Sean McDermott's vaunted Dual A gap

[GoBills808]

31 minutes ago, BringBackFlutie said:

I see it both ways.  

 

Edmunds would be an excellent edge player.  It's easier reads for him, and would allow his athleticism to truly shine.

 

For better or worse, McD is coverage-focused.  He values that athleticism to disrupt passing lanes rather than disrupt the ones throwing into those lanes (or so it seems).

 

...I'm not one to crap on Edmunds or claim to understand the nuances of his responsibilities and whether the coaches are pleased with his execution there.  However, what concerns me about McD's apparent valuation of his skills as they pertain to his role in this defense is that it sure seemed like throwing directly at his zone worked a lot last year (such was not the case previously).

It probably didn't work as much as you think. The Cover1 guys broke down LB coverage in man vs zone looks, Edmunds was average in zone coverage based on EPA.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 minutes ago, section122 said:

 

I have a very strong belief that this was Ernie Adams entire role with the Patriots.  He watched and re-watched film to find tells from players.  I vaguely remember something about Fitz opening his hips when throwing left so the defense was trained to watch for that, and that being spoken about after the game.

 

I think that is why he was so instrumental to the success of the Patriots.  It also explains why they seemed to have a good idea what was coming on many plays (if you don't dive into headset eavesdropping/spygate as the explanation).  I think they did know what was coming but it was part of the preparation process for the team.  If you see a guy do this watch for that which is normal film study stuff.  I feel like the Pats did that but on another level from most teams.

 

I think the Pats did both.  I think they did spygate/eavesdrop but it was effective for them BECAUSE they did such detailed scouting work.

 

I also think the Bills got bitten on the ass because Reid and KC (both sides of the ball) did such a thorough scouting job on their playcalls and tendencies and tells that Spagnuolo and Bieniemy were able to exploit those and just pick them apart.

 

I think the above is what McDermott meant when he said "we got outcoached in that game", though he wouldn't answer when asked a follow-up question about what that meant.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It probably didn't work as much as you think. The Cover1 guys broke down LB coverage in man vs zone looks, Edmunds was average in zone coverage based on EPA.

 

 

 

With respect to Cover_1 (and this seems like a solid body of work), most people seem to feel that Edmunds improved between Year 1 and Year 2 and then last year.

 

So this may be the D equivalent of looking at Josh Allen's 3-year completion %, YPG, passer rating, and and sack % and judging accordingly.

Or it may not, but year by year data might need to be looked at to rule that out.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

With respect to Cover_1 (and this seems like a solid body of work), most people seem to feel that Edmunds improved between Year 1 and Year 2 and then last year.

 

So this may be the D equivalent of looking at Josh Allen's 3-year completion %, YPG, passer rating, and and sack % and judging accordingly.

Or it may not, but year by year data might need to be looked at to rule that out.

I think Edmunds has been a very consistent performer throughout his career. 

[BringBackFlutie]

27 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It probably didn't work as much as you think. The Cover1 guys broke down LB coverage in man vs zone looks, Edmunds was average in zone coverage based on EPA.

 

 

That's the beauty of feigning ignorance.  

 

"...seemed..."  😅

 

Seriously, I hope you're right.  We are so invested in our pass defense, but couldn't get off the field in the AFCCG.  McD should be the one coach in the league who can slow that O down.  He's handpicked both of his LBs to do just that.  Hopefully this year's DL additions go a long way in making it happen.

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Edmunds blitzed 67 times without generating a single pressure last season.

 

On paper he is ideal.......unfortunately games aren't played on paper they are played on tv.

 

67 blitzes and not a single pressure? Holy cow!! What an amazing stat!!! By the way, what are they calling that play in Week 17 against the Dolphins when he blitzes and gets home in about a second and a half and gets the solo sack, at 8:52 in the 1st quarter? Did he teleport in and because of that they didn't feel it was a pressure because he just arrived without approaching?  

 

I mean, it took me about two minutes of work to find that one. Wherever you got that stat, it's full of cow feces.

 

 

 

He did very well blitzing his first couple of years. It didn't work all that well last year, and a good deal of that was due to a general lack of ability for the Bills DL to pressure pressure the QB and cause chaos. The scheme wasn't working that well last year, partly due to a deficit of pass rushing DLs, partly a lack of Star to occupy OLs and partly injuries to Milano and Edmunds both.

