simply pouring the money into the upgrades they had already agreed to as part of the lease.  But they didn't--the public wasn't interested in funding it.   It's a run down market run by rubes (hence I mentioned SD) --the Mayor said after the move that he had never met Kroenke in the 21 years they were  in STL!!  lol, wtf.  Kroenke said before he moved the team any team that came there would be on the "road to financial ruin".  This made STL cry.

 

So, yeah, Kroenke put up close to 6 billion (stadium plus relocation fee) of his money to move the team.  He's not going to make that money back in a couple of years....but certainly Pegula would make back $750 mil--1 billion stadium investment in Buffalo over time. 

 

So, to many Rams fans, he brought the team back to it's home and built them the best stadium in the world and paid for it himself.  How would they not see him as a great owner?

 

If Pegula said he was looking to relocate to St Louis where he will pay the entire cost for a brand new stadium, I would have more respect for the balls of it all than him coming to the table with hat in hand asking for full public funding.

 

Yeah, we knew what the factors were.  And it's why you said unequivocally that no one would ever build a new facility there because the fans would never have interest, considering the 2 teams they had, left.  The thing is, there is no evidence that fan interest suddenly increased to spur the move (and interest can certainly wane over time).  Meanwhile you chide me for not specifying that the Bills will stay in Buffalo for my lifetime "only if they get public money for a new stadium," something which was also well known because it is "a historical fact that public money will usually be involved in building a stadium (because owners threaten to move)."

 

And why should STL have "called his bluff" when Kroenke could easily have afforded to build a new stadium, much less upgrade the existing one, on his own?  He could easily "make back $750 mil--1 billion...over time."  But it's different between STL and Buffalo because STL is a "run down market run by rubes," right?  Yeah, OK.  But I'm sure a meeting with the mayor would have kept him there... 

 

OTOH, you do make an interesting (if diametrically opposed) argument that maybe STL didn't do enough to keep him, thinking he could afford to/should pay for it all himself and he had nowhere to go (sound familiar)?  Only to find out the hard way that they were wrong, wrong, wrong.  And maybe the lawsuit and damages sought are a prelude to getting a replacement team?

 

But one thing's for certain, Kroenke's a hero!  He paid for his stadium (in another city) and "saved" the Rams from STL and brought them back home to the handful of wistful LA-area Rams fans still pining for their return.  Watch out for that worship there, WEO!

 

Look, even if we were to believe the "unprecedented ask" of 100% public funding, it's called "negotiating."  It won't end up even close to 100%.  But keep harping on it and being a hypocrite when it comes to owners.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Doc

[Mr. WEO]

12 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Yeah, we knew what the factors were.  And it's why you said unequivocally that no one would ever build a new facility there because the fans would never have interest, considering the 2 teams they had, left.  The thing is, there is no evidence that fan interest suddenly increased to spur the move (and interest can certainly wane over time).  Meanwhile you chide me for not specifying that the Bills will stay in Buffalo for my lifetime "only if they get public money for a new stadium," something which was also well known because it is "a historical fact that public money will usually be involved in building a stadium (because owners threaten to move)."

 

And why should STL have "called his bluff" when Kroenke could easily have afforded to build a new stadium, much less upgrade the existing one, on his own?  He could easily "make back $750 mil--1 billion...over time."  But it's different between STL and Buffalo because STL is a "run down market run by rubes," right?  Yeah, OK.  But I'm sure a meeting with the mayor would have kept him there... 

 

OTOH, you do make an interesting (if diametrically opposed) argument that maybe STL didn't do enough to keep him, thinking he could afford to/should pay for it all himself and he had nowhere to go (sound familiar)?  Only to find out the hard way that they were wrong, wrong, wrong.  And maybe the lawsuit and damages sought are a prelude to getting a replacement team?

 

But one thing's for certain, Kroenke's a hero!  He paid for his stadium (in another city) and "saved" the Rams from STL and brought them back home to the handful of wistful LA-area Rams fans still pining for their return.  Watch out for that worship there, WEO!

 

Look, even if we were to believe the "unprecedented ask" of 100% public funding, it's called "negotiating."  It won't end up even close to 100%.  But keep harping on it and being a hypocrite when it comes to owners.

 

There ya go!  I knew you would come around to the obvious.  And that's some negotiation---"Senator, here's my offer,,,,I'll give you nothing".  Pegs is a regular Michael Corleone!!  lol.

 

Yeah you did know what the factors were--and that's why everyone said they wouldn't get a team.  For nearly 20 years that was correct.  You knew this as well. Whatever NFL fans exist in LA of course see him as a hero--he built them the most insane stadium in the world which houses 2 of the better teams in the league. 

 

Kroenke had enough of STL.  They reneged on the dumb deal they made with Frontiere on the lease and yeah, he figured he would take his money elsewhere.  Erie County doesn't have such a lease with Pegula.  It's up.   From the moment he bought the team you never saw Pegula as a guy who would ever threaten to move the team after the lease was expiring--over funding of a new stadium.  So stop with that already. 

 

If the NFL loses its suit and the owners half to cough up half a billion or whatever to the poor citizens of STL, do you really think they would subsequently  be in the mood to vote for an expansion into that city?  Good one doc...  

 

NYS and Erie can counter Pegula's initial "offer" with: "we'll pay for the street signs, that's it".  What's he gonna do?  Where's he going to go?

