If Trump loses and refuses to leave

[TBBills]

4 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

No I don't.

 

Show me how it worked that those ballots that came in by mail weeks in advance had to be counted at 4am and why.

 

 

Thank you.  

That is what your beloved Trump wanted... That was the rules the mail in ballots were not to be counted till after the in person ballots.

I don't understand how you can follow Trump but not see him back before the election making sure the mail in ballots would be counted last... Why do you ignore these things?

Edited November 19, 2020 by TBBills

[jrober38]

19 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

Ask Shoshin, I was responding to alleged errors he brought up in Wayne County, MI.

 

I can't believe I need to repeat myself again...the errors (which you initially said were nonexistent) were found.  Some were found and reported in the first count.  Some were found only after a recount which was ordered after pressures to do so.  Again, you're not fully correct.  Nobody has answered my question about why the "human errors" all go in one direction.  Keep in mind that there are representatives of both parties looking for irregularities in the same locations.  Why is it that no D observer found and Trump-favored "human error"?  I'm pretty sure they were looking at the progress of the vote.  Some states were and remain very close. If D poll watchers weren't looking then that's not Trump's problem.

 

I realize you said that nobody is looking for Trump-favored errors (I think that's erroneous, see above).  It is my opinion that nobody is looking for them at this point in time because if they are found, then that throws the election process and results MORE in doubt. You can't have NYT headlines blaring that NO fraud was found if there was Trump-favored fraud.  They didn't say anything about "human error" that affected thousands of votes in a couple key counties.  It is my assertion that not WANTING to seek the infirmities and steaming ahead is actually a threat to democracy.  Or, there are only one-sided infirmities, which is also a threat to democracy.

 

People who wring their hands over Trump's actions being a threat to democracy may not be looking at things from both directions.  I'm just asking a simple question.  If the results of an inquiry show that Biden won in spite of "human error" which solely ran in his favor, I'm for that result.  But count votes that are supposed to be counted and no more (that doesn't even address late-received ballots in PA). I don't care how long it takes. Why does anyone care how long it takes?

 

Here's an attempt at an analogy: People complain that there wasn't enough early Covid-19 testing in the U.S., but representatives from the U.S. weren't permitted into China to get samples in order to make the tests.  We had to wait until enough infected people were able to provide samples.  It is similar to election results.  There's no evidence until election night, and you've got self-serving election officials saying that they did everything right.  What election official is going to say that his or her employees are cheaters? 

 

 

 

 

 

If an error is found by the election system, it's not actually an error because the safeguards in place worked. 

 

You're making an issue over mistakes that were made, and corrected, so that there were not actually any mistakes to the number of votes each candidate received.

 

And again, the GOP strategy right now is to throw as much crap at the wall as possible to make it look like there were issues. That has been their approach for 2.5 weeks, so distort the truth, say there were "errors" when the issues were caught and corrected, and ultimately undermine the process as thoroughly as possible.

 

The GOP is crying about things that resulted in an accurate vote count. The systems worked to make sure that these "errors" didn't actually mess with an accurate vote count. 

 

This is why there are poll watchers, why there adjudicators for each side to verify votes and signatures, etc. There are numerous sets of eyeballs on every vote before it's counted, and all these reports of errors have shown is that the system works really well to make sure that actual mistakes aren't recorded incorrectly towards the official count. 

19 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

No I don't.

 

Show me how it worked that those ballots that came in by mail weeks in advance had to be counted at 4am and why.

 

 

Thank you.  

 

It's called a "law".

 

In this case, the "law" in places like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Arizona, Georgia and Nevada clearly states that absentee and mail in votes CANNOT under any circumstances be counted until after all in person, day of election votes are counted.

Edited November 19, 2020 by jrober38

[Big Blitz]

21 minutes ago, TBBills said:

That is what your beloved Trump wanted... That was the rules the mail in ballots were not to be counted till after the in person ballots.

I don't understand how you can follow Trump but not see him back before the election making sure the mail in ballots would be counted last... Why do you ignore these things?

 

 

That's not what I'm asking.  

 

How did they count them and who did the counting?  Why are we to trust a bunch of Democrat run cities (only Milwaukee, Philly, Atlanta, and Detroit are where Joe over performed btw) and be certain the unprecedented number of mail in ballots are legit?

 

You wanted 90 million votes in the mail.  

 

Verify all of them.  Especially the ones only checked "Biden" and look like they came straight off the copy machine.  

 

The Ds in the states don't want to do that. 

 

So either get a non partisan entity to do it, or its going to SCOTUS.  Joe "won," right?  So verify all of them.  

[TBBills]

7 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

That's not what I'm asking.  

