Who thinks teaching is a hard job?

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

New poll

[Doc Brown]

Are we talking elementary or secondary teachers?

[Orlando Tim]

Teaching is very different than other jobs so it is hard to compare directly since to be good at teaching you have to be emotionally invested. I was good at several jobs in the finance sector because I did not get emotional, it was money flowing and nothing else mattered. 

[T master]

OMG !!! My wife owns a day care and seeing the way parents today parent is just unreal they would rather be on FB or Twitter doing social media BS than being a parent and leave parenting up to the teachers & some go as far as wanting the gov't to tell them how to parent .

 

Discipline due to the consequences for your actions is a thing of the past just take away a toy or sit in time out then the teachers are left to deal with the unruly disrespect of a child but are expected to treat the child as mommies little angel that would do nothing wrong . WTH .

 

One child my wife had while in her care the parent was told 100's of times that she needed to help with the child's unruliness usually on a daily basis while at day care red cards every other day . 

 

He went on to kindergarten and while walking in line down the hall he pulls the fire alarm (this was with in the first 2 weeks of kindergarten) when brought to the principles office accompanied by the mother her response was, "seeing as there was a fire alarm on that side of the hall don't you think the teacher should walk the class on the other side of the hall way" 🙄 modern day parenting .

 

The following week the same kid kicked another boy in the groin hard enough he went to the floor while standing waiting to go to the bath room i was hoping the kid he kicked (after he got up off the floor) would have stood up & punched him right in the mouth IMHO he had every right to !!

 

 Right or wrong the kid wouldn't have done that to him again because the mom sure as hell isn't teaching him any thing & that's just the first 2 weeks .

 

Then we wonder why these young people go out and shoot and kill others they are raised with no consequences to their actions and little to no discipline at all . I really feel for the teachers and they need to be paid like some of these Pro Football players to put up with the BS they do ...

[Unforgiven]

Teaching wouldn't be too hard if parents weren't crappy.

[SoCal Deek]

I’m not sure what this is about. Most, if not all, work is hard in its own way. That’s why it’s called work. Try digging ditches, picking fruit, saving lives in a hospital, chasing criminals, running into a burning building, etc. If the point is to suggest that teachers aren’t paid enough I would disagree. Our society pays people what our society has decided the work is worth. That’s true for all jobs. (Except of course for the Kardashian’s...nobody knows what those people are about!)

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m not sure what this is about. Most, if not all, work is hard in its own way. That’s why it’s called work. Try digging ditches, picking fruit, saving lives in a hospital, chasing criminals, running into a burning building, etc. If the point is to suggest that teachers aren’t paid enough I would disagree. Our society pays people what our society has decided the work is worth. That’s true for all jobs. (Except of course for the Kardashian’s...nobody knows what those people are about!)

That would’ve been a better poll question. 
 

My real curiosity is are people generally ok with covid relief going to teachers bonuses because they are underpaid anyway. 
 

since the poll is overwhelmingly yes, I suspect that people are ok with it, so therefore I need to be to.  

[GaryPinC]

  All I know is if I were a teacher I would be so deeply appreciative to have all the school holidays, 2 week winter break, one week spring break, and 10 weeks or so off every summer while still getting 10 days or so for sick/personal time and all while earning a good living.  You'd never hear me complain to non-teachers no matter how hard the students, job, etc. are.

 

Back in 2014 out of curiosity, I found my son's second grade teacher, in Ohio with a master's degree, was paid 86,000 a year.  So count me as one who believes they get paid plenty.

 

Then there's things like the second Covid dose this year.  School did it on Wednesday, gave everyone Thursday off for any side effects.  Of course early Thursday afternoon get a call from the district that too many teachers, bus drivers, staff felt they'd be too sick to work Friday so we took that day off too.  Wouldn't schedule that on Thursday or even Friday because it might bleed into their weekend.

 

 

 

 

[BillStime]

I love all these comments about teacher salaries from people who likely never stepped a foot in their shoes in a classroom.

 

Teachers deserve their time off; as their jobs are endless during the school year. They also spend their own money for supplies that likely benefit YOUR CHILDREN.

 

Why Teachers Should be Payed More

 

Here's how much every US state pays its teachers and how much they spend on each student

 

 

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

34 minutes ago, BillStime said:

I love all these comments about teacher salaries from people who likely never stepped a foot in their shoes in a classroom.

 

Teachers deserve their time off; as their jobs are endless during the school year. They also spend their own money for supplies that likely benefit YOUR CHILDREN.

 

Why Teachers Should be Payed More

 

Here's how much every US state pays its teachers and how much they spend on each student

 

 

 

 

 

oh the horror, think people whose are just endless, during a the quarter of the year called summer too. 

 

issue with teaching among the many I know, is little differentiation or meritocracy in compensation structure so it’s disenfranchising.

 

My gym teacher and soccer coach in 1992 made $78k, in Buffalo suburbs. that pretty sweet for keeping the dodgeballs inflated and occasionally blowing a whistle. 
 

[BillStime]

4 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

oh the horror, think people whose are just endless, during a the quarter of the year called summer too. 

 

issue with teaching among the many I know, is little differentiation or meritocracy in compensation structure so it’s disenfranchising.

 

My gym teacher and soccer coach in 1992 made $78k, in Buffalo suburbs. that pretty sweet for keeping the dodgeballs inflated and occasionally blowing a whistle. 
 

 

I call bullshitttt on your gym teacher making $78K in 1992.

 

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d95/dtab078.asp

 

 

You know teacher salaries are public information, right?

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

19 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

I call bullshitttt on your gym teacher making $78K in 1992.

