Another Argument for Bills to Not Build a Billion $ Palace in B/Lo

[T master]

Despite the love for the game & the increase in fans in B/lo watching our team due to doing better with all the young talent Beane & company have brought in i believe the Pegs could use this information to argue that they don't want or need a new stadium in western NY . If you read the first line in this article it's a tell all for that, seeing as attendance is lower to do the stadium experience why would any team want to spend a Billion $ on a new stadium ?

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/02/08/rams-and-chargers-stadium-promises-big-breakthrough-with-4k-video/

 

Then there is the thought that the NFL doesn't really & truly care about what the fans think when it comes to decision making the only thing they care about is the $$ in this article it goes as far as saying they don't care about 2 very important pieces of the games success 1 being the fans 2 being the players, with out either of which the game wouldn't be as profitable as it is ! 

 

The 3rd & 4th paragraph in this explains a lot about what the NFL is all about . Please actually read them before coming to any conclusions ...

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/02/07/poll-shows-strong-fan-opposition-to-17-game-season/

 

If this continues to go as it has been going only the true Bills fans that have followed the team since the 90's will be in the stadium because the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium just because there is to much effort involved !!

 

Eventually if the viewership & revenues due to these things continue to head south the NFL may have to do what the WWE is doing & even the NFL to in some respects as far as they did with MNF in changing the games to a PPV type experience to off set the loss of fans actually going to the stadium .

 

Okay flame away Bills fans, I do know one thing for sure that no matter what the out come of scheduling or TV viewership Bills fans will always have their opinions & won't stop short of hanging some one like me in the square to burn me at the stake in the social media forum so have at it let the linching begin !!

[Kirby Jackson]

-The NFL ratings are up again.

-The NFL cares about revenues 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc...

- The Bills are at or near the bottom of the league in local revenues. That’s a competitive disadvantage that will become an even bigger disadvantage with the new CBA

- A new stadium is coming or a complete renovation (new stadium more likely) 

 

This really isn’t a complicated situation. You need to generate more money to compete. The Pegula’s know this. It will come in the form of a public/private partnership as most are these days. This isn’t an “if” conversation, it is a “when” conversation.

[purple haze]

You can make all the arguments and post all the articles you want to. A new stadium or a major renovation will happen; it will cost what it costs and public money, in some form, be it for the actual stadium or serious infrastructure improvements, will be a part of it.    This Is pro sports in the modern era: generate "more" money or get out of the game.  

 

The Pegula's aren't getting out of the game,  and were aware of the stadium issue when they bought the team.  They have helped build up parts of downtown, and have a lot of real estate holdings downtown.  How many more dots do you need to connect what's going to happen?

[BillsCuse]

26 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

-The NFL ratings are up again.

-The NFL cares about revenues 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc...

- The Bills are at or near the bottom of the league in local revenues. That’s a competitive disadvantage that will become an even bigger disadvantage with the new CBA

- A new stadium is coming or a complete renovation (new stadium more likely) 

 

This really isn’t a complicated situation. You need to generate more money to compete. The Pegula’s know this. It will come in the form of a public/private partnership as most are these days. This isn’t an “if” conversation, it is a “when” conversation.

The Bills are near the bottom with stadium revenues?  How is that happening if they are selling out more than other teams?  And I'm not doubting you, just wondering.  

[John in Jax]

I agree that taxpayers normally get screwed when a new stadium is demanded & built, and that the cost of actually going to game is way out of control, but one thing I will strongly disagree with is the validity of any Twitter poll, since only about 20% of the country uses Twitter, and of those, it skews to a younger group. 

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, BillsCuse said:

The Bills are near the bottom with stadium revenues?  How is that happening if they are selling out more than other teams?  And I'm not doubting you, just wondering.  

The least valuable franchise in the league: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/09/04/the-nfls-most-valuable-teams-2019-cowboys-lead-league-at-55-billion/amp/

30th in revenue:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193553/revenue-of-national-football-league-teams-in-2010/

 

They charge significantly less than other markets. The stadium doesn’t generate the other revenue streams of others, etc..