 

How did they count them and who did the counting?  Why are we to trust a bunch of Democrat run cities (only Milwaukee, Philly, Atlanta, and Detroit are where Joe over performed btw) and be certain the unprecedented number of mail in ballots are legit?

 

You wanted 90 million votes in the mail.  

 

Verify all of them.  Especially the ones only checked "Biden" and look like they came straight off the copy machine.  

 

The Ds in the states don't want to do that. 

 

So either get a non partisan entity to do it, or its going to SCOTUS.  Joe "won," right?  So verify all of them.  

This has to be a joke... No way you still cannot understand.

[jrober38]

7 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

That's not what I'm asking.  

 

How did they count them and who did the counting?  Why are we to trust a bunch of Democrat run cities (only Milwaukee, Philly, Atlanta, and Detroit are where Joe over performed btw) and be certain the unprecedented number of mail in ballots are legit?

 

You wanted 90 million votes in the mail.  

 

Verify all of them.  Especially the ones only checked "Biden" and look like they came straight off the copy machine.  

 

The Ds in the states don't want to do that. 

 

So either get a non partisan entity to do it, or its going to SCOTUS.  Joe "won," right?  So verify all of them.  

 

Ballots are verified, by both Republicans and Democrats.

 

I know this sounds crazy, but voting in the US is actually really secure. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, shoshin said:

 

I don't know what the media called Bush back then. IT seems you presented an article that didn't call him Pres-Elect. I certainly always thought of him as such back then. The guy with the most votes at the end of the counting is usually the winner, even when there's a Hail Mary recount in Florida. 

 

Gore tried a 90 yard Hail Mary. Trump's Hail Mary is being thrown from Indonesia by the wrong Josh. 

 

 

Hey, you said that "He has some of the most vaunted legal minds in the county working on his behalf" and as support, linked to someone who hasn't argued an appellate case in 14 years. And I notice you did not link to Rudy. 

 

Trump has a legal team, of that I am sure. "The most vaunted legal minds," of that I am dubious. 

 

Wait let me get this right: A predominantly D county released its vote--at a certain time--after counting them and that's proof of a conspiracy? 

 

Critical thinking is dead.  

Good for you and I appreciate your honesty on Bush being President-Elect.  I had no interest in spending time on that, but other board members took issue with the discussion.  Other than you, no one chose to address the question I asked, presumably tapping out on what seems obvious to you and I. 
 

Again, I acknowledge stating the Trump has some of the most vaunted legal minds in the country on his team. I gave you two names and you rejected their credentials. Old man fan did the same.  I feel like I’m arguing who the best running back in NFL history is, and I’ll acknowledge your thoughts and call it a day. 

[snafu]

9 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

If an error is found by the election system, it's not actually an error because the safeguards in place worked. 

 

You're making an issue over mistakes that were made, and corrected, so that there were not actually any mistakes to the number of votes each candidate received.

 

And again, the GOP strategy right now is to throw as much crap at the wall as possible to make it look like there were issues. That has been their approach for 2.5 weeks, so distort the truth, say there were "errors" when the issues were caught and corrected, and ultimately undermine the process as thoroughly as possible.

 

The GOP is crying about things that resulted in an accurate vote count. The systems worked to make sure that these "errors" didn't actually mess with an accurate vote count. 

 

This is why there are poll watchers, why there adjudicators for each side to verify votes and signatures, etc. There are numerous sets of eyeballs on every vote before it's counted, and all these reports of errors have shown is that the system works really well to make sure that actual mistakes aren't recorded incorrectly towards the official count. 

 

It's called a "law".

 

In this case, the "law" in places like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Arizona, Georgia and Nevada clearly states that absentee and mail in votes CANNOT under any circumstances be counted until after all in person, day of election votes are counted.

 

 

See your bolded parts...the errors in Georgia wouldn't have been uncovered if people just took the results at face value. It is an issue.

Wayne County may actually have a problem if their voter rolls don't square with the number of votes cast.  That wouldn't have been uncovered if people just took the results at face value.  It is an issue.  But, again, the greater issue is whether it is okay to shout down people who want to examine the results rather than take them at face value.

 

The "law" that Congress passes every election year is that Election Day occur on the first Tuesday in November.  This year the "law" says November 3rd.  The "law" you're perhaps talking about may (or may not -- we shall see) is an attempt by the Pennsylvania Secretary of State and the PA Supreme Court to extend the deadline for voting and counting votes received after the date actually set by "law" via Congress.  On top of that, the PA regulations may or may not have been amended AFTER early voting had commenced.  All this is different, of course, from our prior exchange regarding "human error".

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jrober38]

7 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

 

See your bolded parts...the errors in Georgia wouldn't have been uncovered if people just took the results at face value. It is an issue.