 

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d95/dtab078.asp

 

 

You know teacher salaries are public information, right?

That’s How I found it, it was actually published in a newspaper I think. I might be misremembering, Williamsville south positive it was in the 70’s. 

The athletic director was six figures. 

[oldmanfan]

One of my bucket list things is to do a commencement address for a college or high school graduating class.  And in that, I would recognize some outstanding teachers I've had over the years.  It is a hard job; I have a niece that teaches elementary school and the hours she puts in are insane.  I teach part time at a local university and medical school, and even for that I have to put in a lot of time in lesson preparation and such.

 

The other thing I would stress in a commencement address are work ethic and personal responsibility.  The teachers I've had and the ones I teach with now by and large have both.  The students?  Not so much.  I think the biggest failures in our society right now are a lack of work ethic, and a lack of personal accountability and responsibility.  Too many students don't study hard, and there are way too many parents that enable their kids and look to blame the teacher instead of their kid.

[716er]

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m not sure what this is about. 

 

OP is hating on teachers and trying to dox one in the stimulus thread. 

Trying to get others to band with, I assume.

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by 716er

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

14 minutes ago, 716er said:

 

OP is hating on teachers and trying to dox one in the stimulus thread. 

Trying to get others to band with, I assume.

 

No really not. I explained above. I used the this poll to help rationalize acceptance of stimulus money being paid out as bonuses.
 

Not trying to band anything. I was curious what the community thought. And the conclusion is overwhelming and indisputable. 
 

Poll to me validates it’s appropriate, so I need to accept it is too. 
 

As for that thread, yeah, got sucked in. Mea culpa. I won’t be engaging that one again. 

[SoTier]

 

2 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

  All I know is if I were a teacher I would be so deeply appreciative to have all the school holidays, 2 week winter break, one week spring break, and 10 weeks or so off every summer while still getting 10 days or so for sick/personal time and all while earning a good living.  You'd never hear me complain to non-teachers no matter how hard the students, job, etc. are.

 

Back in 2014 out of curiosity, I found my son's second grade teacher, in Ohio with a master's degree, was paid 86,000 a year.  So count me as one who believes they get paid plenty.

 

Then there's things like the second Covid dose this year.  School did it on Wednesday, gave everyone Thursday off for any side effects.  Of course early Thursday afternoon get a call from the district that too many teachers, bus drivers, staff felt they'd be too sick to work Friday so we took that day off too.  Wouldn't schedule that on Thursday or even Friday because it might bleed into their weekend.

 

 

 

 

 

Spoken like somebody who has never ventured into a school except under duress.   As a former teacher who traded all those days off and "fat" paychecks and benies for a "regular" job in IT, I can say from experience that teachers' time off and renumeration are greatly overvalued by those not in the trenches.    Teachers' days don't end when they walk out of school because they bring work home with them, usually lesson plans that need to be created/revised or papers to correct.   Many of the days or half days when students are not in the classroom, teachers are attending meetings and "in-service" training sessions. 

 

Most parents have found out this past year how hard it is to deal with only their own children all day, every day, when their kids aren't particularly interested in doing something.  Multiply that several times over for teachers and add into the mix the natural tendency for not all people (including children) to get along with one another.  That's not even counting the kids who may come to school with other issues that influence their behavior or the administrators who decide to micro-manage how the curriculum is taught or a colleague who always manages to get under your skin or how warm, sunny days can distract even the best students.

 

My guess is that you wouldn't last a day.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

This is an interesting topic, glad you started it.  I think it gives us the opportunity to reset a bit from the haymakers thrown at each other.  Just yesterday @transplantbillsfan implied/inferred that I had a major issue with the NY public school system.  To be fair, I can understand why he might feel that way.  Between thoughts exchanged, the occasional busting of chops and some personal feelings I have on this subject, I can understand his perspective although that's not accurate.   

 

First--we start at the beginning.  I have a healthy respect and admiration for any person undertaking an honest days work for an honest days pay.  Janitor, dentist, Walmart greeter, postman, civil servant, construction worker, plumber and of course, teacher.    I've benefitted from some excellent experiences with teachers/professors/coaches, I appreciate the time and effort they put in, but for me it was always less about the job of being a "teacher", more about the individual.  As with every other walk of life, I've encountered my share of average to apathetic teachers, and a precious few were just nasty people. Most weigh in at just about average.  

 

For me, it's not so much about teaching being 'hard', it's about it not being easy.  As Deek pointed out, there are many. many professions that I personally would consider 'hard', and teaching doesn't fall into that category.  I have a family member who works for UPS, and I would classify what he does as hard.  Long hours. The occasional difficult customer. Very difficult management structure.  The cumulative tens of thousands of jackasses on the road each and every day playing frogger with a big old box truck.  On the other hand, he'd probably tell you he is well-compensated and he rarely if ever actually complains about it.  Before insulting anyone, let me also state that teaching isn't easy.  

 

Part of the challenge is that regardless of what the individual teacher might want to believe, the reality in NY is that it's a benefit rich job with virtual cradle to grave entitlements and as a result, with funding by way of school tax going directly from taxpayer to teacher (at least in part) and the expectation is that the service provided should be exceptional.  Whether it is or isn't is in the eye of the beholder, one would assume that a non-teacher will have a different perspective on what success looks like than a teacher will.  