 

 

[Not at the table Karlos]

On 9/27/2021 at 9:22 AM, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Students are nice but having lots of fans in the stands is better. When UB played Bowling Green at RWS on a Thanksgiving Friday they drew 26K, the second largest home crowd the Bulls ever had. (Playing Syracuse at UB Stadium in 2009 drew 29K.)

 

You'd think local fans would like going to UB Stadium. Parking is free. The school, pre-pandemic, put on big tailgate concerts. Tickets are under $30, and just $10 if you buy during their preseason flash sale. And they have been decent the last few years.

 

The stadium is the issue. It is quite possibly the worst stadium ever built to watch a football game. The best place to watch the game was from the track behind the endzones but they put an end to that. 

 

The "good" seats should all be obstructed view because the players block a lot of the field. If you like watching players walk around on the sidelines it's a great stadium but if youre there to watch the game it's beyond terrible. 

 

Also watching on tv is kinda tough because the press box is close to fans and you can hear them clearly if they're even kinda loud. My family figured out where it was and will talk to me over ESPNs broadcast when I'm not there.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Not at the table Karlos

[Doc]

32 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

There ya go!  I knew you would come around to the obvious.  And that's some negotiation---"Senator, here's my offer,,,,I'll give you nothing".  Pegs is a regular Michael Corleone!!  lol.

 

Yeah you did know what the factors were--and that's why everyone said they wouldn't get a team.  For nearly 20 years that was correct.  You knew this as well. Whatever NFL fans exist in LA of course see him as a hero--he built them the most insane stadium in the world which houses 2 of the better teams in the league. 

 

Kroenke had enough of STL.  They reneged on the dumb deal they made with Frontiere on the lease and yeah, he figured he would take his money elsewhere.  Erie County doesn't have such a lease with Pegula.  It's up.   From the moment he bought the team you never saw Pegula as a guy who would ever threaten to move the team after the lease was expiring--over funding of a new stadium.  So stop with that already. 

 

If the NFL loses its suit and the owners half to cough up half a billion or whatever to the poor citizens of STL, do you really think they would subsequently  be in the mood to vote for an expansion into that city?  Good one doc...  

 

NYS and Erie can counter Pegula's initial "offer" with: "we'll pay for the street signs, that's it".  What's he gonna do?  Where's he going to go?

 

 

LOL!  You just can't help yourself, can you?  

 

You know, at some point after being shown that their claims are demonstrably false, a rational person would stop making them.  But you're not rational when it comes to Buffalo owners, Pegula in particular.  Just witness the "Pegs is a regular Michael Corleone" laugher.  Yeah, getting a company worth $158B to cough up $5B for assets that are now worth a fraction of that is pure luck, right?  I'm sure the Fredos in NYS and Erie county will be a tough task for him... 

 

And the Rams wouldn't need to get the money or for the case to even go to trial, just an assurance of getting a team.  You know, like other cities that lost teams have gotten?

 

Thanks for taking the bait on Kroenke and making a complete hypocrite of yourself.  I knew that you would.

[May Day 10]

1 hour ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

The stadium is the issue. It is quite possibly the worst stadium ever built to watch a football game. The best place to watch the game was from the track behind the endzones but they put an end to that. 

 

The "good" seats should all be obstructed view because the players block a lot of the field. If you like watching players walk around on the sidelines it's a great stadium but if youre there to watch the game it's beyond terrible. 

 

Also watching on tv is kinda tough because the press box is close to fans and you can hear them clearly if they're even kinda loud. My family figured out where it was and will talk to me over ESPNs broadcast when I'm not there.

 

I agree.  I cannot bring myself to go to many games there... I would.  I am a supporter of UB and I don't even look down on the MAC.  It is just a ghastly venue.  

[Doc]

On 9/27/2021 at 10:05 AM, Gordio said:

It wouldn't work.  UB did play a game at the stadium Thanksgiving weekend a few years ago, I think it was well attended but it was a novelty.  I do think if UB started playing in OP you would get more fans there from the community but students right now arent crazy about taking a 5 minute walk to the stadium, my guess is they it would be a tough sell to treck all the way across to the southtowns.  It is disappointing, with the size of UB(I think they have 20K + underrgrad students they should have one of the best home court/home field advantages in the MAC but it is just not the case although Alumni Arena can produce a good atmosphere when the team is going good.  

They could arrange for buses to take them. 

[Doc]

 

But whatever.  The offer was made and rejected.  Not the Bills' problem.

[May Day 10]

On 9/25/2021 at 4:41 PM, MWK said:

 

The only way SUNY Buffalo is getting to the Big 10 is if they are bought for a game in football. They can’t even fill their ugly track stadium with 25,000 people. It would be embarrassing for them to try to play at our new stadium. Now look at the Big 10’s attendance and football budgets. A couple trips to the Cheez It bowl aren’t going to sway the AAC, let alone the Big 10. My God some people are delusional.

 

I didnt mean/expect the Bulls to share a new stadium and the Big 10 come knocking right away.

 

IF we lived in the dimension where the Bills and the state/county built the state of the art stadium in Amherst, I would think it would make them very attractive to the AAC or whatever exists in its place/CUSA within 5 years (shifting will continue).  It would help with recruiting, and locals would likely attend more games.  It is not out of the realm of possibility the program would continue to grow, and maybe 10 years down the line, the landscape and fan support from WNY and the student body can be attractive to the Big 10 or whatever.  

Not saying it would definitely happen, but it opens a path.  With the current stadium and support, the program may be at its ceiling now.