Wayne County may actually have a problem if their voter rolls don't square with the number of votes cast.  That wouldn't have been uncovered if people just took the results at face value.  It is an issue.  But, again, the greater issue is whether it is okay to shout down people who want to examine the results rather than take them at face value.

 

The "law" that Congress passes every election year is that Election Day occur on the first Tuesday in November.  This year the "law" says November 3rd.  The "law" you're perhaps talking about may (or may not -- we shall see) is an attempt by the Pennsylvania Secretary of State and the PA Supreme Court to extend the deadline for voting and counting votes received after the date actually set by "law" via Congress.  On top of that, the PA regulations may or may not have been amended AFTER early voting had commenced.  All this is different, of course, from our prior exchange regarding "human error".

 

But they were uncovered!!

 

All of the errors your talking about were uncovered. The system quite literally did what it was supposed to do, with the safeguards in place working to make sure all votes were accurately counted.

 

When you actively work to slow down the postal service so that mail in ballots don't arrive on time, in an attempt to disenfranchise millions of voters who will vote by mail I don't really have an issue with the rules being changed.

 

With that said, the number of these votes that arrived after November 3rd weren't great enough to impact the election. Evidence shows that Democrats voted by mail very early with almost all of their mail in votes arriving by November 3rd, so this, like pretty much every defense Trump has put up so far is a moot point.

 

And the law I was referring to was the one that said absentee and mail in votes can't be counted until after the day of votes. That's why it looked odd to some people. If they'd just let Pennsylvania, Michigan, Georgia, Arizona, etc count these votes as they came in, the election would have been called for Biden by around 10 pm on November 3rd. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by jrober38

[WideNine]

3 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Sometimes, we have an opportunity to find some common ground.  It requires some introspection and willingness to apply common sense to a subject.  I'll give it a try here:

 

The original knock on my position was that I called Biden the media President.  Multiple people took issue with that characterization, and you posted on that topic.  You asked me some questions specifically about the treatment Biden received relative to other presidents.  I went back 20 years, referenced Bush v Gore, and linked a news article from the NYT dated 11/27/2000.  That was 20 days after the election, and one day after Florida officials publicly declared Bush the winner of the state.   Here's another swing at it:

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/26/politics/bush-is-declared-winner-in-florida-but-gore-vows-to-contest-results.html

 

In this case, the Times acknowledges the results of Florida's certification process, giving W Bush 271 EC votes.  As I said yesterday, partisanship aside, and recognizing the unofficial nature of the term "President-Elect", George W Bush was THE President-Elect.  It's not debatable.  At the risk of repeating myself, had Gore been successful in his challenge, George W Bush would have no longer been President-Elect.  

 

I acknowledge your  comments regarding the nature of Gore's complaint-which were largely impotent, but that doesn't change anything with respect to the concept of President-Elect.  

 

Here's my question for you--are you willing to set your hostility aside for a bit and answer the question---was George W Bush the "President-Elect' as commonly used in media publications when Florida certified their election and gave him the 271 EC votes?   

 

I'll ask @WideNine, @jrober38 and @shoshin the same question. Updated to include @oldmanfan to the list.  I can’t be accused of discriminating against the elderly. 
 

 

Oh Shohsy, I get it. DJT has one lawyer and no one on his team that has any legal skill.  They should have tried to get that guy who won that Sandman kid all that money. 

 

In answer to your question - as soon as Florida certified their vote totals he was President Elect. Media has little or nothing to do with this process as they are getting their updates from the Election boards from each state... not a conspiracy and folks can disagree with media projections that jump ahead of state election board results but they are largely based on how many official votes are tallied and how many are left - the math is pretty simple as number of votes casts is known before ballot inspection and processing.

 

This is why the GOP Secretary of State in Georgia who is being crucified by his own party for not "manufacturing" a win in Georgia or throwing out Biden votes as Graham was hinting he should do, pushed back on statements about transparency saying that his election board hosted calls every 2 hours to update everyone including the media on current vote processing status and results.

 

Now if folks want to put an * next to that President Elect title while legal challenges wind their way through courts then that is their prerogative. Calling the winner of the initial results is a normal process that allows for the transition of administration information and personnel role assignments to happen to ensure the country does not lurch into the next administration blindly.

 

Bush v. Gore was a unique situation as it was only one state separated by only a few votes, and I get the sense that folks do not understand the scope of the gap between that situation and the one we have today that has led to the barrage of feckless, wasted legal challenges. Now recounts will happen in close results, or states may have their own mandates to recount or audit their results, or if any legal challenges have merit a recount could happen but precedent has shown that recounts usually only move the needle a few hundred votes so my totals below of the latest 2020 results could move a few hundred one way or the other, but as the point has been hammered over and over, it will not change these results of who won each state.