 

I PROMISE, PROMISE, PROMISE, a new stadium or complete renovation ($500M+) will be happening. This is not something that “might” happen. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[purple haze]

6 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The least valuable franchise in the league: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/09/04/the-nfls-most-valuable-teams-2019-cowboys-lead-league-at-55-billion/amp/

30th in revenue:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193553/revenue-of-national-football-league-teams-in-2010/

 

They charge significantly less than other markets. The stadium doesn’t generate the other revenue streams of others, etc..

 

I PROMISE, PROMISE, PROMISE, a new stadium or complete renovation ($500M+) will be happening. This is not something that “might” happen. 

Agree.  But if I were a betting man, I'd bet on the downtown option being what is chosen by the Pegula's.

[K-9]

35 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

-The NFL ratings are up again.

-The NFL cares about revenues 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc...

- The Bills are at or near the bottom of the league in local revenues. That’s a competitive disadvantage that will become an even bigger disadvantage with the new CBA

- A new stadium is coming or a complete renovation (new stadium more likely) 

 

This really isn’t a complicated situation. You need to generate more money to compete. The Pegula’s know this. It will come in the form of a public/private partnership as most are these days. This isn’t an “if” conversation, it is a “when” conversation.

I value your insight into this subject so maybe you can enlighten me as to how, in the absence of a large number of corporate sponsors  over and above what they’ve already tapped into and a fan base that doesn’t have nearly as much in disposable income as others, the Bills can generate large enough increases in revenues to offset their current disadvantage? Other than PSLs which is an unpopular product in these parts and higher ticket prices, how does new stadium generate revenues in and of itself?

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Agree.  But if I were a betting man, I'd bet on the downtown option being what is chosen by the Pegula's.

That’s what I’m thinking. I really trust Wawrow when it comes to this stuff and that seems to be what he believes. It’s the more likely scenario for a lot of reasons. I wouldn’t say that it’s a definite at this point.

[swimtoga]

54 minutes ago, T master said:

 

 

If this continues to go as it has been going only the true Bills fans that have followed the team since the 90's will be in the stadium because the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium just because there is to much effort involved !!

 

Ok boomer.

[Kirby Jackson]

38 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I value your insight into this subject so maybe you can enlighten me as to how, in the absence of a large number of corporate sponsors  over and above what they’ve already tapped into and a fan base that doesn’t have nearly as much in disposable income as others, the Bills can generate large enough increases in revenues to offset their current disadvantage? Other than PSLs which is an unpopular product in these parts and higher ticket prices, how does new stadium generate revenues in and of itself?

- I think you’ll see some PSL’s (but don’t think SF think Minnesota). They will be mostly in like the $500 range. There will be some higher but we aren’t talking $100k PSLs. 
 

- Additionally, they can build out around the stadium like New England. The Bills will own/control some bars and restaurants in the area and can generate revenue that way (whether directly or indirectly). They can do membership type clubs within the stadium (kind of like the Harbor Club). 

- They can create revenue generating assets. When we renegotiated our state deal here in New Orleans they basically offered us a check. What we countered with were some infrastructure assets that we could monetize. We felt that was a better long-term strategy. That’s why you see the video boards on the outside of the arena in NOLA. You are trying to create “things” to sell to sponsors.
 

- You’d also have a “clean slate” with a new stadium. New Era is a weird situation where the best amenities are not tied to the best locations. In a new stadium you can pair the best locations with the best amenities to drive revenue. Think about the “Legends Club” in Yankee Stadium (obviously with lower prices). If you want to sit 1st row behind home plate, you get an open bar, 5 star buffet, etc.. That’s better than having to pick elite amenities or elite location. You can scale it out.

 

These are just a few ways off the top of my head but there are tons and tons more. 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[purple haze]

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s what I’m thinking. I really trust Wawrow when it comes to this stuff and that seems to be what he believes. It’s the more likely scenario for a lot of reasons. I wouldn’t say that it’s a definite at this point.