 

As it is now, I cannot bring myself to attend games at that stadium.  I have tried.  i dont even hate the MAC or anything.  I know others who feel the same way.  

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

 

LOL!  You just can't help yourself, can you?  

 

You know, at some point after being shown that their claims are demonstrably false, a rational person would stop making them.  But you're not rational when it comes to Buffalo owners, Pegula in particular.  Just witness the "Pegs is a regular Michael Corleone" laugher.  Yeah, getting a company worth $158B to cough up $5B for assets that are now worth a fraction of that is pure luck, right?  I'm sure the Fredos in NYS and Erie county will be a tough task for him... 

 

And the Rams wouldn't need to get the money or for the case to even go to trial, just an assurance of getting a team.  You know, like other cities that lost teams have gotten?

 

Thanks for taking the bait on Kroenke and making a complete hypocrite of yourself.  I knew that you would.

 

False claims, you say?  Which?

 

The Corleone comparison was flawed--i now admit....., because Michael actually went through on his promise to pay nothing (and extract money from the Senator), whereas PSE got laughed out of the room and took a public beating for 2 weeks until they accepted that they would have to kick in, so....my bad! lol

 

Yes, Pegula cashed out just in time (but he certainly felt fracking was very viable when he sold, so it's not like he got over on Shell, bro).   Investing in his latest business venture hasn't been a very smart move for others so far though--so maybe your right.  Perhaps politicians in NYS and Erie are suckers like the ERAC investors.

 

So if the NFL and its owners (the Defendants in the suit) can just settle this with no money....just the promise of an expansion team?   yeah...

 

As I said, I give balls props to Kroenke because he spent big on his stadium when he didn't get what he wanted.  I would do the same when Pegula packs up and builds  that stadium for the St Louis Bills.  Barring that, the public funding should squeeze him hard because as you've said over and over--he and the Bills aren't going anywhere.

 

Pretty simple.

[LabattBlue]

1 hour ago, May Day 10 said:

As it is now, I cannot bring myself to attend games at that stadium.  I have tried.  i dont even hate the MAC or anything.  I know others who feel the same way.  

I agree. The current stadium is a joke, made worse by the running track between the stands and the field, and then the ridiculous end zone bleachers which were installed to meet some stadium capacity mandate by the MAC. 

 

It is a shame that there isn’t even a long term plan to replace the stadium in a 5-10 year window. 😞

[CountDorkula]

Would it be against NCAA rules for the Bills to share everything with UB, weight room/ field house/ practice facilities ETC.

 

I could see that being a huge advantage to UB in recruiting. 

 

I would obviously assume UB would have to pay money to the Pegulas to use it.

 

Maybe that is part of the issue too? Peguals wanted too much money from UB to play at the stadium? 

[Doc]

6 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

False claims, you say?  Which?

 

The Corleone comparison was flawed--i now admit....., because Michael actually went through on his promise to pay nothing (and extract money from the Senator), whereas PSE got laughed out of the room and took a public beating for 2 weeks until they accepted that they would have to kick in, so....my bad! lol

 

Yes, Pegula cashed out just in time (but he certainly felt fracking was very viable when he sold, so it's not like he got over on Shell, bro).   Investing in his latest business venture hasn't been a very smart move for others so far though--so maybe your right.  Perhaps politicians in NYS and Erie are suckers like the ERAC investors.

 

So if the NFL and its owners (the Defendants in the suit) can just settle this with no money....just the promise of an expansion team?   yeah...

 

As I said, I give balls props to Kroenke because he spent big on his stadium when he didn't get what he wanted.  I would do the same when Pegula packs up and builds  that stadium for the St Louis Bills.  Barring that, the public funding should squeeze him hard because as you've said over and over--he and the Bills aren't going anywhere.

 

Pretty simple.

 

Which?  Your demonstrably false claim that certain markets won't get teams/there are no markets left.  Which is the basis for your other false claim that Bills owners have no choice but to stay in Buffalo.  Leading to your false and hypocritical belief that they and they alone should pay entirely for a new stadium because they can/should afford to do so and have no other choice.  It's pretty silly at this point and it leads me to believe that you're just trying to troll all of us and/or convince yourself, since no one else is buying it.

 

As for Kroenke, as owner of the STL Rams, he was a turd.  It's a shame for STL fans but, hey, that's life and no I don't cry for them.  Bully for LA that they have NFL teams again and a shiny new palace paid-for by Kroenke (not that they deserve them any more than they did at any time over the past few decades) but that's neither here nor there and again I couldn't care less because I don't live there, much less follow those teams.

 

I doubt that Kroenke ever wanted to stay in STL.  If he were the owner of the Bills, I have no doubt that he'd have moved the team in a heartbeat, regardless of what the public was offering, and for that I'm glad we got Terry and Kim and not someone like him.  They won't move the team because they really don't want to (again, witness voting against the 3 teams moving) and will negotiate in good faith with NYS/Erie county and a compromise will be reached to keep the team in Buffalo, like we all knew it would take, would happen, and most importantly will happen.

 

But make no mistake, he got a BIG one over on Shell.  And as for ERESU, time will tell what it does for its investors.  Your investment in the Bills' new stadium however will be much appreciated by me.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Doc

[PromoTheRobot]

5 hours ago, Doc said:

 

But whatever.  The offer was made and rejected.  Not the Bills' problem.

 

I don't think anything is settled.