 

In the case of Bush vs. Gore less that 600 votes stood between the two candidates in the one and only contested swing state for that election.

 

After their machine recount Bush's lead stood at 327 votes. Challenges around wrinkled ballots and incomplete holes being punched in the ballots followed, but did not change the result. In that matter I think Gore actually had margins to victory and legit arguments that Trump wishes he had, but he was not allowed to pursue them as they were outside Florida's existing election law and the Supreme Court ruled that election laws could not be changed post-election. In particular there was the use of a "butterfly" ballot in Palm Beach county that easily mislead Gore voters into accidentally voting for 3rd party candidate Pat Buchanan and an estimated 3700 votes intended for Gore were siphoned away because of that design, but apparently they did not have the means to allow voters to "cure" their ballots as states like PA currently have.

 

The 2020 Election Current Gaps in Swing States:

GA: Biden by 12,655

AZ: Biden by 10,457

NV: Biden by 33,596

WI: Biden by 20,608

PA: Biden by 82,353

FL: Trump by 371,686

GA: Biden by 14,007

MI: Biden by 155,629

 

 

So Bush vs. Gore was a wholly different situation from the 2020 election and the delay then in the transition process led to a country that was not prepared for the next administration and that fact was considered one of the reasons our country's intelligence and security agencies were caught with their pants down during 911 according to government sanctioned reports reviewing the systemic failures leading up to that tragedy.

 

Everyone that studies and understands our electoral process knows that the clock begins ticking down on any challenges of the initial results as they are moot once all the states certify their election results and the Electoral College casts their votes. After that, the electoral college votes are counted and the official President Elect is sworn in as President. There is nothing unusual about this election, it is a classic loss for Trump.

 

The only thing unusual about this election is that Trump is not conceding a clear loss and seeks to employ disinformation and conspiracy theories that predictably fall dead in court.

 

These challenges fail in court not because of a lack of legal skill, but because unlike Twitter or news conferences, courts require evidence. There is none, courtrooms in swing states are where Trump challenges lacking evidence go to die. That is a significant and key misunderstanding that many Trump supporters do not quite get. They fail, because they do not have evidence, or the evidence presented lacks merit. And unlike social media, lawyers cannot lie to a judge in a court room where they are sworn in without suffering consequences.

 

Team Trump is having trouble finding competent lawyers, or keeping them, because competent lawyers and law firms know what most of the Trump supporters refuse to acknowledge Trump legitimately lost and evidence to the contrary does not exist.

 

There are provisions for a very tight electoral vote where when parties cannot agree the succession is laid out in the constitution, but this loss does not resemble a close loss in regards to the number of swing states Trump lost, nor by the margins by which he lost. Also, if it were down to a single swing state and a handful of votes with illegible scribbles on them and the parties could not agree, then the succession still would not be Trump.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by WideNine

[snafu]

8 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

But they were uncovered!!

 

They weren't uncovered until after people complained.

You're ignoring my point. I'm tired of repeating myself to you and you keep going back to the same unresponsive retort.

 

 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, snafu said:

 

They weren't uncovered until after people complained.

You're ignoring my point. I'm tired of repeating myself to you and you keep going back to the same unresponsive retort.

 

 

All states do some form of auditing before certifying votes.  You want the vote to be correct them complain when the procedures used to ensure that actually work.  What are you looking for?  What would solve whatever problem you have?

[shoshin]

24 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Good for you and I appreciate your honesty on Bush being President-Elect.  I had no interest in spending time on that, but other board members took issue with the discussion.  Other than you, no one chose to address the question I asked, presumably tapping out on what seems obvious to you and I. 
 

Again, I acknowledge stating the Trump has some of the most vaunted legal minds in the country on his team. I gave you two names and you rejected their credentials. Old man fan did the same.  I feel like I’m arguing who the best running back in NFL history is, and I’ll acknowledge your thoughts and call it a day. 

 

To be fair, the other lawyer has a stellar resume, though he does not seem to have any election experience. He's just a well-heeled conservative-activist litigator. 

8 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

They weren't uncovered until after people complained.

You're ignoring my point. I'm tired of repeating myself to you and you keep going back to the same unresponsive retort.

 

 

 

I posted upstream but in case you missed it, our process is run by little trained underpaid people and it's still much better in 2020 than any year before. 

 

We've overcome chads, ballot-box stuffing in the big boss era, and horseback riders with handwritten ballots. I'll take today's results over the others and this gap is "yuge." This one is done. Trump lost. 45 times we've had a smooth transition of power. Trump wants to break the trend. 

[snafu]

10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

All states do some form of auditing before certifying votes.  You want the vote to be correct them complain when the procedures used to ensure that actually work.  What are you looking for?  What would solve whatever problem you have?

