Karlos Williams making a comeback

[Doc]

12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Doug Whaley was extended in 2015 and fired after 2016. Not sure what you’re trying to say.

 

By calling it a "Pegula Propaganda Machine" I'm taking it to mean you think the Bills unfairly made Whaley a scapegoat.  What I'm saying is that they gave him a chance, fired him, and then the Bills made the playoffs after essentially gutting the team he put together.

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

I would put his work on par with the job Buddy Nix did here - below average 

Nix and Whaley were like polar opposites. Nix drafted better players (he also had higher picks) but Whaley found more sleepers and made better FA/pro personnel decisions. 

 

Theoretically, together, they should have been really good. Oh well.

[Phil The Thrill]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is the invention of false narratives that I don't get. There is enough to criticise Doug Whaley for without making stuff up. 

Just like the false narratives that exaggerate the ability and performance of Whaley as GM, the likes that you are spreading??  
 

Keep exposing those false narrative, truth seeker
 

[Just in Atlanta]

"Karlos Williams is making a comeback" sauce for some fried chicken, chitlins and hushpuppies.

 

Fixed. 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

By calling it a "Pegula Propaganda Machine" I'm taking it to mean you think the Bills unfairly made Whaley a scapegoat.  What I'm saying is that they gave him a chance, fired him, and then the Bills made the playoffs after essentially gutting the team he put together.

You got it wrong. The Pegulas spent 2014-2016 propping Whaley up as a good GM. Because he was employed by them. And they started sowing misinformation about the Hughes trade and the 2013 draft etc.

[Phil The Thrill]

7 minutes ago, chris heff said:

None of the people being pointed at are the reason for the drought. With all deference to the man, the fault lies with Ralph Wilson. He and he alone is responsible for the parade of incompetence at One Bills Drive.

Yeah this is a fact.  Of course, when I bring this up all people want to do is to say how Ralph kept the team in Buffalo and helped the Raiders 5 decades ago.  
 

I view Ralph as having somewhat of a conflicting  legacy for Bills fans.  For as good as he’s done for the community, he really hurt this franchise toward his last 2 decades of ownership

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Just like the false narratives that exaggerate the ability and performance of Whaley as GM, the likes that you are spreading??  
 

Keep exposing those false narrative, truth seeker
 

 

Give me one example of where I have done that. 

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree. The Doug Whaley drafts were 2013-2016. 

 

I agree with the rest of your post too. 

Doug Whaley is proof positive that drafting “starters” isn’t good enough to win in this league. Ultimately, you need Gilmore’s and White’s, not Shaq’s and Preston Brown’s.

 

It’s also quite frightening to see that nobody from the 15 or 16 drafts are on the roster and only a handful are left in the league.

[chris heff]

2 minutes ago, Clemfield2622 said:

Can we steer this thread back to talking about what a piece of crap Karlos Williams is?

I see that you’re relatively new here. So I will attempt to explain how things work. The deeper we get into a thread the further off the rails we get. Picture us if you will as a big family, a big dysfunctional family. This is like a family get together, the longer it goes the more contentious it gets. It doesn’t mean we don’t love each other, it’s just that some off us are smarter than others, some of us are right others are just wrong. I hope that helps.

[PIZ]

He’ll only be 27 in May. He was a beast. We had high hopes for him. I’d rather get AJ Dillon for a big back, but I’m not sure he’s as fast as Karlos. 
 

Curiuos, but did Karlos also say the following? It’s the first thing I thought of when I read the topic of the post. 
 

 

I'm gonna knock you out
Mama said knock you out
I'm gonna knock you out
Mama said knock you out
I'm gonna knock you out
Mama said knock you out
I'm gonna knock you out
Mama said knock you out

[Phil The Thrill]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Nix and Whaley were like polar opposites. Nix drafted better players (he also had higher picks) but Whaley found more sleepers and made better FA/pro personnel decisions. 

 

Theoretically, together, they should have been really good. Oh well.