3 hours ago, CountDorkula said:

Would it be against NCAA rules for the Bills to share everything with UB, weight room/ field house/ practice facilities ETC.

 

I could see that being a huge advantage to UB in recruiting. 

 

I would obviously assume UB would have to pay money to the Pegulas to use it.

 

Maybe that is part of the issue too? Peguals wanted too much money from UB to play at the stadium? 

 

I doubt the Bills would share that much. besides UB has a nice fieldhouse and new football training facility. It's just the stadium that still sucks.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I don't think anything is settled.

 

True.  Talk is cheap.

[Don Otreply]

On 9/27/2021 at 5:46 AM, SoCal Deek said:

For those of us who live in LA, Kroenke isn’t an idiot or a philanthropist, the SoFi Stadium is WAY WAY more than a football stadium. It’s a huge development with office buildings etc all established to pay his stadium investment back in short order I’m sure. The Pegulas do NOT owe you a stadium.

They don’t owe us a stadium, and for damn sure we don’t owe them one either…, if they want a stadium for their team, they have more than enough financial wear with all to purchase one, if they want someone else’s money do that, so they can have said stadium, they gotta fork over stock in equal value to what the public financing is, then if they want to move they can purchase back that stock at its growth value, seems like a win win deal for both parties, no? 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Don Otreply

[Mr. WEO]

16 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Which?  Your demonstrably false claim that certain markets won't get teams/there are no markets left.  Which is the basis for your other false claim that Bills owners have no choice but to stay in Buffalo.  Leading to your false and hypocritical belief that they and they alone should pay entirely for a new stadium because they can/should afford to do so and have no other choice.  It's pretty silly at this point and it leads me to believe that you're just trying to troll all of us and/or convince yourself, since no one else is buying it.

 

As for Kroenke, as owner of the STL Rams, he was a turd.  It's a shame for STL fans but, hey, that's life and no I don't cry for them.  Bully for LA that they have NFL teams again and a shiny new palace paid-for by Kroenke (not that they deserve them any more than they did at any time over the past few decades) but that's neither here nor there and again I couldn't care less because I don't live there, much less follow those teams.

 

I doubt that Kroenke ever wanted to stay in STL.  If he were the owner of the Bills, I have no doubt that he'd have moved the team in a heartbeat, regardless of what the public was offering, and for that I'm glad we got Terry and Kim and not someone like him.  They won't move the team because they really don't want to (again, witness voting against the 3 teams moving) and will negotiate in good faith with NYS/Erie county and a compromise will be reached to keep the team in Buffalo, like we all knew it would take, would happen, and most importantly will happen.

 

But make no mistake, he got a BIG one over on Shell.  And as for ERESU, time will tell what it does for its investors.  Your investment in the Bills' new stadium however will be much appreciated by me.

i don’t expect he will pay all of it.  But the vast majority of it yes he should. What NYS/Erie county taxpayer would not want the same?  It’s a silly question really.  
 

The LA market was always there.  No one wanted to move there until Kroeber.  I’m fact it is well documented that more than one team just used “LA” as a chip to get funding.  I know you know this. Yiu also know the well documented reasons they couldn’t get a team there until a guy decided to do it himself and spend 6 billion out of pocket.  Again,  why claim ignorance on this? 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

i don’t expect he will pay all of it.  But the vast majority of it yes he should. What NYS/Erie county taxpayer would not want the same?  It’s a silly question really.  
 

The LA market was always there.  No one wanted to move there until Kroeber.  I’m fact it is well documented that more than one team just used “LA” as a chip to get funding.  I know you know this. Yiu also know the well documented reasons they couldn’t get a team there until a guy decided to do it himself and spend 6 billion out of pocket.  Again,  why claim ignorance on this? 

 

In an ideal world, people would "pay their fair share."  It rarely works that way.  You got yourself all worked-up over the "unprecedented ask," but we'll see how much he ends up paying for it.  Again just because he allegedly started at zero, it doesn't mean it will end up anywhere close to that.  The more he pays the more he owns.

 

Yes WEO, the LA market was always there.  Very astute observation.  Just like I've been telling you for the better part of 2 decades.  You completely dismissed it without any qualifications.  Now you've come around but you're still clinging to the "there are no markets left" claim.  Ignorance?  LOL!

[Mr. WEO]

6 hours ago, Doc said:

 

In an ideal world, people would "pay their fair share."  It rarely works that way.  You got yourself all worked-up over the "unprecedented ask," but we'll see how much he ends up paying for it.  Again just because he allegedly started at zero, it doesn't mean it will end up anywhere close to that.  The more he pays the more he owns.

 

Yes WEO, the LA market was always there.  Very astute observation.  Just like I've been telling you for the better part of 2 decades.  You completely dismissed it without any qualifications.  Now you've come around but you're still clinging to the "there are no markets left" claim.  Ignorance?  LOL!

everyone dismissed LA doc.  for 20 years.  No owners would move there. No expansion team.  it was a bluff used by several of them.   Everyone knows this so do you.  It’s not my on my say so lol—you’re making no sense now.  It was talked about for 2 decades: the reasons LA was not feasible.  
 

I haven’t been here for 2 decades, so I don’t know all of your fantasies and fabrications that predate me.  
 

but anyway…keep on turnin!

 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

20 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

They don’t owe us a stadium, and for damn sure we don’t owe them one either…, if they want a stadium for their team, they have more than enough financial wear with all to purchase one, if they want someone else’s money do that, so they can have said stadium, they gotta fork over stock in equal value to what the public financing is, then if they want to move they can purchase back that stock at its growth value, seems like a win win deal for both parties, no? 