Not definite, true, but the dots are hard not to connect.  I hope the Pegula's will make their announcement on the plan so folks can move past the speculation.  And I do hope that after all this time, the actual stadium design renderings are part of the announcement.

[K-9]

1 hour ago, T master said:

If this continues to go as it has been going only the true Bills fans that have followed the team since the 90's will be in the stadium because the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium just because there is to much effort involved !!

You invited a ton of derision for this paragraph. And it will have been deserved, imo.  

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

45 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The least valuable franchise in the league: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/09/04/the-nfls-most-valuable-teams-2019-cowboys-lead-league-at-55-billion/amp/

30th in revenue:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193553/revenue-of-national-football-league-teams-in-2010/

 

They charge significantly less than other markets. The stadium doesn’t generate the other revenue streams of others, etc..

 

I PROMISE, PROMISE, PROMISE, a new stadium or complete renovation ($500M+) will be happening. This is not something that “might” happen. 

 

...think the WNY economy of scale is a significant factor......our 20 person suite is $75,000 at New Era before you add in food/beverage, transportation, parking, etc.....same suite for Cowgirls or Deadskins is easily $225,000+ BEFORE PSL's....we'd be out in a nanosecond.....food/beverage runs us $1,500 per game and limo bus is $1,000 per game.....so add in another 20 grand......Falcons currently have PSL defaults tabbed up at 32 MILLION in a far more corporately strong market vs Buffalo.....so exactly how do you propose to get a new stadium done, specifically?.......take a hypothetical Lucas Oil Field new stadium at $800 mil....think NY's Big Fredo would pony up $400 mil (COUGH)?......why should Pegula match with $400 mil and no ROI?....Santa Claus?......ROI would come in the form of PSL's, increased ticket & suite prices, etc......how much of a financial hit could WNY absorb?.........

Edited February 8, 2020 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, T master said:

the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium

 

Lazy?   Try not interested in the NFL.   

 

The league has a bigger problem than the stadium issue--its how to keep younger people consuming their product.   

 

 

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, BillsCuse said:

The Bills are near the bottom with stadium revenues?  How is that happening if they are selling out more than other teams?  And I'm not doubting you, just wondering.  

 

 

These are secondary market ticket prices, but they give you an idea of the supply/demand situation:

 

https://blog-admin.tickpick.com/how-much-are-nfl-tickets/

Average Ticket Cost
NFL Team	2017	2018	2019
New England Patriots	$348	$355	$501
Chicago Bears	$186	$246	$376
Green Bay Packers	$226	$243	$243
New Orleans Saints	$160	$216	$301
Denver Broncos	$264	$196	$278
Seattle Seahawks	$223	$236	$248
Philadelphia Eagles	$199	$208	$256
Pittsburgh Steelers	$201	$195	$221
Los Angeles Chargers	$191	$157	$191
Washington Redskins	$109	$131	$167
Dallas Cowboys	$225	$141	$258
Cleveland Browns	$62	$80	$190
Oakland Raiders	$179	$145	$149
Kansas City Chiefs	$90	$102	$209
Miami Dolphins	$139	$104	$143
Detroit Lions	$117	$108	$122
Houston Texans	$123	$126	$145
Minnesota Vikings	$156	$172	$187
San Francisco 49ers	$98	$126	$178
Baltimore Ravens	$105	$100	$129
Tennessee Titans	$127	$185	$148
Atlanta Falcons	$210	$136	$170
Tampa Bay Buccaneers	$153	$151	$150
New York Jets	$75	$88	$117
Cincinnati Bengals	$70	$86	$114
Carolina Panthers	$156	$169	$131
Arizona Cardinals	$107	$82	$93
New York Giants	$155	$137	$152
Los Angeles Rams	$108	$119	$114
Jacksonville Jaguars	$61	$113	$98
Indianapolis Colts	$59	$107	$114
Buffalo Bills	$86	$63	$105

Edited February 8, 2020 by Lurker

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

37 minutes ago, purple haze said:

You can make all the arguments and post all the articles you want to. A new stadium or a major renovation will happen; it will cost what it costs and public money, in some form, be it for the actual stadium or serious infrastructure improvements, will be a part of it.    This Is pro sports in the modern era: generate "more" money or get out of the game.  