 

He's a good blitzer. It's why so many people who don't quite get the system keep calling for him to be transferred to OLB.

[Chandler#81]

18 hours ago, beavis said:

The Klein play was when they were down by 14 with 6 to go. In the NFL, you should be able to do any scheme. Too much talent looking for a job.

Crack cocain is bad. Seek help.

18 hours ago, billybrew1 said:

"I like that play."  - Joe Willy Namath

Joe WILLIE Namath, Whippersnapper.

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Team defense(yards allowed) alone is an antiquated way of judging a defense.

 

The two years where they were top 10 in both points allowed and yardage they had a double digit sacker.    

 

McD's defense team rank in points allowed 2011-2016:

 

27th

18th

2nd

21st

6th

26th

 

That's inconsistency and it's a bit disingenuous to call a team like that a top 10 defense in an era of so many advanced statistics.  

 

Points matter in the equation.

 

Here are the Bills ranks in points allowed under McD:

 

18th

18th

2nd

16th

 

People can talk all they want about how they use the back 7........and no question McD does a good job there.........but the defense doesn't work right without that pass rush..........it's the #1 component.

 

 

 

Points absolutely matter in the equation. But yards allowed can be attributed almost completely to the defense.

 

Whereas points allowed can not. The play of your own offense and special teams has a major effect on how many points allowed the defense is charged for. There's probably somewhere around a 30% - 40% liability on the other facets. 

 

When your QB throws a pick six or your special teams allows a punt return touchdown, that 14 points allowed "by your defense." Or at least that's what you'd think if you look only at points allowed.

 

When your RB fumbles and the opponent gets the ball on your one yard line and the defense stones them for three plays and they kick a field goal, the yards allowed correctly tells the story, while the points allowed says, "Damn, three more points allowed by your defense." 

 

You're very right that looking only at yards allowed does not tell the story. But if you're going to look at one stat to as thoroughly as possible judge a defense, it might be the best baseline stat. Points allowed is more important but is more of a whole team stat than one that isolates the defense.

 

McD's defenses have been damn good with amazing consistency, both here and in Carolina.

 

 

[eball]

15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Edmunds blitzed 67 times without generating a single pressure last season.

 

 

But was HE standing next to Hannah Buehler in a photo last week TOO?

 

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

Yeah, but Frazier, when he calls the plays never runs that only when Mcdermott takes the playbook away from Frazier is when you see the bills line up like that.

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

I also think the Bills got bitten on the ass because Reid and KC (both sides of the ball) did such a thorough scouting job on their playcalls and tendencies and tells that Spagnuolo and Bieniemy were able to exploit those and just pick them apart.

 

I think the above is what McDermott meant when he said "we got outcoached in that game", though he wouldn't answer when asked a follow-up question about what that meant.

I think this is right on the money.  KC's coaches picked the Bills apart.

[Patrick Duffy]

16 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Edmunds blitzed 67 times without generating a single pressure last season.

 

On paper he is ideal.......unfortunately games aren't played on paper they are played on tv.

 

Not sure where you got this info, but it can't be correct. I mean 67 times is a good amount and (who/where) came to conclusion had zero pressures. I know good and well he had a couple sacks and also a few QB hits because I remember vividly. 

 

Are (wherever that stat came from) not considering those pressure?

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

Yeah, but Frazier, when he calls the plays never runs that only when Mcdermott takes the playbook away from Frazier is when you see the bills line up like that.

McDermott has only taken away play calling duties once from Frazier in buffalo 

 

Fan think it happens seven times a year... It's happened once in four seasons

[JerseyBills]

With Groot,Boogie and Efe able to play inside as well, this double a gap look should be even more destructive because of their length and pass rushing ability 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

 

Not sure where you got this info, but it can't be correct. I mean 67 times is a good amount and (who/where) came to conclusion had zero pressures. I know good and well he had a couple sacks and also a few QB hits because I remember vividly. 

 

Are (wherever that stat came from) not considering those pressure?

 

 

It's not correct.

 

He blitzed 72 times with 0 pressures.

 

Right in his stat line in pro football reference and has been cited here multiple times.

 

And yes he had a couple sacks but not on blitzes (the subject of this thread).

 

5 hours ago, eball said:

 

But was HE standing next to Hannah Buehler in a photo last week TOO?

