Reduce the size and complexity of the offensive play book

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Do you watch the games?  The formations?  The shifts?  The schemes?  

 

Not being an a**...but if you don't then this thread isn't going to make a lot of sense to you.  

shifting helps identify coverages, some have thought we actually didn't do enough of it vs. KC. What's wrong with the formations and the schemes?

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

shifting helps identify coverages, some have thought we actually didn't do enough of it vs. KC. What's wrong with the formations and the schemes?

 

I already posted that in the OP.  Hes over complicating simple situations.  We are short on personnel and running a deep playbook.  

 

All I said was just shrink the playbook a little bit, and lower the complexity a little bit...while we get healthy.  

Edited October 26, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

They didn't really show much of that play on the broadcast. Did you see the play somewhere?

 

There's a filmclip up on twitter.  Link in the post game thread

 

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I already posted that in the OP.  Hes over complicating simple situations.  We are short on personnel and running a deep playbook.  

 

All I said was just shrink the playbook a little bit, and lower the complexity a little bit...while we get healthy.  

 

I'm just pointing out that leopards don't voluntarily surrender their spots

In the past, Daboll's solution to underwhelming or inadequate personnel has been more trickery dickery, not less

[Hapless Bills Fan]

59 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He probably didn’t check in w his side ref

 

rookie mistake

 

In the video clip posted online, it looks as though he did check in

[MasterStrategist]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Thats not what I said.  I said reduce the complexity and size of the playbook a little bit until our offense is healthy.  Focus on getting a rhythm in the offense.  Because if you think our offense has been in rhythm the last 3 weeks then I dont know what games you have been watching.

 

Man, people fixate on certain words.  I didnt pin this thread only on penalties.  Its like thats all anyone read.  

At least today, we had much better rhythm between the 20s...horrible redzone though.  Agree during the 2 losses, offense had poor rhythm (except 2-3 possessions in that Titans game).  

 

Hard to say if it is playbook complexity, poor execution, or a combo of both.  I agree many players have noted the complexity of our scheme.  However, I have seen Josh and this offense perform like a top 5 offense, weeks 1-4.  Hard to put it all on Josh, but when he misses quick easy throws and starts the games 1-5, or 0-3 that definitely hurts the rhythm.

 

Two things bother me about Daboll:

1.  When Josh is "off", he doesn't adjust.  We need to come into games almost sith a backup gameplan that is more simple, less complex or whatever we want to call it.  Put more pressure on the OL, Rbs in that situation. Run more bootlegs, easier completions to get Josh back into a rhythm.

 

2. Press man: we saw Baltimore, albeit their secondary is outstanding, and Kc/Ten run press man.  Now Bal did it with cover 1, even cover 0 blitzes last year. while Kc especially played a bit of cat/mouse and bailed to cover 2 man.  Either way, I want to see more "bunch" formations, motion, etc that helps our smaller WRs beat the initial jam and get rub routes.  Diggs is our only Wr that I trust to get off a jam.  At least today, we saw a couple bunch formations and motion with Diggs/others.  

 

3.  Complexity: although our scheme is "complex" (reads in pass game/routes etc), I would like to see some more creativity with formations.  Especially designed to help the run game.  Watch the Steelers, and they are a great example of formation "complexity" that makes them very diverse to defend against.  

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

There's a filmclip up on twitter.  Link in the post game thread

 

 

I'm just pointing out that leopards don't voluntarily surrender their spots

In the past, Daboll's solution to underwhelming or inadequate personnel has been more trickery dickery, not less

 

Its just not working.  My question is what do people think an OC or DC does when they make "adjustments"?  They make changes in the playbook and play calling.  So do people want him to make it more complex and an even bigger playbook?  

 

I mean, our guys are not executing well enough,.  We have had so many drive killing plays either that were just awful play calls or poorly executed.  Somethings not working well enough to get the offense in rhythm.  Missing Brown and being short handed at guard on the OL is not helping.  

 

Yet every time our back is against the wall, they just keep it simple and move the ball at will like the drive to get us within a score late against KC, the key drives late in this game. They need to do more of that.  It shouldn't only be when our backs are against the wall.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Just now, MasterStrategist said:

At least today, we had much better rhythm between the 20s...horrible redzone though.  Agree during the 2 losses, offense had poor rhythm (except 2-3 possessions in that Titans game).  

 

Hard to say if it is playbook complexity, poor execution, or a combo of both.  I agree many players have noted the complexity of our scheme.  However, I have seen Josh and this offense perform like a top 5 offense, weeks 1-4.  Hard to put it all on Josh, but when he misses quick easy throws and starts the games 1-5, or 0-3 that definitely hurts the rhythm.