 

The Pegula's aren't getting out of the game,  and were aware of the stadium issue when they bought the team.  They have helped build up parts of downtown, and have a lot of real estate holdings downtown.  How many more dots do you need to connect what's going to happen?

Excellent post!  The hard salary cap insures that the competitive aspects of teams on the field remain reasonably close.  Revenue competitive differences come into the picture with what an owner is able or willing to spend for coaching staff, training facilities, medical staff, player support, etc.  Some owners are also cash flow strapped so that they are unable to spend as much on signing bonuses and other up front payments.  Fortunately, Pegulas are in the top one-third of owners in terms of personal wealth so some of these factors are less critical to them.  They will most likely look at things in terms of their return on investment and growing the value of their franchise.  They also have to endure the whining of fellow owners that complain about their smaller revenue take when they play on the road in Buffalo.  Make no mistake, the Pegulas are in this to make money and will do what optimizes their opportunity to make money for the long term.  Having not seen their economic analysis of the options to build new or renovate, I won't venture a guess.  The only thing that is a given is that a bunch of money (private and public) is going to be spent to enhance the profit generated by the Bills.

[Kirby Jackson]

6 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...think the WNY economy of scale is a significant factor......our 20 person suite is $75,000 at New Era before you add in food/beverage, transportation, parking, etc.....same suite for Cowgirls or Deadskins is easily $225,000+ BEFORE PSL's....we'd be out in a nanosecond.....food/beverage runs us $1,500 per game and limo bus is $1,000 per game.....so add in another 20 grand......Falcons currently have PSL defaults tabbed up at 32 MILLION in a far more corporately strong market vs Buffalo.....so exactly how do you propose to get a new stadium done, specifically?.......take a hypothetical Lucas Oil Field new stadium at $800 mil....think NY's Big Fredo would pony up $400 mil (COUGH)?......why should Pegula match with $400 mil and no ROI?....Santa Claus?......ROI would come in the form of PSL's, increased ticket & suite prices, etc......how much of a financial hit could WNY absorb?.........

Man, I’ve laid out my thoughts on here a zillion times on the topic. I really don’t feel like going through it again but I’m sure it’s in the archives somewhere. Long story short, I’m guessing about 1/2 state, 1/2 private (between team and fans). That will come in the form of concession deals, PSLs, naming rights, the Pegulas themselves. 
 

The bottom line is you can’t function like a minor league team in the NFL. You’re either going to have to get with the program or get left behind. The Bills are never going to be a top 5 revenue club but they don’t need to be the least valuable team in the NFL either.

[Lurker]

33 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

- I think you’ll see some PSL’s (but don’t think SF think Minnesota). They will be mostly in like the $500 range. There will be some higher but we aren’t talking $100k PSLs. 
 

- Additionally, they can Build out around the stadium like New England. The Bills will one/control some bars and restaurants in the area and can generate revenue that way (whether directly or indirectly). They can do membership type clubs within the stadium (kind of like the Harbor Club). 

- They can create revenue generating assets. When we renegotiated our state deal here in New Orleans they basically offered us a check. What we countered with were some infrastructure assets that we could monetize. We felt that was a better long-term strategy. That’s why you see the video boards on the outside of the arena in NOLA. You are trying to create “things” to sell to sponsors.
 

- You’d also have a “clean slate” with a new stadium. New Era is a weird situation where the best amenities are not tied to the best locations. In a new stadium you can pair the best locations with the best amenities to drive revenue. Think about the “Legends Club” in Yankee Stadium (obviously with lower prices). If you want to sit 1st row behind home plate, you get an open bar, 5 star buffet, etc.. That’s better than having to pick elite amenities or elite location. You can scale it out.

