The Importance Of Balance For The OL

[Bill from NYC]

On 5/6/2021 at 12:36 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

There aren't any RB's on the Bills roster as slow as Terrell Davis.

 

Style-wise Antonio Williams is the most like TD on the Bills roster........but a lot faster.....4.52 versus TD's woeful 4.72.

 

If the Bills are indeed going to stick with OZ then you don't need a dynamic talent at RB to put up big production.   

 

49ers went to the SB a couple years ago with their top 2 backs being UDFA's.........Breida being one of them.

 

Funny how nobody was crying that Shanahan should be drafting a RB in round 1.

 

I get that people don't trust Daboll to execute the system as well as a Shanny but it's the same style of running game. 

@BADOLBILZ if the Bills OL is "good" at pass protection and "poor" at run blocking, why is this the case? Run blocking would seem much easier for offensive linemen than pass blocking simply because the offense knows the snap count and fires out at the defense, no? 

In college, the gigantic blockers like Mike Williams or Deonte Brown (364 pounds from Alabama) are easily able to out muscle defenders on running plays. I get it that doing so is MUCH harder than in the NFL but I still don't understand how run blocking can be a weakness. 

The following is my list of possible explanations:

 

1) A smaller number of holding calls so the NFL can provide more high scoring games and protect QBs, making pass blocking easier.

2) Slow running backs.

3) Physically stronger defenders. This would seem unlikely because LBs are smaller.

4) Small or poor running backs.

5) Allen's great mobility.

6) Allen's quick release?

 

All of the best offensive linemen I have ever seen were great at run blocking. This includes Tackles, Guards and Centers. 

 

I don't understand.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Bill from NYC

[machine gun kelly]

Breida should be a nice addition, but it’s not that we need to run 48-50% of the time.  It’s just when they want to run, they need to do it effectively.  I know I’m in the minority, but I think Ford may be a nice add for the running game.  He was never supposed to be a tackle.

 

We’ll find out in September.

[HappyDays]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Personally I'd build the line for Josh first and foremost (which largely I think they have tried to) and then find backs that fit that - which to me is speedier, outside zone types. 

 

I hope Breida is a part of the offense this year, and not just Yeldon's replacement on the inactive list. If that means Taiwan Jones has to be inactive or cut, so be it. I don't know why Breida hasn't stuck with a team yet but I'll accept whatever negatives he brings in exchange for his elite speed. He is the one legitimate path I can see to the Bills offense taking another major step forward.

[HOUSE]

Nobody pins ears anymore

[Nihilarian]

Like anything done correctly, it takes quite a bit of practice to perfect a run scheme. If you don't make it a priority... it won't work very well.

 

Green Bay, Seattle HC Mike Holmgren would work a run play to perfection and keep running it over and over until they got it right. 

 

It's rather simple in my view as the Bills don't make the run game a priority enough to have it work as well as it should / could. 

 

Plus, RB's, just like QB's need to find a rhythm in a game as usually the more they run the ball the the better they play. The defense usually wears out chasing the RBs all over the field and by the 4th quarter are panting heavily with their hands on their hips. 

 

 

The current Bills RBs are plenty good enough as Singletary in his first season, in a different run scheme was averaging 5.1 yards a carry (league leading tied with Tenn RB Henry) in 12 games with 151 rush attempts. The other back in 2019 was Frank Gore who averaged 3.6 yards per carry.

 

 2020 saw that Motor average dip to 4.4 YPC (which is still pretty good) over 16 games with 156 rush attempts. 

 

Moss had 112 rush attempts for 4.3 yards per carry in 2020. In 2019 Buffalo had 465 rush attempts, 596 passing attempts-2020 411 rush attempts, 513 passing attempts.

 

The Bills have the talent to run the ball as well as any team. They just need to work to perfect it. JMO

[Doc]

 

[Rockinon]

2 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Like anything done correctly, it takes quite a bit of practice to perfect a run scheme. If you don't make it a priority... it won't work very well.