 

I want the vote count to be accurate and certified. You are getting "audited" results mixed up from results.  Auditing the results takes a lot of time and effort.  I'm not asking for audited results in 50 states, or any state -- as long as there's no obvious error.  But, you see, there ARE errors, and these errors wouldn't have been known if nobody questioned.

 

If the mop up of the results is happening, then bravo.  If the results are finalized and Biden wins, then that's great.  If there are infirmities then I want those sussed out without people complaining that this is a waste of time.  Because getting it right, to me, is not a waste of time.

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

15 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

In answer to your question - as soon as Florida certified their vote totals he was President Elect. Media has little or nothing to do with this process as they are getting their updates from the Election boards from each state... not a conspiracy and folks can disagree with media projections that jump ahead of state election board results but they are largely based on how many official votes are tallied and how many are left - the math is pretty simple as number of votes casts is known before ballot inspection and processing.

 

This is why the GOP Secretary of State in Georgia who is being crucified by his own party for not "manufacturing" a win in Georgia or throwing out Biden votes as Graham was hinting he should do, pushed back on statements about transparency saying that his election board hosted calls every 2 hours to update everyone including the media on current vote processing status and results.

 

Now if folks want to put an * next to that President Elect title while legal challenges wind their way through courts then that is their prerogative. Calling the winner of the initial results is a normal process that allows for the transition of administration information and personnel role assignments to happen to ensure the country does not lurch into the next administration blindly.

 

Bush v. Gore was a unique situation as it was only one state separated by only a few votes, and I get the sense that folks do not understand the scope of the gap between that situation and the one we have today that has led to the barrage of feckless, wasted legal challenges. Now recounts will happen in close results, or states may have their own mandates to recount or audit their results, or if any legal challenges have merit a recount could happen but precedent has shown that recounts usually only move the needle a few hundred votes so my totals below of the latest 2020 results could move a few hundred one way or the other, but as the point has been hammered over and over, it will not change these results of who won each state.

 

In the case of Bush vs. Gore less that 600 votes stood between the two candidates in the one and only contested swing state for that election.

 

After their machine recount Bush's lead stood at 327 votes. Challenges around wrinkled ballots and incomplete holes being punched in the ballots followed, but did not change the result. In that matter I think Gore actually had margins to victory and legit arguments that Trump wishes he had, but he was not allowed to pursue them as they were outside Florida's existing election law and the Supreme Court ruled that election laws could not be changed post-election. In particular there was the use of a "butterfly" ballot in Palm Beach county that easily mislead Gore voters into accidentally voting for 3rd party candidate Pat Buchanan and an estimated 3700 votes intended for Gore were siphoned away because of that design, but apparently they did not have the means to allow voters to "cure" their ballots as states like PA currently have.

 

The 2020 Election Current Gaps in Swing States:

GA: Biden by 12,655

AZ: Biden by 10,457

NV: Biden by 33,596

WI: Biden by 20,608

PA: Biden by 82,353

FL: Trump by 371,686

GA: Biden by 14,007

MI: Biden by 155,629

 

 

So Bush vs. Gore was a wholly different situation from the 2020 election and the delay then in the transition process led to a country that was not prepared for the next administration and that fact was considered one of the reasons our countries intelligence and security agencies were caught with their pants down during 911 according to government sanctioned reports reviewing the systemic failures leading up to that tragedy.

 

Everyone that studies and understands our electoral process knows that the clock begins ticking down on any challenges of the initial results as they are moot once all the states certify their election results and the Electoral College casts their votes. After that, the electoral college votes are counted and the official President Elect is sworn in as President. There is nothing unusual about this election, it is a classic loss for Trump.

 

The only thing unusual about this election is that Trump is not conceding a clear loss and seeks to employ disinformation and conspiracy theories that predictably fall dead in court.

 

These challenges fail in court not because of a lack of legal skill, but because unlike Twitter or news conferences, courts require evidence. There is none, courtrooms in swing states are where Trump challenges lacking evidence go to die. That is a significant and key misunderstanding that many Trump supporters do not quite get. They fail, because they do not have evidence, or the evidence presented lacks merit. And unlike social media, lawyers cannot lie to a judge in a court room where they are sworn in without suffering consequences.

 

Team Trump is having trouble finding competent lawyers, or keeping them, because competent lawyers and law firms know what most of the Trump supporters refuse to acknowledge Trump legitimately lost and evidence to the contrary does not exist.

 

There are provisions for a very tight electoral vote where when parties cannot agree the succession is laid out in the constitution, but this loss does not resemble a close loss in regards to the number of swing states Trump lost, nor by the margins by which he lost. Also, if it were down to a single swing state and a handful of votes with illegible scribbles on them and the parties could not agree, then the succession still would not be Trump.