Huh?  The point is that if the Pegulas dip into their own pockets to pay for a new stadium, they only have one way to recoup that expense.  Raise ticket prices.  I cannot imagine that people on a Bills Message Board prefer that option.  I can see people who follow off-road racing, or bowling, or deep-sea fishing preferring that funding strategy....but not Bills fans.

[Don Otreply]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Huh?  The point is that if the Pegulas dip into their own pockets to pay for a new stadium, they only have one way to recoup that expense.  Raise ticket prices.  I cannot imagine that people on a Bills Message Board prefer that option.  I can see people who follow off-road racing, or bowling, or deep-sea fishing preferring that funding strategy....but not Bills fans.

  I am tired of corporations getting the tax breaks, and putting the cost of doing their business on the backs of others, (the you and me of our country) so they don’t have to spend their own money, it’s total BS.

 

Football is not that important, so as to saddle taxpayers with  a private corporations debt for generations. What don’t people understand?

 

The NFL has financially screwed the people of every municipality that has done the stadium game the NFLs way. When will folks learn? 

 

Gotta go, to I’m off to dinner and a glass of wine, enjoy the game this weekend, should be a OPOTW outing for Josh 👍
 

Go Bills!!!

[Doc]

14 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

everyone dismissed LA doc.  for 20 years.  No owners would move there. No expansion team.  it was a bluff used by several of them.   Everyone knows this so do you.  It’s not my on my say so lol—you’re making no sense now.  It was talked about for 2 decades: the reasons LA was not feasible.  
 

I haven’t been here for 2 decades, so I don’t know all of your fantasies and fabrications that predate me.  
 

but anyway…keep on turnin!

 

Yeah, that's right.  The NFL hadn't been wanting to return to LA since the 2 teams left and things suddenly changed around 6 years ago, making LA more than just a bluff and feasible.  Good one.  

 

It was "always there" as a market.  And no, it didn't take a gaudy $6B facility and a savior like Kroenke to accomplish it.  Stop making excuses, just admit you were/are wrong about Bills owners never having an option to move because there are no markets and be done with it. 

 

True you haven't been here 20 years.  Weren't you (we) on some other forum starting around 2001?

Edited October 1, 2021 by Doc

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

  I am tired of corporations getting the tax breaks, and putting the cost of doing their business on the backs of others, (the you and me of our country) so they don’t have to spend their own money, it’s total BS.

 

Football is not that important, so as to saddle taxpayers with  a private corporations debt for generations. What don’t people understand?

 

The NFL has financially screwed the people of every municipality that has done the stadium game the NFLs way. When will folks learn? 

 

Gotta go, to I’m off to dinner and a glass of wine, enjoy the game this weekend, should be a OPOTW outing for Josh 👍
 

Go Bills!!!

Get off my lawn!!

[Augie]

4 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Get off my lawn!!

 

What if he’s just trying to mow it for you?   

 

OK, sensitive subject, but we spent thousands on drainage and sod this summer, for the 3rd or 4th time in 11 years, and it’s struggling in one area. We are going artificial turf if they can’t get this right. Sorry for the tangent, but it was cheaper than therapy. 

 

Carry on! 

[ColoradoBills]

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

What if he’s just trying to mow it for you?   

 

OK, sensitive subject, but we spent thousands on drainage and sod this summer, for the 3rd or 4th time in 11 years, and it’s struggling in one area. We are going artificial turf if they can’t get this right. Sorry for the tangent, but it was cheaper than therapy. 

 

Carry on! 

 

Out here in Colorado the sod just dries up and blows away replaced with weeks.

I xeriscaped.  LOL.

[Mr. WEO]

13 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Yeah, that's right.  The NFL hadn't been wanting to return to LA since the 2 teams left and things suddenly changed around 6 years ago, making LA more than just a bluff and feasible.  Good one.  

 

It was "always there" as a market.  And no, it didn't take a gaudy $6B facility and a savior like Kroenke to accomplish it.  Stop making excuses, just admit you were wrong and be done with it. 

 

True you haven't been here 20 years.  Weren't you (we) on some other forum starting around 2001?

 

Atta boy!!  Why was that so hard?

 

In the 20 years the NFL had no team in LA, they  awarded 4 expansion teams: they elected to move back to markets like Cleveland, Baltimore, Houston and added Carolina.  No love for LA, which had lost not 1 but 2 teams. The NFL didn't "award" them a team for losing 2.

 

And why was that?  As I said, the reasons are well known (even by you):   These will jog your repressed memory:

 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/will-los-angeles-finally-get-an-nfl-team-2015-01-28

 

(Former Mayor) Hahn, like many others, is convinced Los Angeles never will be home to an NFL franchise. He says the league has set up too many hurdles for the city to jump. Plus, L.A. has proved to be an effective bargaining chip for other franchises trying to squeeze better deals out of the cities where they currently play.

“They’ll [NFL teams] never put a team here because they like to use us as leverage,” Hahn said. “Everybody who wants to get a new stadium can say, ‘We can always move to L.A.’ And then they get what they want.”