 

 

 

See for yourself, Lahey.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/EdmuTr01.htm

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by BADOLBILZ
to call eball Lahey cuz the liquor talks to him

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

67 blitzes and not a single pressure? Holy cow!! What an amazing stat!!!

 

He's a good blitzer. It's why so many people who don't quite get the system keep calling for him to be transferred to OLB.

 

 

Thanks....but it was actually 0 for 72

 

And no,   he's not a good blitzer.   Obviously.

[Patrick Duffy]

14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

It's not correct.

 

He blitzed 72 times with 0 pressures.

 

Right in his stat line in pro football reference and has been cited here multiple times.

 

And yes he had a couple sacks but not on blitzes (the subject of this thread)

I thought it was from blitz since that's basically the only times they were getting pressure is when they started to blitz

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

I thought it was from blitz since that's basically the only times they were getting pressure is when they started to blitz

 

 

It's a sobering stat,  that's for certain.

 

 

 

 

[Punching Bag]

23 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

And he's apparently a master with the safeties, as well.  I remember reading something where one of them was describing how their interchangeable, and how they are regularly disguising their coverage assignments presnap.   

 

Yeah LB dropped in cover to replace 3CB and he moved to safety spot. 

Safety who was moving at snap got on OLman with great leverage and pushed into QB. 

Must be embarrassing to lineman anticipating to block a lineman to be blocked into QB by a safety.

[Buffalo Junction]

8 hours ago, BringBackFlutie said:

Well, he came from that scheme in Philly, right (rhetorical)?

 

I agree about the Pitt scheme.  Pretty sure the double A-gap is just a variation on the zone-blitzing concept that LeBeau, apparently, created. And yeah, Rex did it too (Mario hated it).

The Double A gap comes from Fritz Shurmur. Jim Johnson learned it (along with the big nickel) from him in Arizona. It’s a 4-3 variation of Shurmur’s “eagle defense”. LeBeau started incorporating it when the Steelers got Kevin Greene. It’s actually kind of fascinating to track the evolution of some of these schemes. 

[Buffalo716]

15 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

The Double A gap comes from Fritz Shurmur. Jim Johnson learned it (along with the big nickel) from him in Arizona. It’s a 4-3 variation of Shurmur’s “eagle defense”. LeBeau started incorporating it when the Steelers got Kevin Greene. It’s actually kind of fascinating to track the evolution of some of these schemes. 

Yes. McDermott's and Frazier's legacy is both tied to Johnson  

 

They both learned from innovators and have kept it going with their own wrinkles

 

 

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

6 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

McDermott has only taken away play calling duties once from Frazier in buffalo 

 

Fan think it happens seven times a year... It's happened once in four seasons

That is bull I know there is several times one the Seatle game.  Mcdermott believes in the Double A gap blitz on third down.  Frazier does not Frazier defense is the same as Dave Wannstedt defense nothing special no blitzing at all. 

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

That is bull I know there is several times one the Seatle game.  Mcdermott believes in the Double A gap blitz on third down.  Frazier does not Frazier defense is the same as Dave Wannstedt defense nothing special no blitzing at all. 

You can go back McDermott's entire career here... On record he has only taken away play calling duties from Frazier once 

 

Of course McDermott has a headset and he's communicating.. he's only on record said he's pulled play calling duties once from Frasier 

 

That Infamous game

 

 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

It probably didn't work as much as you think. The Cover1 guys broke down LB coverage in man vs zone looks, Edmunds was average in zone coverage based on EPA.

 

 

 

 

 

Admit it,  you were surprised he was just average in zone coverage.

 

The way some talk up the impact of his length you would ASSUME that zone coverage would be a strength.

 

But in reality, anything generally associated with "instinctive" play at the MLB position has been a weakness for Edmunds.

 

He has been credited by some as a big difference maker in the passing game that teams are afraid to throw near.........and yet he had a 114 passer rating against and 4 TD passes allowed last season.

 

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Admit it,  you were surprised he was just average in zone coverage.

 

The way some talk up the impact of his length you would ASSUME that zone coverage would be a strength.

 

But in reality, anything generally associated with "instinctive" play at the MLB position has been a weakness for Edmunds.

 

He has been credited by some as a big difference maker in the passing game that teams are afraid to throw near.........and yet he had a 114 passer rating against and 4 TD passes allowed last season.