 

 

I appreciate your acknowledgement of Bush as President-Elect.  I began to feel like I was driving through crazy town before you ask Shosh stepped up.  
 

I’m not an attorney but I’m comfortable learning as we go here.  As for Bush Gore, one could argue the entire question was an attempt to upset the apple cart and unseat the lawfully elected president.  Be that as it may, we know that emotions ran high both before and after the matter was resolved. 
 

Let’s move on secure in the knowledge we had this brief moment in time where we agreed.  
 

 

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I appreciate your acknowledgement of Bush as President-Elect.  I began to feel like I was driving through crazy town before you ask Shosh stepped up.  
 

I’m not an attorney but I’m comfortable learning as we go here.  As for Bush Gore, one could argue the entire question was an attempt to upset the apple cart and unseat the lawfully elected president.  Be that as it may, we know that emotions ran high both before and after the matter was resolved. 
 

Let’s move on secure in the knowledge we had this brief moment in time where we agreed.  
 

 

Do you think its wrong what Trump is doing trying to get Michigan legislature and voting commissioners to change the vote of the state? 

[shoshin]

Fox correspondent eviscerates Trump's lead attorney's press conference today. 

 

 

 

 

[snafu]

39 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Do you think its wrong what Trump is doing trying to get Michigan legislature and voting commissioners to change the vote of the state? 

 

What's this now?

 

[shoshin]

And a judge, summarizing 4 of Rudy's affidavits, presumably 4 of the better ones since they made it to court (unlike most of Rudy's more outlandish claims in press conferences):

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, snafu said:

 

What's this now?

 

 

He's probably just inviting them to the White House not on record, for a round of golf right? 

 

 

 

Nothing strange going on here at all. 

[Warcodered]

41 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

I want the vote count to be accurate and certified. You are getting "audited" results mixed up from results.  Auditing the results takes a lot of time and effort.  I'm not asking for audited results in 50 states, or any state -- as long as there's no obvious error.  But, you see, there ARE errors, and these errors wouldn't have been known if nobody questioned.

 

If the mop up of the results is happening, then bravo.  If the results are finalized and Biden wins, then that's great.  If there are infirmities then I want those sussed out without people complaining that this is a waste of time.  Because getting it right, to me, is not a waste of time.

 

 

Right what you're missing is errors were assumed to of occurred because they happen in every election, but Biden was considered the winner because said errors have never changed the vote to a level that would allow Trump to win. So barring some miraculous occurrence in the certification/verification process Biden is considered the winner, this is what happens every election.

[DrDawkinstein]

7 minutes ago, shoshin said:

 

Nothing strange going on here at all. 

 

Or, you know, PERSONALLY CALLING the canvassers after they certify the votes to get them to change their minds.

 

Totally normal. Not at all election interference, intimidation, or sedition. Every President should personally call poll workers with threats/bribes. As folks like to say here, "that's the new normal".

 

 

[snafu]

23 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Right what you're missing is errors were assumed to of occurred because they happen in every election, but Biden was considered the winner because said errors have never changed the vote to a level that would allow Trump to win. So barring some miraculous occurrence in the certification/verification process Biden is considered the winner, this is what happens every election.

 

When do simple errors rise to the level of legitimate complaint?  

What's the cutoff?

 

All I've heard for two weeks is "no fraud".  I tend to agree with that.  Upon closer examination, it appears that consistently one-sided "human error" does certainly exist in more than one jurisdiction.  Either way (purposefully or by error), the results could have been tainted. Should nobody inquire about this?

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Do you think its wrong what Trump is doing trying to get Michigan legislature and voting commissioners to change the vote of the state? 

What are you asking me. Use your words. 

[Warcodered]

4 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

When do simple errors rise to the level of legitimate complaint?  

What's the cutoff?

 

All I've heard for two weeks is "no fraud".  I tend to agree with that.  Upon closer examination, it appears that consistently one-sided "human error" does certainly exist in more than one jurisdiction.  Either way (purposefully or by error), the results could have been tainted. Should nobody inquire about this?

 

 

So two errors in counties that happen to lean Republican is a pattern? You must see conspiracies everywhere.

Just now, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

What are you asking me. Use your words. 

Are you having trouble reading? Pretty sure he asked a pretty clear question right there.

[snafu]

8 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

So two errors in counties that happen to lean Republican is a pattern? You must see conspiracies everywhere.

Are you having trouble reading? Pretty sure he asked a pretty clear question right there.

 

So you've got no answers to my questions.

Thanks.

 

Read my earlier posts.  I'm not a conspiracy guy.  I'm asking questions for different reasons. 