 

Green Bay, Seattle HC Mike Holmgren would work a run play to perfection and keep running it over and over until they got it right. 

 

It's rather simple in my view as the Bills don't make the run game a priority enough to have it work as well as it should / could. 

 

Plus, RB's, just like QB's need to find a rhythm in a game as usually the more they run the ball the the better they play. The defense usually wears out chasing the RBs all over the field and by the 4th quarter are panting heavily with their hands on their hips. 

 

 

The current Bills RBs are plenty good enough as Singletary in his first season, in a different run scheme was averaging 5.1 yards a carry (league leading tied with Tenn RB Henry) in 12 games with 151 rush attempts. The other back in 2019 was Frank Gore who averaged 3.6 yards per carry.

 

 2020 saw that Motor average dip to 4.4 YPC (which is still pretty good) over 16 games with 156 rush attempts. 

 

Moss had 112 rush attempts for 4.3 yards per carry in 2020. In 2019 Buffalo had 465 rush attempts, 596 passing attempts-2020 411 rush attempts, 513 passing attempts.

 

The Bills have the talent to run the ball as well as any team. They just need to work to perfect it. JMO

Good post. The run game is as much a team effort as passing. Last year the pass game took off like a rocket because there was a major effort to make it so. I really believe the Bills will solve the rushing issues by simply practicing more. Of course, adding to the depth on the OL will help too. People who are down on Singletary really don't WTF they are talking about. The kid is good. Real good.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

@BADOLBILZ if the Bills OL is "good" at pass protection and "poor" at run blocking, why is this the case? Run blocking would seem much easier for offensive linemen than pass blocking simply because the offense knows the snap count and fires out at the defense, no? 

In college, the gigantic blockers like Mike Williams or Deonte Brown (364 pounds from Alabama) are easily able to out muscle defenders on running plays. I get it that doing so is MUCH harder than in the NFL but I still don't understand how run blocking can be a weakness. 

The following is my list of possible explanations:

 

1) A smaller number of holding calls so the NFL can provide more high scoring games and protect QBs, making pass blocking easier.

2) Slow running backs.

3) Physically stronger defenders. This would seem unlikely because LBs are smaller.

4) Small or poor running backs.

5) Allen's great mobility.

6) Allen's quick release?

 

All of the best offensive linemen I have ever seen were great at run blocking. This includes Tackles, Guards and Centers. 

 

I don't understand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Playing outside zone for OL is demanding athletically.   The Bills seemed to have chosen to go that way last season because it's less complicated assignment-wise and allowed them to play more up-tempo in their passing game.    If you remember the previously dominant run blocking Bills OL in 2017 weren''t really up to it athletically either when Dennison was running it. 

 

Think back to those old 90's Niners and Broncos lines under Mike Shanahan.......they were smaller and athletic.    As has been pointed out by others, the Bills OL is kind of a hodgepodge athletically.   You don't necessarily have to be that athletic to be a good pass blocker though if you have good length, technique and footwork.

 

Spencer Brown is athletically kind of a "have your cake and eat it too" kind of outside zone blocking prospect for the Bills.    In theory he's the $50 uber ride to get around in pass pro but he's also very good at getting outside quickly to block.   Maybe the best downfield blocking OT prospect in this class.    In theory Forest Lamp is another guy who should be able to be quicker than any of their other guards to get into his block in outside zone.   Not sure about his pass pro stoutness though,   if you watch the Efe Obada highlights one of the biggest hits he got last year was a complete whiff at Lamp's expense.   Guess we will see.

[stinky finger]

I agree with the concept of OL balance. 

 

A good offense should be able to dictate. The ability to run or pass effectively at will is what we should strive for. 

On 5/6/2021 at 8:05 AM, JohnBonhamRocks said:

If you don’t have balance on the offensive line, then you get knocked over.

 

But for real, yes a more balanced offense would likely help keep defenses guessing. We do use a ton of play action. 

 

yessir.

 

And to maximize the effectiveness of PA, we need to run more efficiently.  