 

These are just a few ways off the top of my head but there are tons and tons more. 

 

 

 

I thought the problem the other owners have with the Bills is the amont of gate revenue THEY get to keep as the road team. 

 

All the things you mention are revenue streams that would not be shared with them--they'd stay with the Pegula's.    So, what's in it for the NFL?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Man, I’ve laid out my thoughts on here a zillion times on the topic. I really don’t feel like going through it again but I’m sure it’s in the archives somewhere. Long story short, I’m guessing about 1/2 state, 1/2 private (between team and fans). That will come in the form of concession deals, PSLs, naming rights, the Pegulas themselves. 
 

The bottom line is you can’t function like a minor league team in the NFL. You’re either going to have to get with the program or get left behind. The Bills are never going to be a top 5 revenue club but they don’t need to be the least valuable team in the NFL either.

 

.....oh...my apology......isn't that EXACTLY what I said?.......seems like you conveniently skipped over economy of scale and what the WNY market can bear.........skipping those tiny details, sounds you of the volition, "if we build it, they will come".....got it......

[atlbillsfan1975]

19 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s what I’m thinking. I really trust Wawrow when it comes to this stuff and that seems to be what he believes. It’s the more likely scenario for a lot of reasons. I wouldn’t say that it’s a definite at this point.

Talk about the crown jewel for the Pegulas. They have poured so much into the city already. Getting a new stadium built, actually in the city, would solidify them for generations as the people who rebuilt Buffalo. 
Not to mention it makes so much sense for a ton of reasons. 

Edited February 9, 2020 by atlbillsfan1975

[Kirby Jackson]

16 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

I thought the problem the other owners have with the Bills is the amont of gate revenue THEY get to keep as the road team. 

 

All the things you mention are revenue streams that would not be shared with them--they'd stay with the Pegula's.    So, what's in it for the NFL?

Well, the prices will increase as part of it. If the average ticket price in 2019 was $105, I don’t think it’s crazy to see that average at like $125. 

[Lurker]

1 minute ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

 Getting a new stadium built actually in the city would solidify them for generations as the people who rebuilt Buffalo....and still couldn't run an NHL franchise to save their lives.

 

Fixed...

[machine gun kelly]

Well, it’s already expensive enough for me to fly up from Tampa with three kids, the boys always gos to the game, and if it is a substantial increase, I probably won’t come up as much.  I’m sure I’ll want to go at least once a year, but not multiple times.  Many of us have said, they’ll probably build downtown in the first ward area, and build a bunch of different amenities down there, and model after Indy’s stadium.  I just hope the state can keep up with the infrastructure to get to and back from the stadium. We’ll find out in approximately three years or so.

[Lurker]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

Well, the prices will increase as part of it. If the average ticket price in 2019 was $105, I don’t think it’s crazy to see that average at like $125. 

 

I suppose.  But in a league generating $14 billion in revenue annually, do the Jones' and Kraft's of the world really care about getting another $500,000 or so (and $4-$5 million over 8 games) from being the road team in Buffalo?

 

It seems like all the NFL jawboning about new stadiums is just so much FUD on autopilot...

[Kirby Jackson]

29 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

.....oh...my apology......isn't that EXACTLY what I said?.......seems like you conveniently skipped over economy of scale and what the WNY market can bear.........skipping those tiny details, sounds you of the volition, "if we build it, they will come".....got it......

I wasn’t skipping over anything. When the example of other teams are used why do we go to what they charge in Dallas or NY? That’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about places like Indy, Cleveland and New Orleans. The studies have been done and the market can bear more than it currently is. Again, if you want my entire detail (including numbers associated with it) it’s all on here somewhere. I just really don’t feel like going through it again.