Forget replying. I'm not looking for your validation.

 

[TBBills]

58 minutes ago, shoshin said:

Fox correspondent eviscerates Trump's lead attorney's press conference today. 

 

 

 

 

Rudy is a typical Trumpie... huge conspiracy theories with no facts or evidence.

3 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

So you've got no answers to my questions.

Thanks.

 

Read my earlier posts.  I'm not a conspiracy guy.  I'm asking questions for different reasons. 

Forget replying. I'm not looking for your validation.

 

You wont accept any answers...

[Warcodered]

5 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

So you've got no answers that I want to my questions.

Thanks.

 

Read my earlier posts.  I'm not a conspiracy guy.  I'm asking questions for different reasons. 

Forget replying. I'm not looking for your validation.

 

FIFY

[TBBills]

2 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

FIFY

You know what it is... we need to lie to him. That is how Trump gets through to them, is with lies.

Edited November 19, 2020 by TBBills

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, snafu said:

 

I want the vote count to be accurate and certified. You are getting "audited" results mixed up from results.  Auditing the results takes a lot of time and effort.  I'm not asking for audited results in 50 states, or any state -- as long as there's no obvious error.  But, you see, there ARE errors, and these errors wouldn't have been known if nobody questioned.

 

If the mop up of the results is happening, then bravo.  If the results are finalized and Biden wins, then that's great.  If there are infirmities then I want those sussed out without people complaining that this is a waste of time.  Because getting it right, to me, is not a waste of time.

 

 

 

What errors are you referring to that have been proven in a court of law with real evidence?

 

States are certifying their accurate results in the face of a rash of unfounded criticism and challenges from Trump. These certification processes happen with or without all the drama and questions. Of the few legitimate errors that were found, by the time they had circulated through social media and had been magnified by Trump, they had already been corrected by the normal audit and certification processes the states had in place before they were ever part of an official count.

 

Case in point the idiotic conspiracy around Dominion voting software and Michigan in particular:

1. It is used in states that also reported a Trump win: Louisiana, Iowa, Missouri and Ohio (no challenges there apparently)
2. It was an isolated case of human error in Michigan and not intentional as one county failed forever to apply an update to the system, but what is lost in the conspiracy hue and cry was that the Michigan's internal election verification processes used by their county election boards caught the discrepancy between voting machine results for that county and the Dominion machine tally, corrected it, and reported it proactively BEFORE the official count was tabulated and released. It had absolutely zero impact on their official vote count. 

Benson explained that while Antrim County did experience a minor election tech issue this week, the GOP’s explanation is highly misleading. For one, local authorities caught and reported the problem early on in the vote tabulating process, so the error was never reflected in the state’s official results. Also, it wasn’t the result of a “glitch” in the software’s programming either, but rather human error of putting off a software update for too long.

 

Apparently, an Antrim County clerk didn’t update the software used to aggregate voting machine data and generate unofficial results, an accidental oversight that caused a miscalculation in the county’s unofficial results. However, she added that existing election safeguards worked as intended and ensured the issue was swiftly corrected before the county submitted its official tally.

 

Here’s how the process actually works: Voters submit their ballots to voting machines that scan and retain them. Once the machines are finished processing these ballots, each one prints out its final tally of votes for each candidate in each race.

 

Officials then aggregate these printed totals using the election management system software. However, since Antrim County dragged its feet on a software update, its version miscalculated when combining these totals, even though each individual voting machine tabulated the ballots correctly. “As with other unofficial results reporting errors, this was an honest mistake and did not affect any actual vote totals,” Benson said. “Election clerks work extremely hard and do their work with integrity. They are human beings, and sometimes make mistakes. However, there are many checks and balances that ensure mistakes can be caught and corrected.”

 

 

The random administrative errors in the course of casting millions of votes is not proof of fraud. Election fraud is systemic error or malfeasance due to compromised election systems that have the potential to effect a significant number of votes. The former DHS official that Trump jettisoned both knew and attested to the fact that this vote was the most secure in election history and was not influenced by any fraud.

 

If anything, Trump's incessant, groundless tweets about election fraud for months leading up to this election spurred on by what appears to be pretty inaccurate polling, worked against him as it created an environment where every "i" was being dotted and every "t" was crossed and there was a heightened commitment to follow every safeguard and legislative election rule. He inadvertently created the very election integrity that his lawsuits are finding insurmountable.

 

Same with his baseless claims regarding mail in ballots and absentee ballots where the Secretary of State in Georgia said that they saw a significant drop in GOP mail in ballots from what they had seen earlier in the year during the primaries that would have carried him over the line. Basically, he shot himself in the foot by trying to cast doubt on the very normal process of having your ballots delivered via the USPS that is a common or only practice for many states, and all states at least of provisions for absentee ballot processing. 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by WideNine

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

12 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

So two errors in counties that happen to lean Republican is a pattern? You must see conspiracies everywhere.