Right but the teams record under the Nix/Whaley combination was awful.  Worse than the much maligned Jauron/Levy combo which everyone lauds as they worst ever.  
 

They actually had a better W-L record

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Give me one example of where I have done that. 

Presenting that McDermott was involved in not resigning Gilmore.  That’s speculation on your part that you present as a fact

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Yeah this is a fact.  Of course, when I bring this up all people want to do is to say how Ralph kept the team in Buffalo and helped the Raiders 5 decades ago.  
 

I view Ralph as having somewhat of a conflicting  legacy for Bills fans.  For as good as he’s done for the community, he really hurt this franchise toward his last 2 decades of ownership

 

 

I would say outside of a decade in the middle of his ownership where he got LUCKY with a GM and Coach he didnt run off (immediately), most of his ownership was failure.

 

The Bills sucked through the 70s and early 80s. Were good for a decade in the late 80s to late 90s, and then went back to their typical sucking because Ralph valued RBs over QBs, and didnt know what a competent HC looked like.

 

If we're being real here, since the merger, the Bills are a bad franchise with one good decade in the middle.

 

Hopefully that changes with the new ownership. (Or is that the Propaganda Machine?)

[Phil The Thrill]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

I would say outside of a decade in the middle of his ownership where he got LUCKY with a GM and Coach he didnt run off (immediately), most of his ownership was failure.

 

The Bills sucked through the 70s and early 80s. Were good for a decade in the late 80s to late 90s, and then went back to their typical sucking because Ralph valued RBs over QBs, and didnt know what a competent HC looked like.

 

If we're being real here, since the merger, the Bills are a bad franchise with one good decade in the middle.

 

Hopefully that changes with the new ownership. (Or is that the Propaganda Machine?)

Ironically the person that you can argue was response for finding the core of the Super Biwl teams which would be good for a decade (Polian) was the same one fired over a petty squabble with Ralph.  His successor (Butler) was also fired over a conflict with ownership.  That’s when the major dysfunction started 

[Clemfield2622]

6 minutes ago, chris heff said:

I see that you’re relatively new here. So I will attempt to explain how things work. The deeper we get into a thread the further off the rails we get. Picture us if you will as a big family, a big dysfunctional family. This is like a family get together, the longer it goes the more contentious it gets. It doesn’t mean we don’t love each other, it’s just that some off us are smarter than others, some of us are right others are just wrong. I hope that helps.

not new. i just don't post nearly as much here as i did on BBMB.

 

we've done the Whaley stuff ad nauseum. Sure it's fun to revisit, i just think this is a good chance to recall just what a gigantic damn turd sandwich Karlos Williams was. I don't want that to pass. 

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, Phil The Thrill said:

Ironically the person that you can argue was response for finding the core of the Super Biwl teams which would be good for a decade (Polian) was the same one fired over a petty squabble with Ralph.  His successor (Butler) was also fired over a conflict with ownership.  That’s when the major dysfunction started 

 

If you look at how Ralph handled Knox and Saban, I'd say that dysfunction was always there. We somehow avoided it for a decade, but then it came back and Polian was ousted. The rest after that is Ralph being typical Ralph.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Presenting that McDermott was involved in not resigning Gilmore.  That’s speculation on your part that you present as a fact

 

It is a little more than speculation. It is an assessment based on the available evidence. If you think they let a GM on his way out of the door who they no longer trusted to talk to people make that decision you are crazy. 

[Augie]

1 hour ago, chris heff said:

And he’s still a jerk. Article in the Athletic by Matthew Fairburn. Takes no responsibility, blames anyone and everything.

 

“You know what’s funny?” Williams said. “When I was in Buffalo, I knew something was wrong when they drafted Jonathan Williams. I knew something was up. Y’all had alternative plans. Y’all bring Reggie Bush to camp and allowed him to practice? Reggie Bush went negative rushing yards for the season. And y’all release me? Doug Whaley can eat a dick. Doug Whaley can die in a hole and drink bleach. I’m dead serious. The reason I didn’t play in the XFL is because Doug Whaley’s name was on it. I’m dead serious.”