 

Two things bother me about Daboll:

1.  When Josh is "off", he doesn't adjust.  We need to come into games almost sith a backup gameplan that is more simple, less complex or whatever we want to call it.  Put more pressure on the OL, Rbs in that situation. Run more bootlegs, easier completions to get Josh back into a rhythm.

 

2. Press man: we saw Baltimore, albeit their secondary is outstanding, and Kc/Ten run press man.  Now Bal did it with cover 1, even cover 0 blitzes last year. while Kc especially played a bit of cat/mouse and bailed to cover 2 man.  Either way, I want to see more "bunch" formations, motion, etc that helps our smaller WRs beat the initial jam and get rub routes.  Diggs is our only Wr that I trust to get off a jam.  At least today, we saw a couple bunch formations and motion with Diggs/others.  

 

3.  Complexity: although our scheme is "complex" (reads in pass game/routes etc), I would like to see some more creativity with formations.  Especially designed to help the run game.  Watch the Steelers, and they are a great example of formation "complexity" that makes them very diverse to defend against.  

Exactly. What basis is there for anyone to claim it with confidence?

[Matt_In_NH]

10 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Thats not what I said.  I said reduce the complexity and size of the playbook a little bit until our offense is healthy.  Focus on getting a rhythm in the offense.  Because if you think our offense has been in rhythm the last 3 weeks then I dont know what games you have been watching.

 

Man, people fixate on certain words.  I didnt pin this thread only on penalties.  Its like thats all anyone read.  

I don’t agree they should dial back complexity.  The penalties was the one argument you gave other than the complexity itself.   When there is a perceived lack of success on offense people tend to blame it on coaching.  Defenses are clearly dealing with josh differently since the first 4 games.  A lot more zone and not as much man.  
 

the bills did not punt today.   Or score a td.   So they moved the ball well between the 20’s.....really well!  They need to finish better/execute better.   The presnap motion and subsequent reads are important.   

[Motorin']

21 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

 

Illegal formation, at least this week, appeared to be a poor officiating call.  And erased a great read by Josh, and route by Davis.  

 

Looked up what constitutes illegal formation with wr's. It actually looks like Diggs was at fault.

 

One wr on the left and right side have to be on the line of scrimmage. The line of scrimmage is defined from the ball to the center's belt line. Weird, but that's why OT's can be a yard off of the ball and still be considered on the line of scrimmage, bc their helmet can be inside the Center's belt. 

 

Diggs was the only wr on the right side, and it doesn't look like he was on the line.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Motorin'

[Alphadawg7]

10 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

At least today, we had much better rhythm between the 20s...horrible redzone though.  Agree during the 2 losses, offense had poor rhythm (except 2-3 possessions in that Titans game).  

 

Hard to say if it is playbook complexity, poor execution, or a combo of both.  I agree many players have noted the complexity of our scheme.  However, I have seen Josh and this offense perform like a top 5 offense, weeks 1-4.  Hard to put it all on Josh, but when he misses quick easy throws and starts the games 1-5, or 0-3 that definitely hurts the rhythm.

 

Two things bother me about Daboll:

1.  When Josh is "off", he doesn't adjust.  We need to come into games almost sith a backup gameplan that is more simple, less complex or whatever we want to call it.  Put more pressure on the OL, Rbs in that situation. Run more bootlegs, easier completions to get Josh back into a rhythm.

 

2. Press man: we saw Baltimore, albeit their secondary is outstanding, and Kc/Ten run press man.  Now Bal did it with cover 1, even cover 0 blitzes last year. while Kc especially played a bit of cat/mouse and bailed to cover 2 man.  Either way, I want to see more "bunch" formations, motion, etc that helps our smaller WRs beat the initial jam and get rub routes.  Diggs is our only Wr that I trust to get off a jam.  At least today, we saw a couple bunch formations and motion with Diggs/others.  

 

3.  Complexity: although our scheme is "complex" (reads in pass game/routes etc), I would like to see some more creativity with formations.  Especially designed to help the run game.  Watch the Steelers, and they are a great example of formation "complexity" that makes them very diverse to defend against.  

 

Yeah, this is mostly what I am trying to convey here, good post

8 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

Exactly. What basis is there for anyone to claim it with confidence?

 

Whose claiming things with confidence?  I said I think...who are you to say its wrong with confidence?  I mean thats a pretty silly thing to say on a fan message board.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[klos63]

We did get over 400 yards in total offense.

[Kwai San]

2 hours ago, MJS said:

They didn't really show much of that play on the broadcast. Did you see the play somewhere?