He jokes that it’s gotten to the point where every team in the league will want at least one crack at using L.A. as a chit for squeezing a better deal out of other cities. By the time all the teams get their deals, it’ll be time to start a new cycle of NFL stadium renovation.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/7593-why-la-still-does-not-have-an-nfl-team (2008)

 

"Philip Anshutz, the billionaire owner of the Los Angeles Kings and Staples Center, tried unsuccessfully to build a stadium in Downtown L.A. to help lure an expansion team. When he saw what obstacles city hall was planning on putting in his way, he quickly backed down. "Until either an ownership group is willing to foot the bill for the construction of a stadium on top of the billion dollar expansion fee without counting on tax-payer money, the thought of professional football returning to Los Angeles is a long-shot."  

 

(read that sentence out loud in the mirror, doc)

 

"Because it would mean an odd number of teams, the NFL would much rather a team move to Los Angeles than grant them the 33rd franchise as an expansion team. The obvious candidates during the first half of the decade were the Chargers and the Saints."

 

"At first, Katrina seemed like it would be the best excuse for Tom Benson to move the Saints to Los Angeles. Many of its residents had fled, the Superdome was in need of repair and many of the businesses that buy up the luxury boxes had abandoned the city." 

 

So, to recap: for 20 years, LA was not a viable location for an NFL team.  The reasons had been described for 20 years.  It took an owner paying all cash to bring a team to LA.  Prior to Kroenke, in other words, there was no chance a team was headed to LA as even the League passed them over time after time.  Teams that could have moved there did not.  They did not expand into LA.  20 years....

 

 

"it didn't take a gaudy $6B facility and a savior like Kroenke to accomplish it". 

 

This could not be more wrong.  Very clearly, this is EXACTLY what it took.  The proof is copiously documented elsewhere and a few samples are cited  above and no cogent argument otherwise can be made.  For 20 years, everyone who pointed out the obvious:  NFL wasn't coming to LA, was correct.  Owners passed on it, the NFL passed on it.  It was used only as a bargain bluff, as I already said.  Only Kroenke was able to change that, with 6 billion dollars of his own money.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Mr. WEO

[Doc]

On 10/1/2021 at 9:03 AM, Mr. WEO said:

Atta boy!!  Why was that so hard?

 

In the 20 years the NFL had no team in LA, they  awarded 4 expansion teams: they elected to move back to markets like Cleveland, Baltimore, Houston and added Carolina.  No love for LA, which had lost not 1 but 2 teams. The NFL didn't "award" them a team for losing 2.

 

And why was that?  As I said, the reasons are well known (even by you):   These will jog your repressed memory:

 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/will-los-angeles-finally-get-an-nfl-team-2015-01-28

 

(Former Mayor) Hahn, like many others, is convinced Los Angeles never will be home to an NFL franchise. He says the league has set up too many hurdles for the city to jump. Plus, L.A. has proved to be an effective bargaining chip for other franchises trying to squeeze better deals out of the cities where they currently play.

“They’ll [NFL teams] never put a team here because they like to use us as leverage,” Hahn said. “Everybody who wants to get a new stadium can say, ‘We can always move to L.A.’ And then they get what they want.”

He jokes that it’s gotten to the point where every team in the league will want at least one crack at using L.A. as a chit for squeezing a better deal out of other cities. By the time all the teams get their deals, it’ll be time to start a new cycle of NFL stadium renovation.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/7593-why-la-still-does-not-have-an-nfl-team (2008)

 

"Philip Anshutz, the billionaire owner of the Los Angeles Kings and Staples Center, tried unsuccessfully to build a stadium in Downtown L.A. to help lure an expansion team. When he saw what obstacles city hall was planning on putting in his way, he quickly backed down. "Until either an ownership group is willing to foot the bill for the construction of a stadium on top of the billion dollar expansion fee without counting on tax-payer money, the thought of professional football returning to Los Angeles is a long-shot."  

 

(read that sentence out loud in the mirror, doc)

 

"Because it would mean an odd number of teams, the NFL would much rather a team move to Los Angeles than grant them the 33rd franchise as an expansion team. The obvious candidates during the first half of the decade were the Chargers and the Saints."

 

"At first, Katrina seemed like it would be the best excuse for Tom Benson to move the Saints to Los Angeles. Many of its residents had fled, the Superdome was in need of repair and many of the businesses that buy up the luxury boxes had abandoned the city." 

 

So, to recap: for 20 years, LA was not a viable location for an NFL team.  The reasons had been described for 20 years.  It took an owner paying all cash to bring a team to LA.  Prior to Kroenke, in other words, there was no chance a team was headed to LA as even the League passed them over time after time.  Teams that could have moved there did not.  They did not expand into LA.  20 years....

 

 

"it didn't take a gaudy $6B facility and a savior like Kroenke to accomplish it". 

 

This could not be more wrong.  Very clearly, this is EXACTLY what it took.  The proof is copiously documented elsewhere and a few samples are cited  above and no cogent argument otherwise can be made.  For 20 years, everyone who pointed out the obvious:  NFL wasn't coming to LA, was correct.  Owners passed on it, the NFL passed on it.  It was used only as a bargain bluff, as I already said.  Only Kroenke was able to change that, with 6 billion dollars of his own money.

 

That's a lot of writing to say that LA was, in fact, always a market.  Sure it might have taken an ownership group to put up their own money (the NFL helps with 25% in a 15-year loan and Kroenke's getting $1B over 30 years) but no, it didn't require a $6B spectacle, or even half that amount, for the purpose of playing football games.  The TV money and corporate sponsorships alone make the investment more than worth it.  What it really took is someone to "steal" a team from its city because of greed.