 

As some background (and without sounding like a know it all) I have a Master’s Degree is Sports Management and worked in pro sports for almost a decade. I worked in a situation where the team was sold twice and potentially going to be relocated. My thoughts as to what it it takes come from real world experience. I’ve been a part of the negotiations with the state, concessionaires, NBA, NBAPA, sponsors and fans.
 

I promise you that Buffalo can sustain a lot more than it currently is. With that being said, they aren’t going to build some new stadium and start charging Dallas prices. They are going to operate near the bottom of the league in revenues but the gap between them and others will be smaller. 

9 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

I suppose.  But in a league generating $14 billion in revenue annually, do the Jones' and Kraft's of the world really care about getting another $500,000 or so (and $4-$5 million over 8 games) from being the road team in Buffalo?

 

It seems like all the NFL jawboning about new stadiums is just so much FUD on autopilot...

You need to think in terms of the CBA. The Kraft’s and Jones’ of the world are going to argue for LESS of the current revenue being shared. They will argue each team should be responsible for a greater share of the pie. “Why should we subsidize the Bills of the world?” When that inevitably happens, it will be imperative that the Bills are generating more revenue to remain competitive. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[JustWinPlease]

They need a new stadium and it needs to be put downtown.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 minute ago, machine gun kelly said:

Well, it’s already expensive enough for me to fly up from Tampa with three kids, the boys always gos to the game, and if it is a substantial increase, I probably won’t come up as much.  I’m sure I’ll want to go at least once a year, but not multiple times.  Many of us have said, they’ll probably build downtown in the first ward area, and build a bunch of different amenities down there, and model after Indy’s stadium.  I just hope the state can keep up with the infrastructure to get to and back from the stadium. We’ll find out in approximately three years or so.

 

...eliminating the travel costs, can you do a comparative analysis of taking the family to a Bucs game vs a Bills game?........their stadium was built in 1998 for $168 mil, a total public finance.....New Era was upgraded in 2012 for $130 mil......so it appears neither facility has stadium debt service...........

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

13 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I wasn’t skipping over anything. When the example of other teams are used why do we go to what they charge in Dallas or NY? That’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about places like Indy, Cleveland and New Orleans. The studies have been done and the market can bear more than it currently is. Again, if you want my entire detail (including numbers associated with it) it’s all on here somewhere. I just really don’t feel like going through it again.

 

As some background (and without sounding like a know it all) I have a Master’s Degree is Sports Management and worked once pro sports for almost a decade. I worked in a situation where the team was sold twice and potentially going to be relocated. My thoughts as to what it it takes come from real world experience. I’ve been a part of the negotiations with the state, concessionaires, NBA, NBAPA, sponsors and fans.
 

I promise you that Buffalo can sustain a lot more than it currently is. With that being said, they aren’t going to build some new stadium and start charging Dallas prices. They are going to operate near the bottom of the league in revenues but the gap between them and others will be smaller. 

You need to think in terms of the CBA. The Kraft’s and Jones’ of the world are going to argue for LESS of the current revenue being shared. They will argue each team should be responsible for a greater share of the pie. “Why should we subsidize the Bills of the world?” When that inevitably happens, it will be imperative that the Bills are generating more revenue to remain competitive. 

 

...you hurt the feelings of the greedmeister Boy Danny Snyder by leaving him out.......on another note, he is an interesting perspective (?) someone posted in one of the numerous new stadium threads (apologize, but I'll have to paraphrase)......"a new stadium with higher ticket prices would attract the more affluent fan who currently stays at home to avoid the rowdy drunken fans that currently attend......that ilk would then be priced out"........hmmmm.......

[Lurker]

8 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You need to think in terms of the CBA. The Kraft’s and Jones’ of the world are going to argue for LESS of the current revenue being shared. They will argue each team should be responsible for a greater share of the pie. “Why should we subsidize the Bills of the world?” When that inevitably happens, it will be imperative that the Bills are generating more revenue to rema`

 

I think we had this 'tastes great-less filling' discussion before.    