 

Karlos being Karlos. Can’t get out of his own way. This sure makes you want that guy on your team! Yeah, he sounds like exactly what you want to fill your locker room with.......   ?

[Phil The Thrill]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

It is a little more than speculation. It is an assessment based on the available evidence. If you think they let a GM on his way out of the door who they no longer trusted to talk to people make that decision you are crazy. 

It’s exactly like I called it...speculation.  You have no idea but are presenting your opinions as facts.  The same thing that @GunnerBill accused me of.  
 

Atleast you didn’t try to argue the term “not getting a sniff” with semantics.  I’ll give you credit for that!

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

If you look at how Ralph handled Knox and Saban, I'd say that dysfunction was always there. We somehow avoided it for a decade, but then it came back and Polian was ousted. The rest after that is Ralph being typical Ralph.

Yeah I wasn’t around for Knox but it seems like firing Knox and hiring Stephenson was a huge mistake.   Thankfully he lucked into the hiring of Levy/Polian shortly after 

[chris heff]

2 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Ironically the person that you can argue was response for finding the core of the Super Biwl teams which would be good for a decade (Polian) was the same one fired over a petty squabble with Ralph.  His successor (Butler) was also fired over a conflict with ownership.  That’s when the major dysfunction started 

Correct me if I’m wrong (like I needed to write that), but didn’t Polian get into a beef with Ralph’s daughter, which I think included some name calling. That will get yo fired every time. Butler, who for some reason is fondly remembered, put the Bills in cap hell. He did the opposite of what the Patriots have done for twenty years, kept and overpaid players past their prime.

[KGun12TD]

Man, this is not the way to come back into the league...IDIOT!!!

 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Phil The Thrill said:

It’s exactly like I called it...speculation.  You have no idea but are presenting your opinions as facts.  The same thing that @GunnerBill accused me of.  
 

Atleast you didn’t try to argue the term “not getting a sniff” with semantics.  I’ll give you credit for that!

 

No it isn't. If you think the two are equally likely you are being foolish. 

 

And in any event... I understood the Gilmore decision. You don't pay man corners big cap dollars to play in McDermott's cover 3 zone based scheme. If Whaley did take that decision (he didn't) it would be to his credit. 

[Phil The Thrill]

5 minutes ago, Clemfield2622 said:

not new. i just don't post nearly as much here as i did on BBMB.

 

we've done the Whaley stuff ad nauseum. Sure it's fun to revisit, i just think this is a good chance to recall just what a gigantic damn turd sandwich Karlos Williams was. I don't want that to pass. 

I don’t take any of this stuff personally.  It’s fun to come in here and debate.  If we all had the same opinion, this place would be like One Bills Live

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

No it isn't. If you think the two are equally likely you are being foolish. 

 

And in any event... I understood the Gilmore decision. You don't pay man corners big cap dollars to play in McDermott's cover 3 zone based scheme. If Whaley did take that decision (he didn't) it would be to his credit. 

Are we name calling now?  Very nice.

 

Maybe we can debate the meaning of “getting a sniff” some more?

2 minutes ago, chris heff said:

Correct me if I’m wrong (like I needed to write that), but didn’t Polian get into a beef with Ralph’s daughter, which I think included some name calling. That will get yo fired every time. Butler, who for some reason is fondly remembered, put the Bills in cap hell. He did the opposite of what the Patriots have done for twenty years, kept and overpaid players past their prime.

I don’t know - I think that in business you find a way to work it out with people who have been successful.  Ralph seemingly had a conflict with any coach (outside of Levy) or GM that has had success in Buffalo.  Not an isolated incident.

[Big Turk]

Edited April 9, 2020 by matter2003

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

I don’t take any of this stuff personally.  It’s fun to come in here and debate.  If we all had the same opinion, this place would be like One Bills Live

Are we name calling now?  Very nice.

 

Maybe we can debate the meaning of “getting a sniff” some more?