 

Meanwhile you're admitting that it was used as a bargaining chip for teams to get better deals from their cities, so obviously it was perceived as a market and few owners are footing the entire bill.  And it could only happen in a huge market like LA, which Buffalo is not.  Again praising Kroenke for (over)spending his own money for a stadium in another city is disingenuous at best.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Doc

[PromoTheRobot]

 

Nice crowd, perfect day for UB football.

[Justin C]

I've always hated the track around the stadium at UB. It kind of comes off as minor league and it is one of I believe only 4 left in NCAA Division 1.

 

I wonder if UB is targeted the AAC to join them after they missed out on raiding the MWC. I'm not sure how big of a jump it is from the MAC, but Buffalo's football/basketball has improved over the years to the point where I could see it happening.

[PromoTheRobot]

7-7 at the half. Game is on CBSSN.

[Peevo]

As a former UB student, and (now defunct) WRUB broadcaster, it is sad to see a successful mid major team waste away winning seasons at UB stadium.

 

I think the simplest answer is that they'll NEVER be a "power 5" school, therefore, will always be second fiddle to the Bills and NFL.  The Bills would have to move for the Bulls to really become a major college football program.  And that of course, is highly unlikely.  

 

There's so many layers to this that it takes too much to write.  UB's internal polling/survey's show that most Buffalo area fans don't want to identify with MAC teams.  Despite sharing socio-economic, climate, and geographic identities with fellow Great Lakes area schools in the MAC, most Buffalo fans want to be considered in the "Northeast", with NYC, Boston, Philly, etc.  This is of course, ridiculous.  

 

But even after 20 plus years in the MAC, fans just don't care.  Furthermore, 1 MAC title in that span is not nearly enough to justify a move to a "power 5" conference.  

 

Basically, it is a shame a school as big and funded as UB doesn't really "matter" in a sports context in Buffalo.  This is despite several appearances in NCAA tournament, multiple MAC championships in men's basketball, and a handful of bowl game appearances for the football team. 

 

Furthermore, UB is a "research" university.  Hard sciences. Medicine, architecture, chemistry, pharmacy, etc.  All very important things.  But those don't help gain the school notoriety in a sports context.  Syracuse, Bona, Columbia J, Missouri, etc. They crank out famous people.  If UB wants to "make it" in sports, they have to try to grow their school in ways that will get sports people to give a *****.  They literally don't have a journalism program!  Or broadcasting/public communication. 

 

Broadcasters love nothing more than to brag about where they went to broadcasting school.  Trust me, I worked with dozens of these people.  UB is NEVER on these lists.  They just simply have no brand.  

 

[TwistofFate]

Of course he does, that's tons of revenue on a Saturday. 

[Mr. WEO]

5 hours ago, Doc said:

 

That's a lot of writing to say that LA was, in fact, always a market.  Sure it might have taken an ownership group to put up their own money (the NFL helps with 25% in a 15-year loan and Kroenke's getting $1B over 30 years) but no, it didn't require a $6B spectacle, or even half that amount, for the purpose of playing football games.  The TV money and corporate sponsorships alone make the investment more than worth it.  What it really took is someone to "steal" a team from its city because of greed.

 

Meanwhile you're admitting that it was used as a bargaining chip for teams to get better deals from their cities, so obviously it was perceived as a market and few owners are footing the entire bill.  And it could only happen in a huge market like LA, which Buffalo is not.  Again praising Kroenke for (over)spending his own money for a stadium in another city is disingenuous at best.

 

It wasn't.  Owners didn't think so.  The NFL didn't think so.  Suckers (politicians) in smaller markets (and you) weren't the only ones taken in by what became over time a more and more obvious bluff.  For 20 years the only logical conclusion that anyone could draw was that LA was far more valuable to the NFL without a team than with a team.  You have to be one of the few humans with any familiarity with  NFL history who still does not understand this.

 

So...in the end, it did take a "savior" to put up his own money to finally, after 20 years of the NFL absolutely avoiding putting a team there despite multiple chances,  bring a team to LA.  You could have just agreed to that days ago and saved all this backtracking.  

 

But hey, at least you go your Fitbit steps in!!

 

Anyway, as you point out, a new stadium can be had for far less than 6 billion in a market like Buffalo, so Pegula can certainly afford to pay fo the vast majority of the cost.  

 

Simple...

[Doc]

23 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

It wasn't.  Owners didn't think so.  The NFL didn't think so.  Suckers (politicians) in smaller markets (and you) weren't the only ones taken in by what became over time a more and more obvious bluff.  For 20 years the only logical conclusion that anyone could draw was that LA was far more valuable to the NFL without a team than with a team.  You have to be one of the few humans with any familiarity with  NFL history who still does not understand this.

 

So...in the end, it did take a "savior" to put up his own money to finally, after 20 years of the NFL absolutely avoiding putting a team there despite multiple chances,  bring a team to LA.  You could have just agreed to that days ago and saved all this backtracking.  

 

But hey, at least you go your Fitbit steps in!!

 

Anyway, as you point out, a new stadium can be had for far less than 6 billion in a market like Buffalo, so Pegula can certainly afford to pay fo the vast majority of the cost.  

 

Simple...

 

LOL!  If "the LA market was far more valuable to the NFL without a NFL team than with one"...why did they approve not just 1 but 2 teams moving there?  As I (rhetorically) asked before, what changed?  That's right: nothing except for an owner greedy enough to do it.  Because the market (always) could support a team, even his gaudy $6B investment.