 

Kraft and Jones may well advoocate for that position but with half the league in mid-sized cities, I can't see them carrying the day on it.     They may get to keep more of the future revenue streams (gambling), but if I'm Clark Hunt or Art Rooney II, I'm just as leary of that proposal as the Pegula's would be.

 

My take on the NFL's "New Stadium!!!   New Stadium!!"  shtict is that you can't have a few teams getting away with older, still viable stadiums like New Era if you want to con state and local government officials in your home town into ponying up for your new palace.    It's bad optics if some teams are doing perfectly fine without a billion dollar home.    How can you cry poverty that way--and twist the appropriate arms to pick up half or more of the costs?..

[WotAGuy]

2 hours ago, T master said:

 

If this continues to go as it has been going only the true Bills fans that have followed the team since the 90's will be in the stadium because the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium just because there is to much effort involved !!

I think you are talking about me, and I’m 60. If I’m the younger generation, you must be like 80. 

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...you hurt the feelings of the greedmeister Boy Danny Snyder by leaving him out.......on another note, he is an interesting perspective (?) someone posted in one of the numerous new stadium threads (apologize, but I'll have to paraphrase)......"a new stadium with higher ticket prices would attract the more affluent fan who currently stays at home to avoid the rowdy drunken fans that currently attend......that ilk would then be priced out"........hmmmm.......

I think there is certainly some of that. At least they will be more segmented. There is a certain type of buyer that currently isn’t interested in attending as it stands. The Bills will be tasked with current traditions without alienating the more affluent fan. It’s a bit of both. It will be a challenge but they have smart people that can figure that out.

[WotAGuy]

1 hour ago, purple haze said:

How many more dots do you need to connect what's going to happen?

If I’m “connecting dots” then the stadium is gonna be in Batavia. Dunkirk Don told me. 

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, Lurker said:

 

I think we had this 'tastes great-less filling' discussion before.    

 

Kraft and Jones may well advoocate for that position but with half the league in mid-sized cities, I can't see them carrying the day on it.     They may get to keep more of the future revenue streams (gambling), but if I'm Clark Hunt or Art Rooney II, I'm just as leary of that proposal as the Pegula's would be.

 

My take on the NFL's "New Stadium!!!   New Stadium!!"  shtict is that you can't have a few teams getting away with older, still viable stadiums like New Era if you want to con state and local government officials in your home town into ponying up for your new palace.    It's bad optics if some teams are doing perfectly fine without a billion dollar home.    How can you cry poverty that way--and twist the appropriate arms to pick up half or more of the costs?..

I just think there is such a precedent for it at this point. The Yankees, Mets, MSG have all benefited from public funding. I don’t know what was at the local level and what at the state level. With the Bills being the ONLY NY NFL team (the only time this is important) they will certainly ask. 

1 minute ago, WotAGuy said:

If I’m “connecting dots” then the stadium is gonna be in Batavia. Dunkirk Don told me. 

Speaking of which, I bought a bunch of land out there from him. I would like to sell it if anyone is interested???

[atlbillsfan1975]

33 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Fixed...

In time maybe that occurs too?

[Lurker]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I just think there is such a precedent for it at this point. The Yankees, Mets, MSG have all benefited from public funding. I don’t know what was at the local level and what at the state level. With the Bills being the ONLY NY NFL team (the only time this is important) they will certainly ask. 

 

Oh, no doubt, they'll ask.    And you're right, the horse left the barn long ago on demanding a public financing component to any new stadium.   

 

I'm just saying the NFL's crowning achievement over the last 100 years has been conning taxpayers into paying for billionaire's playthings.     It should have been part of the NFL100 celebration stuff we've been seeing all year...

 

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, Lurker said:

 

Oh, no doubt, they'll ask.    And you're right, the horse left the barn long ago on demanding a public financing component to any new stadium.   

 

I'm just saying the NFL's crowning achievement over the last 100 years has been conning taxpayers into paying for billionaire's playthings.     It should have been part of the NFL100 celebration stuff we've been seeing all year...