 

My own thought process is that far too often, the tail wags the dog.  A few years ago, our district was looking to do some improvements, add some teachers, upgrade a computer lab and so on.  The cost of the project was $34,000,000, but the district included a $9,000,000 slush fund 'just in case', and incredibly advised voters that if the money wasn't needed, it would just be used for whatever else the district thought made sense.  Just prior to the referendum, a number of concerned citizens conducted a grass roots campaign to defeat the referendum, and it worked.  The superintendent was disappointed and felt the vote was mischaracterized, but as far as I can tell, all that happened was a light was shined on the district and some questionable business practices were revealed.  

 

I'd think--like most jobs--a relatively small percentage of the general population can be a successful teacher.   The offshoot  (NY specific) is that compensation is good, benefits exceptional and career shelf life very attractive.  30 years and out, retirement at 55, a financial obligation on the tax payer to fund the retiree for another 32 years (actuarily speaking) at a cost of a couple million dollars before we even talk about health care is an awesome package--but ultimately unsustainable.  

 

By the way--another issue that drives frustration for me on this subject...with business large and small struggling to simply stay afloat during the pandemic, and scores of businesses (often the enemy of the left) doing their level best to give back, forgive, reassess and reallocate to help the American people...I found it quite telling that when it came time to pay the tax bill to fund the government, the ONLY accommodation made was that the local town tax offices had reduced (or non-existent) hours to serve the public.   To boot--tax was due, on time, postmark date required under penalty/threat of law.  That's just the system we live in, and it's part of the reason there can be some animosity directed towards it. 

 

That is all. 

 

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

 

Spoken like somebody who has never ventured into a school except under duress.   As a former teacher who traded all those days off and "fat" paychecks and benies for a "regular" job in IT, I can say from experience that teachers' time off and renumeration are greatly overvalued by those not in the trenches.    Teachers' days don't end when they walk out of school because they bring work home with them, usually lesson plans that need to be created/revised or papers to correct.   Many of the days or half days when students are not in the classroom, teachers are attending meetings and "in-service" training sessions. 

 

Most parents have found out this past year how hard it is to deal with only their own children all day, every day, when their kids aren't particularly interested in doing something.  Multiply that several times over for teachers and add into the mix the natural tendency for not all people (including children) to get along with one another.  That's not even counting the kids who may come to school with other issues that influence their behavior or the administrators who decide to micro-manage how the curriculum is taught or a colleague who always manages to get under your skin or how warm, sunny days can distract even the best students.

 

My guess is that you wouldn't last a day.

Humbly, I suggest that you may have lacked the temperament to be an effective teacher over the long haul. 

[Doc Brown]

I'd rather be a hot tar roofer than an elementary school teacher.  Middle or high school teachers have a very easy job.

[Sundancer]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

Teachers' days don't end when they walk out of school because they bring work home with them, 

Like most of us. 
 

I don’t get summers and massive other holidays though. Stop with the teacher whining. 
 

They have a very important job. It’s hard in its way. It’s got some amazing upside benefits that it’s ok to brag about. 

[SoCal Deek]

4 hours ago, BillStime said:

I love all these comments about teacher salaries from people who likely never stepped a foot in their shoes in a classroom.

 

Teachers deserve their time off; as their jobs are endless during the school year. They also spend their own money for supplies that likely benefit YOUR CHILDREN.

 

Why Teachers Should be Payed More

 

Here's how much every US state pays its teachers and how much they spend on each student

 

 

 

 

Cut the crap!  My wife is a teacher. She is paid very well and knows it. And....the reason they pay for their own supplies is because the teacher's union has decided they would rather have the money now, and invested into their lifelong pensions. Your complaint shouldn't be with the public...it should be with your union! 

[transplantbillsfan]

16 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

New poll

 

I really got under your skin, didn't I? 

[B-Man]

 

K-12 IMPLOSION UPDATE: 

Once Held Hostage By Teachers’ Unions, West Virginia Just Passed The Nation’s Broadest School Choice Law:

 

For a state that couldn’t pass a modest measure on Education Savings Accounts just two years ago, it’s a breathtaking turnaround. What changed?

 

Apparently people aren’t scared of the teachers’ unions anymore, possibly because they’ve blown all their credibility and goodwill on self-serving behavior during the pandemic. “Public opinion polls confirm a major surge last year in support for measures to fund students directly. Remarkably, although these bills are almost exclusively advanced by Republican lawmakers, public support for school choice appears to be evenly distributed across the political spectrum.

 

Last week, one Democrat lawmaker in Kentucky reluctantly crossed the aisle to vote against union interests on school choice, citing overwhelming support from his constituents. . . . Rucker believes the unions’ unyielding stance against school reopening has eroded their support among teachers as well as parents.”

 

 

Homeschooling is way up, too. Fund kids, not institutions.

 

 

https://thefederalist.com/2021/03/25/once-held-hostage-by-teachers-unions-west-virginia-just-passed-sweeping-school-choice-legislation/

[transplantbillsfan]

3 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

K-12 IMPLOSION UPDATE: 

Once Held Hostage By Teachers’ Unions, West Virginia Just Passed The Nation’s Broadest School Choice Law:

 

For a state that couldn’t pass a modest measure on Education Savings Accounts just two years ago, it’s a breathtaking turnaround. What changed?

 

Apparently people aren’t scared of the teachers’ unions anymore, possibly because they’ve blown all their credibility and goodwill on self-serving behavior during the pandemic. “Public opinion polls confirm a major surge last year in support for measures to fund students directly. Remarkably, although these bills are almost exclusively advanced by Republican lawmakers, public support for school choice appears to be evenly distributed across the political spectrum.

 

Last week, one Democrat lawmaker in Kentucky reluctantly crossed the aisle to vote against union interests on school choice, citing overwhelming support from his constituents. . . . Rucker believes the unions’ unyielding stance against school reopening has eroded their support among teachers as well as parents.”