 

And like you believe with Pegula, Kroenke could easily have afforded to build a stadium in STL, much less pay for upkeep.  Only rubes believed that them breaking the terms of the lease or not meeting with the mayor is what forced him out.  Hence the reason STL is suing.  And is now a potential market after having their team stolen from them, again.  Which you will dismiss, as is your wont.

 

No, the Bills will get public money.  Just like most every team does.  Hopefully they can combine it with the UB stadium and make it more cost-effective for the state.

[Mr. WEO]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

LOL!  If "the LA market was far more valuable to the NFL without a NFL team than with one"...why did they approve not just 1 but 2 teams moving there?  As I (rhetorically) asked before, what changed?  That's right: nothing except for an owner greedy enough to do it.  Because the market (always) could support a team, even his gaudy $6B investment.

 

And like you believe with Pegula, Kroenke could easily have afforded to build a stadium in STL, much less pay for upkeep.  Only rubes believed that them breaking the terms of the lease or not meeting with the mayor is what forced him out.  Hence the reason STL is suing.  And is now a potential market after having their team stolen from them, again.  Which you will dismiss, as is your wont.

 

No, the Bills will get public money.  Just like most every team does.  Hopefully they can combine it with the UB stadium and make it more cost-effective for the state.

 

 

A billionaire decided to do what no other one  would do, nor the NFL would do--put a team in LA in a stadium he purchased. 

 

Before that it simply was not a viable market because the public funds for a new stadium were nonexistent.  Therefore it could not support a team moving there. I don't know why you are struggling with this.   Show me anything during that time period that states otherwise.  I provided a few of many articles describing why no one would move there and the NFL awarded teams elsewhere.  Let's see your links.

 

 

[Doc]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

A billionaire decided to do what no other one  would do, nor the NFL would do--put a team in LA in a stadium he purchased. 

 

Before that it simply was not a viable market because the public funds for a new stadium were nonexistent.  Therefore it could not support a team moving there. I don't know why you are struggling with this.   Show me anything during that time period that states otherwise.  I provided a few of many articles describing why no one would move there and the NFL awarded teams elsewhere.  Let's see your links.

 

Fine, public funds weren't available.  We get it.  But as you keep saying about how the Pegulas should spend $1.4B of their own money in Buffalo on a new stadium, maybe a billion more (more expensive stadium and relo fee) in LA shouldn't have been a tough task, right?  Any owner moving there (expansion wasn't feasible, I agree) would have seen their team value climb by at least $500M, and they would have shared in an even bigger TV revenue package and would gotten higher local revenue like Kroenke expects to see.  

 

Again just because no one else was that greedy doesn't mean it wasn't a market.  Most owners were reluctant to move and willing to work with their cities.  Kroenke obviously could have footed the bill for everything in STL but he never really wanted to stay (he decided to move them just 5 years after gaining full control).

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Fine, public funds weren't available.  We get it.  But as you keep saying about how the Pegulas should spend $1.4B of their own money in Buffalo on a new stadium, maybe a billion more (more expensive stadium and relo fee) in LA shouldn't have been a tough task, right?  Any owner moving there (expansion wasn't feasible, I agree) would have seen their team value climb by at least $500M, and they would have shared in an even bigger TV revenue package and would gotten higher local revenue like Kroenke expects to see.  

 

Again just because no one else was that greedy doesn't mean it wasn't a market.  Most owners were reluctant to move and willing to work with their cities.  Kroenke obviously could have footed the bill for everything in STL but he never really wanted to stay (he decided to move them just 5 years after gaining full control).

 

 

Any---yes, YES!!

 

Yet not one of them would move there to cash in on all that "higher local revenue".  Zero point zero.  And the NFL would not expand there.  They put 4 teams somewhere else! 

 

 

You can die on this hill, "as is your won't", but nothing could be more obvious and indisputable that LA was not a viable NFL market until Kroenke blew his load to bring them there.--the only owner who wasn't bluffing.  You have nothing, zero, to refute this.  It's common knowledge, accepted by everyone who was ever asked, who ever commented or wrote on this topic...except you.  Even you know it's true, but youre stuck in a corner that you painted (again!).

 

I can't help you any more on this one.  

 

 

 

[Doc]

12 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Any---yes, YES!!

 

Yet not one of them would move there to cash in on all that "higher local revenue".  Zero point zero.  And the NFL would not expand there.  They put 4 teams somewhere else! 

 

 

You can die on this hill, "as is your won't", but nothing could be more obvious and indisputable that LA was not a viable NFL market until Kroenke blew his load to bring them there.--the only owner who wasn't bluffing.  You have nothing, zero, to refute this.  It's common knowledge, accepted by everyone who was ever asked, who ever commented or wrote on this topic...except you.  Even you know it's true, but youre stuck in a corner that you painted (again!).

 

I can't help you any more on this one. 

 

I already said that expansion wasn't feasible, and it was over by 1999 when they awarded Houston an expansion team.  Again owners of existing teams didn't want to move their teams.  Because they were content making good money where they were in stadiums partially funded by the public.  Just like Kroenke could have done in STL, even if he had to pay for his own stadium like you believe the Pegulas should. 

 

You're just a raging hypocrite on this topic because you dislike Terry and/or Kim for goodness knows whatever reason.  Oh wait, it's the "hero worship."  LOL!

Edited October 2, 2021 by Doc