Are you having trouble reading? Pretty sure he asked a pretty clear question right there.

 

Clarity is subjective, and I feel the question was quite leading and devoid of facts or substantiation.  
 

I’m always happy to provide a reply but need for intel.  Send a link if you have one.  
 

Thank you.
 

 

[snafu]

3 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

Clarity is subjective, and I feel the question was quite leading and devoid of facts or substantiation.  
 

I’m always happy to provide a reply but need for intel.  Send a link if you have one.  
 

Thank you.
 

 

 

Don't bother.

Inquiry here is dead.

 

[shoshin]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Or, you know, PERSONALLY CALLING the canvassers after they certify the votes to get them to change their minds.

 

Totally normal. Not at all election interference, intimidation, or sedition. Every President should personally call poll workers with threats/bribes. As folks like to say here, "that's the new normal".

 

 

 

Inviting MI lawmakers to the White House to help change the election results: Normal. 

[TBBills]

5 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

Don't bother.

Inquiry here is dead.

 

When you refuse to accept the answers nothing else can be done. Do you want people to lie to you to make you agree?

Edited November 19, 2020 by TBBills

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

14 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

Don't bother.

Inquiry here is dead.

 

I always feel I owe it to myself to at least try and participate in the dialogue.   Here's the way I see this most recent dialogue:

 

Tibs:  "It's blue, and it's always been blue.  How can you possibly defend that?"

LS:  "I don't know what you mean, can you explain?"

WC:  "What's your problem?  He couldn't be clearer--he said 'blue'. Everyone knows 'blue'!"

 

 

Everyone laments the other guy's echo chamber, but does their level best to create their own.   

 

[TBBills]

5 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I always feel I owe it to myself to at least try and participate in the dialogue.   Here's the way I see this most recent dialogue:

 

Tibs:  "It's blue, and it's always been blue.  How can you possibly defend that?"

LS:  "I don't know what you mean, can you explain?"

WC:  "What's your problem?  He couldn't be clearer--he said 'blue'. Everyone knows 'blue'!"

 

 

Everyone laments the other guy's echo chamber, but does their level best to create their own.   

 

So basically you're a troll... Thanks for admitting it 

[WideNine]

2 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I always feel I owe it to myself to at least try and participate in the dialogue.   Here's the way I see this most recent dialogue:

 

Tibs:  "It's blue, and it's always been blue.  How can you possibly defend that?"

LS:  "I don't know what you mean, can you explain?"

WC:  "What's your problem?  He couldn't be clearer--he said 'blue'. Everyone knows 'blue'!"

 

 

Everyone laments the other guy's echo chamber, but does their level best to create their own.   

 

 

Yet when I contradict posts where someone posits (claims) election fraud because there were random processing or administrative errors I get nothing.

 

Every, I repeat EVERY election that involves millions of votes has a small margin of human error. For the most part these are caught and corrected via each states certification process. But random cases of human error will never stack up and align with claims of systemic fraud, nor be enough leverage to have a court of law throw out thousands of legitimate votes.

 

That is why you fail, because it is a flawed premise not because there is a conspiracy or echo chamber levied against you.

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

Just now, TBBills said:

So basically you're a troll... Thanks for admitting it 

 

 

So, I'll just mark you down as not having the link to Tibsy's post, either? 

 

 

[RochesterRob]

2 minutes ago, TBBills said:

So basically you're a troll... Thanks for admitting it 

  HHHHEEEELLLLLLLOOOOO (echo) in there!  When do guys start talking about huffing, and puffing, and blowing the (White) house down?  

[WEATHER DOT COM]

Just now, RochesterRob said:

  I've been huffing and puffing a lot of glue lately

 

We know, Rob.

[Niagara Bill]

1 minute ago, RochesterRob said:

  HHHHEEEELLLLLLLOOOOO (echo) in there!  When do guys start talking about huffing, and puffing, and blowing the (White) house down?  

Blowing the house down is a good analogy of the coup that trump is working on. There is a plot to ignore this election and keep control

[snafu]

13 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I always feel I owe it to myself to at least try and participate in the dialogue.   Here's the way I see this most recent dialogue:

 

Tibs:  "It's blue, and it's always been blue.  How can you possibly defend that?"

LS:  "I don't know what you mean, can you explain?"

WC:  "What's your problem?  He couldn't be clearer--he said 'blue'. Everyone knows 'blue'!"

 

 

Everyone laments the other guy's echo chamber, but does their level best to create their own.   

 

 

Yeah, apparently I'm in a one-man echo chamber.