 

 

Homeschooling is way up, too. Fund kids, not institutions.

 

 

https://thefederalist.com/2021/03/25/once-held-hostage-by-teachers-unions-west-virginia-just-passed-sweeping-school-choice-legislation/

 

Weird.  What does this have to do with the OP's original question?  You just that desperate to stand on a soapbox?

[B-Man]

14 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Weird.  What does this have to do with the OP's original question?  You just that desperate to stand on a soapbox?

 

 

No.

 

I voted yes on the question about 10 minutes after he posted it.

 

Besides medicine, I have multiple teachers in my family, including my son.

 

What is "weird" is that on a (supposed)  political message board  you would find an article that discusses how Americans

 

viewpoint on teachers has drastically changed, would not be appropriate in a thread getting our opinion on teachers.

 

 

 

I know that you are not stupid, did you just not read the article,  or are you just that eager to stand on your soapbox ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by B-Man

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

40 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I really got under your skin, didn't I? 

No, but I was an internet tough guy to you...  and shouldn’t have been. It was a poor choice. 

[transplantbillsfan]

33 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

No, but I was an internet tough guy to you...  and shouldn’t have been. It was a poor choice. 

 

Fair enough.  I'm no Saint in the way I act here, either.  I apologize for all those moments I choose to resort to retailiatory mode.

 

That said, as to your question I'll answer from the perspective of being a teacher... and it's more complicated than a simple "yes" or "no."

 

First of all, I really think we would need to define what a "hard job" is.  I worked in a pizza shop both in-shop and delivering pizzas starting my Junior year in High School and all throughout college.  It wasn't "hard" in most respects, but it bored the hell out of me for the most part and made me miserable... especially on the longer shifts.  I remember working a 12 hour shift once doing that and I was just bangin my head against the wall by the end.

 

If I were still doing that as a career today, I would be miserable and would probably characterize it as "hard" for that reason.

 

I think the trick for absolutely ANYONE (this is not a teacher-specific thing) is finding something you love to do and making that your career.  Not everyone is fortunate enough to do that.  In fact, a lot of people aren't.  But if you can find something you love to do... it makes the job easier because even the challenging stuff is enjoyable.  In fact, sometimes it's the challenging stuff that makes the job enjoyable.

 

That's how I feel about teaching.  I meant what I said about knowing I wanted to be a teacher in 9th grade and never changing my mind.  I love my job more and more every year because every year I feel I get better and better even with new challenges mixed in.  This year has been the most difficult year teaching probably since my first year, but even once we finally get back to completely normal, there are a ton of things I can pull from what we've done this year that I'll continue to use moving forward.

 

Teaching is a unique profession.  It just is.  It takes a certain kind of person to be a good teacher.  If you aren't that kind of person, you'll probably burn out of the profession in a few years.  Yes, there are bad teachers out there.  I'm not going to pretend that all teachers feel the same way I do about the profession.  But from my experience most of them really care about their craft and really care about the students.

 

There's a lot more I could put here about this... I thought about bringing in some specific challenges I've confronted throughout the years... but maybe another time for those who are interested.

37 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

No, but I was an internet tough guy to you...  and shouldn’t have been. It was a poor choice. 

 

And I apologize for the semblance of attacking your kids.  That was not my intention.

Edited March 25, 2021 by transplantbillsfan

[GaryPinC]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

 

Spoken like somebody who has never ventured into a school except under duress.   As a former teacher who traded all those days off and "fat" paychecks and benies for a "regular" job in IT, I can say from experience that teachers' time off and renumeration are greatly overvalued by those not in the trenches.    Teachers' days don't end when they walk out of school because they bring work home with them, usually lesson plans that need to be created/revised or papers to correct.   Many of the days or half days when students are not in the classroom, teachers are attending meetings and "in-service" training sessions. 

 

Most parents have found out this past year how hard it is to deal with only their own children all day, every day, when their kids aren't particularly interested in doing something.  Multiply that several times over for teachers and add into the mix the natural tendency for not all people (including children) to get along with one another.  That's not even counting the kids who may come to school with other issues that influence their behavior or the administrators who decide to micro-manage how the curriculum is taught or a colleague who always manages to get under your skin or how warm, sunny days can distract even the best students.

 

My guess is that you wouldn't last a day.

 

Well, sounds like you didn't enjoy teaching, did the smart thing and got out.  Congratulations, glad you truly found a career that better suited you.  Like most jobs, I don't think teaching's easy, but if you love it you find a way to lighten the negatives. 

 

But, so terrible you had to do work at home!  Yah, that's so unique in the working world.  Not!    And so freaking terrible you actually had to come in like normally expected for in-service days while your students get a day off.  🙄  Oh, and so terrible when mild winters deny your snow days!

 

Spending this entire spring teaching my stepson wasn't hard, it was just a lot of time in addition to my regular job (which I was fortunate to still have!).  He's Chinese and is just learning to speak English, so it worked out because I got him caught up where his regular teachers couldn't give him enough attention and were cutting him a break on his responsibilities.  My other kids are in high school, so other than routinely checking in with them it was luckily easy.

 

There's teaching and there's teaching effectively.  Between my years of coaching and the couple friends I have who enjoy teaching, the key is being astute, humble, creative and open enough to learn what works with the kids to become an effective teacher. 

 

Looking at you trying to cry me a river, if I chose it, my guess is I would be more successful at teaching than you because of a difference in focus, perspective, and adaptability.

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, BillStime said:

I love all these comments about teacher salaries from people who likely never stepped a foot in their shoes in a classroom.