[stinky finger]

On 5/6/2021 at 8:22 AM, Dont Stop Billeiving said:

I'm likely higher on the addition of Matt Breida than most, but his elite speed should force defenses to respect the possibility of off-tackle runs unlike last season where they could cheat inside. Hoping he can stay healthy and get a handful of snaps each game.

 

Hear, hear!

 

I, too, am excited about what MB could bring to this offense. 

[stinky finger]

On 5/6/2021 at 8:27 AM, SoCal Deek said:

The Bills have a decision to make this offseason. They can choose to ignore the run and say we’re going all in on a passing attack because that’s our strength ...or they can spend the summer fixing what didn’t work, the running game. There’s only so many practice sessions and preseason games to get it done. I place this squarely in the lap of the OC and I’m hoping he chooses the latter. There’s no savior draft pick or free agent coming to ignite the run game. As Gene Hackman told the fans, players and their parents in Hoosiers “This is your team!” It’s time to get to work Brian.

 

 

Is there really a decision to make? Ignoring the the run would be fool-hardy. They just need to commit.  

 

[stinky finger]

On 5/6/2021 at 9:44 AM, 4BillsintheBurgh said:

Just a couple thoughts:

I'll be surprised if Bates makes it this year due to the rookies. They didn't seem to want to use him last year when they could have and we don't need the jack of all trades now since we (hopefully) have decent depth on the inside and outside.

 

I guess they have moved away from the fullback role, nary a peep has come out about trying to acquire one. It's now all about the pass first it looks like.

 

I'm also not going to be surprised if Brieda is getting most of the carries this year. With the athletic oline you'd think we'd want to get on the outside more and I don't think Moss and Singletary have the juice to get there consistently.

 

As long as we have JA, we'll be pass heavy. We just can't become predictable. Brieda and Moss can be effective catching passes out of the backfield. We need to use either regardless of down and distance. Keep defense guessing. 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

5 hours ago, inaugural balls said:

 

 

Is there really a decision to make? Ignoring the the run would be fool-hardy. They just need to commit.  

 

It’s all up to Daboll. There were so so many times last season where it looked like they were just wasting a down running the ball right into a wall. I’m praying that it wasn’t acceptable to him. 

[WideNine]

On 5/6/2021 at 5:27 AM, SoCal Deek said:

The Bills have a decision to make this offseason. They can choose to ignore the run and say we’re going all in on a passing attack because that’s our strength ...or they can spend the summer fixing what didn’t work, the running game. There’s only so many practice sessions and preseason games to get it done. I place this squarely in the lap of the OC and I’m hoping he chooses the latter. There’s no savior draft pick or free agent coming to ignite the run game. As Gene Hackman told the fans, players and their parents in Hoosiers “This is your team!” It’s time to get to work Brian.

 

I think some folks struggle with the concept that you can run to open the pass, especially with a QB like Allen.

 

When teams are playing 2 safeties deep or 3-deep shell with a SS in run/pass support, Allen can dink and dunk against that, but his deep options are limited.

 

But to turn that arm loose, it would be in our interest to get teams into more of a single high safety look where one of our receivers is more likely to break free deep or be covered 1:1.

 

The way to do that is to gash teams with runs to force them out of those 2-3 deep safety zone looks and open up space for Allen to use that arm. If that SS has to keep coming up in run support your play action will work to open space behind their under defenders.

 

The onus is on Daboll too, to stay committed and not abandon the run too quickly and our line and TEs have to block better.

 

I do think all pass pro is hard on oline players. Think of teams that fall so far behind where defenses know they have to pass to catch up.

 

Defenders pin their ears back on their pass rush, and that is usually where the sacks and turnovers start to pile up.

 

IMO the only reason things have not been worse for the Bills is that DE's have had to put on the brakes and have some discipline setting the edges on their rush as Josh is a threat to escape and run it himself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by WideNine

[GunnerBill]

17 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Playing outside zone for OL is demanding athletically.   The Bills seemed to have chosen to go that way last season because it's less complicated assignment-wise and allowed them to play more up-tempo in their passing game.    If you remember the previously dominant run blocking Bills OL in 2017 weren''t really up to it athletically either when Dennison was running it. 