 

It's surprising when you see that at first glance, but when you think about his responsibilities it makes sense.  In zone Edmunds is often responsible for TEs and slot wideouts in the Tampa2 style dropback where they have him cover the middle and underneath, and almost every LB in the game loses vs TEs and slot receivers...whereas in man his key is almost always the RB and he is always a favorite to win that matchup.

[GunnerBill]

There was some crazy stat about Milano in coverage that Sal C had in his end of season write up last year when looking at which contracts the Bills might want to address. It was something like the Bills give up 0.9 more yards per pass without Milano on the field than with him and that differential was the largest in the NFL by a significant distance. Would love to find the exact stat again. 

4 hours ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

That is bull I know there is several times one the Seatle game.  Mcdermott believes in the Double A gap blitz on third down.  Frazier does not Frazier defense is the same as Dave Wannstedt defense nothing special no blitzing at all. 

 

McDermott did not take play calling away in that Seattle game. Where are you getting that from?

[BringBackFlutie]

9 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:

The Double A gap comes from Fritz Shurmur. Jim Johnson learned it (along with the big nickel) from him in Arizona. It’s a 4-3 variation of Shurmur’s “eagle defense”. LeBeau started incorporating it when the Steelers got Kevin Greene. It’s actually kind of fascinating to track the evolution of some of these schemes. 

😲

 

Awesome.  Thanks.

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

It's surprising when you see that at first glance, but when you think about his responsibilities it makes sense.  In zone Edmunds is often responsible for TEs and slot wideouts in the Tampa2 style dropback where they have him cover the middle and underneath, and almost every LB in the game loses vs TEs and slot receivers...whereas in man his key is almost always the RB and he is always a favorite to win that matchup.

 

 

Yeah, the "he can cover receivers like a CB" thing has never really materialized.

 

He tends to be more physically gifted than the vast majority of TE's and of course has a huge range advantage on the average Y receiver............but in zone the lack of instinctive reaction always shows up.  

 

And that's just the coverage aspect..........in terms of taking advantage of playmaking opportunities in the passing game he's lost.

 

Teams have caught on now........that's why the same level of awareness produced diminishing returns last season.

 

Now man coverage...........that's something he can do.

 

Which is really what he always should have been doing..........simple responsibilities and beat the man in front of him..........it's a shame to waste his talent the way they have.

 

Hopefully a switch kicks on this season but the practice work and preseason games I saw and all the reports from camp(or lack thereof) indicate nothing has changed. 

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah, the "he can cover receivers like a CB" thing has never really materialized.

 

He tends to be more physically gifted than the vast majority of TE's and of course has a huge range advantage on the average Y receiver............but in zone the lack of instinctive reaction always shows up.  

 

And that's just the coverage aspect..........in terms of taking advantage of playmaking opportunities in the passing game he's lost.

 

Teams have caught on now........that's why the same level of awareness produced diminishing returns last season.

 

Now man coverage...........that's something he can do.

 

Which is really what he always should have been doing..........simple responsibilities and beat the man in front of him..........it's a shame to waste his talent the way they have.

 

Hopefully a switch kicks on this season but the practice work and preseason games I saw and all the reports from camp(or lack thereof) indicate nothing has changed. 

I've always wondered why Milano rather than Edmunds is our designated matchup for big, athletic TEs like Kelce. Edmunds should be, like, the perfect laboratory-grown matchup for that, no? being so long and fast. I always just figured they feel he doesn't have the ability to cover man-to-man at a high level, otherwise why has he not been that guy for the last 3 years?

Edited September 3, 2021 by 2020 Our Year For Sure

[Solomon Grundy]

I still think that in order to beat Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes, the Bills has to be able to collapse the pocket from the middle. Hopefully with the return of Star, the Bills are able to push the interior to make QBs run into the rush coming from Hughes/Groot and Co.

[Buffalo716]

4 hours ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

I've always wondered why Milano rather than Edmunds is our designated matchup for big, athletic TEs like Kelce. Edmunds should be, like, the perfect laboratory-grown matchup for that, no? being so long and fast. I always just figured they feel he doesn't have the ability to cover man-to-man at a high level, otherwise why has he not been that guy for the last 3 years?

It's just a formation thing. Edmunds is on TEs occasionally in man but that's just not his responsibility

 

He has a responsibility for a gap and a man and playing the tight end while keeping responsibility of his Gap, is insanely difficult 

 

The WILL is basically over his Gap and TE already

 

 

 

[Buffalo716]

First 3rd down attempt and dual A gap!