 

Teachers deserve their time off; as their jobs are endless during the school year. They also spend their own money for supplies that likely benefit YOUR CHILDREN.

 

Why Teachers Should be Payed More

 

Here's how much every US state pays its teachers and how much they spend on each student

 

 

 

 

The real problem is most teachers haven't stepped out of the classroom enough to realize many of their gripes (including yours) are not unique to the working world.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

39 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Fair enough.  I'm no Saint in the way I act here, either.  I apologize for all those moments I choose to resort to retailiatory mode.

 

That said, as to your question I'll answer from the perspective of being a teacher... and it's more complicated than a simple "yes" or "no."

 

First of all, I really think we would need to define what a "hard job" is.  I worked in a pizza shop both in-shop and delivering pizzas starting my Junior year in High School and all throughout college.  It wasn't "hard" in most respects, but it bored the hell out of me for the most part and made me miserable... especially on the longer shifts.  I remember working a 12 hour shift once doing that and I was just bangin my head against the wall by the end.

 

If I were still doing that as a career today, I would be miserable and would probably characterize it as "hard" for that reason.

 

I think the trick for absolutely ANYONE (this is not a teacher-specific thing) is finding something you love to do and making that your career.  Not everyone is fortunate enough to do that.  In fact, a lot of people aren't.  But if you can find something you love to do... it makes the job easier because even the challenging stuff is enjoyable.  In fact, sometimes it's the challenging stuff that makes the job enjoyable.

 

That's how I feel about teaching.  I meant what I said about knowing I wanted to be a teacher in 9th grade and never changing my mind.  I love my job more and more every year because every year I feel I get better and better even with new challenges mixed in.  This year has been the most difficult year teaching probably since my first year, but even once we finally get back to completely normal, there are a ton of things I can pull from what we've done this year that I'll continue to use moving forward.

 

Teaching is a unique profession.  It just is.  It takes a certain kind of person to be a good teacher.  If you aren't that kind of person, you'll probably burn out of the profession in a few years.  Yes, there are bad teachers out there.  I'm not going to pretend that all teachers feel the same way I do about the profession.  But from my experience most of them really care about their craft and really care about the students.

 

There's a lot more I could put here about this... I thought about bringing in some specific challenges I've confronted throughout the years... but maybe another time for those who are interested.

 

And I apologize for the semblance of attacking your kids.  That was not my intention.

I basically allowed what should have been a conversation which is why I come here to turn into everything I despise about political parties. Mea culpa... 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Oh and I knew that’s how the poll would turn out, because being a good teacher is a very tough job. And most people know it.

[BillStime]

31 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

 

Well, sounds like you didn't enjoy teaching, did the smart thing and got out.  Congratulations, glad you truly found a career that better suited you.  Like most jobs, I don't think teaching's easy, but if you love it you find a way to lighten the negatives. 

 

But, so terrible you had to do work at home!  Yah, that's so unique in the working world.  Not!    And so freaking terrible you actually had to come in like normally expected for in-service days while your students get a day off.  🙄  Oh, and so terrible when mild winters deny your snow days!

 

Spending this entire spring teaching my stepson wasn't hard, it was just a lot of time in addition to my regular job (which I was fortunate to still have!).  He's Chinese and is just learning to speak English, so it worked out because I got him caught up where his regular teachers couldn't give him enough attention and were cutting him a break on his responsibilities.  My other kids are in high school, so other than routinely checking in with them it was luckily easy.

 

There's teaching and there's teaching effectively.  Between my years of coaching and the couple friends I have who enjoy teaching, the key is being astute, humble, creative and open enough to learn what works with the kids to become an effective teacher. 

 

Looking at you trying to cry me a river, if I chose it, my guess is I would be more successful at teaching than you because of a difference in focus, perspective, and adaptability.

 

 

 

 

The real problem is most teachers haven't stepped out of the classroom enough to realize many of their gripes (including yours) are not unique to the working world.

Are you a teacher?

[transplantbillsfan]

7 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

  All I know is if I were a teacher I would be so deeply appreciative to have all the school holidays, 2 week winter break, one week spring break, and 10 weeks or so off every summer while still getting 10 days or so for sick/personal time and all while earning a good living.  You'd never hear me complain to non-teachers no matter how hard the students, job, etc. are.

 

Well we're 10 month employees... so that 10 weeks or so of summer isn't technically "time off."  And if you're wondering how that makes sense teachers then get paid for all 12 months if they're only 10 month employees, it's because we get a percentage extracted from every paycheck during the school year that goes to our summer pay.

 

That's how it works where I live.

 

In some places I've heard teachers can choose to get all their pay in 10 months and not get paid for 2 months so that they get more in each paycheck during the school year.

 

7 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

 

Back in 2014 out of curiosity, I found my son's second grade teacher, in Ohio with a master's degree, was paid 86,000 a year.  So count me as one who believes they get paid plenty.

 

How many years of tenure did this teacher have?

 

$86,000 for a 33 year old teacher who's been teaching 10 years is very different from $86,000 for a 63 year old teacher who's been teaching 40 years.

 

7 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

 

Then there's things like the second Covid dose this year.  School did it on Wednesday, gave everyone Thursday off for any side effects.  Of course early Thursday afternoon get a call from the district that too many teachers, bus drivers, staff felt they'd be too sick to work Friday so we took that day off too.  Wouldn't schedule that on Thursday or even Friday because it might bleed into their weekend.

 

 

Can't speak to this because this wasn't what happened for us.  We were given 2 hours off from work to get a covid vaccination if we needed it.  I scheduled mine for late afternoon on a Friday so I didn't have to take time off.