I don’t know - I think that in business you find a way to work it out with people who have been successful.  Ralph seemingly had a conflict with any coach (outside of Levy) or GM that has had success in Buffalo.  Not an isolated incident.

 

I am not name calling. Maybe you should use words that convey the meaning you intend. 

[Royale with Cheese]

I'm just chiming in just to say foolish is an adjective and not a noun.  

[chris heff]

26 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

I think that in business you find a way to work it out with people who have been successful.  Ralph seemingly had a conflict with any coach (outside of Levy) or GM that has had success in Buffalo.  Not an isolated incident.

I’ve built a couple of significantly different businesses. One of them was a restaurant, a high end restaurant in NYC. I had a very good chef that I had gone to a lot of trouble to recruit. One day he decided to call my wife a f-ING B word. He was fired and out the door before he could finish the sentence. A difference of opinion you can work out, but once there was name calling it was over.

Edited April 9, 2020 by chris heff

[YoloinOhio]

49 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I think its silly that he says he is one of the best running backs in the game right now. Because he isn’t actually in the game. He’s as much in the game as I am. 

I think there is something seriously wrong with him. Thought that for a long time. 

[Charles Romes]

What a waste. He had all the talent to have a nice career.  

[Phil The Thrill]

20 minutes ago, chris heff said:

I’ve built a couple of significantly different businesses. One of them was a restaurant, a high end restaurant in NYC. I had a very good chef that I had gone to a lot of trouble to recruit. One day he decided to call my wife a f-ING B word. He was fired and out the door before he could finish the sentence. A difference of opinion you can work out, but once there was name calling it was over.

Maybe... I just don’t think you can give Ralph a pass for making a for making one of many poor decisions with coaches and GM’s.  It’s not a comparable situation.  IMO firing Polian hurt the franchise 

25 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I'm just chiming in just to say foolish is an adjective and not a noun.  

It’s an insult which people usually fling when they’ve been exposed in a debate.  I’m good with that 

[DrDawkinstein]

31 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Are we name calling now?  Very nice.

 

 

In fairness, you and FC have been name calling since the previous thread. What do you think dismissing entire arguments by calling people "Whaley Apologists" is?

 

And no one has called you names here.

 

But back to the discussion...

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

Doug Whaley was a textbook example of what the old Management book “ The Peter Principle” made as one of its central tenants:  a manager will rise through the ranks till they reach their level of incompetence. Whaley was a solid talent scout and that allowed him to rise to a position at which he was no longer truly competent. 

[chris heff]

3 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Maybe... I just don’t think you can give Ralph a pass for making a for making one of many poor decisions with coaches and GM’s.  It’s not a comparable situation.  IMO firing Polian hurt the franchise 

It’s an insult which people usually fling when they’ve been exposed in a debate.  I’m good with that 

Phil, in the same post you are arguing both sides. You say Ralph should have ignored what I recall was a vile insult hurled at his daughter and then you chastise Royal for name calling.

[Phil The Thrill]

Just now, chris heff said:

Phil, in the same post you are arguing both sides. You say Ralph should have ignored what I recall was a vile insult hurled at his daughter and then you chastise Royal for name calling.

LOL these are not the same things.  If Gunner was a good GM I wouldn’t fire him for calling me foolish. 
 

You don’t succeed in business making those decisions as evidenced by a 17 year long drought

8 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

In fairness, you and FC have been name calling since the previous thread. What do you think dismissing entire arguments by calling people "Whaley Apologists" is?

 

And no one has called you names here.

 

But back to the discussion...

There’s a clear difference...but back to the discussion like you said

[Doc]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

You got it wrong. The Pegulas spent 2014-2016 propping Whaley up as a good GM. Because he was employed by them. And they started sowing misinformation about the Hughes trade and the 2013 draft etc.

 

Yes, they retained him for continuity sake.  He didn't get the job done (and I'm sure there was stuff behind the scenes we don't know about) and then they moved on.  And were ultimately proven right.