 

Oh I agree!! How about the decades of tax-exempt status? You said it perfectly “the horse left the barn long ago.” 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I think there is certainly some of that. At least they will be more segmented. There is a certain type of buyer that currently isn’t interested in attending as it stands. The Bills will be tasked with current traditions without alienating the more affluent fan. It’s a bit of both. It will be a challenge but they have smart people that can figure that out.

 

 

...there are a multitude of variables.......would the more affluent fan be willing to endure snow games in the winter versus the diehards who currently attend, assuming a segment would be part of the "priced out" contingent?......a basic proforma financial model exercise would be fairly straightforward despite assumptions to include projected revenues, reasonable debt service and ROI, etc.....the tough part (for me at least; I'm in my 44th year as a CFO) would be the market feasibility study including demographics, disposable income, etc to sustain the model long term (beyond my scope)........

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I just think there is such a precedent for it at this point. The Yankees, Mets, MSG have all benefited from public funding. I don’t know what was at the local level and what at the state level. With the Bills being the ONLY NY NFL team (the only time this is important) they will certainly ask. 

Speaking of which, I bought a bunch of land out there from him. I would like to sell it if anyone is interested???

 

....too late...I bought Don's parcel in Letchworth..............

[machine gun kelly]

19 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...eliminating the travel costs, can you do a comparative analysis of taking the family to a Bucs game vs a Bills game?........their stadium was built in 1998 for $168 mil, a total public finance.....New Era was upgraded in 2012 for $130 mil......so it appears neither facility has stadium debt service...........

 

Hey Old Time, I don’t know exactly, but the Bucs games are more expensive as I go to both every year.  The experience is so different, then again, there is really nothing like going to New Era.  Parking is more expensive, the lots are not nearly as much fun,  the concessions are more, but more diverse.  The food outside of the stadiums is like a bunch of different kinds of food, and more economical, so when I take the boys, we typically between throwing the ball around, get some food and eat before we go into the stadium.  Just like it’s miserably cold in the winter up there, it absolutely awful going to a September or first 1/2 of October.  You have to put on so much sun block, and you never stop sweating.  I gave it up after the last Bucs, AZ game with my middle son.  For a number of reasons he’s followed them since the Pitt, AZ SB.  Now we always pick a fun game in November or December.  I highly recommend the next time the Bills are in Tampa.  Most people will give you some ribbing wearing one of my Bills jerseys, but it’s mostly in good fun.

 

I hope that helps a little.  I think they play in Buffalo in two years so most likely not for 6 years, and yes, I always root for the Bills win and have done so since 1993.  Any other team and I root for the Bucs as I have my first love in Buffalo, by second is Tampa.

[Kirby Jackson]

11 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...there are a multitude of variables.......would the more affluent fan be willing to endure snow games in the winter versus the diehards who currently attend, assuming a segment would be part of the "priced out" contingent?......a basic proforma financial model exercise would be fairly straightforward despite assumptions to include projected revenues, reasonable debt service and ROI, etc.....the tough part (for me at least; I'm in my 44th year as a CFO) would be the market feasibility study including demographics, disposable income, etc to sustain the model long term (beyond my scope)........

 

....too late...I bought Don's parcel in Letchworth..............

He got you too?!? Damn it!!

 

In terms of the more affluent fan it’s a bit of a gamble. They will certainly have to cater to them at some level. It will need to be insulated (in some ways) from the weather. They will have to have amenities that appeal to the wives (which believe it or not teams suck at). I have this girl that I’m kind of seeing and she has extremely high expectations and tastes. She would never make it as it currently is (even in the clubs). There are a segment of people that aren’t coming without their wives. You’d need to bring them in.

 

They will have to expand the geography (which has been happening for a while). It will be a challenge to be able to attract the “new fan” without alienating the base. The passion is so strong IMO that the base will be there even if it’s kicking and screaming. I tend to believe they will build more with the “new fan” and gamble that the base will be there.