6 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

oh the horror, think people whose are just endless, during a the quarter of the year called summer too. 

 

issue with teaching among the many I know, is little differentiation or meritocracy in compensation structure so it’s disenfranchising.

 

My gym teacher and soccer coach in 1992 made $78k, in Buffalo suburbs. that pretty sweet for keeping the dodgeballs inflated and occasionally blowing a whistle. 
 

 

One of my best friends is a "gym teacher," and he gets pissed any time you call him that.  He's one of the best teachers I know and does some amazing things with his classes.

 

Also... as I just asked the poster above... how many years of tenure did this teacher have?  Just saying "my teacher made this much" leaves out important context.

 

And finally, I think it's strange that your teachers are talking to you guys about how much money they make.

[transplantbillsfan]

6 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

That’s How I found it, it was actually published in a newspaper I think. I might be misremembering, Williamsville south positive it was in the 70’s. 

The athletic director was six figures. 

 

An athletic director is an adminstrative position similar to a Principal.

 

They make the "big bucks" in schools.  They aren't teachers.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Well we're 10 month employees... so that 10 weeks or so of summer isn't technically "time off."  And if you're wondering how that makes sense teachers then get paid for all 12 months if they're only 10 month employees, it's because we get a percentage extracted from every paycheck during the school year that goes to our summer pay.

 

That's how it works where I live.

 

In some places I've heard teachers can choose to get all their pay in 10 months and not get paid for 2 months so that they get more in each paycheck during the school year.

 

 

How many years of tenure did this teacher have?

 

$86,000 for a 33 year old teacher who's been teaching 10 years is very different from $86,000 for a 63 year old teacher who's been teaching 40 years.

 

 

Can't speak to this because this wasn't what happened for us.  We were given 2 hours off from work to get a covid vaccination if we needed it.  I scheduled mine for late afternoon on a Friday so I didn't have to take time off.

 

One of my best friends is a "gym teacher," and he gets pissed any time you call him that.  He's one of the best teachers I know and does some amazing things with his classes.

 

Also... as I just asked the poster above... how many years of tenure did this teacher have?  Just saying "my teacher made this much" leaves out important context.

 

And finally, I think it's strange that your teachers are talking to you guys about how much money they make.

It was published in the Amherst Bee I think, the guy I recall must have been 20 or so years in. 

[transplantbillsfan]

12 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

It was published in the Amherst Bee I think, the guy I recall must have been 20 or so years in. 

 

20 years in making $78 k sounds reasonable especially for school districts across our country that give annual increments along with things like "PD credits" teachers can earn.

 

I'm 17 years in and making just over $70 k.  I'm one "PD classification" below the highest level so my peak after 17 years would be somewhere around $75 k so that's pretty similar if you're just looking at the numbers without considering location.

 

Of course the suburbs of Buffalo vs. Oahu are very different in terms of how far that money takes you.

[SoCal Deek]

3 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Fair enough.  I'm no Saint in the way I act here, either.  I apologize for all those moments I choose to resort to retailiatory mode.

 

That said, as to your question I'll answer from the perspective of being a teacher... and it's more complicated than a simple "yes" or "no."

 

First of all, I really think we would need to define what a "hard job" is.  I worked in a pizza shop both in-shop and delivering pizzas starting my Junior year in High School and all throughout college.  It wasn't "hard" in most respects, but it bored the hell out of me for the most part and made me miserable... especially on the longer shifts.  I remember working a 12 hour shift once doing that and I was just bangin my head against the wall by the end.

 

If I were still doing that as a career today, I would be miserable and would probably characterize it as "hard" for that reason.

 

I think the trick for absolutely ANYONE (this is not a teacher-specific thing) is finding something you love to do and making that your career.  Not everyone is fortunate enough to do that.  In fact, a lot of people aren't.  But if you can find something you love to do... it makes the job easier because even the challenging stuff is enjoyable.  In fact, sometimes it's the challenging stuff that makes the job enjoyable.

 

That's how I feel about teaching.  I meant what I said about knowing I wanted to be a teacher in 9th grade and never changing my mind.  I love my job more and more every year because every year I feel I get better and better even with new challenges mixed in.  This year has been the most difficult year teaching probably since my first year, but even once we finally get back to completely normal, there are a ton of things I can pull from what we've done this year that I'll continue to use moving forward.

 

Teaching is a unique profession.  It just is.  It takes a certain kind of person to be a good teacher.  If you aren't that kind of person, you'll probably burn out of the profession in a few years.  Yes, there are bad teachers out there.  I'm not going to pretend that all teachers feel the same way I do about the profession.  But from my experience most of them really care about their craft and really care about the students.

 

There's a lot more I could put here about this... I thought about bringing in some specific challenges I've confronted throughout the years... but maybe another time for those who are interested.

 

And I apologize for the semblance of attacking your kids.  That was not my intention.

Transplant we don’t often agree but on this we definitely do. Very well said! I speak at career days in schools on regular basis and I tell the kids: find something you like to do and you won’t work a day in your life.

If you don’t like what you’re paid it’s probably the wrong job for you.

Again: Very Well Said!

[SoTier]

4 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Humbly, I suggest that you may have lacked the temperament to be an effective teacher over the long haul. 

 

Because I pointed out some reasons why teaching is hard, and you don't think it really is?  It's just "not easy" in your view which is, at best a backhanded compliment, that allows you to complain about teacher compensation:

 

Quote

For me, it's not so much about teaching being 'hard', it's about it not being easy.  As Deek pointed out, there are many. many professions that I personally would consider 'hard', and teaching doesn't fall into that category.  I have a family member who works for UPS, and I would classify what he does as hard.  Long hours. The occasional difficult customer. Very difficult management structure.  The cumulative tens of thousands of jackasses on the road each and every day playing frogger with a big old box truck.  On the other hand, he'd probably tell you he is well-compensated and he rarely if ever actually complains about it.  Before insulting anyone, let me also state that teaching isn't easy.  