 

Think back to those old 90's Niners and Broncos lines under Mike Shanahan.......they were smaller and athletic.    As has been pointed out by others, the Bills OL is kind of a hodgepodge athletically.   You don't necessarily have to be that athletic to be a good pass blocker though if you have good length, technique and footwork.

 

Spencer Brown is athletically kind of a "have your cake and eat it too" kind of outside zone blocking prospect for the Bills.    In theory he's the $50 uber ride to get around in pass pro but he's also very good at getting outside quickly to block.   Maybe the best downfield blocking OT prospect in this class.    In theory Forest Lamp is another guy who should be able to be quicker than any of their other guards to get into his block in outside zone.   Not sure about his pass pro stoutness though,   if you watch the Efe Obada highlights one of the biggest hits he got last year was a complete whiff at Lamp's expense.   Guess we will see.

 

Yep. Definitely felt to me like they decided last year, Josh is ready, we are going to prioritise the pass game and if that means tweaking the run game in ways we are not particularly well set up for so be it. The collection of OL and backs they have currently are not great compliments for each other in my view. Breida is a much better fit for what it seems they want to do.... I'm interested in you saying you feel the same about Moss. I like Moss in a zone scheme but I think you'd want to incorporate more inside zone to really see the best of him. Singletary is not, to my view a very natural fit in the offense they seem to be moving to. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by GunnerBill

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. Definitely felt to me like they decided last year, Josh is ready, we are going to prioritise the pass game and if that means tweaking the run game in ways we are not particularly well set up for so be it. The collection of OL and backs they have currently are not great compliments for each other in my view. Breida is a much better fit for what it seems they want to do.... I'm interested in you saying you feel the same about Moss. I like Moss in a zone scheme but I think you'd want to incorporate more inside zone to really see the best of him. Singletary is not, to my view a very natural fit in the offense they seem to be moving to. 

 

 

Yeah their RB's and OL are a hodgepodge of players who best fit different styles.

 

But much like I look at the DL moves since last August and see a team that seems to want to use 4 pass rushers most of the time..............I see the moves they made this offseason and all the new acquisitions seem to fit the outside zone run scheme.

 

I'd prefer inside zone.   Moss would be better there,  but he is familiar with outside zone so he seems more comfortable than Singletary was.   I was a big fan of it when Roman/Lynn were here.    

 

And I'd also prefer the passing offense to be more vertical.   I am a huge fan of the deep ball and big plays and I believe getting Stefon Diggs tackled hard by downhill pursuing defenders 100+ times per year is at best a recipe for a diminished WR corps in January......and also isn't how you want to use an investment like that, ideally.

 

But they seem to want to run outside zone and throw a high volume of short to intermediate passes.

 

It worked last year,  so I've adjusted my expectations to what I think they will do.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah their RB's and OL are a hodgepodge of players who best fit different styles.

 

But much like I look at the DL moves since last August and see a team that seems to want to use 4 pass rushers most of the time..............I see the moves they made this offseason and all the new acquisitions seem to fit the outside zone run scheme.

 

I'd prefer inside zone.   Moss would be better there,  but he is familiar with outside zone so he seems more comfortable than Singletary was.   I was a big fan of it when Roman/Lynn were here.    

 

And I'd also prefer the passing offense to be more vertical.   I am a huge fan of the deep ball and big plays and I believe getting Stefon Diggs tackled hard by downhill pursuing defenders 100+ times per year is at best a recipe for a diminished WR corps in January......and also isn't how you want to use an investment like that, ideally.

 

But they seem to want to run outside zone and throw a high volume of short to intermediate passes.

 

It worked last year,  so I've adjusted my expectations to what I think they will do.

Then why did they bring back both Boettger and Feliciano? Were there no alternatives that would have been a better fit?

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah their RB's and OL are a hodgepodge of players who best fit different styles.