 

I saw the play right after the call.....he was back a bit but not off the line.  I officiated HS and D2/3 for 15 years as a Line Judge - NO WAY I woulda thrown that flag.  There was a make up call a few plays later against the Jests.  Thats a crummy way to officiate a game IMHO.

[Alphadawg7]

30 minutes ago, klos63 said:

We did get over 400 yards in total offense.

 

First 4 games, Buffalo averaged 4 TDS per game.  We have 4 TOTAL TD's in the 3 games since.   Yards dont win games, points do.  And we keep committing drive killing play calls, mental mistakes, blown assignments, etc that keep points off the board.  Including against the worst team in the NFL.  

 

Somethings not working, the offense isn't playing with rhythm, discipline, or confidence.  Im suggesting a way to help build that back up.  Simple as that.  We need smarter play calls, and better execution.  Daboll needs to make adjustments.  

[klos63]

14 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

First 4 games, Buffalo averaged 4 TDS per game.  We have 4 TOTAL TD's in the 3 games since.   Yards dont win games, points do.  And we keep committing drive killing play calls, mental mistakes, blown assignments, etc that keep points off the board.  Including against the worst team in the NFL.  

 

Somethings not working, the offense isn't playing with rhythm, discipline, or confidence.  Im suggesting a way to help build that back up.  Simple as that.  We need smarter play calls, and better execution.  Daboll needs to make adjustments.  

I agree that something different needs to be done. Having John Brown back will likely help, probably Feliciano and Ford back will help too. It is the same playbook as the first 4 weeks.  Did you really think Allen was going to throw for 5000 yards and 50 TD's this season?

[formerlyofCtown]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I think they need to reduce the size of the playbook a little bit and dial down the complexity.  Players in the past have already said its the most complicated they have seen, and that was before this year where he has clearly expanded the size of the playbook.

 

We are seeing too many dumb penalties on offense like illegal formations that have taken TD's off the board or killed drives.  Get this offense into a rhythm, make it just a little less complicated and keep it fresh with Josh ability to improvise.  Daboll is trying too hard on gimmick and trick plays.  He calls too many, and has bad timing with it too.  

 

Maybe just dial back the complexity and size just a little bit, at least until our offense gets healthy and get key guys back like Brown and Feliciano.   

Bad idea.  If we truly are like the Patriots used to be then complex isn't the word for it.  If I remember correctly it's pretty much a new playbook every week.  That's why a lot of WRs failed in the NE offense.

 

As far as what's not working, John Brown and Knox aren't on the field.  That's a lot of speed and big play threat that a D doesn't have to account for.

Edited October 26, 2020 by formerlyofCtown

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I think they need to reduce the size of the playbook a little bit and dial down the complexity.  Players in the past have already said its the most complicated they have seen, and that was before this year where he has clearly expanded the size of the playbook.

 

We are seeing too many dumb penalties on offense like illegal formations that have taken TD's off the board or killed drives.  Get this offense into a rhythm, make it just a little less complicated and keep it fresh with Josh ability to improvise.  Daboll is trying too hard on gimmick and trick plays.  He calls too many, and has bad timing with it too.  

 

Maybe just dial back the complexity and size just a little bit, at least until our offense gets healthy and get key guys back like Brown and Feliciano.   

I think this is backward.  The Bills are undersized, and they can't win consistently one on one at the point of attack.  They have to win by scheme.  They need to complicate the running game, not simplify it.  

 

Bills need to execute complex game plans.  

[Figster]

31 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

First 4 games, Buffalo averaged 4 TDS per game.  We have 4 TOTAL TD's in the 3 games since.   Yards dont win games, points do.  And we keep committing drive killing play calls, mental mistakes, blown assignments, etc that keep points off the board.  Including against the worst team in the NFL.  

 

Somethings not working, the offense isn't playing with rhythm, discipline, or confidence.  Im suggesting a way to help build that back up.  Simple as that.  We need smarter play calls, and better execution.  Daboll needs to make adjustments.  

 

This interesting topic is on the front page of TSW in case anyone missed it.

 

We see Beasley continue to make plays all over the football field. 

 

So when you say scale back on the complexity and size of the play book these are the kind of plays Daboll is looking at to better compliment his players.

 

 Buffalo has an intelligent QB with a smart, well coached supporting cast around him IMO.

 

The execution will improve over time in my humble opinion OP.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Figster

[Lurker]

Get a healthy John Brown and some stability on the O-line.   Leave the playbook as is...

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Greg Thompsett of Cover 1 talking about multiple RPOs where the pass option was a WR screen to Beasley for an easy 9 yards. I hope they don't scale that back. 

[Gonzonzo]

1 hour ago, klos63 said:

We did get over 400 yards in total offense.