 

Part of the challenge is that regardless of what the individual teacher might want to believe, the reality in NY is that it's a benefit rich job with virtual cradle to grave entitlements and as a result, with funding by way of school tax going directly from taxpayer to teacher (at least in part) and the expectation is that the service provided should be exceptional.  Whether it is or isn't is in the eye of the beholder, one would assume that a non-teacher will have a different perspective on what success looks like than a teacher will.  

 

FYI, in NYS, teachers need to have a master's degree in order to get their permanent certification, or license to teach.  In order to teach in public schools in NYS -- and get one of those "benefit rich" teaching jobs -- a teacher has to be certified.  Beginning teachers with only bachelor's degrees have 5 years to get their advanced degrees in order to keep their jobs.   This article evaluates the value of master's degree in various occupations in terms of salary (Salaries for Master Degree Holders).  

[Orlando Tim]

7 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

 

Spoken like somebody who has never ventured into a school except under duress.   As a former teacher who traded all those days off and "fat" paychecks and benies for a "regular" job in IT, I can say from experience that teachers' time off and renumeration are greatly overvalued by those not in the trenches.    Teachers' days don't end when they walk out of school because they bring work home with them, usually lesson plans that need to be created/revised or papers to correct.   Many of the days or half days when students are not in the classroom, teachers are attending meetings and "in-service" training sessions. 

 

Most parents have found out this past year how hard it is to deal with only their own children all day, every day, when their kids aren't particularly interested in doing something.  Multiply that several times over for teachers and add into the mix the natural tendency for not all people (including children) to get along with one another.  That's not even counting the kids who may come to school with other issues that influence their behavior or the administrators who decide to micro-manage how the curriculum is taught or a colleague who always manages to get under your skin or how warm, sunny days can distract even the best students.

 

My guess is that you wouldn't last a day.

Dude come off it " in the trenches", teaching is a high effort job but this kind of crap is why teachers are called whiners. You think other jobs don't have micro managers, or things happening beyond their control? I agree the hours outside the classroom are not reimbursed properly but that will happen as long as crap teachers get paid similar to great teachers.

[Orlando Tim]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Fair enough.  I'm no Saint in the way I act here, either.  I apologize for all those moments I choose to resort to retailiatory mode.

 

That said, as to your question I'll answer from the perspective of being a teacher... and it's more complicated than a simple "yes" or "no."

 

First of all, I really think we would need to define what a "hard job" is.  I worked in a pizza shop both in-shop and delivering pizzas starting my Junior year in High School and all throughout college.  It wasn't "hard" in most respects, but it bored the hell out of me for the most part and made me miserable... especially on the longer shifts.  I remember working a 12 hour shift once doing that and I was just bangin my head against the wall by the end.

 

If I were still doing that as a career today, I would be miserable and would probably characterize it as "hard" for that reason.

 

I think the trick for absolutely ANYONE (this is not a teacher-specific thing) is finding something you love to do and making that your career.  Not everyone is fortunate enough to do that.  In fact, a lot of people aren't.  But if you can find something you love to do... it makes the job easier because even the challenging stuff is enjoyable.  In fact, sometimes it's the challenging stuff that makes the job enjoyable.

 

That's how I feel about teaching.  I meant what I said about knowing I wanted to be a teacher in 9th grade and never changing my mind.  I love my job more and more every year because every year I feel I get better and better even with new challenges mixed in.  This year has been the most difficult year teaching probably since my first year, but even once we finally get back to completely normal, there are a ton of things I can pull from what we've done this year that I'll continue to use moving forward.

 

Teaching is a unique profession.  It just is.  It takes a certain kind of person to be a good teacher.  If you aren't that kind of person, you'll probably burn out of the profession in a few years.  Yes, there are bad teachers out there.  I'm not going to pretend that all teachers feel the same way I do about the profession.  But from my experience most of them really care about their craft and really care about the students.

 

There's a lot more I could put here about this... I thought about bringing in some specific challenges I've confronted throughout the years... but maybe another time for those who are interested.

 

And I apologize for the semblance of attacking your kids.  That was not my intention.

I appreciate your viewpoint generally and I doubt I will ever block you because even when you are being vindictive you still at least are trying to prove a point. I will add on point about the low end teachers who don't care- they seem to be the ones who get in front of TV camera to tell everyone what we are owed making it seem that they represent most teachers when I don't think they do.

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I appreciate your viewpoint generally and I doubt I will ever block you because even when you are being vindictive you still at least are trying to prove a point. I will add on point about the low end teachers who don't care- they seem to be the ones who get in front of TV camera to tell everyone what we are owed making it seem that they represent most teachers when I don't think they do.

 

What makes you think it's the low end teachers who are the ones getting in front of the camera?

 

I'm not saying you're wrong because I assume you have your own reasons for saying this.  I just have never actually known any of those teachers who've jumped in front of the camera.  But that's not to say that friends I have who are teachers--and good ones--aren't in agreement with what those publicity hounds are saying. 

[transplantbillsfan]

12 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

For me, it's not so much about teaching being 'hard', it's about it not being easy.  As Deek pointed out, there are many. many professions that I personally would consider 'hard', and teaching doesn't fall into that category.  I have a family member who works for UPS, and I would classify what he does as hard.  Long hours. The occasional difficult customer. Very difficult management structure.  The cumulative tens of thousands of jackasses on the road each and every day playing frogger with a big old box truck.  On the other hand, he'd probably tell you he is well-compensated and he rarely if ever actually complains about it.  Before insulting anyone, let me also state that teaching isn't easy.  