 

But much like I look at the DL moves since last August and see a team that seems to want to use 4 pass rushers most of the time..............I see the moves they made this offseason and all the new acquisitions seem to fit the outside zone run scheme.

 

I'd prefer inside zone.   Moss would be better there,  but he is familiar with outside zone so he seems more comfortable than Singletary was.   I was a big fan of it when Roman/Lynn were here.    

 

And I'd also prefer the passing offense to be more vertical.   I am a huge fan of the deep ball and big plays and I believe getting Stefon Diggs tackled hard by downhill pursuing defenders 100+ times per year is at best a recipe for a diminished WR corps in January......and also isn't how you want to use an investment like that, ideally.

 

But they seem to want to run outside zone and throw a high volume of short to intermediate passes.

 

It worked last year,  so I've adjusted my expectations to what I think they will do.

 

I know you love the deep ball. I am much more stylistically attuned to the stick moving intermediate throws. I loved the passing game they ran last year. I think there are a few more opportunities for deep balls here and there but there is something about moving down the field drive after drive with 10-20 yard chunk play after chunk play that really demoralises a defense. There were a couple of games in the later half of 2020 where defenses just visibly gave up. There is a place for the deep ball, obviously, and probably a few more of them than we saw at times last year but their passing game was already pretty vertical, they throw beyond the sticks at a much higher rate than most of the league. 

[Old Coot]

They need to have better balance.  The passing O can win them games but they won't win a SB.  By the time you get to the conference finals you face more on-field talent and better coaching.  They'll devise schemes to take away whey we do best.  An example is the conference final against KC.  

 

I think that our running game was more than an afterthought last year.  Daboll changed the style of run blocking in an effort to get more out of the run game.

 

It is a mystery to me how the O line can be good at pass blocking but not run blocking.

[H2o]

3 minutes ago, Old Coot said:

They need to have better balance.  The passing O can win them games but they won't win a SB.  By the time you get to the conference finals you face more on-field talent and better coaching.  They'll devise schemes to take away whey we do best.  An example is the conference final against KC.  

 

I think that our running game was more than an afterthought last year.  Daboll changed the style of run blocking in an effort to get more out of the run game.

 

It is a mystery to me how the O line can be good at pass blocking but not run blocking.

I think it was Schlereth on one of those ESPN shows who talked about run blocking being a mindset. One that is developed in TC and worked on throughout the preseason. He said it's not just something that your team just picks up and decides to do. I believe pass blocking is more read and react where you pay attention to the OL calls then read your keys to pick up the right guys. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. Definitely felt to me like they decided last year, Josh is ready, we are going to prioritise the pass game and if that means tweaking the run game in ways we are not particularly well set up for so be it. The collection of OL and backs they have currently are not great compliments for each other in my view. Breida is a much better fit for what it seems they want to do.... I'm interested in you saying you feel the same about Moss. I like Moss in a zone scheme but I think you'd want to incorporate more inside zone to really see the best of him. Singletary is not, to my view a very natural fit in the offense they seem to be moving to. 

 

The problem with the outside zone wasn't always the backs or speed at all.  Williams, Knox, Feliciano, morse were all struggling in outside zone.  I just felt like the weakside backer was constantly coming in unblocked at an angle to disrupt the play.  

 

I'm not sold on singletary, but he was dynamic in 2019.  This season it felt like the running attack was always kind of stuck in the mud regardless of the back.  

[GunnerBill]

Just now, dneveu said:

 

The problem with the outside zone wasn't always the backs or speed at all.  Williams, Knox, Feliciano, morse were all struggling in outside zone.  I just felt like the weakside backer was constantly coming in unblocked at an angle to disrupt the play.  

 

I'm not sold on singletary, but he was dynamic in 2019.  This season it felt like the running attack was always kind of stuck in the mud regardless of the back.  

 

I didn't say it was always the speed of the backs. I think it was the slightly incoherent mix of skillsets in the backs, the blockers and the scheme. I don't but the blame on any one unit.