 

And we didn´t punt today.

 

[bills11]

I think there's merit to this discussion. Daboll does need to do a better job getting this offence into rhythm..he calls too many plays early looking for explosive chunk plays ...that works when you have excellent protection like Josh did in game 1-4 but when you don't connect you get quickly into 3rd and longs and quick 3 n outs...

 

the second half of this game was far more balanced with more quick reads off of rpos..sometimes it's okay to take a 6 yard gain . The defence is obviously not as stout as we expected entering the season so our best bet is to keep the ball as much as possible. 

[klos63]

22 minutes ago, Gonzonzo said:

 

And we didn´t punt today.

 

time to start over

[WideNine]

Daboll used Kroft on some bubble screens that were really effective when the Jets corners were playing off with zone looks, they need to go to that well more often. 5-7 yards is a good play and Allen will eventually understand that.

 

I don't mind Jet sweeps in the red zone, but their success is dependent on creating hesitation on players getting to the outside and your receiver setting the edge. There are usually 3-4 options with that play; Hand off to Mckenzie, Allen draw play, toss sweep to your HB the other direction (you could sneak your TE out too for a quick pass)...so you are attacking the field sideline to sideline. I think you need to fake that play to McKenzie a few times to see how teams react before it is money.

 

I would like to see our red zone offense use more gun bunch formations that would allow quick rub plays to free Beasley (the dude is slippery and should be a prime red zone threat), I like Kroft in the 11 personnel down there in a 3x1 set and wonder if they could motion him into the backfield as a lead blocker for Singletary, with a naked boot option for Allen, or pass out of the bunch if they sell out to stop the run. My hope is that Allen would hand off more than attempting the bootleg as you have to sell the direct play a few times before teams bite on a misdirection. 

 

Lots of ways Daboll can use this roster to better punch it in for scores. I don't like the slow developing razzle-dazzle in the red zone....they either end up penalties, sacks, or Allen chased out of bounds trying to force a play with the scramble drill. We need just quick scripted hitters, 1-2 and the ball should be out of Allen's hands, if he is not running it himself.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by WideNine

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 hours ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

To fix there problems in the Red Zone the bills need to start looking at the running backs we have and say your our number 1 no more running back by committee one  has to start taking pressure off of Josh,.

 

I think if you look at our running plays, you can see that a lot of the problem starts with the Offensive Line which has been, well, Offensive at run blocking.

Right now it's struggling big time in pass protection too, namely our guards - to  be fair, most OLs can't play 2 backup guards and maintain a high level - but before that, we weren't run blocking adequately.  It's fundamental stuff, letting DLmen shed blocks or hesitating about technique.

[colin]

i think this thread is spot on.

 

josh takes a little longer to find his target on most multi target plays (he's gotten a lot better at quick screens tho).  he's got the talent and arm to buy himself some time.  but that weakness is emphasized and that positive ability is negated with goofy slow forming plays, MOST OF ALL WHEN THE FIELD IS SHORTER!  we should tend to have a fast first or second read for allen, because that gives him a chance to go through his reads and go back if need be.  he can also tuck the rock and just murder a deep drop D, but slow forming plays in compressed space remove that too.  

 

we had one audible into a run by allen where the halfback came through the hole and blocked.  allen got tackled about 3 or 4 yards up, but it was for a first down.  a missed tackle on a play like that can break for a score, and it's going to pull the LBs up.  dabo likes to either keep going to the qb run, or just throw it out totally, never really setting up the d with the same look to set up play action which gets the LBs fooled quickly after the snap.  the stuff NE is doing w newton or what andy reid always does works this way very well, we need a coach for our offensive coaches.

[Captain Caveman]

15 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He probably didn’t check in w his side ref

 

rookie mistake

 

No, I saw a video where Gabe did check in.  I thought they called it on Davis, but seems like maybe  they meant to call it on the other side.

[LABILLBACKER]

18 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I think they need to reduce the size of the playbook a little bit and dial down the complexity.  Players in the past have already said its the most complicated they have seen, and that was before this year where he has clearly expanded the size of the playbook.

 

We are seeing too many dumb penalties on offense like illegal formations that have taken TD's off the board or killed drives.  Get this offense into a rhythm, make it just a little less complicated and keep it fresh with Josh ability to improvise.  Daboll is trying too hard on gimmick and trick plays.  He calls too many, and has bad timing with it too.  

 

Maybe just dial back the complexity and size just a little bit, at least until our offense gets healthy and get key guys back like Brown and Feliciano.   

That -11 yard end around to McKenzie was brilliant. Plays like the double fake screen take way too long to develop.