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

LOL these are not the same things.  If Gunner was a good GM I wouldn’t fire him for calling me foolish. 
 

 

Polian called Ralph's daughter a F$%&ING C U Next Tuesday. To a group of people. That's a little worse than "foolish".

 

I semi agree with you in that Ralph's daughter shouldnt have been around and acting as a scout to begin with. Dont let your kids be hired into lower positions if you are going to be sensitive to how they are treated. But at the point, it was too late.

[Phil The Thrill]

Just now, Doc said:

 

Yes, they retained him for continuity sake.  He didn't get the job done (and I'm sure there was stuff behind the scenes we don't know about) and then they moved on.  And were ultimately proven right.

In the “process” (pun intended) they ended up eating a lot of cash on his contract.

 

I will say that a huge mistake Terry made was the timing of this firing.  It’s my theory that he was by an old-time NFL consultant that you don’t fire a GM until the draft to protect your intel.  Not hiring Beane until May kind of messed up their plan to rebuild and could have cost them Watson or Mahomes.  
 

But it looks like things might work out this way too

5 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Polian called Ralph's daughter a F$%&ING C U Next Tuesday. To a group of people. That's a little worse than "foolish".

 

I semi agree with you in that Ralph's daughter shouldnt have been around and acting as a scout to begin with. Dont let your kids be hired into lower positions if you are going to be sensitive to how they are treated. But at the point, it was too late.

I’m not giving Ralph a pass for firing Polian over name calling...sorry

[chris heff]

8 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

LOL these are not the same things.  If Gunner was a good GM I wouldn’t fire him for calling me foolish. 
 

You don’t succeed in business making those decisions as evidenced by a 17 year long drought

There’s a clear difference...but back to the discussion like you said

When Polian called Ralph’s daughter a name he was left with no choice, the same as I was left with no choice when that chef called my wife a name. Ralph’s mistake was what he did next,  one he committed often, he hired someone that he was comfortable with. In the example of my restaurant I hired new chef who turned out to be better.

7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Polian called Ralph's daughter a F$%&ING C U Next Tuesday. To a group of people. That's a little worse than "foolish".

 

I semi agree with you in that Ralph's daughter shouldnt have been around and acting as a scout to begin with. Dont let your kids be hired into lower positions if you are going to be sensitive to how they are treated. But at the point, it was too late.

If nepotism were eliminated from family owned business a whole lot more people would be unemployed. The irony is that Polian took exception to the nepotism and then years later hired his son.

[Phil The Thrill]

5 minutes ago, chris heff said:

When Polian called Ralph’s daughter a name he was left with no choice, the same as I was left with no choice when that chef called my wife a name. Ralph’s mistake was what he did next,  one he committed often, he hired someone that he was comfortable with. In the example of my restaurant I hired new chef who turned out to be better.

Well everyone has a different philosophy.  I think firing someone over name calling is bad business.

 

But to your other point - you are correct.  Outside of Donahoe, Ralph insisted on hiring people that he was familiar with - which was a disastrous result

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

In the “process” (pun intended) they ended up eating a lot of cash on his contract.

 

I will say that a huge mistake Terry made was the timing of this firing.  It’s my theory that he was by an old-time NFL consultant that you don’t fire a GM until the draft to protect your intel.  Not hiring Beane until May kind of messed up their plan to rebuild and could have cost them Watson or Mahomes.  
 

But it looks like things might work out this way too

 

Sometimes you have to eat a bad contract.  The money is pocket change for them.  But it led to a big improvement in the team and the results of the past 3 years speak for themselves.

 

It would be interesting to know if Whaley liked/would have picked either Mahomes or Watson. 

[YoloinOhio]

Just now, Doc said:

 

Sometimes you have to eat a bad contract.  The money is pocket change for them.  But it led to a big improvement in the team and the results of the past 3 years speak for themselves.

 

It would be interesting to know if Whaley liked/would have picked either Mahomes or Watson. 

Thought you were taking that elsewhere for a minute