 

And this is ultimately the point, isn't it?  

 

Everyone is looking at every job from an outside perspective.  You relate your view the teaching isn't hard, but working for UPS is.  I'm curious: do you think you're actually qualified to judge whether either job is hard?  If so, why?

 

The truth is I really don't know much about what a UPS worker does.  From a distance, that kinda job doesn't sound all that "hard" in the way I think the OP is asking the question.  It actually sounds similar to the pizza delivery job I used to have.  Get some good podcasts or music and listen to it while spending hours on the road with occasional customer service?  That doesn't sound hard... it sounds boring to me.

 

But boring would equal hard to me.

 

And I'm really not trying to diminish what your family member does.  You only gave me a rough outline and that's what I went with because I don't actually know what they do.

 

But as for teachers... why is it that everyone thinks they know so much about the teaching profession?  Is it because we were all once students and so we saw it firsthand?  Or because we're seeing it now secondhand as parents and we don't see the Einstein we know our children really are being produced so we pin it on the teachers who must be lazy and terrible?

 

I can't speak on being a UPS driver.  But to be a good teacher you need to be good in front of a crowd, have incredible patience, be a great actor, document everything all the time, be a great faciliatator, have your subject matter down, be increasingly creative with curriculuum, etc.

 

All those things and more always applied to teaching, but from my experience teaching is getting harder rather than easier because there are just increasing demands as far as administrations and standardized tests go and there are more and more helicopter parents who automatically believe every word their child tells them nowadays.

 

I said this in another post... I friggin love my job, so I don't like the word "hard."

 

But it's a helluva challenge to be a good teacher.

 

Quote

 

Part of the challenge is that regardless of what the individual teacher might want to believe, the reality in NY is that it's a benefit rich job with virtual cradle to grave entitlements and as a result, with funding by way of school tax going directly from taxpayer to teacher (at least in part) and the expectation is that the service provided should be exceptional.  Whether it is or isn't is in the eye of the beholder, one would assume that a non-teacher will have a different perspective on what success looks like than a teacher will.  

 

So I will say this: I happened upon one of those random state by state rankings as far as teachers go in terms of compensation and NY was #1... so that made me at least start to understand why there are those like you who feel this way about teachers.

 

With that said, I very strongly believe this:  Generally, you get what you pay for.

 

I graduated from a public High School in a suburb of Rochester.  It was honestly a fantastic school and I got a fantastic education and had fantastic extracurricular experiences.  I also know that there were teachers making over $100k at that school... obviously older and closer to retirement, but that's still a lot of money, especially for WNY.

 

But ya know what?  I got an education at one of the best public schools in NY.... so that compensation makes sense to me.

 

So... was that school great because it attracted the best of the best with higher compensation or was there higher compensation because the school district at some point discovered they had great teachers?

 

I tend to think the former is true.

 

Quote

 

My own thought process is that far too often, the tail wags the dog.  A few years ago, our district was looking to do some improvements, add some teachers, upgrade a computer lab and so on.  The cost of the project was $34,000,000, but the district included a $9,000,000 slush fund 'just in case', and incredibly advised voters that if the money wasn't needed, it would just be used for whatever else the district thought made sense.  Just prior to the referendum, a number of concerned citizens conducted a grass roots campaign to defeat the referendum, and it worked.  The superintendent was disappointed and felt the vote was mischaracterized, but as far as I can tell, all that happened was a light was shined on the district and some questionable business practices were revealed.  

 

So cynical.  Why do you automatically assume that "slush fund" wasn't going somewhere useful?

 

One thing that my school was able to do a few years ago with a somewhat similar "slush fund" was get ACs in every single room at our school and get Solar panels on top of our library to power the school.

 

This kinda thing was a fantastic investment.  Hawai'i has the best weather on the planet, but August and September can be brutal (especially in certain schools in leeward locations on the island) and frankly that kinda heat that I taught in--I'm sweating... students are sweating and getting tired because of the weather--simply isn't conducive to student learning.  That's not me.  That's brain research.

 

Maybe your district was going to use that money to fund a drug cartel... I have no clue.  But as I just said, you pay for what you get... so why would bonuses for teachers even have been all that bad?  Because you didn't have kids in school anymore at that point? 

 

The most common argument I see from people pissed about tax dollars going towards education is because they either don't have kids or are sending kids to private schools.

 

Silly... stupid argument.  It's the same silliness you hear from those who don't want to pay any taxes but still want all the benefits of our country.

 

Quote

 

I'd think--like most jobs--a relatively small percentage of the general population can be a successful teacher.   The offshoot  (NY specific) is that compensation is good, benefits exceptional and career shelf life very attractive.  30 years and out, retirement at 55, a financial obligation on the tax payer to fund the retiree for another 32 years (actuarily speaking) at a cost of a couple million dollars before we even talk about health care is an awesome package--but ultimately unsustainable.  

 

So "a relatively small percentage of the general population can be a successful teacher" doesn't make it hard... and you think that's true for most jobs?

 

You're going to have to explain that.

 

So a "relatively small percentage of the general population can be a successful" at almost anything, according to you?

 

So no job is actually hard, according to you?

 

Every single existing job you would just characterize as "not easy..." other than your family member's UPS job, of course. That's hard.

 

Please explain your criteria because I'm sure I'm not the only one confused by some mixed messaging on your part.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by transplantbillsfan